6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Redbelle wrote...

Question: Are you basing your opinion on the ending of mass effect as it currently stands, i.e. the ECDLC. Or as it was before the ECDLC?

I think its important to differentiate as the non ECDLC painted a picture of galaxy wide devastation, by implication and previously established lore, regardless of what ending you chose.

When BW learned of what they had done, as the fans painted a very convincing argument that the galaxy had just been smoked and everyone near Earth was now potentially facing starvation, they stepped up and rectified the percived implications of the player actions by converting previous scenes into ones that acknowledged its own history and resulted in npcs being given the chance to tug once more at our heartstrings.

The two endings may have similar flaws but between them is a statement from a writer on the team who had this to say

"For me, Anderson’s goodbye is where it ended. The stuff with the
Catalyst just… You have to understand. Casey is really smart and really
analytical. And the problem is that when he’s not checked, he will
assume that other people are like him, and will really appreciate an
almost completely unemotional intellectual ending. I didn’t hate it, but
I didn’t love it."


It is this unemotional vs emotional, connect with your player and keep them believing in the world that developer make for us that they got right with DA:O. From start to finish, as a self contained game it worked brilliantly as it always came back to defeating the darkspawn.

ME may have gone for synth vs orgs. But thats a message and a story I've heard numbnerous times. The best narrative of this theme in recent time probably came from battlestar galactica as their creations struggled to come to terms as to their place in the universe through faith, governance, self defence etc.

EC

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great that EC assures us that, yay, we didn't kill the galaxy.  But that still leaves the job half-finished for a lot of people.

Shepard's personal journey is left on a very unsatisfying note unless you actually wanted Shepard to die.  What about for players, who wanted their Shepards to live? The ones who already passed through fire and darkness, and just wanted to get the job done and go home?   The ones who have someone waiting for them to come home, who have accumulated a number of friends and loved ones, people Shepard still has to live for?  Those players' "closure" begins and ends with a pile of rubble and one breath.  Exactly like the original ending.

Conrad Verner's little side mission demonstrated that a willingness to sacrifice one's self does not have to be demonstrated by the actual death of that character. The act itself is enough.  The willingness speaks for itself.

Modifié par iakus, 06 septembre 2012 - 05:51 .

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Question: Are you basing your opinion on the ending of mass effect as it currently stands, i.e. the ECDLC. Or as it was before the ECDLC?

I think its important to differentiate as the non ECDLC painted a picture of galaxy wide devastation, by implication and previously established lore, regardless of what ending you chose.

When BW learned of what they had done, as the fans painted a very convincing argument that the galaxy had just been smoked and everyone near Earth was now potentially facing starvation, they stepped up and rectified the percived implications of the player actions by converting previous scenes into ones that acknowledged its own history and resulted in npcs being given the chance to tug once more at our heartstrings.

The two endings may have similar flaws but between them is a statement from a writer on the team who had this to say

"For me, Anderson’s goodbye is where it ended. The stuff with the
Catalyst just… You have to understand. Casey is really smart and really
analytical. And the problem is that when he’s not checked, he will
assume that other people are like him, and will really appreciate an
almost completely unemotional intellectual ending. I didn’t hate it, but
I didn’t love it."


It is this unemotional vs emotional, connect with your player and keep them believing in the world that developer make for us that they got right with DA:O. From start to finish, as a self contained game it worked brilliantly as it always came back to defeating the darkspawn.

ME may have gone for synth vs orgs. But thats a message and a story I've heard numbnerous times. The best narrative of this theme in recent time probably came from battlestar galactica as their creations struggled to come to terms as to their place in the universe through faith, governance, self defence etc.

EC

I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great that EC assures us that, yay, we didn't kill the galaxy.  But that still leaves the job half-finished for a lot of people.

Shepard's personal journey is left on a very unsatisfying note unless you actually wanted Shepard to die.  What about for players, who wanted their Shepards to live? The ones who already passed through fire and darkness, and just wanted to get the job done and go home?   The ones who have someone waiting for them to come home, who have accumulated a number of friends and loved ones, people Shepard still has to live for?  Those players' "closure" begins and ends with a pile of rubble and one breath.  Exactly like the original ending.

Conrad Verner's little side mission demonstrated that a willingness to sacrifice one's self does not have to be demonstrated by the actual death of that character. The act itself is enough.  The willingness speaks for itself.

Yes, and how many times is that enough and in how many ways must it be accomplished.  Shepard repeatedly dances with death, dies once, gives up reputation, a life, some parts of sanity, and nothing is every enough.  And I don't believe that creative people cannot offer some way to have the hero live and end Shepard's story.  It's just some idea that is also getting old that the only way to move on and create something new is to kill off the hero. 

[Redbelle]

Sing it loud

[3DandBeyond]

alleyd wrote...

Hi all the kind people who commented on my Bowie protest stuff earlier. this time I'm feeling a little Pinky Floydy and I'ma little bit......

Uncomfortably Husked

Hello Is there anybody out there? Can anybody help me?
I'm about to be husked
Come on now, stop the s-hit going down
I can't face the pain, just want to be free again

Relax, getting anxious makes it worse
Nanites in my blood
Oh god this s-hit really hurts

Can't take the pain, My life's receding
I shouldn't have come here to Horizon
Nanites flow through me like waves
My Lips move
Death's rictus on my face

My skin is burning in a fever
My hands are swelling like 2 balloons
Now the nanites are in my brain
I can't explain, I cannot understand
I am no longer  a man
I know I'm f-u-cked, I'm uncomfortably Husked

They said, I would feel a little pin ******
There would be no more war. And I would never again feel sick
I can't stand up, My body isn't working good
I'm a puppet in this show. My will is not my own.


Can't take the pain, My life's receding
I shouldn't have come here to Horizon
Nanites flow through me like waves
My Lips move
Death's rictus on my face

My skin is burning in a fever
My hands are swelling like 2 balloons
Now the nanites are in my brain
I can't explain, I cannot understand
I am no longer  a man
I know I'm f-u-cked, I'm uncomfortably Husked 

Ok, now dang it I can't stop thinking about "Wish You Were Here" which really applies on its own.

Honest to God, thinking back on the Wish You Were Here lyrics, it's like they used the song as an outline for the end of Shepard.


And did they get you to trade

Your heroes for ghosts?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Great job Alleyd -- loved it.

And for D

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
A walk on part in a war
For a lead role in a cage?

How I wish, how I wish you were here
We're just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl
Year after year
Running over the same old ground
What have we found?
The same old fears
Wish you were here

[3DandBeyond]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Great job Alleyd -- loved it.

And for D

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
A walk on part in a war
For a lead role in a cage?

How I wish, how I wish you were here
We're just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl
Year after year
Running over the same old ground
What have we found?
The same old fears
Wish you were here

So very appropriate.  I will never look at my Shepard without thinking of that.  It is so fitting, even the fish bowl.

And Alleyd, have not had a chance to listen as yet.  I have a lot of catching up to do, but I will get there.

[Ozida]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if it's possible to reach BioWare via Facebook or Twitter? I am just curious if there are any other steps we could take to bring our point to their attention besides BSN?

P.S. Great songs, Alleyd, thanks for sharing them with us!

Modifié par Ozida, 06 septembre 2012 - 10:02 .

[robertthebard]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Yes, and how many times is that enough and in how many ways must it be accomplished.  Shepard repeatedly dances with death, dies once, gives up reputation, a life, some parts of sanity, and nothing is every enough.  And I don't believe that creative people cannot offer some way to have the hero live and end Shepard's story.  It's just some idea that is also getting old that the only way to move on and create something new is to kill off the hero. 

Or, they're still feeling the burn from over in the DA forums.  Warden alive, not part of the story, and every other day it's Where's my Warden, am I going to get to play my Warden again?  etc etc etc.  Hawke can ride off into the sunset, and there was a big topic about what DA 3 needed, and the first thing on the list?  Hawke.  This after everyone knows that they are going for a different protagonist every time.  A not dead protagonist that isn't part of the story in BioWare games for sure is bad news.  The community can't handle it, for some reason.

[3DandBeyond]

Ozida wrote...

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if it's possible to reach BioWare via Facebook or Twitter? I am just curious if there are any other steps we could take to bring our point to their attention besides BSN?

P.S. Great songs, Alleyd, thanks for sharing them with us!

They are on twitter-under their names.

[3DandBeyond]

robertthebard wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Yes, and how many times is that enough and in how many ways must it be accomplished.  Shepard repeatedly dances with death, dies once, gives up reputation, a life, some parts of sanity, and nothing is every enough.  And I don't believe that creative people cannot offer some way to have the hero live and end Shepard's story.  It's just some idea that is also getting old that the only way to move on and create something new is to kill off the hero. 

Or, they're still feeling the burn from over in the DA forums.  Warden alive, not part of the story, and every other day it's Where's my Warden, am I going to get to play my Warden again?  etc etc etc.  Hawke can ride off into the sunset, and there was a big topic about what DA 3 needed, and the first thing on the list?  Hawke.  This after everyone knows that they are going for a different protagonist every time.  A not dead protagonist that isn't part of the story in BioWare games for sure is bad news.  The community can't handle it, for some reason.

It just seems that if you keep doing the same thing and getting the same results, at some point you might want to re-evaluate what you've been doing, 'cause it ain't workin'.  Don't get me wrong, I can fully buy into stories with dead protagonists for a cause.  But, not in a story that always pushed the other message-that the hero would come out alive.  And, not in video games for the reason of "just because".  It just says something and I really don't want to go there, because I've said it, Sci Fi writers all over the place have said it, literary types have said it all before.


I look at it like this-if the hero dies pushing someone out from in front of a train, I get that.  But, if the hero dies so that the enemy can live in peace, that doesn't  make me happy.

[obZen DF]

3DandBeyond wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Yes, and how many times is that enough and in how many ways must it be accomplished.  Shepard repeatedly dances with death, dies once, gives up reputation, a life, some parts of sanity, and nothing is every enough.  And I don't believe that creative people cannot offer some way to have the hero live and end Shepard's story.  It's just some idea that is also getting old that the only way to move on and create something new is to kill off the hero. 

Or, they're still feeling the burn from over in the DA forums.  Warden alive, not part of the story, and every other day it's Where's my Warden, am I going to get to play my Warden again?  etc etc etc.  Hawke can ride off into the sunset, and there was a big topic about what DA 3 needed, and the first thing on the list?  Hawke.  This after everyone knows that they are going for a different protagonist every time.  A not dead protagonist that isn't part of the story in BioWare games for sure is bad news.  The community can't handle it, for some reason.

It just seems that if you keep doing the same thing and getting the same results, at some point you might want to re-evaluate what you've been doing, 'cause it ain't workin'.  Don't get me wrong, I can fully buy into stories with dead protagonists for a cause.  But, not in a story that always pushed the other message-that the hero would come out alive.  And, not in video games for the reason of "just because".  It just says something and I really don't want to go there, because I've said it, Sci Fi writers all over the place have said it, literary types have said it all before.


I look at it like this-if the hero dies pushing someone out from in front of a train, I get that.  But, if the hero dies so that the enemy can live in peace, that doesn't  make me happy.

Killing off your hero in a story or any other medium only works when it fits into the story/narrative. One good example is Red Dead Redemption. [RDR Spoilers ahead]


[It struck me that poor John was killed in cold blood, but he struggled with violence, revenge, and protecting his family. It was quite clear that one day, he would be exhausted and empty. That he couln't do anything but give in; his life couldn't go on like that.]

[Spoilers over]


Now THAT worked. It fit perfectly. To me, that was art. I almost cried.
There was closure in the form of an epilogue. It was all there. ME didn't have all that, as you said in your previous post: it's quite the opposite. We knew Shepard would make it through (that was before the ending, before we knew anything, like war assets that don't matter) and then he's dead...or so we think until we have high enough EMS. That just doesn't fit within the narrative.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with Shepard dying, as long as it fits. When I first shot the tube and saw Shepard getting obliterated, I cried. My poor Shepard going through all that, and then that major explosion wich obliterates him.... I thought I would get an ending cinematic wich would justify my sacrifice, that if would fit! 
The moment the next cutscene started, everything went down to hell. The epic ending cinematic I expected became horror.  But 1 minute after my Shepard 'died', I saw that weird grasping breath scene, and my emotions made a 180 degree turn. WHAT??!!! The narrative just fell flat on it's face.

Modifié par obZen DF, 06 septembre 2012 - 10:38 .

[Lunch Box1912]

3DandBeyond wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Great job Alleyd -- loved it.

And for D

So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?

Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
A walk on part in a war
For a lead role in a cage?

How I wish, how I wish you were here
We're just two lost souls
Swimming in a fish bowl
Year after year
Running over the same old ground
What have we found?
The same old fears
Wish you were here

So very appropriate.  I will never look at my Shepard without thinking of that.  It is so fitting, even the fish bowl.

And Alleyd, have not had a chance to listen as yet.  I have a lot of catching up to do, but I will get there.

Do you think Roger Waters is a Mass Effect fan?  Imagine a trubute show by Roger Waters to Mass effect with the music of Pink Floyed. I'd buy a ticket, heck people still flock to go see the wall over and over again.

[Kel Riever]

The Wall was actually good.

[Lunch Box1912]

Yeah the first time around. It's like Kiss farewell tour it never ends

[3DandBeyond]

Well, this is a great discussion but a bit off track-my fault probably.

Just a reminder here.

I think many of us are just asking BW to please take another look at what people loved about ME. You created something pretty special here and it sets a bar for other companies in that it kind of fulfills a promise of what video games can be. Not just linear stories that are like movies with shooting, but it's like being in the story yourself and making the decisions.

Sure, the decisions were always a bit limited, but of course even you have stated the enormity of it all; having to take into account all these decisions along the way. So, the decisions were never quite as limited as we might think.

I truly wish you could remember the things people said and hoped for and loved about the games along the way-but that's kind of insulting. I think you do remember. Endless youtube videos showing the Shepard's people created and the cool conversations Shepard had with other characters and the romances and all that. I also want you to remember the first time you saw it all put together-playing ME1 and getting to the end and Shepard rising up from the rubble and telling the council off. And then, finishing the suicide mission and walking past the crew in ME2-the subtle looks of appreciation that they gave Shepard were amazing. And then, telling TIM off. I'm just saying that this was what we hoped for in ME3-that feeling that we got after finishing those games. It was this "hell yeah" feeling. That's absent for a great many of us in ME3 and we really do just want you to maybe take a look and see if you can find it in your hearts and in your budget and all to reconsider this. Please.

[Lunch Box1912]

Sorry about that 3DandBeyond

[Lunch Box1912]

short attention sp........

[3DandBeyond]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

short attention sp........

I agree, about what I don't know but I generally agree. 

No it was fine.  I went off on a tangent.  I did find Wish You Were Here to be kind of eerie.

But, I did just want to remind all that this is just an open request to BW.

[Lunch Box1912]

Journey WOOO!

[RenegonSQ]

Stop spamming this thread, I would hate to see a thread of this magnitude get closed because of stupid spam.

[3DandBeyond]

RenegonSQ wrote...

Stop spamming this thread, I would hate to see a thread of this magnitude get closed because of stupid spam.

Yes, an important reminder that we all should stay on topic.

If I had my real wish it would have been an ending that didn't rely on choices but that featured natural outcomes of what you did and were in the game, but I'm not asking for that here since that would be a major rewrite.

I'm just remembering that there were a lot of tribute videos that spoke to the heroic aspect of the game-that Shepard wasn't this King or a Superhero in a cape type, but Shepard was like an everyman (or woman).  Shepard was the common person tasked with doing superhero things as him/herself.  Shepard wasn't asked to change who s/he was but was repeatedly tasked with being authentically Shepard, the Shepard that each of us customized to be the kind of hero we thought s/he should be.  I do truly wish BW could see how wonderful we think that is and that a great many of us would like to see Shepard rewarded for becoming that hero and selling games.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 07 septembre 2012 - 04:01 .

[Iakus]

ALl I really want is one ending I can feel good about reaching. Just one. It would most likely be the Super-High EMS Destroy ending. All it really has to do is show us the Shepard equivalent of the Normandy takeoff scene. Just show us Shepard's going to be okay. One breath isn't enough.

It wouldn't change anything that actually happens, just give a little more, you know clarity and closure. The very thing EC was supposed to give us.