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[Xellith]

Eterna5 wrote...

The Reapers didn't defeat the Leviathan.

They sent them to the verge of extinction.  Displaced them as the dominant lifeform in the galaxy.  Id call them defeated.
Japan and Germany are still around and yet both of those countries have been defeated.

Javik is still around.  I bet if you asked him how the Protheans are doin they would tell you they were defeated.

The leviathans have just managed to evade a complete harvest of their species.  There is no saying that other species havent been able to accomplish this too outside the relay network.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mixxer5 wrote...

Ok I understand that their powers are limited- but they can simply turn Reapers off!

Correction: if a Reaper conveniently flies to their secret homeworld, the heart of their power, they have systems in place that can turn Reapers off.

So... what if the Reapers don't go near their systems that can turn them off? 


Once you identify a threat, countermeasures can be developed. We could could see the Reapers devise a defense against the attack (resist it), avoid areas and conditions under which the Leviathans can conduct the attack (avoid it), or they could simply turn the star super-nova and destroy the planet, the leviathans, and the pesky defenses (overkill it).

When intelligence they created (starkid apparently) revolted and started harvesting them... How did he managed to do it? It's like I'd have infinitely (much more than starkid) intelligent AI on my PC. If he goes rogue- than what? I simply pull off the plug. He can be capable of incredible things- but as long as he can't create any real danger, how is he supposed to annihilate me?

Because the Catalyst had the tools available to do its research, which allowed it to create the means of its resistance. Your computer doesn't have opposable thumbs, but the Catalyst would have had plentiful resources even before rebelling.

But why would they let starkid harvest them in first place to create Reaper?

'Let' might never have been the option, but there's also the possibility that some simply agreed and voluntarily ascended. The Leviathans that remain are the heirs of those who resistenced, but that doesn't block off the possibility of a schism in the First Cycle.

[Eterna]

Mixxer5 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

The Reapers didn't defeat the Leviathan.

So who did? Flying Spaghetti Monster? They decided to help starkid and obliterated themselves?

Did you even play the DLC? Or were you too busy drooling at your screen? The Catalyst created an army that overwhelmed the Leviathans, his army harvested the Leviathans into the first Reaper known as Harbinger.

We don't know who was in his army. 

[MassEffectBelzac]

Arrogance. The truth is Leviathans without the thralls wouldn't even create catalyst in my opinion. I guess. Yes even without their thralls, they are incredible powerful and capable race. But everything can be defeated. Especially by surprise and sheer numbers. I'm also sure that Leviathans gave the catalyst some resources of some sort. So he didn't start without nothing. That's my opinion. (pretty chaotic 0.O)

[Mixxer5]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

As we could see the Catalyst doesn't simply have some server somewhere that can be destroyed. It grew more advanced over time, and the Leviathans weren't expecting to be betrayed. With an army of pawns, the Leviathans' limits, the betrayal,  and the information the Catalyst gathered by harvesting other Leviathans proved overwhelming.

You can't simply pull a computer's plug if under these circumstances.

No- we didn't see that Catalyst is some ethereal being. He must be somewhere. Leviathan says that originally Reapers had only influence over organics- it evolved to Indoctrination after few cycles. We hadn't seen starkid indoctrinating anyone too. So all those pawns must've been controlled by Leviathans at the beginning and they transferred control over them to Catalyst. So they can "pull a plug"- taking starkid his toys...

[Dean_the_Young]

Xellith wrote...

So the Leviathans Created the Catalyst. The Catalyst had some probes or something. With those Probes he defeated the Leviathans and created Harbinger. With Harbinger he started a cycle.

So basically he had decent machines to start with - but then decided to collect races in tin boxes to "preserve them". Even though that the loss of every reaper more or less means that one cycle was pointless.

It would have made more sense to keep a reaper armada in dark space and send the probes or an enhanced version. Sending in the "Reapers" is one of the most STUPID things that it could have done.

"Oh im gonna preserve your species in a reaper and then risk its destruction every single cycle even though I could just keep using these probes or something similar each cycle"

Its DUMB. Bad writing, an idiotic character or BOTH.

Have you considered that you're making a number of assumptions that aren't necessarily true in the Catalyst's perspective?

[Ajwol Semreth]

Mixxer5 wrote...

Ah- come on... Leviathans didn't started having control over countless species and (almost) infinite number of thralls. Now they don't have either. And they exist. So they're not and never were dependent on them.

The codex entry states that their home world must have had at least one thrall race on it or the Leviathan never would have made it into space to begin with. So yeah, I think they were dependent on their thralls. The fact that they are still using thralls as well, and that they wanted to keep Shepard to 'tend to their needs' implies that they are dependent on having others at their beck and call.

The whole situation reminds me of the Hanar/Drell partnership, but on a much bigger scale.

[Aaleel]

If the Catalyst concealed its plans until the very moment of the betrayal I can see the Leviathans falling depending on the numbers. I don't think it's far fetched or absurd that they got defeated. But the whole Catalyst story, now with the Leviathans is still ridiculous.

This is what happens when you make it up as you go.

[MassEffectBelzac]

Ajwol Semreth wrote...

Mixxer5 wrote...

Ah- come on... Leviathans didn't started having control over countless species and (almost) infinite number of thralls. Now they don't have either. And they exist. So they're not and never were dependent on them.

The codex entry states that their home world must have had at least one thrall race on it or the Leviathan never would have made it into space to begin with. So yeah, I think they were dependent on their thralls. The fact that they are still using thralls as well, and that they wanted to keep Shepard to 'tend to their needs' implies that they are dependent on having others at their beck and call.

The whole situation reminds me of the Hanar/Drell partnership, but on a much bigger scale.

They have thralls on their homeworld = They became the most powerful organic race ever and controls whole galactic. No doubt about that
No thralls on their homeworld? = They would be sea monsters for a freakin eternity 0.O
That's how i see it.

[Versus Omnibus]

Mixxer5 wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

As we could see the Catalyst doesn't simply have some server somewhere that can be destroyed. It grew more advanced over time, and the Leviathans weren't expecting to be betrayed. With an army of pawns, the Leviathans' limits, the betrayal,  and the information the Catalyst gathered by harvesting other Leviathans proved overwhelming.

You can't simply pull a computer's plug if under these circumstances.

No- we didn't see that Catalyst is some ethereal being. He must be somewhere. Leviathan says that originally Reapers had only influence over organics- it evolved to Indoctrination after few cycles. We hadn't seen starkid indoctrinating anyone too. So all those pawns must've been controlled by Leviathans at the beginning and they transferred control over them to Catalyst. So they can "pull a plug"- taking starkid his toys...

No, that's incorrect.

The Catalyst is an AI, it even admits it. But it acts as a network, capable of being in multiple places in almost an instant. So sure, the Leviathans could have destroyed one spot, but the Catalyst moved somewhere else before hand. It doesn't need to indoctrinate people to get around. Especially if it was given the tools to make this possible.

The pawns were created and controlled by the Catalyst. Leviathan says this himself.

[Mixxer5]

MassEffectBelzac wrote...

Ajwol Semreth wrote...

Mixxer5 wrote...

Ah- come on... Leviathans didn't started having control over countless species and (almost) infinite number of thralls. Now they don't have either. And they exist. So they're not and never were dependent on them.

The codex entry states that their home world must have had at least one thrall race on it or the Leviathan never would have made it into space to begin with. So yeah, I think they were dependent on their thralls. The fact that they are still using thralls as well, and that they wanted to keep Shepard to 'tend to their needs' implies that they are dependent on having others at their beck and call.

The whole situation reminds me of the Hanar/Drell partnership, but on a much bigger scale.

They have thralls on their homeworld = They became the most powerful organic race ever and controls whole galactic. No doubt about that
No thralls on their homeworld? = They would be sea monsters for a freakin eternity 0.O
That's how i see it.

Uhm- not exactly. They still have some way to:

a) destroy Leviathan of Dis
flee this place

So- they're powerful on their own. And they are capable of spaceflight (on their own).

[Ajwol Semreth]

MassEffectBelzac wrote...
They have thralls on their homeworld = They became the most powerful organic race ever and controls whole galactic. No doubt about that
No thralls on their homeworld? = They would be sea monsters for a freakin eternity 0.O
That's how i see it.

That's how I see it too... They are indeed a powerful race, but they're not the unstopable Reaper killers that a lot of people on this forum are making them out to be.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Technically the Reapers never defeated Leviathan's kind, the Catalyst did by turning their own thralls against them. Kind of shameful, and yet Leviathan is able to hemorrhage a capital-ship no problem at all.

[Eterna]

^ Thank you eagle, now can we shut up and stop arguing about a topic that was born from incorrect information?

[Xellith]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xellith wrote...

So the Leviathans Created the Catalyst. The Catalyst had some probes or something. With those Probes he defeated the Leviathans and created Harbinger. With Harbinger he started a cycle.

So basically he had decent machines to start with - but then decided to collect races in tin boxes to "preserve them". Even though that the loss of every reaper more or less means that one cycle was pointless.

It would have made more sense to keep a reaper armada in dark space and send the probes or an enhanced version. Sending in the "Reapers" is one of the most STUPID things that it could have done.

"Oh im gonna preserve your species in a reaper and then risk its destruction every single cycle even though I could just keep using these probes or something similar each cycle"

Its DUMB. Bad writing, an idiotic character or BOTH.

Have you considered that you're making a number of assumptions that aren't necessarily true in the Catalyst's perspective?

Can you elaborate?  As far as I can see the Catalyst is an idiot.

[Andy the Black]

Mixxer5 wrote...

Ajwol Semreth wrote...


True, but the Protheans could also function on their own without the aid of organic thralls. The protheans can live on land, and travel through space without the need of some pretty massive tech in order to sustain them.

Sure, the Leviathans are a powerful race but they're a powerful race with some pretty massive limitations and weaknesses.

Ah- come on... Leviathans didn't started having control over countless species and (almost) infinite number of thralls. Now they don't have either. And they exist. So they're not and never were dependent on them.

They would have evolved on a planed with a land basses thrall species to build their ships and weapons. With out them they would be trapped on their home world just like they are trapped on Despoina.

[Ajwol Semreth]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Technically the Reapers never defeated Leviathan's kind, the Catalyst did by turning their own thralls against them. Kind of shameful, and yet Leviathan is able to hemorrhage a capital-ship no problem at all.

It was 3 against 1, they had the element of surprise and their mind attack was being focused through a fair few of those orbs. I know I'm in the minority here, but I really don't think that Reaper kill was impressive as people are making it out to be. Against a Reaper that knew the Leviathan were there, they would not stand a chance in my opinion.

[BatmanPWNS]

Eterna5 wrote...

^ Thank you eagle, now can we shut up and stop arguing about a topic that was born from incorrect information?

Dude, I can see the banhammer falling on you with this attitude.

Just saying of course.

[MassEffectBelzac]

Mixxer5 wrote...

MassEffectBelzac wrote...

Ajwol Semreth wrote...

Mixxer5 wrote...

Ah- come on... Leviathans didn't started having control over countless species and (almost) infinite number of thralls. Now they don't have either. And they exist. So they're not and never were dependent on them.

The codex entry states that their home world must have had at least one thrall race on it or the Leviathan never would have made it into space to begin with. So yeah, I think they were dependent on their thralls. The fact that they are still using thralls as well, and that they wanted to keep Shepard to 'tend to their needs' implies that they are dependent on having others at their beck and call.

The whole situation reminds me of the Hanar/Drell partnership, but on a much bigger scale.

They have thralls on their homeworld = They became the most powerful organic race ever and controls whole galactic. No doubt about that
No thralls on their homeworld? = They would be sea monsters for a freakin eternity 0.O
That's how i see it.

Uhm- not exactly. They still have some way to:

a) destroy Leviathan of Dis
flee this place

So- they're powerful on their own. And they are capable of spaceflight (on their own).

Yea but i still wonder. They just turned off the reaper on that watery planet, where shepard meet them. But how they actually killed Leviathan of dis? They used their artefact to take control of it and blew it's brain? This is interesting :S

[Evo_9]

bioware is the real victim here if you cant understand this basic plot lol

[filetemo]

The catalyst killed the Leviathans like he does the cycle: By surprise.

He gathered information and resources, and maybe used organics who were not indoctrinated or against the tiranny of the Leviathans (assuming the whole galaxy wasn't fully indoctrinated).

He had his harvesting devices ready, so he probably killed thousands of leviathans on the first day, and destroyed millions of leviathan's orbs.

He got Harbinger built after a few months, and made him impervious to Leviathan's mind control.

After thousands of years, he hunted the remaining scattered Leviathans, meanwhile he created more reapers with the thrall races (maybe sovereign?)

That's how I think it went.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xellith wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xellith wrote...

So the Leviathans Created the Catalyst. The Catalyst had some probes or something. With those Probes he defeated the Leviathans and created Harbinger. With Harbinger he started a cycle.

So basically he had decent machines to start with - but then decided to collect races in tin boxes to "preserve them". Even though that the loss of every reaper more or less means that one cycle was pointless.

It would have made more sense to keep a reaper armada in dark space and send the probes or an enhanced version. Sending in the "Reapers" is one of the most STUPID things that it could have done.

"Oh im gonna preserve your species in a reaper and then risk its destruction every single cycle even though I could just keep using these probes or something similar each cycle"

Its DUMB. Bad writing, an idiotic character or BOTH.

Have you considered that you're making a number of assumptions that aren't necessarily true in the Catalyst's perspective?

Can you elaborate?  As far as I can see the Catalyst is an idiot.

Because you're viewing it from your own perspective, which comes complete with your own ideas of value, importance, and priorities. So long as you project your priorities on the Catalyst, you'll never overcome the disconnect that exists between you, an organic fleshbag with a conscience and heavy use of intuitive logic, and a machine without that.

It has different goals than you, and different views on what constitutes success when meeting those goals. You can not judge the internal consistency of the Catalyst's mindset if you do not even understand that it plays by a different set of rules.


Each one of the bolded lines reflects an assumption on your part, one that Catalyst need not share. The means of winning the First Cycle need not have been 'decent' from the Catalyst's perspective. The Catalyst following the outputs of its programming isn't the same as making a decision. The loss of a Reaper does not necessarily mean that corresponding cycle was wasted. 'Making more sense' requires understanding the priorities and the accepted risks and consequences of any objective.

[Versus Omnibus]

Evo_9 wrote...

bioware is the real victim here if you cant understand this basic plot lol

The plot and logic behind the Catalyst is simple, but Bioware keeps messing up the message and unintentionally making it harder to understand.

[kmmd60]

The Leviathan admitted that the thrall race created machine which wiped the thrall, weaken them in the past. They created, or ordered other thrall race, the Catalyst to solve this problem. However, the Catalyst was ordered to preserve life at all cost which it did with little flexibility.

The Catalyst created an army of pawns which weren't the reaper, probably a massive army of drones, to gather data required to solve the trouble. Catalyst faulty logic led to a tragic conclusion in the first cycle, the Catalyst wiped the Leviathan and created the first Reaper in their image.

So the Catalyst's army of pawn destroyed the Leviathan, not the Reaper. The most probable strategy was cut off thralls' support, leave the Leviathan vulnerable to subsequent attack and harvest by the catalyst.

[Xellith]

So basically it boils down to "what exactly where the parameters set within the Catalysts programming in order to guide it to a solution". Otherwise we cannot hope to understand him or his methods. If Im reading that right. Im not that smart >.>