116 réponses à ce sujet

[Versus Omnibus]

Xellith wrote...

So basically it boils down to "what exactly where the parameters set within the Catalysts programming in order to guide it to a solution". Otherwise we cannot hope to understand him or his methods. If Im reading that right. Im not that smart >.>

His purpose and methods are not that hard to understand, but the way Bioware explains it is just... wrong.

[filetemo]

Maybe the Catalyst used an army of thresher maws to destroy the leviathans.

[Versus Omnibus]

filetemo wrote...

Maybe the Catalyst used an army of thresher maws to destroy the leviathans.

That is a joke?

[Mixxer5]

Ajwol Semreth wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Technically the Reapers never defeated Leviathan's kind, the Catalyst did by turning their own thralls against them. Kind of shameful, and yet Leviathan is able to hemorrhage a capital-ship no problem at all.

It was 3 against 1, they had the element of surprise and their mind attack was being focused through a fair few of those orbs. I know I'm in the minority here, but I really don't think that Reaper kill was impressive as people are making it out to be. Against a Reaper that knew the Leviathan were there, they would not stand a chance in my opinion.

Ok- but again- Protheans fought with Reapers few hundred years. Sure it wasn't equal fight, but still it took some time. They were taken by much bigger surprise because they wouldn't expect that such threat even could exist. They were cut off from themselves- Catalyst (oh sorry- he let Reapers work for him. Nevermind that he sits on Citadel all the time) turned off Relay network (if someone doesn't know it- Relays were created by Reapers). Protheans had... I'll be generous- 45k years after discovering relay network (probably much less but never mind). They took Reapers much time before they were annihilated. 

Now let's take a look at Leviathans. I've no idea how much time they had- but taking control over whole galaxy, evolvig to enslave "lesser species" (btw- if they were "first" who did they enslaved on their homeworld? Some kind of monkeys?) and so on must've taken plenty of time. Let's give them... 500k years before first harvesting. So now Catalyst makes attacks them by surprise wiping off... Ok- it can be even their capital planet. Whole galaxy is under Leviathans control (and their thralls). 

So now two options:
1)Catalyst somehow "assumes direct control" over every thrall species at once. I've no idea how he's supposed to do it, but let's give him such power. He should wipe every single Leviathan at once. Something like Jedi purge in star wars- but Leviathans are dependent on thralls so they are annihilated. Few moments ago (or hours...) I've seen 3 of them! That's much more than 0! So this option is impossible.

2) Starkid have just obliterated his first planet he's very happy- almost like, well... kid. Leviathans gather every species that are under their control and crush Catalyst forces at once. Reapers aren't created because there's no one to create them left. Well- this option isn't true either. I've seen whole galaxy map overrun by Reapers some time ago...

So I'm not saying that Catalyst can't win with Leviathans (although his chances are miserably small...). I say that if this story is supposed to be true- they should no longer exist...

BTW- I've just noticed: Sovereign told us that Reapers created relays to steer our technological advance. Leviathan says that relays were created to increase our technological advance- leading us to destruction nevertheless. 

[filetemo]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

filetemo wrote...

Maybe the Catalyst used an army of thresher maws to destroy the leviathans.

That is a joke?

everything is possible

[Auralius Carolus]

Quite honestly, I don't buy the Leviathan's story. The creature seemed quite content with living in a near-eternity of seclusion and even stated that the Reapers were still serving their purpose, in spite of being rebels.

If you ask me, they, too, are interested in what the "intelligence" is searching for. They likely see the Reapers as a new form of super-slave, ready for the taking, given the right conditions; and their acceleration of social evolution means that the Leviathans get to consider the new pawns created by the Reapers behavior.

Given the Leviathan's considerable power over both biological and mechanical forms, (they are clearly superior to the Reapers in technology, being able to re-write their code), I suspect the Leviathans will emerge as the real enemy here.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xellith wrote...

So basically it boils down to "what exactly where the parameters set within the Catalysts programming in order to guide it to a solution". Otherwise we cannot hope to understand him or his methods. If Im reading that right. Im not that smart >.>

That's pretty much it. As a machine, the external logic is always a reflection of what the internal logic is. It's a bit sad, but given the amount of anthromorphization that Bioware gave the Geth and EDI in ME3, the Catalyst is the most computer-like synthetic in the ME universe.

Computers, as a rule, do what you tell them to, not what you mean them to. People like that tend to only be as good as their guidance, and that's where the Leviathans failed: the obvious fumble up was the 'find a solution no matter the cost.' When we say that (or when it was used in Mass Effect by the Spectres/Cerberus), there are understood implicit limits and caveats. For Cerberus, for example, an unacceptable cost for a mission would be one that destroys the super-objective of Human dominance. A lot of these implicit understandings are assumed by culture: when we make a goal such as 'lower the number of deaths caused by X', we do so with an understanding that 'deaths by Y instead' is not an acceptable solution.

Computers don't have those cultural assumptions built in, unless you build them. They'll do what you tell them to, which makes them very effective and very scary at the same time. A machine will consider 'deaths by Y instead' a valid solution to the problem of X unless you tell it otherwise.


This is where the Catalyst gets misunderstood by a lot of people. The goal of the Catalyst isn't to keep everyone alive: it's to keep everyone from being killed by a specific threat. In machine logic, there's nothing illogical about killing them via other means.

[skiadopsendow]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Quite honestly, I don't buy the Leviathan's story. The creature seemed quite content with living in a near-eternity of seclusion and even stated that the Reapers were still serving their purpose, in spite of being rebels.

If you ask me, they, too, are interested in what the "intelligence" is searching for. They likely see the Reapers as a new form of super-slave, ready for the taking, given the right conditions; and their acceleration of social evolution means that the Leviathans get to consider the new pawns created by the Reapers behavior.

Given the Leviathan's considerable power over both biological and mechanical forms, (they are clearly superior to the Reapers in technology, being able to re-write their code), I suspect the Leviathans will emerge as the real enemy here.

I thought the same, it's so interesting how the leviathan acts when shep asks him about the crucible, i bet he didnt tell everything he knows, that's sure

[filetemo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xellith wrote...

So basically it boils down to "what exactly where the parameters set within the Catalysts programming in order to guide it to a solution". Otherwise we cannot hope to understand him or his methods. If Im reading that right. Im not that smart >.>

That's pretty much it. As a machine, the external logic is always a reflection of what the internal logic is. It's a bit sad, but given the amount of anthromorphization that Bioware gave the Geth and EDI in ME3, the Catalyst is the most computer-like synthetic in the ME universe.

Computers, as a rule, do what you tell them to, not what you mean them to. People like that tend to only be as good as their guidance, and that's where the Leviathans failed: the obvious fumble up was the 'find a solution no matter the cost.' When we say that (or when it was used in Mass Effect by the Spectres/Cerberus), there are understood implicit limits and caveats. For Cerberus, for example, an unacceptable cost for a mission would be one that destroys the super-objective of Human dominance. A lot of these implicit understandings are assumed by culture: when we make a goal such as 'lower the number of deaths caused by X', we do so with an understanding that 'deaths by Y instead' is not an acceptable solution.

Computers don't have those cultural assumptions built in, unless you build them. They'll do what you tell them to, which makes them very effective and very scary at the same time. A machine will consider 'deaths by Y instead' a valid solution to the problem of X unless you tell it otherwise.


This is where the Catalyst gets misunderstood by a lot of people. The goal of the Catalyst isn't to keep everyone alive: it's to keep everyone from being killed by a specific threat. In machine logic, there's nothing illogical about killing them via other means.

This is a great explanation, the problem is we are assuming a billion year old ultraadvanced AI is still ruled by the same parameters our actual programming languages have. Our actual computers are dumb anduse machine cold logic.

Does the most advanced synthetic intelligence ever built in the universe still use "cold machine logic?" That's depressing

[Mixxer5]

filetemo wrote...
He had his harvesting devices ready, so he probably killed thousands of leviathans on the first day, and destroyed millions of leviathan's orbs.

Right- globes. Thanks for reminding me about them Personally I think that they're more recent (some 5 years or something ) innovations but let's say that Leviathans used them at pinnacle of their power. Problem is- they're maikng every attempt of defeating Leviathans doomed to fail.

So- let's say I'm Leviathan and I'm sitting comfortable in my house at the bottom of the ocean. I don't have to do anything- I've plenty of thralls, right (they're somehow able to live 5000m underwater. It's much more plausible than Catalyst words during ending)? Suddenly! My beautiful underwater house is burning (5000m underwater, etc )! Apparently thralls have somehow managed to start a revolt! I'm terrified. We- Leviathans- are completely dependent on thralls. Our empire will fall without them. And even worse- my house 5000m underwater will burn!

But then I suddenly recall teleshopping advertisement (Ironically- "Leviathan" is network of shops in my country ). "Controlglobe in every Leviathan house!"- it says. "Are Your thralls constantly revolting? Are Your skills of controlling them weakening? Buy Controlglobe and sleep easily (or whatever Leviathans do instead of sleeping). Controlglobe is capable of taking control of every species- from Husk (what the hell is Husk?) to Reaper (what the hell is Reaper?). If You don't know what Reaper is wait few millions of years- if You're still alive You'll know for sure. (they're working now- so Catalyst didn't found a way to prevent them from working)


So I runned (or rather thought- they're telepathic, right?) to my living room- to Controlglobe. And I taken control over those noisy and annoying (revolting) organics. Now they're rebuilding my house- it have a hole in a roof and water is pouring to my sleeproom. It's almost as annoying as this (shortlived) revolt was.

Oh- and in TV Leviathan reporter was talking about arrestment of rogue AI responsible for this revolt. Apparently it was shouting about being "vanguard of our destruction", and something about knowing some "Harbringer" guy. 


Now seriously- if Leviathans really had so much of those globes, than every organic army trying to defeat them is under their control in no time. Unless someone have better explanation...

[Ticonderoga117]

How? Because the writer said so. it doesn't matter if that same writer gave them awesome powers over the Reapers or their foot soldiers. The writer willed it to happen and it did. Does it make sense? No. Do they care? No. Seriously, common sense has completely evaporated from this series.

[mauro2222]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xellith wrote...

So the Leviathans Created the Catalyst. The Catalyst had some probes or something. With those Probes he defeated the Leviathans and created Harbinger. With Harbinger he started a cycle.

So basically he had decent machines to start with - but then decided to collect races in tin boxes to "preserve them". Even though that the loss of every reaper more or less means that one cycle was pointless.

It would have made more sense to keep a reaper armada in dark space and send the probes or an enhanced version. Sending in the "Reapers" is one of the most STUPID things that it could have done.

"Oh im gonna preserve your species in a reaper and then risk its destruction every single cycle even though I could just keep using these probes or something similar each cycle"

Its DUMB. Bad writing, an idiotic character or BOTH.

Have you considered that you're making a number of assumptions that aren't necessarily true in the Catalyst's perspective?

Can you elaborate?  As far as I can see the Catalyst is an idiot.

Because you're viewing it from your own perspective, which comes complete with your own ideas of value, importance, and priorities. So long as you project your priorities on the Catalyst, you'll never overcome the disconnect that exists between you, an organic fleshbag with a conscience and heavy use of intuitive logic, and a machine without that.

It has different goals than you, and different views on what constitutes success when meeting those goals. You can not judge the internal consistency of the Catalyst's mindset if you do not even understand that it plays by a different set of rules.


Each one of the bolded lines reflects an assumption on your part, one that Catalyst need not share. The means of winning the First Cycle need not have been 'decent' from the Catalyst's perspective. The Catalyst following the outputs of its programming isn't the same as making a decision. The loss of a Reaper does not necessarily mean that corresponding cycle was wasted. 'Making more sense' requires understanding the priorities and the accepted risks and consequences of any objective.

So... it doesn't understand what preservation means. Got it.

And there's a problem in your explanation, Artificial intelligence =/= computer-VI

Modifié par mauro2222, 30 août 2012 - 12:55 .

[Norrax]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

I suspect the Leviathans will emerge as the real enemy here.

sure! lets swap gigantic cyber space squids controlled by starbrat, for 
gigantic   lazy a** space squids. serioulsy thats lazy writing at its lazyiest 

[Mixxer5]

 Well- one more thing that's so stupid that everything else is irrelevant. Leviathan says that lesser species were creating synthetics that destroyed them (lesser species I mean). So they created synthetic to find solution to save their dumb thralls from destroying themselves.
...

...


Seriously?! It's as stupid as Catalysts 

[nevar00]

How did the Catalyst force the Leviathans into the processing chamber or whatever to turn them into Harbinger? A 'free candy' sign? (Legitimate question, I haven't played Leviathan)

[Mixxer5]

Eh... Didn't Bioware already created "prime" race that caused their own downfall? I'm talking about Rakatans from KOTOR. How is it possible that this story had almost no flaws and they made ME stupid as hell?

[ediskrad327]

i would assume the Leviathans were Arrogant and the Reapers had Numbers

[Mixxer5]

nevar00 wrote...

How did the Catalyst force the Leviathans into the processing chamber or whatever to turn them into Harbinger? A 'free candy' sign? (Legitimate question, I haven't played Leviathan)

LOL. I didn't see that coming. But You've a point- it doesn't look possible to indoctrinate Leviathans. And they're "little" too big to force them. Maybe he's cutting them to pieces and throwing them to pipes like those we've seen in ME2 suicide mission (it reminds me using blender...)

[Ajwol Semreth]

Mixxer5 wrote...

How is it possible that this story had almost no flaws and they made ME stupid as hell?

That's purely subjective, I actually quite like Mass Effect's story. Sure, there are issues with it, but there are issues with any trilogy or long piece of fiction. 

[Mixxer5]

@up: I like ME1 and ME2- I've problems with ME3 only

I also meant that I never heard anyone complaining with KOTOR story and ME3 story is being complained all the time

[Ajwol Semreth]

Mixxer5 wrote...

@up: I like ME1 and ME2- I've problems with ME3 only

I also meant that I never heard anyone complaining with KOTOR story and ME3 story is being complained all the time

That's a fair point. Was not on the Bioware forums during the KotOR days so can't comment on what they were like back then. There are people who dislike the story though , Star Wars fanatics and purists for example. Just have to know where to look I guess.

Modifié par Ajwol Semreth, 30 août 2012 - 01:35 .

[Boneyaards]

Because the thralls of the Leviathans were turned against them and caught them off guard, allowing for enough Leviathans to be killed in order to create the first Reaper. From there on in, that Reaper probably killed a few more while the rest went into hiding. 

Did anyone even listen to the dialogue in this DLC?

[Tom-N7-]

The Leviathan needed their minions to sruvive, after the reapers took control of them they were pretty much screwed...

[Dean_the_Young]

filetemo wrote...

This is a great explanation, the problem is we are assuming a billion year old ultraadvanced AI is still ruled by the same parameters our actual programming languages have. Our actual computers are dumb anduse machine cold logic.

Does the most advanced synthetic intelligence ever built in the universe still use "cold machine logic?" That's depressing

It's not exactly a surprise, since all the other synthetics in the game also are ruled by machine logic. The writers more heavily anthromorphized them, but it's still there: EDI was most obvious when she had her programming blocks still in place, while the Geth being software-controlled was explicit in ME2 with the Heretic Virus.

Synthetics having machine logic is intrensic to what they are: machines with coding.

[A0170]

Andy the Black wrote...

Levi said the Catalyst created an amy of pawns to gather data from across the galaxy for it's solution. Then they took the Leviathans by surprise. The codex said that the Leviathans were reliant on there thrulls to built there ships, without "lesser" orcanics the Leviathans would have been vulnerable from a kicking from behind.

So in a way, the Leviathans got Order 66'd.