6432 réponses à ce sujet

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You misunderstanding what mass produced means vs user specification.

Mass produced caters to many which all have different reasons to buy it. ME3 is a mass produced product. User specification, a demand to have something made the way you want it despite what everyone else wants. This is not how ME3 was created despite you not liking some parts of it.

That ME3 is mass-produced is not relevant to the argument. Mass-produced products are still capable of modification.

That's why this is about collective, not individual, action. Get enough support for something that a developer sees profit in mass-producing it. The relevant argument is that Bioware producing games is dependent on the consumer. Ergo, the consumers in sufficient numbers exert authority over the developer. Unless you really think EA would still have produced ME3 even if no one would have bought it?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 09 septembre 2012 - 05:45 .

[Dragoonlordz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Seival wrote...

I suggested DLC that will not alter the story in any way, just like EC. Such DLC would be more like the extended epilogue, and nice way to say farewell to your own Shepard(s).

As you can see, most people like the idea. Even some haters like it:

---snipped


But your suggestions can only please haters by disapointing pro-enders. That's one of the reasons why BioWare will never do as you ask.

Not true.  And you can keep calling people haters until you are blue in the face.  It's not mature at all and sad really that in order to try and make a point where you have no case, you need to resort to insults.  It's time to stop.  Past time.

People did point out in your thread that what you suggested would change the endings for them.  But you dismissed them as you do anyone who disagrees with you.

How would my suggestions disappoint you, Seival, if you never have to see them?  This indicates that even you would buy the DLC if it happened.  If not, then it would not have any impact on what you now have, but you can't find it in your heart to admit that or to even give an inch.  You are so stuck in labeling people in some juvenile way that you can't and won't ever move on yourself.   It's why you keep posting here.  You can't let go.

Your confusing having a case as it were 'valid opposition' which has been provided and your stance of it is not valid unless you agree with it or choose to acknowledge.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 septembre 2012 - 05:46 .

[Dragoonlordz]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You misunderstanding what mass produced means vs user specification.

Mass produced caters to many which all have different reasons to buy it. ME3 is a mass produced product. User specification, a demand to have something made the way you want it despite what everyone else wants. This is not how ME3 was created despite you not liking some parts of it.

That ME3 is mass-produced is not relevant to the argument. Mass-produced products are still capable of modification.

That's why this is about collective, not individual, action. Get enough support for something that a developer sees profit in mass-producing it. The relevant argument is that Bioware producing games is dependent on the consumer. Ergo, the consumers in sufficient numbers exert authority over the developer. Unless you think EA would still have produced ME3 even if no one would have bought it?

And Bioware knows the demand better than you as an individual so when they say they are not doing something it is equally possible it is because the demand is not as high as you personally think it is. This is without me having to go into the fact their is a limited time frame to DLC and what x wants takes time and money away from what y wants within that time limit.

[N7 Lisbeth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

The endings suck, get over it. The writer has, and if they can't handle criticism, they shouldn't be writing. The endings need to be changed, added to by way of war assets altering the outcome, or something to properly add closure (reunion and Shepard contributing to rebuilding the galaxy  in Destroy, rebuilding in Control, and of course Synthesis gets the short stick because it was painted into a corner and stomped on).

Trying to protect some writer by mothballing a whole franchise, virtually strangling all DLC to uselessness, and alienating a huge fanbase is a terrible, terrible business strategem.

Ignorance will only spread more ignorance and you're the perfect example of that happeing.  Hopefully you should know that DLC has been optional in most games including the ME series.

Epique Phael767 wrote...

They stopped caring about business when they called their endings "art" IMO.

How is that when Bioware has always done what they have wanted to do since Baldur's Gate. 

Aw, that's cute. You disagree with me so you call me ignorant. Did I overwhelm you with my preference, or that of most of the community? (Easily judged in the wake of controversy regarding the ending in these very forums.)

You're welcome to your numbingly warped and unsatisfying endings. Me, I'll opt for purchased DLC to correct and fix the endings. You're not affected, I get what I want. But then, that would shatter your delicate sensibilities, so I'm certain you'll disagree, because you can't do anything but.

Let me reiterate and clarify: The endings sucked. After the Extended Cut, they still sucked and opened up even larger plot holes. They need to be fixed. And, because I've never believed in the moral highground, you, sir, can go suck an egg.

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 09 septembre 2012 - 05:57 .

[AresKeith]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You misunderstanding what mass produced means vs user specification.

Mass produced caters to many which all have different reasons to buy it. ME3 is a mass produced product. User specification, a demand to have something made the way you want it despite what everyone else wants. This is not how ME3 was created despite you not liking some parts of it.

That ME3 is mass-produced is not relevant to the argument. Mass-produced products are still capable of modification.

That's why this is about collective, not individual, action. Get enough support for something that a developer sees profit in mass-producing it. The relevant argument is that Bioware producing games is dependent on the consumer. Ergo, the consumers in sufficient numbers exert authority over the developer. Unless you think EA would still have produced ME3 even if no one would have bought it?

And Bioware knows the demand better than you as an individual so when they say they are not doing something it is equally possible it is because the demand is not as high as you personally think it is. This is without me having to go into the fact their is a limited time frame to DLC and what x wants takes time and money away from what y wants within that time limit.

you don't know what Bioware is planning within their DLCs as much as we don't

[Archonsg]

I am still curious to see just how well Bioware's next game will sell. Given its a "Command and Conquer" game which appeals to an entirely different genre of players.
More telling, probably Dragon Age 3, if it even gets off the storyboard.

Or another Mass Effect game.

Bioware did buy back some good will wuth the EC, and I know some actually bought Leviathan because they were hoping for a huge impact for a new ending, even ignoring advice to "wait and see".
Even now there are rumblings that Omega would hold the "key" for an alternate end, but seriously, if it isn't obvious by now, the current planned DLCs and BW's own track record indicates that tgey just don't care and want the issues with the ending to be swept aside.

Sad isn't it?
That everything fir the past 5 years to end the way it did?
It could have been remembered fir being the Epic game of the Decade, instead it became a sad reminder that "core fans" are just numbers and that a company's integrity and reputation for doing what is right towards its fans (aka paying customers) means little to nothing.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

And Bioware knows the demand better than you as an individual so when they say they are not doing something it is equally possible it is because the demand is not as high as you personally think it is.

Irrelevant. It is not your place to decide what demand a consumer is allowed to make. Dragoonlordz is not the person everyone here is appealing to in order for this dlc to be made, Bioware is.

If your point is that it's probably not going to happen, then you're wasting your time. The OP, and most people here, already know that. Hell, I think it's a waste of time. But Seival's point extended beyond that to say that consumers should not be demanding anything because it's not "our story". It doesn't matter because it's our money being used to tell their story, hence Bioware cannot tell their story without our money.

This is without me having to go into the fact their is a limited time frame to DLC and what x wants takes time and money away from what y wants within that time limit.

Technically not. The time frame is whatever the fans give it. If two million fans were willing to pay $10 for a short scene of Shepard breathing, Bioware is going to meet that demand whether it's a month or a year after release.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 09 septembre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Xellith]

I think DA3 is already in production but I could be completely wrong on this. I'll play it but I wont wont be buying it.

Modifié par Xellith, 09 septembre 2012 - 05:58 .

[AresKeith]

Xellith wrote...

I think DA3 is already in production but I could be completely wrong on this. I'll play it but I wont wont be buying it.

I heard it was gonna be a prequel with a MP

[Chaotic-Fusion]

Xellith wrote...

I think DA3 is already in production but I could be completely wrong on this. I'll play it but I wont wont be buying it.

Bioware hinted it entered production in early june. After DA2 and ME3, I'm not very interested.

[Dragoonlordz]

AresKeith wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You misunderstanding what mass produced means vs user specification.

Mass produced caters to many which all have different reasons to buy it. ME3 is a mass produced product. User specification, a demand to have something made the way you want it despite what everyone else wants. This is not how ME3 was created despite you not liking some parts of it.

That ME3 is mass-produced is not relevant to the argument. Mass-produced products are still capable of modification.

That's why this is about collective, not individual, action. Get enough support for something that a developer sees profit in mass-producing it. The relevant argument is that Bioware producing games is dependent on the consumer. Ergo, the consumers in sufficient numbers exert authority over the developer. Unless you think EA would still have produced ME3 even if no one would have bought it?

And Bioware knows the demand better than you as an individual so when they say they are not doing something it is equally possible it is because the demand is not as high as you personally think it is. This is without me having to go into the fact their is a limited time frame to DLC and what x wants takes time and money away from what y wants within that time limit.

you don't know what Bioware is planning within their DLCs as much as we don't

I do know for a fact when ME4 (whether prequel, sequel or spin off) comes out there won't be any ME3 DLC being made at that stage anymore. I know for fact that is how Bioware handles DLC and that there is a time frame limitation between one title and the next they use to create DLC for the previous game.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 septembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[Redbelle]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Xellith wrote...

I think DA3 is already in production but I could be completely wrong on this. I'll play it but I wont wont be buying it.

Bioware hinted it entered production in early june. After DA2 and ME3, I'm not very interested.

I know they started an official thread of what ppl wanted from it. Think it's closed now though

[Iakus]

Xellith wrote...

I think DA3 is already in production but I could be completely wrong on this. I'll play it but I wont wont be buying it.

It's kind of an open secret.  Nothing's been officially announced, but they've also said they're not going to announce anything until they have footage to back things up.

[3DandBeyond]

webhead921 wrote...

So OP, what makes it "the right thing"?

I've said what is the right thing in my OP, but here goes...

I have stated it is in my opinion the right thing.  And this is what I think that is.  I would like BW to step back and take a look at all of this through unjade eyes, fresh eyes.  Look at how people viewed ME, pre-ending debacle, see what they loved and then perhaps see why this goes so against what they see in the ending.  I've said that perhaps they could consider an all around compromise-paid for DLC that involves the least invasive way to add closure for the one ending that does not have it and a real satisfying win for those that now feel that's left out.  I've suggested ways to do that that are non-destructive and optional, so as not to impact the endings others now have and like.  And I've suggested even more invasive ways that would be perhaps well-received, but might not be agreeable to those who like what they have.

I've asserted that this might well lead to a longer lifespan for creating other DLC (more resources for it as well) and that beyond any they already have planned they might consider at some point other DLC that has been widely requested.  I've also said that this might in fact lead to a decision to continue with the ME franchise or ME-type games, even if with a new protagonist.  There's more that I've suggested and asserted, but mostly what I'm doing is asking. 

The main point is the right thing to me mostly is BW deciding to take another less emotional look at all of this and that we all try (myself included) to tone down the hostility.  It isn't helping anyone.  I also think BW needs to know that much of what has occurred is because of the real love and connection we have had with what they created.  Love and hate are 2 sides of the same coin, but most of what we still feel is that love-of great stories and great characters and we don't want that to go away.

People call me a hater because all they can see is what they want to see.  They see the focus as the last 10% (it's far less) of the game, when the real focus is the rest of ME as a whole.  I love at least 90% of ME3 and I will say 100% of the other 2 games-nothing in them kills the experience for me.  That means I love at least 97% of ME.  That last little bit is a big and the most important part of the whole series though-it's the last image you are left with.  For me and many like me, it ruins replayability.  Others have a different opinion and I can't change that, I wouldn't change that.  I'm not asking them to change it.  I'm just asking for BW to consider a way for the rest of us to find a bit of satisfaction with it as well and I see it as quite possibly a win for everyone if they can and do.

I don't expect everyone to agree that my "right thing" is the same as theirs.  I just would hope others would consider they have nothing to lose here, it isn't aimed at hurting them at all.  It is merely aimed at very possibly helping as many people as possible, including BW.

[Dragoonlordz]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

This is without me having to go into the fact their is a limited time frame to DLC and what x wants takes time and money away from what y wants within that time limit.

Technically not. The time frame is whatever the fans give it. If two million fans were willing to pay $10 for a short scene of Shepard breathing, Bioware is going to meet that demand whether it's a month or a year after release.

You clearly do not understand how game development works and especially Bioware if you think what I said was wrong.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You clearly do not understand how game development works and especially Bioware if you think what I said was wrong.

Given your fail approach to economics, I'm not likely to trust your opinion on what's wrong.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

iakus wrote...

Xellith wrote...

I think DA3 is already in production but I could be completely wrong on this. I'll play it but I wont wont be buying it.

It's kind of an open secret.  Nothing's been officially announced, but they've also said they're not going to announce anything until they have footage to back things up.

Weren't there images released of companion characters?

[Dragoonlordz]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You clearly do not understand how game development works and especially Bioware if you think what I said was wrong.

Given your fail approach to economics, I'm not likely to trust your opinion on what's wrong.

If you plan to continue to assume I fail at economics based on your grasping of thin air, you can't expect me to take what you say seriously anymore.

[AresKeith]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

you don't know what Bioware is planning within their DLCs as much as we don't

I do know for a fact when ME4 (whether prequel, sequel or spin off) comes out there won't be any ME3 DLC being made at that stage anymore. I know for fact that is how Bioware handles DLC and that there is a time frame limitation between one title and the next they use to create DLC for the previous game.

well until they announce a ME4 or hint at it, they the time they need at the moment. And that doesn't really answer my previous comment

[Dragoonlordz]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

iakus wrote...

Xellith wrote...

I think DA3 is already in production but I could be completely wrong on this. I'll play it but I wont wont be buying it.

It's kind of an open secret.  Nothing's been officially announced, but they've also said they're not going to announce anything until they have footage to back things up.

Weren't there images released of companion characters?

No. There was images of character used for the purpose of customisation ideas. No mention of them actually being companions outside of "How nice would it be to have seeker and warden companions in general.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

If you plan to continue to assume I fail at economics based on your grasping of thin air, you can't expect me to take what you say seriously anymore.

You mean like the assumption that mass produced = no fan input? Again, collective action is everything. That customers are rarely able to assume that function does not mean that it does not exist.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 09 septembre 2012 - 06:13 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Seival wrote...

Fiannawolf wrote...

So by your logic the EC is an abomination b/c it alterned and added it stuff to the vanilla ending....

Explanations are not an abomination.

If you failed to understand the original endings, it's your own problem.

I really really love the whole "you just didn't get it" argument, especially coming from people who don't think the EC changed anything. It's just convincing. 

[3DandBeyond]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You clearly do not understand how game development works and especially Bioware if you think what I said was wrong.

Given your fail approach to economics, I'm not likely to trust your opinion on what's wrong.

The problem is here, we have a lot of self-appointed experts who come here and claim to know what BW wants, what they will do, how the video game industry works, and so on.  I am in awe of such knowledge because I know none of what a company that I don't work for or control will do.  I can only guess how the video game industry works (well I do have some insider knowledge because of a relative that works for a big company and a friend that works for a console company), but I try not to bother them about all this stuff.

There are so many erroneous posts here about just what is and isn't done in the real world that I can only assume major use of head canon has been inserted into what is commonly known as real life.

[Dragoonlordz]

AresKeith wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

you don't know what Bioware is planning within their DLCs as much as we don't

I do know for a fact when ME4 (whether prequel, sequel or spin off) comes out there won't be any ME3 DLC being made at that stage anymore. I know for fact that is how Bioware handles DLC and that there is a time frame limitation between one title and the next they use to create DLC for the previous game.

well until they announce a ME4 or hint at it, they the time they need at the moment. And that doesn't really answer my previous comment

I know that for fact they said they are not doing anymore ending DLC.

[BearlyHere]

Archonsg wrote...

I am still curious to see just how well Bioware's next game will sell. Given its a "Command and Conquer" game which appeals to an entirely different genre of players.
More telling, probably Dragon Age 3, if it even gets off the storyboard.

Or another Mass Effect game.

Bioware did buy back some good will wuth the EC, and I know some actually bought Leviathan because they were hoping for a huge impact for a new ending, even ignoring advice to "wait and see".
Even now there are rumblings that Omega would hold the "key" for an alternate end, but seriously, if it isn't obvious by now, the current planned DLCs and BW's own track record indicates that tgey just don't care and want the issues with the ending to be swept aside.

Sad isn't it?
That everything fir the past 5 years to end the way it did?
It could have been remembered fir being the Epic game of the Decade, instead it became a sad reminder that "core fans" are just numbers and that a company's integrity and reputation for doing what is right towards its fans (aka paying customers) means little to nothing.

Exactly. It could have been a game talked about for years and been the standard for others to follow, like Baldur's Gate 2 still is. Now it's becoming a cautionary tale.

It seems to me like a perfect storm of dev burnout, hack writing, impossible deadlines, and corporate overlords who aren't from the gaming world and don't understand the product they're selling. It's sad to see Bioware go this direction. And I also wonder if it's deliberate. Maybe it's one way of getting out of EA's tentacles.