Aller au contenu

Photo

One Last Plea - Do the Right Thing


  • Ce sujet est fermé Ce sujet est fermé
6432 réponses à ce sujet

#2826
D24O

D24O
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

Hmm, perhaps it's an old dead relic vs. a live dead relic.  You decide which is which-(hint: I'm one of them).

I fully support any and all DLC after I get my way (I'm appealing to all those that say I'm selfish). I want what I want and I want it now.  Or, at least at some point before I am in the Dinosaur DLC.

Hey, new idea.  How about a contest on the BSN, Bioware.  Best fan ever gets a walk on role in your DLC.  Hint: I'm sure I wouldn't be in the running but I'd make a great Dinosaur.

Seriously now--I really was joking though not so funny, I think many who have posted here would have a lot more expressed interest for all DLC if they liked the endings or felt really satisfied with them.  I do support most DLC but I just don't have any enthusiasm for it as things stand.


All jokes aside, I'm not too enthusiastic about DLC either. Haven't gotten Levvy yet, although I might, once I get through my Elder Scrolls kick I'm on. Although if they really did make the Dinosaur DLC, man I would be buying copies of that. If just because I'm one of its proponents on the boards. 

Modifié par D24O, 08 septembre 2012 - 03:31 .


#2827
Adanu

Adanu
  • Members
  • 1 400 messages
If you anti-enders thought that 'one last plea' would make them do a disney ending, you were mistaken.

The endings are awesome as is. If you want to stop the cycles, you have to make a sacrifice. There is no way around it.

#2828
Wayning_Star

Wayning_Star
  • Members
  • 8 022 messages

D24O wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Hmm, perhaps it's an old dead relic vs. a live dead relic.  You decide which is which-(hint: I'm one of them).

I fully support any and all DLC after I get my way (I'm appealing to all those that say I'm selfish). I want what I want and I want it now.  Or, at least at some point before I am in the Dinosaur DLC.

Hey, new idea.  How about a contest on the BSN, Bioware.  Best fan ever gets a walk on role in your DLC.  Hint: I'm sure I wouldn't be in the running but I'd make a great Dinosaur.

Seriously now--I really was joking though not so funny, I think many who have posted here would have a lot more expressed interest for all DLC if they liked the endings or felt really satisfied with them.  I do support most DLC but I just don't have any enthusiasm for it as things stand.


All jokes aside, I'm not too enthusiastic about DLC either. Haven't gotten Levvy yet, although I might, once I get through my Elder Scrolls kick I'm on. Although if they really did make the Dinosaur DLC, man I would be buying copies of that. If just because I'm one of its proponents on the boards. 


I've yet to play scrolls through again with that high def pack.. haven't sprung for that vampire wanna be add on either, but will, if the price drops to realistic level.

ME is toast if they don't fix that choices snafu..it's actually gotten me upset, and that's impossible..lol

#2829
Benchpress610

Benchpress610
  • Members
  • 823 messages
Dee, sorry for using your thread to write this, but I think it’s the perfect platform and it relates to your plea in a basic level. Also, I apologize in advance for style, syntax and grammar errors as I’m not a writer and although I’ve been living in the US for a several years, English is not my native language.
 
I have read a lot about the Mass Effect trilogy ending controversy. I’ve never seen this level of frustration in so many people (myself included) with the ending of a video-game, and I’ve been playing video-games since Pac-Man and Space Invaders. So I tried to analytically analyze my own emotional reaction to the ending and compare it with other people’s. I have read countless posts in this and other forums. Then I tried to peel away the layers of superficial emotions in an attempt to get to the basic – instinctive knot of the frustration. I think it boils down to trust. By transforming the genera of the story from hard sci-fi to all out fantasy in the last minutes of the game and out of left field, BioWare violated (I like to think unwillingly) the implicit trust of the audience.
 
Mass Effect started as a hard sci-fi game. The first game was set in a not too distant future (175 years) and sets up the premises and rules under which this universe will work. It introduces the “element zero” and the phenomena they call “mass effect” which allows for instantaneous transfer of mass between two points in the time-space continuum. It also explains how humans came across this technology with a well designed back story and abundant codex entries.
 
This set of rules and back story established the suspension of disbelief necessary for us, the audience, to accept the concepts being espoused by the author/s. Theses concepts are based on extrapolations of actual science so it is plausible that in 200 – 300 years in the future something like this could be discovered and used for space travel.
 
Then, the game goes into excruciating detail describing how galactic society works, how it’s organized, a well constructed back-story for every different species/civilization, the different areas of the galaxy with its lawless Attican Traverse and Terminus Systems. The writers did a masterful job in making their universe believable and certainly attainable in a not too distant future. In other words, this was NOT a story set in a fantasy world where anything you can think of can happen.
 
The first words I read on the screen when I started Mass Effect for the first time seduced my imagination with the promise of untold and countless adventures. They are still the best introduction to a video-game I’ve ever read:
 
In the year 2148, explorers on Mars discovered the remains of an ancient space faring civilization. In the decades that followed, these mysterious artifacts revealed startling new technologies, enabling travel to the furthest stars. The basis for this incredible technology was a force that controlled the very fabric of space and time.
They called it the greatest discovery in human history.
The civilizations of the galaxy call it... MASS EFFECT.”
 
With this the writer/s establishes the framework where the story will develop. Now, the difficult part, and this is where the talent and dedication of the writer is revealed, is developing an engaging story within the confines of the framework established beforehand. This was achieved for the most part during the first two games and most of the third, which brings me to the main point of my post and why I believe Mass Effect 3 ending fundamentally fails: GENERA
 
I’m not a writer, nor a story-teller. Hell, I’d probably starve if my life depended on writing. But I have read many books, gone to many plays, watched many movies and played many video-games. I also have a degree in engineering, which if nothing else, says I’m not a complete nincompoop. If one thing I’ve learned over the years of reading, watching or playing is you don’t change the genera of a story in the middle of it, and least of all at the end to resolve the main plot.
 
As Dee very eloquently puts it, by establishing the hard sci-fi genera at the beginning, the writers create expectations and implied promises. Therefore when at the end of the last game in the trilogy the story becomes a fantasy tale, most players/spectators feel cheated and betrayed, or at least confused. This is compounded by the fact that it took five years to develop the trilogy. Five years when the players had time to run multiple paly-throughs on the first two games thus becoming familiar with the universe and making it their own.  
 
There are other posters that have explained this better than I ever could, like Zan51. There is also a YouTube video that makes a masterful presentation. But taking away all the other downers like Shepard’s survival, state of the galaxy and so on and so forth, I think this is the yeast of why there is so much dissatisfaction amongst fans. The ending fails in a fundamental – instinctive level thus invalidating the rest of the story.
 
It is clear by the EC and the Leviathan DLC the direction BioWare is taking; reinforcing the concept and trying explain away the Catalyst. All I can tell is from my perspective, the Mass Effect universe has lost its luster. While I wholeheartedly support Dee’s campaign and would welcome an additional ending where we can achieve a “victory”, I have lost the zest for playing Mass Effect I used to have.

#2830
D24O

D24O
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Wayning_Star wrote...

I've yet to play scrolls through again with that high def pack.. haven't sprung for that vampire wanna be add on either, but will, if the price drops to realistic level.

ME is toast if they don't fix that choices snafu..it's actually gotten me upset, and that's impossible..lol


You know which TES you should get if you haven't already played it? Morrowind. Best TES game IMO. I got the GOTY edition for the xbox with the expansions, that has been eating up all kinds of time. Haven't gotten the Skyrim DLC though.

#2831
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

D24O wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Hmm, perhaps it's an old dead relic vs. a live dead relic.  You decide which is which-(hint: I'm one of them).

I fully support any and all DLC after I get my way (I'm appealing to all those that say I'm selfish). I want what I want and I want it now.  Or, at least at some point before I am in the Dinosaur DLC.

Hey, new idea.  How about a contest on the BSN, Bioware.  Best fan ever gets a walk on role in your DLC.  Hint: I'm sure I wouldn't be in the running but I'd make a great Dinosaur.

Seriously now--I really was joking though not so funny, I think many who have posted here would have a lot more expressed interest for all DLC if they liked the endings or felt really satisfied with them.  I do support most DLC but I just don't have any enthusiasm for it as things stand.


All jokes aside, I'm not too enthusiastic about DLC either. Haven't gotten Levvy yet, although I might, once I get through my Elder Scrolls kick I'm on. Although if they really did make the Dinosaur DLC, man I would be buying copies of that. If just because I'm one of its proponents on the boards. 






Oh I agree I so wanted to see the Dinosaurs.  There's so much in these games in the codex that could lead to great DLC or at least some exposition.  Honest to god I'd be happy to have some DLC that died Leviathan to the Beings of Light and that helped to end this on a better than bitter note.  I could see them as having been later versions perhaps of the catalyst or even beings that he was modeled after-perhaps the true catalyst.  The kid only thinks he is the catalyst but there were actually true beings that had a purpose of reining in the "Machine Devils" and not using synthetics to harvest.

There are time capsules on the planet Joab-from an earlier cycle.  The Rachni I thought were shafted.  And I definitely felt that way too about the Dinos.  So much interesting content that I could see them having the ability to create many games even after this with a new protagonist (I love Shepard and would wish they did continue with him/her on into my dinosaur years-you know, tomorrow), but I fear that there's just so much acrimony that they may lack the will to ever even hear the words Mass Effect after this.

I hope that's not so, but if this isn't resolved I may feel that way too.  And that's so sad for me-I feel like I've waited my whole gaming life (and really that is a long time-longer than some of the devs have been alive) for this game series.  Was it perfect?  No.  I never expected nor demanded any thing of the sort (I still am not demanding, I'm explaining).  But it met every criteria that I had wanted in a game (though I could never have stated that this is what I wanted).

Yeah, that's over the top and a lot of responsibility for a game to carry, but I felt it was that good, warts and all.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 08 septembre 2012 - 03:31 .


#2832
Wayning_Star

Wayning_Star
  • Members
  • 8 022 messages

D24O wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I've yet to play scrolls through again with that high def pack.. haven't sprung for that vampire wanna be add on either, but will, if the price drops to realistic level.

ME is toast if they don't fix that choices snafu..it's actually gotten me upset, and that's impossible..lol


You know which TES you should get if you haven't already played it? Morrowind. Best TES game IMO. I got the GOTY edition for the xbox with the expansions, that has been eating up all kinds of time. Haven't gotten the Skyrim DLC though.


hmm, I'll go check it out. Thanks!

#2833
D24O

D24O
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages
Read it wrong, my mistake lol.

Modifié par D24O, 08 septembre 2012 - 03:31 .


#2834
D24O

D24O
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Wayning_Star wrote...

D24O wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I've yet to play scrolls through again with that high def pack.. haven't sprung for that vampire wanna be add on either, but will, if the price drops to realistic level.

ME is toast if they don't fix that choices snafu..it's actually gotten me upset, and that's impossible..lol


You know which TES you should get if you haven't already played it? Morrowind. Best TES game IMO. I got the GOTY edition for the xbox with the expansions, that has been eating up all kinds of time. Haven't gotten the Skyrim DLC though.


hmm, I'll go check it out. Thanks!


It's something of a step back in terms of graphics and gameplay, but IMO is very easy to get immersed with, I always have a lot of fun with it.

#2835
Guest_Eloise K_*

Guest_Eloise K_*
  • Guests

Benchpress610 wrote...

If one thing I’ve learned over the years of reading, watching or playing is you don’t change the genera of a story in the middle of it, and least of all at the end to resolve the main plot.


That's why the last Sherlock Holmes' book caused such a backlash. Not because the main character died, but because his death was totally distant and unrelated to the established lore and genre. Should Sir A. C. Doyle have changed the ending to gratify his upset readers? No, not necessarily. But it was his mistakes, not readers' high/false expectations on S.H.'s story and fate.

Modifié par Eloise K, 08 septembre 2012 - 03:43 .


#2836
Wayning_Star

Wayning_Star
  • Members
  • 8 022 messages

Benchpress610 wrote...

Dee, sorry for using your thread to write this, but I think it’s the perfect platform and it relates to your plea in a basic level. Also, I apologize in advance for style, syntax and grammar errors as I’m not a writer and although I’ve been living in the US for a several years, English is not my native language.
 
I have read a lot about the Mass Effect trilogy ending controversy. I’ve never seen this level of frustration in so many people (myself included) with the ending of a video-game, and I’ve been playing video-games since Pac-Man and Space Invaders. So I tried to analytically analyze my own emotional reaction to the ending and compare it with other people’s. I have read countless posts in this and other forums. Then I tried to peel away the layers of superficial emotions in an attempt to get to the basic – instinctive knot of the frustration. I think it boils down to trust. By transforming the genera of the story from hard sci-fi to all out fantasy in the last minutes of the game and out of left field, BioWare violated (I like to think unwillingly) the implicit trust of the audience.
 
Mass Effect started as a hard sci-fi game. The first game was set in a not too distant future (175 years) and sets up the premises and rules under which this universe will work. It introduces the “element zero” and the phenomena they call “mass effect” which allows for instantaneous transfer of mass between two points in the time-space continuum. It also explains how humans came across this technology with a well designed back story and abundant codex entries.
 
This set of rules and back story established the suspension of disbelief necessary for us, the audience, to accept the concepts being espoused by the author/s. Theses concepts are based on extrapolations of actual science so it is plausible that in 200 – 300 years in the future something like this could be discovered and used for space travel.
 
Then, the game goes into excruciating detail describing how galactic society works, how it’s organized, a well constructed back-story for every different species/civilization, the different areas of the galaxy with its lawless Attican Traverse and Terminus Systems. The writers did a masterful job in making their universe believable and certainly attainable in a not too distant future. In other words, this was NOT a story set in a fantasy world where anything you can think of can happen.
 
The first words I read on the screen when I started Mass Effect for the first time seduced my imagination with the promise of untold and countless adventures. They are still the best introduction to a video-game I’ve ever read:
 
In the year 2148, explorers on Mars discovered the remains of an ancient space faring civilization. In the decades that followed, these mysterious artifacts revealed startling new technologies, enabling travel to the furthest stars. The basis for this incredible technology was a force that controlled the very fabric of space and time.
They called it the greatest discovery in human history.
The civilizations of the galaxy call it... MASS EFFECT.”
 
With this the writer/s establishes the framework where the story will develop. Now, the difficult part, and this is where the talent and dedication of the writer is revealed, is developing an engaging story within the confines of the framework established beforehand. This was achieved for the most part during the first two games and most of the third, which brings me to the main point of my post and why I believe Mass Effect 3 ending fundamentally fails: GENERA
 
I’m not a writer, nor a story-teller. Hell, I’d probably starve if my life depended on writing. But I have read many books, gone to many plays, watched many movies and played many video-games. I also have a degree in engineering, which if nothing else, says I’m not a complete nincompoop. If one thing I’ve learned over the years of reading, watching or playing is you don’t change the genera of a story in the middle of it, and least of all at the end to resolve the main plot.
 
As Dee very eloquently puts it, by establishing the hard sci-fi genera at the beginning, the writers create expectations and implied promises. Therefore when at the end of the last game in the trilogy the story becomes a fantasy tale, most players/spectators feel cheated and betrayed, or at least confused. This is compounded by the fact that it took five years to develop the trilogy. Five years when the players had time to run multiple paly-throughs on the first two games thus becoming familiar with the universe and making it their own.  
 
There are other posters that have explained this better than I ever could, like Zan51. There is also a YouTube video that makes a masterful presentation. But taking away all the other downers like Shepard’s survival, state of the galaxy and so on and so forth, I think this is the yeast of why there is so much dissatisfaction amongst fans. The ending fails in a fundamental – instinctive level thus invalidating the rest of the story.
 
It is clear by the EC and the Leviathan DLC the direction BioWare is taking; reinforcing the concept and trying explain away the Catalyst. All I can tell is from my perspective, the Mass Effect universe has lost its luster. While I wholeheartedly support Dee’s campaign and would welcome an additional ending where we can achieve a “victory”, I have lost the zest for playing Mass Effect I used to have.


""Then I tried to peel away the layers of superficial emotions.."" That may be where BioWarEa went kindof wrong. They didn't expect their fan base to be so intrigued by the game history and Sheps existence. They cut back on facts and promoted filler graphics. Now everyone is metagaming entire new episodes, instead of figuring out which choice is the best guess to lose with. The game has no consistent 'win' ending. Of which I think is rather strange, considering Shep's character development. Now, with seeming patch DLC and EC's to grind that flour out of existence.

#2837
Guest_Eloise K_*

Guest_Eloise K_*
  • Guests

Wayning_Star wrote...

 The game has no consistent 'win' ending.



#2838
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Benchpress610 wrote...

Dee, sorry for using your thread to write this, but I think it’s the perfect platform and it relates to your plea in a basic level. Also, I apologize in advance for style, syntax and grammar errors as I’m not a writer and although I’ve been living in the US for a several years, English is not my native language.
 
I have read a lot about the Mass Effect trilogy ending controversy. I’ve never seen this level of frustration in so many people (myself included) with the ending of a video-game, and I’ve been playing video-games since Pac-Man and Space Invaders. So I tried to analytically analyze my own emotional reaction to the ending and compare it with other people’s. I have read countless posts in this and other forums. Then I tried to peel away the layers of superficial emotions in an attempt to get to the basic – instinctive knot of the frustration. I think it boils down to trust. By transforming the genera of the story from hard sci-fi to all out fantasy in the last minutes of the game and out of left field, BioWare violated (I like to think unwillingly) the implicit trust of the audience.
 
Mass Effect started as a hard sci-fi game. The first game was set in a not too distant future (175 years) and sets up the premises and rules under which this universe will work. It introduces the “element zero” and the phenomena they call “mass effect” which allows for instantaneous transfer of mass between two points in the time-space continuum. It also explains how humans came across this technology with a well designed back story and abundant codex entries.
 
This set of rules and back story established the suspension of disbelief necessary for us, the audience, to accept the concepts being espoused by the author/s. Theses concepts are based on extrapolations of actual science so it is plausible that in 200 – 300 years in the future something like this could be discovered and used for space travel.
 
Then, the game goes into excruciating detail describing how galactic society works, how it’s organized, a well constructed back-story for every different species/civilization, the different areas of the galaxy with its lawless Attican Traverse and Terminus Systems. The writers did a masterful job in making their universe believable and certainly attainable in a not too distant future. In other words, this was NOT a story set in a fantasy world where anything you can think of can happen.
 
The first words I read on the screen when I started Mass Effect for the first time seduced my imagination with the promise of untold and countless adventures. They are still the best introduction to a video-game I’ve ever read:
 
In the year 2148, explorers on Mars discovered the remains of an ancient space faring civilization. In the decades that followed, these mysterious artifacts revealed startling new technologies, enabling travel to the furthest stars. The basis for this incredible technology was a force that controlled the very fabric of space and time.
They called it the greatest discovery in human history.
The civilizations of the galaxy call it... MASS EFFECT.”
 
With this the writer/s establishes the framework where the story will develop. Now, the difficult part, and this is where the talent and dedication of the writer is revealed, is developing an engaging story within the confines of the framework established beforehand. This was achieved for the most part during the first two games and most of the third, which brings me to the main point of my post and why I believe Mass Effect 3 ending fundamentally fails: GENERA
 
I’m not a writer, nor a story-teller. Hell, I’d probably starve if my life depended on writing. But I have read many books, gone to many plays, watched many movies and played many video-games. I also have a degree in engineering, which if nothing else, says I’m not a complete nincompoop. If one thing I’ve learned over the years of reading, watching or playing is you don’t change the genera of a story in the middle of it, and least of all at the end to resolve the main plot.
 
As Dee very eloquently puts it, by establishing the hard sci-fi genera at the beginning, the writers create expectations and implied promises. Therefore when at the end of the last game in the trilogy the story becomes a fantasy tale, most players/spectators feel cheated and betrayed, or at least confused. This is compounded by the fact that it took five years to develop the trilogy. Five years when the players had time to run multiple paly-throughs on the first two games thus becoming familiar with the universe and making it their own.  
 
There are other posters that have explained this better than I ever could, like Zan51. There is also a YouTube video that makes a masterful presentation. But taking away all the other downers like Shepard’s survival, state of the galaxy and so on and so forth, I think this is the yeast of why there is so much dissatisfaction amongst fans. The ending fails in a fundamental – instinctive level thus invalidating the rest of the story.
 
It is clear by the EC and the Leviathan DLC the direction BioWare is taking; reinforcing the concept and trying explain away the Catalyst. All I can tell is from my perspective, the Mass Effect universe has lost its luster. While I wholeheartedly support Dee’s campaign and would welcome an additional ending where we can achieve a “victory”, I have lost the zest for playing Mass Effect I used to have.



Great post and you said it very eloquently indeed.  Those of us that dislike things as they are instantly felt this gut reaction, this disconnect.  It feels wrong and you cannot argue with feelings.  We should be feeling a lot of things at the end and it should be an adrenaline rust, an overwhelming sense that if you make a mistake you are dooming the galaxy.  Instead, it's ho hum, make a choice.  Cool.

Once the dust cleared, and the shock wore off we could start to put these feelings into words.  And a lot of fumbles were made in doing this.  I know why.  The game made you think that you would be hitting this adrenaline rush, this action, this excitement, and all of that had nowhere to go at the end.  There was no outlet for all that build up of excitement for the game-after 5 years you'd fight the foe, you'd save everyone and you'd win the prize for doing this.  It's called eye candy in many games, but in ME that was way too trivial and was not what the other games promised.  They promised meat and substance and authenticity and fighting and catharsis.

Benchpress you said it so well.  We trusted not only in BW, but in ME itself.  And the kid stands there laughing at us.

#2839
Wayning_Star

Wayning_Star
  • Members
  • 8 022 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

Dee, sorry for using your thread to write this, but I think it’s the perfect platform and it relates to your plea in a basic level. Also, I apologize in advance for style, syntax and grammar errors as I’m not a writer and although I’ve been living in the US for a several years, English is not my native language.
 
I have read a lot about the Mass Effect trilogy ending controversy. I’ve never seen this level of frustration in so many people (myself included) with the ending of a video-game, and I’ve been playing video-games since Pac-Man and Space Invaders. So I tried to analytically analyze my own emotional reaction to the ending and compare it with other people’s. I have read countless posts in this and other forums. Then I tried to peel away the layers of superficial emotions in an attempt to get to the basic – instinctive knot of the frustration. I think it boils down to trust. By transforming the genera of the story from hard sci-fi to all out fantasy in the last minutes of the game and out of left field, BioWare violated (I like to think unwillingly) the implicit trust of the audience.
 
Mass Effect started as a hard sci-fi game. The first game was set in a not too distant future (175 years) and sets up the premises and rules under which this universe will work. It introduces the “element zero” and the phenomena they call “mass effect” which allows for instantaneous transfer of mass between two points in the time-space continuum. It also explains how humans came across this technology with a well designed back story and abundant codex entries.
 
This set of rules and back story established the suspension of disbelief necessary for us, the audience, to accept the concepts being espoused by the author/s. Theses concepts are based on extrapolations of actual science so it is plausible that in 200 – 300 years in the future something like this could be discovered and used for space travel.
 
Then, the game goes into excruciating detail describing how galactic society works, how it’s organized, a well constructed back-story for every different species/civilization, the different areas of the galaxy with its lawless Attican Traverse and Terminus Systems. The writers did a masterful job in making their universe believable and certainly attainable in a not too distant future. In other words, this was NOT a story set in a fantasy world where anything you can think of can happen.
 
The first words I read on the screen when I started Mass Effect for the first time seduced my imagination with the promise of untold and countless adventures. They are still the best introduction to a video-game I’ve ever read:
 
In the year 2148, explorers on Mars discovered the remains of an ancient space faring civilization. In the decades that followed, these mysterious artifacts revealed startling new technologies, enabling travel to the furthest stars. The basis for this incredible technology was a force that controlled the very fabric of space and time.
They called it the greatest discovery in human history.
The civilizations of the galaxy call it... MASS EFFECT.”
 
With this the writer/s establishes the framework where the story will develop. Now, the difficult part, and this is where the talent and dedication of the writer is revealed, is developing an engaging story within the confines of the framework established beforehand. This was achieved for the most part during the first two games and most of the third, which brings me to the main point of my post and why I believe Mass Effect 3 ending fundamentally fails: GENERA
 
I’m not a writer, nor a story-teller. Hell, I’d probably starve if my life depended on writing. But I have read many books, gone to many plays, watched many movies and played many video-games. I also have a degree in engineering, which if nothing else, says I’m not a complete nincompoop. If one thing I’ve learned over the years of reading, watching or playing is you don’t change the genera of a story in the middle of it, and least of all at the end to resolve the main plot.
 
As Dee very eloquently puts it, by establishing the hard sci-fi genera at the beginning, the writers create expectations and implied promises. Therefore when at the end of the last game in the trilogy the story becomes a fantasy tale, most players/spectators feel cheated and betrayed, or at least confused. This is compounded by the fact that it took five years to develop the trilogy. Five years when the players had time to run multiple paly-throughs on the first two games thus becoming familiar with the universe and making it their own.  
 
There are other posters that have explained this better than I ever could, like Zan51. There is also a YouTube video that makes a masterful presentation. But taking away all the other downers like Shepard’s survival, state of the galaxy and so on and so forth, I think this is the yeast of why there is so much dissatisfaction amongst fans. The ending fails in a fundamental – instinctive level thus invalidating the rest of the story.
 
It is clear by the EC and the Leviathan DLC the direction BioWare is taking; reinforcing the concept and trying explain away the Catalyst. All I can tell is from my perspective, the Mass Effect universe has lost its luster. While I wholeheartedly support Dee’s campaign and would welcome an additional ending where we can achieve a “victory”, I have lost the zest for playing Mass Effect I used to have.



Great post and you said it very eloquently indeed.  Those of us that dislike things as they are instantly felt this gut reaction, this disconnect.  It feels wrong and you cannot argue with feelings.  We should be feeling a lot of things at the end and it should be an adrenaline rust, an overwhelming sense that if you make a mistake you are dooming the galaxy.  Instead, it's ho hum, make a choice.  Cool.

Once the dust cleared, and the shock wore off we could start to put these feelings into words.  And a lot of fumbles were made in doing this.  I know why.  The game made you think that you would be hitting this adrenaline rush, this action, this excitement, and all of that had nowhere to go at the end.  There was no outlet for all that build up of excitement for the game-after 5 years you'd fight the foe, you'd save everyone and you'd win the prize for doing this.  It's called eye candy in many games, but in ME that was way too trivial and was not what the other games promised.  They promised meat and substance and authenticity and fighting and catharsis.

Benchpress you said it so well.  We trusted not only in BW, but in ME itself.  And the kid stands there laughing at us.



adrenaline Posted Imagerust? lol Got yah..

#2840
Wayning_Star

Wayning_Star
  • Members
  • 8 022 messages

Eloise K wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

 The game has no consistent 'win' ending.


so I'm an optimist who chose redundant synthesis..lol

#2841
Benchpress610

Benchpress610
  • Members
  • 823 messages

Wayning_Star wrote...

adrenaline Posted Imagerust? lol Got yah..

LOL Posted Image

#2842
baned1

baned1
  • Members
  • 5 messages
Please fix the endings Bioware, PLEASE!

#2843
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Benchpress610 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

adrenaline Posted Imagerust? lol Got yah..

LOL Posted Image


Ha ha, oldish fingers sometimes hit the wrong keys and tired eyes aren't always quick enough to catch the mistakes. 

#2844
Lunch Box1912

Lunch Box1912
  • Members
  • 3 159 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

Please watch logic flow chart Comic Con Bioware www.youtube.com/watch
And please read, very informative Wiki open ended en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-ended_(gameplay)

So I was poking around the web a bit and reading up on some things and between skimming wiki and watching Bioware videos this came to my attention… (I know awesome Friday night...)

Can you call Mass Effect an open ended RPG? Just based off the logic map I would say no as everything seemed to end into one sequence. Then I began to search the Bioware websites to see if Bioware ever even called it an open ended RPG. They called it a (Sci-fi role playing game...ME1 and an Interactive Storytelling Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome…ME3) ok so the ME3 summary may be a bit misleading? but they never stated open ended RPG. My choices and decisions absolutely affected my game play as different characters lived or died or if I completed a mission or ignored it all together did matter in terms of my game play experience. So I would categorize Mass Effect as a linear nonlinear hybrid RPG. I would also say that even though the endings are ‘’different” they still follow the same flow to one final sequence even if the sequence has its own variables, so I would say no the game does not have multiple endings. 

With that said would anyone on this thread be able to help show a logic scenario that would help to make several different endings possible that would fit in with Biowares current flow chart? Then maybe Bioware would consider bringing the game back to a true RPG through DLC? Does anyone think this would help? Bring a little hope for One Last Plea – to do the right thing?
 
Note: I just want to say I’m no game developer, I don’t know the first thing about it. Just thought if anyone reading this besides Bioware who knew how to go about such a thing? Kind of like a Mass Effect  GNU project for the saving of the Mass Effect Series.


I'm no developer either but I think there were ways it could have been done to lead to various endings that happened as natural outcomes.  If the slide shows evolved from your past choices that's the key.  Cured the genophage you get a slide about that-so curing the genophage could have had an effect that impacted the ending, rather than creating a slide.

What you have is it seems that for the end there are very few decisions that are taken into account.  Paragon/renegade, your LI, and those that impact the slides and the biggest thing is EMS, but even that is limited.  So, once you hit a certain EMS range, that's not at all important.  The rest that matters is paragon and renegade and the things shown in slides.  You get a lot of Krogan slides.  And for each choice there are a limited number of different slides.

I can't say specifically how difficult all this was at all, but I'd have preferred fewer slides and actually have those choices that led to the slides be taken into account in getting an ending.

The other problem here is that they don't really assign their own idea of what is a negative value to a decision.  Consider that most every decision gets you just about the same net asset value-give or take a few points that are mostly meaningless.  So cure the genophage or don't cure it and you will likely get enough assets.  You are not significantly penalized for any decision you make.  I think that's the real culprit in including choices at the end as well as EMS.  What choices you get are based on minimum EMS.  What type of choice is based on paragon and renegade.  What slides you get and LI looking or not looking at your name are all based on some choices you made.  The slides, LI, or no LI, and paragon or renegade outcomes are the only real tangible things that change based upon what you did in the game.  EMS is there and determines how much you completed of the optional stuff in the game (and you don't have to complete too much if you play MP).



So your kind of saying the pathways are there they just used them for junk slides?
 
Kind of like normally  < greater than and  > less than of A affects your outcome.
 Say there is 3 parts to a game, 3 big decisions and an outcome.  P1, P2, P3, P4 (P4 the outcome)
 
       If player chooses A and A and then A their outcome equals = 3A (Paragon)
       If player chooses A and A and then B their outcome equals = 2A (Paragon)
       If player chooses B and A and then A their outcome still equals = 2A (Paragon) in the eyes of the logic engine?
       But if they chose B and B and then A their outcome equals = 1A (Renegade)
       If player chooses B and B and then B their outcome equals = 0A (Renegade)
 
So even if our choices were different at other points in the game when we reach P4 even though our values of Renegade or Paragon are different  they assigned the same value they basically said  0A is = to 3A. Then added the Extended Cut (P5) to use the values of P1, P2, and P3 to give us slides?
This just seems like bad math?... We could have assigned 4 different outcomes right?

#2845
Benchpress610

Benchpress610
  • Members
  • 823 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

Great post and you said it very eloquently indeed.  Those of us that dislike things as they are instantly felt this gut reaction, this disconnect.  It feels wrong and you cannot argue with feelings.  We should be feeling a lot of things at the end and it should be an adrenaline rust, an overwhelming sense that if you make a mistake you are dooming the galaxy.  Instead, it's ho hum, make a choice.  Cool.

Once the dust cleared, and the shock wore off we could start to put these feelings into words.  And a lot of fumbles were made in doing this.  I know why.  The game made you think that you would be hitting this adrenaline rush, this action, this excitement, and all of that had nowhere to go at the end.  There was no outlet for all that build up of excitement for the game-after 5 years you'd fight the foe, you'd save everyone and you'd win the prize for doing this.  It's called eye candy in many games, but in ME that was way too trivial and was not what the other games promised.  They promised meat and substance and authenticity and fighting and catharsis.

Benchpress you said it so well.  We trusted not only in BW, but in ME itself.  And the kid stands there laughing at us.

Thanks for the kind words Dee

#2846
Wayning_Star

Wayning_Star
  • Members
  • 8 022 messages

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

Please watch logic flow chart Comic Con Bioware www.youtube.com/watch
And please read, very informative Wiki open ended en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-ended_(gameplay)

So I was poking around the web a bit and reading up on some things and between skimming wiki and watching Bioware videos this came to my attention… (I know awesome Friday night...)

Can you call Mass Effect an open ended RPG? Just based off the logic map I would say no as everything seemed to end into one sequence. Then I began to search the Bioware websites to see if Bioware ever even called it an open ended RPG. They called it a (Sci-fi role playing game...ME1 and an Interactive Storytelling Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome…ME3) ok so the ME3 summary may be a bit misleading? but they never stated open ended RPG. My choices and decisions absolutely affected my game play as different characters lived or died or if I completed a mission or ignored it all together did matter in terms of my game play experience. So I would categorize Mass Effect as a linear nonlinear hybrid RPG. I would also say that even though the endings are ‘’different” they still follow the same flow to one final sequence even if the sequence has its own variables, so I would say no the game does not have multiple endings. 

With that said would anyone on this thread be able to help show a logic scenario that would help to make several different endings possible that would fit in with Biowares current flow chart? Then maybe Bioware would consider bringing the game back to a true RPG through DLC? Does anyone think this would help? Bring a little hope for One Last Plea – to do the right thing?
 
Note: I just want to say I’m no game developer, I don’t know the first thing about it. Just thought if anyone reading this besides Bioware who knew how to go about such a thing? Kind of like a Mass Effect  GNU project for the saving of the Mass Effect Series.


I'm no developer either but I think there were ways it could have been done to lead to various endings that happened as natural outcomes.  If the slide shows evolved from your past choices that's the key.  Cured the genophage you get a slide about that-so curing the genophage could have had an effect that impacted the ending, rather than creating a slide.

What you have is it seems that for the end there are very few decisions that are taken into account.  Paragon/renegade, your LI, and those that impact the slides and the biggest thing is EMS, but even that is limited.  So, once you hit a certain EMS range, that's not at all important.  The rest that matters is paragon and renegade and the things shown in slides.  You get a lot of Krogan slides.  And for each choice there are a limited number of different slides.

I can't say specifically how difficult all this was at all, but I'd have preferred fewer slides and actually have those choices that led to the slides be taken into account in getting an ending.

The other problem here is that they don't really assign their own idea of what is a negative value to a decision.  Consider that most every decision gets you just about the same net asset value-give or take a few points that are mostly meaningless.  So cure the genophage or don't cure it and you will likely get enough assets.  You are not significantly penalized for any decision you make.  I think that's the real culprit in including choices at the end as well as EMS.  What choices you get are based on minimum EMS.  What type of choice is based on paragon and renegade.  What slides you get and LI looking or not looking at your name are all based on some choices you made.  The slides, LI, or no LI, and paragon or renegade outcomes are the only real tangible things that change based upon what you did in the game.  EMS is there and determines how much you completed of the optional stuff in the game (and you don't have to complete too much if you play MP).



So your kind of saying the pathways are there they just used them for junk slides?
 
Kind of like normally  < greater than and  > less than of A affects your outcome.
 Say there is 3 parts to a game, 3 big decisions and an outcome.  P1, P2, P3, P4 (P4 the outcome)
 
       If player chooses A and A and then A their outcome equals = 3A (Paragon)
       If player chooses A and A and then B their outcome equals = 2A (Paragon)
       If player chooses B and A and then A their outcome still equals = 2A (Paragon) in the eyes of the logic engine?
       But if they chose B and B and then A their outcome equals = 1A (Renegade)
       If player chooses B and B and then B their outcome equals = 0A (Renegade)
 
So even if our choices were different at other points in the game when we reach P4 even though our values of Renegade or Paragon are different  they assigned the same value they basically said  0A is = to 3A. Then added the Extended Cut (P5) to use the values of P1, P2, and P3 to give us slides?
This just seems like bad math?... We could have assigned 4 different outcomes right?


for me, hitting the correct flags in conversation were problematic. Probably where they got the ideas of several different endings and outcomes from the game? One playthrough, with slightly more renegade helped save Wrex, or one other converstion choice, opened up more dialogue, then more effective conversation. That's hard game play right there..makes for more playthroughs to get where you might want to go. I couldn't keep tabs on it like many more astute players might...grumble grumble.

#2847
Wayning_Star

Wayning_Star
  • Members
  • 8 022 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

Benchpress610 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

adrenaline Posted Imagerust? lol Got yah..

LOL Posted Image


Ha ha, oldish fingers sometimes hit the wrong keys and tired eyes aren't always quick enough to catch the mistakes. 


I demand an EC!! hehehPosted Image

#2848
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

So your kind of saying the pathways are there they just used them for junk slides?
 
Kind of like normally  < greater than and  > less than of A affects your outcome.
 Say there is 3 parts to a game, 3 big decisions and an outcome.  P1, P2, P3, P4 (P4 the outcome)
 
       If player chooses A and A and then A their outcome equals = 3A (Paragon)
       If player chooses A and A and then B their outcome equals = 2A (Paragon)
       If player chooses B and A and then A their outcome still equals = 2A (Paragon) in the eyes of the logic engine?
       But if they chose B and B and then A their outcome equals = 1A (Renegade)
       If player chooses B and B and then B their outcome equals = 0A (Renegade)
 
So even if our choices were different at other points in the game when we reach P4 even though our values of Renegade or Paragon are different  they assigned the same value they basically said  0A is = to 3A. Then added the Extended Cut (P5) to use the values of P1, P2, and P3 to give us slides?
This just seems like bad math?... We could have assigned 4 different outcomes right?


Well, I can't say how many different outcomes because I have not played the low EMS ones and I have the DLC for ME2 and so on.  See, the thing is you get different slides if you never played ME2 and never got the DLC for it.  Those count as outcomes, I'd guess. 

The Slides are used for the most variations as far as I can tell.  The LI seen at the end is limited to  those on the Normandy so I think Liara stands in if your LI is not there.  Those seem to be the variety.

EMS determines how many choices you get and a certain level of devastation.  Low EMS gets teammates killed by Harbinger (apparently) and has other bad effects at the end.  Higher EMS has better effects, supposedly.  I have not done a renegade runthrough, have seen it a coiuple times on youtube so I can't confirm all that happens but things are somewhat different-narration mostly.  I don't know how much it actually affects the programming of it, but it seems somewhat limited except for slides.

#2849
legion 21

legion 21
  • Members
  • 259 messages
Bioware please fix the ending, thank you

#2850
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 818 messages
Great post Benchpress610. The disconnect I felt and that others felt was the problem. I hate to admit it but I looked at my potential imports from ME1 to ME2 and there were like 11. From ME2 to 3, 12. Then ME3 I have 3 and no more. One because it was the first and I felt like crap. The second because I must have missed something and I was in denial that BW actually made such a ****ty ending to the series. No. They really did. Then the third one was the EC playthrough because I wanted to see if they did anything else with the EC because sometimes companies change things they don't tell you about.

Well the EC was the same crappy endings with sprinkles. And here I'd trusted BioWare writers with my heart in this series. Never again. Hell hath no fury and all that stuff.