106 réponses à ce sujet

[razzy1319]

Thought about this for a moment today and looked back to Fallout New Vegas. Their DLCs had an underlying plot leading up to the last DLC which changed the endings.

So what could they be saying with the DLC we already know about?

People debate upon the reputation of the Reapers as dictated by Sovereign, They are infinite and unknowable. In short they are saying they are INVINCIBLE. But Leviathan contradicts this. We may hate this fact but it could play into the over arching plot of the DLCs. The Reapers are a known quantity and they are knowable, so much so that we even know those that created them.

So what could the next two DLCs share that could lead up to a "conventional/refuse" ending?

Could Omega DLC reveal more about the Crucible? There were rumors before that Omega was the Prothean Crucible maybe there is some truth to that.

Could the recently dug up info about a Citadel DLC reveal more about the Catalyst? A chance to disable it or fix its logic circuits would be nice.

Again, this doesnt mean a changing the ending. It just adds to it. Its been done before by Bethesda.

[Kataphrut94]

Fixers0 wrote...

Any conventional victory is better then any victory involving the Crucible.

Why? Wouldn't conventional victory suffer the most catastrophic losses? With the crucible, we have the ability to end the war with clear-cut casualties (Destroy), no casualties (Control) or something which actually improves the galaxy (Synthesis). Judging by the hammering the allied forces have been taking in this war, the slimmest chance of conventional victory occuring would still see entire armies decimated and entire planets harvested as casualties.

The Reapers were meant to be this all powerful galaxy-harvesting force for destruction who have been doing this cycle for millions of years and consider us to be completely beneath them. The game delivers on that sentiment nicely, it would just be incongruous for us to suddenly pull out a blinding win at the final hour, especially when our armies are supposed to have been thoroughly losing up to that point.

[Pitznik]

Cheesesack wrote...

I think it's needs re-stating. Such an ending and DLC arc wouldn't re-write the plot of the game. It does not invalidate the Crucible, either from a gameplay or a story perspective.

Story-line wise, the Crucible is going to be built in any event simply because it's a way to possibly defeat the Reapers. Even if there was, like, a 75% that we could beat the Reapers in open combat (which it wouldn't be since a so called 'conventional victory' ending would require massive investment and skill to achieve), it would still make sense for the races of the galaxy to construct the Crucible. You can never have too many back up plans or alternatives when the entire galaxy is at stake. Besides, for most of the game, it would seem to everyone, Shepard included, that conventional victory was impossible. It would only be through achieving the near-impossible (eg. securing the alliance between quarians and geth) and through the uncovery of unexpected, previously unknown allies and technology (eg the Leviathans) that it would become an option. It would still be close, and in the end, it would all come down to that one call Shepard has to make at the end. Whether to take the easy-way out and set off the Crucible, but pay the price of an entire race and/or the mass relays, or, based on what he/she has seen in the final battle, hold off and not make such a massive sacrifice when the war can be won another way. It would be a gamble. We've seen with the current refusal ending what happend when it fails, when Shepard makes the call but we aren't strong enough. But what if, with future DLC, Shepard makes the call and it pays off?

Operation to deploy the Crucible uses all available military strength we can afford. All of it. It is not a plan B, this is betting everything on one thing. In case it doesn't work all the engaged forces would be crippled. This is not even a proper setup to start conbventional warfare - this operation is about the Crucible, about letting it dock, not about destroying as many Reapers as possible. Having conventional victory out of that would be idiotic and invalidating whole plot of ME3. Not mentioning the fact conventional victory would take HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

Cheesesack wrote...

In case you forgot, that was listed as a suicide mission. The entire point of the game was that Shepard was quite possibly going to his/her death. But there was the ability and option to do the 'impossible' and survive, with everyone else living as well. It's not a big jump to use the same premise in a 'conventional victory' ending for ME3. Just raise the stakes, make it actually hard to achieve unlike ME2 where by simply playing through the game, you got everything you needed to get everyone through easily. For ME3, make people buy the DLC, make them hunt down every last war asset, make them have to make the right choices that forge tentative alliances, make them have to have played past games (ok, maybe not ME1 for those playing on PS3, and maybe not multiplayer because again, everyone doesn't have access to it).

In case you forgot the impossible thing in ME3 is "beating the Reapers", not "beating the Reapers conventionally". If you willingly throw away the only thing that lets you win, you can't expect to win - you needed Reaper IFF in ME2, you need the Crucible in ME3.

[insomniak9]

razzy1319 wrote...

Thought about this for a moment today and looked back to Fallout New Vegas. Their DLCs had an underlying plot leading up to the last DLC which changed the endings.

So what could they be saying with the DLC we already know about?

People debate upon the reputation of the Reapers as dictated by Sovereign, They are infinite and unknowable. In short they are saying they are INVINCIBLE. But Leviathan contradicts this. We may hate this fact but it could play into the over arching plot of the DLCs. The Reapers are a known quantity and they are knowable, so much so that we even know those that created them.

So what could the next two DLCs share that could lead up to a "conventional/refuse" ending?

Could Omega DLC reveal more about the Crucible? There were rumors before that Omega was the Prothean Crucible maybe there is some truth to that.

Could the recently dug up info about a Citadel DLC reveal more about the Catalyst? A chance to disable it or fix its logic circuits would be nice.

Again, this doesnt mean a changing the ending. It just adds to it. Its been done before by Bethesda.

Or if we're taking Bethesda as an example, how about Broken Steel? 

Also I don't think it's a coincidence that Omega is shaped like the Crucible. I'm surprised Shepard didn't notice that.

Hey why is Omega showing up in my War Room... no Ma'am, that's the Crucible, apparently.
O rly? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

[ThaDPG]

ediskrad327 wrote...

if a conventional Victory was possible the Reapers would have been defeated long ago

The reapers also never faced a united galaxy before, with synthetics, and the Leiviathans backing them up.  And if SP DLC that adds EMS keeps getting added, the possibility of an eventual conventional victory is there.

[FOX216BC]

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.

Well actually the "Crucible plotline pointless" part allready happend without a conventional victory..

[SeptimusMagistos]

insomniak9 wrote...

Also I don't think it's a coincidence that Omega is shaped like the Crucible. I'm surprised Shepard didn't notice that.

That's just how space stations are shaped.

[zsom]

Not. Going. To. Happen.

[insomniak9]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

Also I don't think it's a coincidence that Omega is shaped like the Crucible. I'm surprised Shepard didn't notice that.

That's just how space stations are shaped.

Coincidence?

How many Crucibles do you think might have been semi-constructed, then left to float as these Space Stations?

Maybe the whole point of the Crucible(s) is to leave behind a massive structure capable of supporting life?

You've got to remember the Codex is being written from an in-game perspective; yes Omega is a space station, and the Protheans tried to mine it, but they might've been trying to mine it because they recognised that it looked a helluva lot like the crazy Crucible they were trying to build!

[fr33stylez]

Conventional Victory might be the new IT.

I'm sorry, I hated the Crucible plotline as much as anyone else, but adding more nonsensical crap on top of a nonsensical storyline just to make you feel better doesn't fix anything. The plot was established from the beginning that we cannot win conventionally; whether this was the right direction to take or not is irrelevant. This point was emphasized through characters (Hackett) and the progress of the galaxy against the Reapers (Palaven, Thessia, entire galaxy attacked by Reapers by Priority Earth).

To simply add this conventional victory at the end in contradiction to the storyline is simply stooping down to Bioware's level poor storytelling and basically strips you of any ground to criticize Bioware's plot direction in the first place. Ignoring all this, Bioware hasn't even come out publicly to address anything in this whole debacle, with the exception of the EC where they added 'Refusal' as a glorified Game Over screen. So why people think they're just going re-write the game after already releasing the EC escapes me.

It's not gonna happen.

[CaptainCommander]

fr33stylez wrote...

Conventional Victory might be the new IT.

I'm sorry, I hated the Crucible plotline as much as anyone else, but adding more nonsensical crap on top of a nonsensical storyline just to make you feel better doesn't fix anything. The plot was established from the beginning that we cannot win conventionally; whether this was the right direction to take or not is irrelevant. This point was emphasized through characters (Hackett) and the progress of the galaxy against the Reapers (Palaven, Thessia, entire galaxy attacked by Reapers by Priority Earth).

To simply add this conventional victory at the end in contradiction to the storyline is simply stooping down to Bioware's level poor storytelling and basically strips you of any ground to criticize Bioware's plot direction in the first place. Ignoring all this, Bioware hasn't even come out publicly to address anything in this whole debacle, with the exception of the EC where they added 'Refusal' as a glorified Game Over screen. So why people think they're just going re-write the game after already releasing the EC escapes me.

It's not gonna happen.

Coventional victory isn't a new idea like the Crucible though. From ME1 we have seen that Reapers can die! Sovereign, Leviathan of Dis. In ME2 we had a freaking Derelict Reaper as well, not to mention the destruction of the Human-Reaper and the Collector Ship. Its not some new concept. Reapers have been hard to kill but never this completely indestructable force as everyone thinks it is in ME3. Conventional victory was possible. The Galaxy was never united, no other cycle had killed as many Reapers hence why they hit Earth first. They saw humans as a threat and felt vunerable. Even Leviathan says so. The problem is that they changed direction half way through ME3 and tried to pull an M. Night Shamalamalinglong but no one likes his movies anymore. And if you look back at the original Dark Energy ending where you had the choice to destroy the Reapers and try save the galaxy or become a Reaper to save the galaxy is BRILLIANT. 

[sr2josh]

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.

The Crucible rendered much of ME3 and the previous games pointless.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Conventional victory is perfectly viable. Quarians+Geth working together = discovering a way to disable or weaken reaper shields = the edge needed to make conventional victory plausible. A small logically beliavable deus ex machina win button.

[skate4tacos96]

SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...

Conventional victory is perfectly viable. Quarians+Geth working together = discovering a way to disable or weaken reaper shields = the edge needed to make conventional victory plausible. A small logically beliavable deus ex machina win button.

Woah. That's a fantastic point!

[skate4tacos96]

I just can't fathom how you people believe a conventional victory to be unrealistic. Shepard destroyed a friggin' Collector BASE, that was also being controlled by HARBINGER HIMSELF with just ONE ship and only 12 CREW MEMBERS... from the INSIDE! I think it's way more plausible to win a conventional war against the Reapers than to destroy an entire base/army with only 12 people. Oh and I forgot to mention that Shepard also killed a Reaper with JUST THE WEAPONS HE USUALLY CARRIES! So what was it that you were saying was unrealistic?

Modifié par skate4tacos96, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:53 .

[Seival]

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.

+1

Modifié par Seival, 07 janvier 2013 - 01:52 .

[Jadebaby]

wow holy necro batman...

Just reminds me how long I've been fighting for this lol..

[Keatstwo]

Yeah, no.

[Jadebaby]

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.

+1

Now that it's been some months later and i've settled down a bit, I can tackle this.

The crucible plotline leading to a dead end (aka a Reaper trap) would be more thematically fitting than using it in the literalist interpretation of the endings. Therefore the crucible plot line would still exist but as a Reaper trap. Then you must find an alternate means of defeating the Reapers.

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.

+1

So?  The Crucible is already an asspulled contrivance.

[skate4tacos96]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.

+1

So?  The Crucible is already an asspulled contrivance.

I agree Steelcan. The whole plot involving the Crucible is far-fetched. 

[Seival]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.

+1

Now that it's been some months later and i've settled down a bit, I can tackle this.

The crucible plotline leading to a dead end (aka a Reaper trap) would be more thematically fitting than using it in the literalist interpretation of the endings. Therefore the crucible plot line would still exist but as a Reaper trap. Then you must find an alternate means of defeating the Reapers.

That would be too primitive, and as a result will make the entire Crucible plotline pointless.

Game already showed much more effective dirty tactics Reapers are able to use:
(1) Invite some high-ranking millitary and politicians for negotiations, indoctrinate them, and release.
(2) Convince some group of people they are able to find a conventional way to control the Reapers. Force them to study Reaper tech. Indoctrinate them, and then observe how that group will start fighting the rest of galactic civilization without any further influence.

...Reapers already have enough tricks in their disposal. No need to add more to repeat what they already have. And BioWare did the right thing implementing Crucible their way.

[StoneSwords]

Seival wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.

+1

Now that it's been some months later and i've settled down a bit, I can tackle this.

The crucible plotline leading to a dead end (aka a Reaper trap) would be more thematically fitting than using it in the literalist interpretation of the endings. Therefore the crucible plot line would still exist but as a Reaper trap. Then you must find an alternate means of defeating the Reapers.

That would be too primitive, and as a result will make the entire Crucible plotline pointless.

Game already showed much more effective dirty tactics Reapers are able to use:
(1) Invite some high-ranking millitary and politicians for negotiations, indoctrinate them, and release.
(2) Convince some group of people they are able to find a conventional way to control the Reapers. Force them to study Reaper tech. Indoctrinate them, and then observe how that group will start fighting the rest of galactic civilization without any further influence.

...Reapers already have enough tricks in their disposal. No need to add more to repeat what they already have. And BioWare did the right thing implementing Crucible their way.

I think the point everyone is trying to make is that there were much more effective ways they could have used the crucible plot wise, than what BW pulled out their a**es, such as either make it a reaper trap, like Jade mentioned, or maybe make it just disable Reaper sheilds and kinetic barriers, leaving them wide open for all the organic fleets to shoot them down, making a conventional victory a viable way to end the trilogy.

[Jadebaby]

Seival wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Conventional victory would make the whole Crucible plotline pointless. It is not going to happen.

+1

Now that it's been some months later and i've settled down a bit, I can tackle this.

The crucible plotline leading to a dead end (aka a Reaper trap) would be more thematically fitting than using it in the literalist interpretation of the endings. Therefore the crucible plot line would still exist but as a Reaper trap. Then you must find an alternate means of defeating the Reapers.

That would be too primitive, and as a result will make the entire Crucible plotline pointless.

Game already showed much more effective dirty tactics Reapers are able to use:
(1) Invite some high-ranking millitary and politicians for negotiations, indoctrinate them, and release.
(2) Convince some group of people they are able to find a conventional way to control the Reapers. Force them to study Reaper tech. Indoctrinate them, and then observe how that group will start fighting the rest of galactic civilization without any further influence.

...Reapers already have enough tricks in their disposal. No need to add more to repeat what they already have. And BioWare did the right thing implementing Crucible their way.

No, but there is. Shepard and crew are too informed of Reaper tactics so there's no way they are going to fall for those tactis you just talked about.

Aka, the crucible trap. The best thing about this trap is that they think it was technology completely seperate from Reaper influence, which isn't true.

[The Geth Spectre]

Sadly very sadly there won't be anymore DLC on ending. All I wanted was a reunion ,but no.