Aller au contenu

Photo

Building Up For Conventional Victory?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
106 réponses à ce sujet

#26
Jadebaby

Jadebaby
  • Members
  • 13 229 messages

ClockworkSpectre wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

ClockworkSpectre wrote...

Conventional Victory would destroy the story even more than it already was by the crap endings. I just doesn't make any sense and I don't know why people want it so much. If the Protheans, who were far more advanced and widespread than the current cycle's races couldn't defeat them conventionally, then how does it make sense a less advanced and smaller for would be able to. Even if the Leviathans joined the fight, they are extremely few in number, and even with their powers I would imagine they would be overpowered by the Reapers numbers.


Because the Protheans superiority was also their undoing. In that the Reapers could predict their moves more easily. Javik mentions this.

Also, because the Protheans were took completely by surprise, the Reapers had the Citadel before they even knew what hit them. And EVEN THEN, it still took the Reapers centuries to get rid of them all, and ultimately, they failed, in Javik's existence.


And it still took the reapers 400 years to wipe them out.  It takes the reapers less than a year to almost cripple the council races.


Thessia and Palavan, yes. Sur'Kesh didn't seem so bad.

But that was only their homeworlds, big difference between destroying their homeworlds and destroying their entire race.

How long did the Prothean's capital take before it fell? In fact, if we know that they were an "empire" then they probably considered the Citadel to be their homeworld.

#27
Zkyire

Zkyire
  • Members
  • 3 449 messages

Pitznik wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.


No it wouldn't, because you would still have the choice to use the crucible, should you not buy the dlc, or should you want a Shepard playthrough to use it.

Decision to build and use the Crucible is based on conventional victory being impossible. So adding such possibility makes the decision wrong, no matter if you do it or not. When the possibility to make peace between Quarians and Geth exists, every other choice is made suboptimal.

It is not going to happen.


Not necessarily impossible, but costly to the point that they may aswell use the Crucible to save the billions upon billions of more people that would die during a continuation of the war.

#28
Alex_Dur4and

Alex_Dur4and
  • Members
  • 841 messages
My EMS is very close to 20 000. I strongly doubt that it will mean anything... When I got those extra 400 EMS after Leviathan, I was "ecstatic"!!

No... seriously... Thanks for the Dominate skill and those 2 new guns.

#29
Anacronian Stryx

Anacronian Stryx
  • Members
  • 3 129 messages
Leviathan DLC makes a conventional victory seem more and more likely - The Leviathans have a pulse weapon(or ability) that totally cripples a Sovereign class reaper in one hit - so study that, find a way to mimic that ability and mass produce that effect, Hell if the Leviathans wont cooperate attack them instead, find out how they make the pulse.

Shepard calls Hackett.
"Hackett are you still building that big construct we don't know what does or if it will even help against the reapers?"
Hackett :"Yes"
Shepard :"Well i found something concrete that i have seen work".
Hackett :"I'm gonna order the entire fleet there".

#30
CaptainCommander

CaptainCommander
  • Members
  • 304 messages
I'm just saying there is no point in adding more things to get EMS if its only 4000 and people are gonna sit with double that for no reason as it doesn't change. So maybe as a way to keep MP alive and thus the game. Is a slow conversion to a conventional victory. Which does keep in with the ending because you can still use the crucible if you don't overwhelm them or maybe you'll find a new scientist that can alter the crucible to be a giant EMP akin to the death of Saren on the Reapers.
To be honest we can't predict Bioware anymore so anything is possible and to the people who say that Bioware said the ending is done. They also said we'd have a multitude of choices and that the Rachni would play a big part and neither of those things happened.

#31
blacqout

blacqout
  • Members
  • 1 464 messages

CaptainCommander wrote...
Leviathan included 11 new war assets and what's the point of adding them in 


I'm sure i'm not the only person who enjoys reading the asset descriptions. 

Besides, everything Shepard does in Mass Effect 3 is to build a force capable of delivering the crucible. This is measured in EMS... so if any DLC did not contain extra assets, it would almost seem like a waste of Shepard's time.

Game mechanics. How do they work.

#32
blacqout

blacqout
  • Members
  • 1 464 messages

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Leviathan DLC makes a conventional victory seem more and more likely - The Leviathans have a pulse weapon(or ability) that totally cripples a Sovereign class reaper in one hit - so study that, find a way to mimic that ability and mass produce that effect, Hell if the Leviathans wont cooperate attack them instead, find out how they make the pulse.

Shepard calls Hackett.
"Hackett are you still building that big construct we don't know what does or if it will even help against the reapers?"
Hackett :"Yes"
Shepard :"Well i found something concrete that i have seen work".
Hackett :"I'm gonna order the entire fleet there".


The remaining Leviathans are not vast enough in number to engage the Reapers. This is demonstrated in the DLC, so i suggest you play it again while paying attention.

#33
GhostShadow115

GhostShadow115
  • Members
  • 575 messages

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.


Let's put it this way and please bear with me for just a minute.:

Yes Conventional victory 'would' make the Crucible plotline pointless, BUT lets say the Crucible wouldn't have worked in the first place as there was so many unknows around it. What then?

Of course you can say "But it did work so your point has no relevance." And you would be right. But it's just something to think about.

#34
CptData

CptData
  • Members
  • 8 665 messages

Pitznik wrote...

They stated quite clearly they are done with the endings.

Which may refer to the basic three endings: BW won't enhance them any further.
However, that's not said about the fourth ending. It provides at least a chance to get altered if you buy all those DLCs.


Alex_Dur4and wrote...

My EMS is very close to 20 000. I strongly doubt that it will mean anything... When I got those extra 400 EMS after Leviathan, I was "ecstatic"!!

No... seriously... Thanks for the Dominate skill and those 2 new guns.

I believe EMS is not the only value that determines how endings look like. BW easily could add different and new prerequesites needed to unlock the "absolute perfect ending" - while your EMS is only needed to set the point when those special requirements kick in.

#35
Pitznik

Pitznik
  • Members
  • 2 838 messages

GhostShadow115 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.


Let's put it this way and please bear with me for just a minute.:

Yes Conventional victory 'would' make the Crucible plotline pointless, BUT lets say the Crucible wouldn't have worked in the first place as there was so many unknows around it. What then?

Of course you can say "But it did work so your point has no relevance." And you would be right. But it's just something to think about.

We would die then. Can't see your point. This game is about Crucible as the last and only chance. To drop it would require rewriting all of the plot.

#36
ediskrad327

ediskrad327
  • Members
  • 4 031 messages
if a conventional Victory was possible the Reapers would have been defeated long ago

#37
Cheesesack

Cheesesack
  • Members
  • 152 messages
I don't think a 'conventional victory' would break the plot of the game at all (what little, coherant 'plot' we have left anyway). The Crucible is started right at the beginning when everyone, even Shepard, believes that it's the only real hope they have. They say several times 'there's no way to win this conventionally'.

However, that's before any of the characters have any idea about what's actually out there for them to use against the reapers. No one thinks it's possible to broker peace between the quarians and the geth and secure the full cooperation of each, no one has the foggiest idea that Leviathans with the power to kill Reapers exist, no one knows (including us) what other stuff might be gained from other DLCs. Perhaps advanced Reaper tech from the stuff on Omega. Who knows? Leviathan kinda came out of nowhere (as in, no one was really expecting it) and delivered something which, on it's own, makes the idea of a conventional victory feasible. Imagine what other random stuff Bioware could come up with if they want to.

As for it invalidating the Cruicible plot, from an in-game perspective, that's also doesn't make sense. Imagine everyone knew about the Leviathan and all the other stuff. They're hardly going to go "Hey Shepard, we have the plans for a weapon that could win us the war here, but we're not going to build it because we completely trust in your ability to reason with million-year old monstrosities from the depths of the ocean, and we also think you can negotiate a peace between two species which have been at war for 300 years with no formal diplomatic training". Of course, regardless of how likely a conventional victory might seem, they're going to build the Crucible anyway. Even if a conventional victory is seen as a possibility, it would still be a slim possibility and they'd want to have a back-up plan.

I agree with the sentiment that if enough DLC comes out with enough new war assets, you should be able to turn the 'refuse' ending into a 'conventional victory' ending. It would require you to have done literally everything; get all the war assets and secure the help of all the races. it could even function like the Quarian-Geth conflict in as much as you have to have played the other games (plus all the ME3 DLC) to achieve it at all.

It doesn't invalidate the other endings. Are the 'bad endings' (as in, the ones you get when you have low EMS) invalidated by the fact that you can get better ones by having a higher EMS? Of course not, I can't see anyone arguing that they 'shouldn't be there' because better ones are attainable. Some people won't attain those better ones. Similarly, having an ending that doesn't involve pandering to some dumb AI and still lets you win doesn't invalidate the other ones. It would just be a higher-teir ending that requires more skill to achieve. I'd say it fits much better with the story than the existing endings; it would be the ultimate 'your decisions matter' ending since it would require you to have made decisions throughout the game, not just increase some arbitrary number.

All in all, I have no idea if Bioware would do this. I think it's a no-brainer; it expands the existing endings and gives people the 'suck it StarChild' ending they actually wanted without invalidating or replacing the existing endings. For people saying that it would render all other endings meaningless, just look at the precedants arleady set. We have the best solution for the quarian-geth conflict that 'invalidates' the others yet I don't see people whining because it's hard to achieve. We also have the secret, 'best' ending where Shepard lives but only if you pick destroy. By that logic, there's already a 'best' ending so adding another 'best' ending changes nothing.

Good day.

Modifié par Cheesesack, 30 août 2012 - 12:21 .


#38
Jadebaby

Jadebaby
  • Members
  • 13 229 messages

Pitznik wrote...

GhostShadow115 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.


Let's put it this way and please bear with me for just a minute.:

Yes Conventional victory 'would' make the Crucible plotline pointless, BUT lets say the Crucible wouldn't have worked in the first place as there was so many unknows around it. What then?

Of course you can say "But it did work so your point has no relevance." And you would be right. But it's just something to think about.

We would die then. Can't see your point. This game is about Crucible as the last and only chance. To drop it would require rewriting all of the plot.


No it wouldn't, not if it was a trap. Which, judging by the fact that the Leviathans know nothing about it AND the fact all previous cycle's crucibles were corrupted by indoctrination. It seems rather likely it is a trap of some sort.

#39
CptData

CptData
  • Members
  • 8 665 messages

Pitznik wrote...

We would die then. Can't see your point. This game is about Crucible as the last and only chance. To drop it would require rewriting all of the plot.

Not really. The Crucible also could be part of manipulating Shepard (or more precisely: all races in any past cycles and the current one as well). Do we know who created the original Crucible plans?

The three choices are a last attempt of the Reapers to manipulate Shepard - mostly to pick "Control" or "Synthesis" to save their sorry ass. "Destruction" is available too, but starbrat tries to make it looking bad. Shooting that guy or refusing those options will lead to Reaper victory in the current cycle - which at least gives me the idea someone tries to manipulate you, the player.

BW could decide to improve the fourth ending more and more showing the Reapers miscalculated ... or something.
Whatever. I say, the fourth ending could be improved and as long as BW tries to keep up that idea of some sort by granting us additional war assets and adding minor changes to the endings, they'll sell DLCs. Regardless if they intend to add a better refusal ending or not in the end.

#40
GhostShadow115

GhostShadow115
  • Members
  • 575 messages

Pitznik wrote...

GhostShadow115 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.


Let's put it this way and please bear with me for just a minute.:

Yes Conventional victory 'would' make the Crucible plotline pointless, BUT lets say the Crucible wouldn't have worked in the first place as there was so many unknows around it. What then?

Of course you can say "But it did work so your point has no relevance." And you would be right. But it's just something to think about.

We would die then. Can't see your point. This game is about Crucible as the last and only chance. To drop it would require rewriting all of the plot.


I always saw the Crucible as something that could or couldn't work. As a gamble. Nothing suggested that it would work or if it's even able to ever work.
I look at the Crucible as one way to victory and not "The only way of victory."

But atleast you answered my question and showed me your pespective on it. Cheers.

Modifié par GhostShadow115, 30 août 2012 - 01:18 .


#41
ShepnTali

ShepnTali
  • Members
  • 4 535 messages
Bioware has denied an IT payoff. They've denied anything new occuring after Shepard's breath. But to this point, I'm not aware of a single denial of a possible conventional victory (aside from in game gloom and doom). It may mean very little, but there's something for you to hold onto.

#42
GhostShadow115

GhostShadow115
  • Members
  • 575 messages

Modifié par GhostShadow115, 30 août 2012 - 01:17 .


#43
Brovikk Rasputin

Brovikk Rasputin
  • Members
  • 3 825 messages
I sure don't hope so.That'd be lame.

#44
Pitznik

Pitznik
  • Members
  • 2 838 messages

GhostShadow115 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

GhostShadow115 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.


Let's put it this way and please bear with me for just a minute.:

Yes Conventional victory 'would' make the Crucible plotline pointless, BUT lets say the Crucible wouldn't have worked in the first place as there was so many unknows around it. What then?

Of course you can say "But it did work so your point has no relevance." And you would be right. But it's just something to think about.

We would die then. Can't see your point. This game is about Crucible as the last and only chance. To drop it would require rewriting all of the plot.


I always saw the Crucible as something that could or couldn't work. As a gamble. Nothing suggested that it would work or if it's even able to ever work.
I look at the Crucible as one way to victory and not "The only way of victory."

But atleast you answered my question and showed me your pespective on it. Cheers.

It is both, actually. A gamble, which is the only way to victory. Look how much it was bet on it - resources, whole Earth operation. If it was just a gamble it could be plan B at best. Putting so much into something we barely know anything about works only as the last hope, because it is pretty much insane. It is a shoddy plot device, and the inevitability of defeat is the only thing that makes it (barely) work.

#45
10K

10K
  • Members
  • 3 234 messages
I actually was thinking about this upon finishing Leviathan DLC and looking at my war assets. It's over 11,000. All these war assets and nothing for them to do. Let's hope BW capitalize upon this idea, because that would be great.

#46
Aloren

Aloren
  • Members
  • 297 messages

Pitznik wrote...
Decision to build and use the Crucible is based on conventional victory being impossible. So adding such possibility makes the decision wrong, no matter if you do it or not. When the possibility to make peace between Quarians and Geth exists, every other choice is made suboptimal.

It is not going to happen.


Not everyone could save the quarians and the geth, yet they still enjoyed the arc. If they add a conventional victory that requires something like 10000 EMS, or 6000 + some key assets, the crucible would still be the most realistic choice.If a conventional victory is supposed to be imossible or almost impossible, it should be very hard to reach for the players...and it should require multiplayer or a way to replay N7 missions to increase the readiness % in story mode.
The 4000EMS we need to get the best ending now is just ridiculous.

Modifié par Aloren, 30 août 2012 - 01:35 .


#47
xlI ReFLeX lIx

xlI ReFLeX lIx
  • Members
  • 1 383 messages

Pitznik wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.


No it wouldn't, because you would still have the choice to use the crucible, should you not buy the dlc, or should you want a Shepard playthrough to use it.

Decision to build and use the Crucible is based on conventional victory being impossible. So adding such possibility makes the decision wrong, no matter if you do it or not. When the possibility to make peace between Quarians and Geth exists, every other choice is made suboptimal.

It is not going to happen.


No, because Shepard has no idea what the Crucible is or what it does till the very end. Conventional victory means heavy casualties, so even if conventional victory IS possible, the Crusible can make victory a lot simpler. If I'm at war and want to kill someone, my friend says, you CAN run up and kill him in a fist fight, or I can give you a gun and you can end it right now, you might concider taking the gun. That's what the Crucible is! It would be up to you if you want to use the Crucible and save people, or tell the Catalyst to shove it and have a conventional victory with casualties.

#48
ph34r-X

ph34r-X
  • Members
  • 157 messages
Honestly. I'd like to see the catalyst show incredible fear when Shepard tells him. "We have evolved and synthetics will archive understanding on their own without your help. We don't need your solution. By the catalyst showing fear, you then realize it does have understanding of emotion and do realize it is possible for understanding to be archived, at that moment. When that happens, Mass Effect will be truly awesome.

#49
ZajoE38

ZajoE38
  • Members
  • 667 messages
There is no conventional victory. Ask those hundreds of fallen advanced civilizations who fought the Reapers if you don't believe :))

#50
xlI ReFLeX lIx

xlI ReFLeX lIx
  • Members
  • 1 383 messages

ZajoE38 wrote...

There is no conventional victory. Ask those hundreds of fallen advanced civilizations who fought the Reapers if you don't believe :))


They didn't have a united galaxy and the Leviathans.