6432 réponses à ce sujet

[wh00ley 06]

saracen16 wrote...

And by "doing the right thing", you will force your demands on everyone who plays the game, and that makes you no better than the Shepard who imposes his will on the galaxy. However, the latter, Shepard, has no choice in that matter, but you do. Your parents in the military would understand that there is no easy way out. Never. The story's ending choices do not advocate any of the choices as a valid course of action for humanity. They only add to debate within the universe. Science fiction is greater for exploring these issues philosophically, as these are the hard questions that will haunt humankind in the years to come.

'Don't force your demands on everyone!'

Has Synthesis sig...

[inversevideo]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Oh, I just love it when people say "NO" to requests like the OP's, and then proceed to get on their high horse and bloviate about living in "the real world" and having to make "hard choices." I have a suspicion that those people are the ones with the least experience in "real life."

Yep. Just like many of the people who say that they play games to get away from all of the pain and no-win situations in real life probably live pretty cushy lives themselves.

This is a joke, right?  I'm not going into detail here, because I have done so before but I've seen and done far more in my life than I'd wish on those like you that I don't see eye to eye with.  I assume you live in the real world and occasionally it's darker moments intrude.

I know about hard choices.  I've had to make life and death choices before for those close to me and those just as dear who were not close to me.  I've watched people die and I've watched people be kept alive in a state somewhere in between.  I've dealt with suicide and homicide, sacrifice and selfishness.  I've helped people live a little before dying when others gave up on them.  And I've counciled parents whose children didn't make it home alive.  And I've learned far more from them than I ever imparted to them.

I will tell you that this is exactly why I play games-and I've played video games since the 1980s.  Real life exists and I've seen plenty of it.  It's pretty demented when it must constantly be inserted into entertainment for some gratuitous reason which ends up being the desire to be taken seriously.  I think Bioware did this.  They made pronouncements that they wanted ME3 to be their "big" game and they wanted it to be like Star Wars.  They said this.  But, they began to get afraid that it would be seen as space fluff.  It didn't have to be, but they were afraid that if they didn't do something supposedly different, it would be seen like that.  But it never was like Star Wars.  I was unique.  It's sad that fans seemed to understand it better than they did.

The sacrifice, the grittiness was there in the aftermath all along.  The art was in the emotion and the stories contained within and it was in the acting and the characters.  All they had to do was give it endings that kept that going, but now we have what we have and I do still think they could rehabilitate it.

+ A Billion! 

[AlanC9]

Warrior Craess wrote...
it may be confusing becuase it's the tail end of a rather large reply pyramid. I simply removed most of the pyramid so that it wouldn't be so cumbersome.

Let me break it down for you. It's a game (hopefully we can all agree on that). In this game we have choices that can be made. As has been pointed out, it doesn't really matter what you choose, becuase in the end you can win the game.

Well, you can make a case that Refuse isn't a win. In the technical sense it is not, since IIRC you don't get the achievement or the Legend save. But I'll go with Stargazer 2 and call it a win

My point, is that those choices only matter based on the context we, the players, give them. This context is based on our interpretations of the game - something dreman9999 has discounted.  According to him there is a literal theme to this game. And that theme is Choice.  

The reason that many of us find the endings so abhorent is that the final choice, the one that should mean the most, actually means the least, becuase it is so disconnected from the rest of the series. The Final choice takes my interpretation of the series and smashes it to smithereens. Why would I then attach any emotional context at all to the final choice?

I'm still not following how the endings change the emotional context of the choices  for you. The emotional value I place on, say, the geth dying, or everyone being synthesized, is based, for me, on what I know about the universe before Shep gets to the Catalyst. It's not dependent on metagame stuff like "themes," which don't exist from Shepard's POV.

I can see how you'd have a different emotional response to the whole game, but not to the stuff inside the game.

The endings are subjective by design. Speculation for everyone = interpretation, not choice. Much of the reason I'm annoyed with BW over this is that they wanted specualtion (interpretation) then told us we're doing it wrong.  Sorry but how can my intrepretation of a subjective ending be wrong? 

Well, I thought that the "wrong" interpretations are wrong about physical facts. like novas destroying all the systems with relays when we actually see two systems that aren't destroyed and none that are destroyed. Or mass effect drives suddenly not working, which isn't suppported by anything.

[Jadebaby]

wh00ley 06 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

And by "doing the right thing", you will force your demands on everyone who plays the game, and that makes you no better than the Shepard who imposes his will on the galaxy. However, the latter, Shepard, has no choice in that matter, but you do. Your parents in the military would understand that there is no easy way out. Never. The story's ending choices do not advocate any of the choices as a valid course of action for humanity. They only add to debate within the universe. Science fiction is greater for exploring these issues philosophically, as these are the hard questions that will haunt humankind in the years to come.

'Don't force your demands on everyone!'

Has Synthesis sig...

[Xellith]

Am I doing it right?

Modifié par Xellith, 30 août 2012 - 08:32 .

[Warrior Craess]

AlanC9 wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

Oh, I just love it when people say "NO" to requests like the OP's, and then proceed to get on their high horse and bloviate about living in "the real world" and having to make "hard choices." I have a suspicion that those people are the ones with the least experience in "real life."

Yep. Just like many of the people who say that they play games to get away from all of the pain and no-win situations in real life probably live pretty cushy lives themselves.

I work in EMS.... so I'm pretty aware of all the terrible things that happen in real life. I don't play games, read books, or watch movies to be reminded about how fracked up live can be. 

[Baa Baa]

Xellith wrote...



Am I doing it right?

Yes

[wh00ley 06]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

wh00ley 06 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

And by "doing the right thing", you will force your demands on everyone who plays the game, and that makes you no better than the Shepard who imposes his will on the galaxy. However, the latter, Shepard, has no choice in that matter, but you do. Your parents in the military would understand that there is no easy way out. Never. The story's ending choices do not advocate any of the choices as a valid course of action for humanity. They only add to debate within the universe. Science fiction is greater for exploring these issues philosophically, as these are the hard questions that will haunt humankind in the years to come.

'Don't force your demands on everyone!'

Has Synthesis sig...

I just find the hypocrisy unbelievable. I was going to stay silent but when I saw this...

[detbasketball13]

Op You speak for me and the rest of Us
well done

[3DandBeyond]

You see, I think I am not unlike a lot of people here. I know something logically will never happen, but I have always got hope. I think the people at Bioware are human after all and I do think many people here have given them ways they could make something work, many different ways. I think that some at Bioware might even want to make something else happen.

The hope I have is wrapped up in this idea that people basically do want to be appreciated and they want people to share in and like what they have created. They love what they have made, I believe that. I believe they've loved Shepard as well and this galaxy and its story. I can't fathom them wanting it to be left a shambles with choices that have no real valid consequences and with others that are unsatisfactory incomplete and in part, less than clear. I don't think most people fundamentally want to fully destroy something they've fretted over for so many years.

I have hope, but little else it's true.

[AresKeith]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

wh00ley 06 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

And by "doing the right thing", you will force your demands on everyone who plays the game, and that makes you no better than the Shepard who imposes his will on the galaxy. However, the latter, Shepard, has no choice in that matter, but you do. Your parents in the military would understand that there is no easy way out. Never. The story's ending choices do not advocate any of the choices as a valid course of action for humanity. They only add to debate within the universe. Science fiction is greater for exploring these issues philosophically, as these are the hard questions that will haunt humankind in the years to come.

'Don't force your demands on everyone!'

Has Synthesis sig...

you can't take them serious

[Xellith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I have hope, but little else it's true.

Without hope…we might as well be machines, programmed to do what we're told..

[Thaa_solon]

Xellith wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I have hope, but little else it's true.

Without hope…we might as well be machines, programmed to do what we're told..

You have hope, more than you know

You can:
Destroy BW
Control BW
Synthesize BW
Refuse BW

And still the "best choices" are still refuse or destroy

[Captain McBuck]

dreman9999 wrote...
Of course it's irrelivent. Limited number can't beat near unlimited numbers especialy if those near unlimitedc numbers canmake unlimtied shock troopers and drones, are extremely hard to kill, needs nor recurces and  can one shot any one of our ships.
It takes a suicide  hit run mission to damage one reaper. How can you do that to a fleet of them? HE HAVE LIMITED everything. That can't beat the reapers numbers at all.

Actually its the Reapers that lose the strength of Number argument, given that we don't have to grind up an entire species into chow to replace one -one- Sovereign class Reaper. so Reaper numbers are no where near unlimited, and reaper ground troops are just as squishy as ours. With TIM's Anti-Reaper signal used as ECM and now Levi's Orbs we could turn the ground fight (ECM is used heavily today in warfare). We built the crucible in what? weeks? Dreadnought production was limited by the council and the treaty of Farixan not our ability to build them

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

clennon8 wrote...
Oh, I just love it when people say "NO" to requests like the OP's, and then proceed to get on their high horse and bloviate about living in "the real world" and having to make "hard choices." I have a suspicion that those people are the ones with the least experience in "real life."

Yep. Just like many of the people who say that they play games to get away from all of the pain and no-win situations in real life probably live pretty cushy lives themselves.

This is a joke, right?  I'm not going into detail here, because I have done so before but I've seen and done far more in my life than I'd wish on those like you that I don't see eye to eye with.  I assume you live in the real world and occasionally it's darker moments intrude.

Surprisingly little, for me. I haven' t had to made a particularly serious decisions since I had them turn my mom's respirator off. And that one, while emotionally hard, was a no-brainer.

I know about hard choices.  I've had to make life and death choices before for those close to me and those just as dear who were not close to me.  I've watched people die and I've watched people be kept alive in a state somewhere in between.  I've dealt with suicide and homicide, sacrifice and selfishness.  I've helped people live a little before dying when others gave up on them.  And I've counciled parents whose children didn't make it home alive.  And I've learned far more from them than I ever imparted to them.

Ummm.... right. I said "many," not all, didn't I? I'm sure there area fair number of players who prefer their games to be nice because their real lives aren't very nice.

You're starting to sound a little traumatized, you know. Much worse than you did a month or two ago.

I will tell you that this is exactly why I play games-and I've played video games since the 1980s.  Real life exists and I've seen plenty of it.  It's pretty demented when it must constantly be inserted into entertainment for some gratuitous reason which ends up being the desire to be taken seriously.

OK. You don't like this stuff intruding into your games. I do. Now what?

[Massa FX]

Why can't people that don't agree with the OP make their own thread? Why is there discussion on a thread addressed to Bioware and clearly the OP is leaving a message for Bioware.

It's ok not to agree but why not start your own thread with your thoughts?

[Warrior Craess]

AlanC9 wrote...

My point, is that those choices only matter based on the context we, the players, give them. This context is based on our interpretations of the game - something dreman9999 has discounted.  According to him there is a literal theme to this game. And that theme is Choice.  

The reason that many of us find the endings so abhorent is that the final choice, the one that should mean the most, actually means the least, becuase it is so disconnected from the rest of the series. The Final choice takes my interpretation of the series and smashes it to smithereens. Why would I then attach any emotional context at all to the final choice?

I'm still not following how the endings change the emotional context of the choices  for you. The emotional value I place on, say, the geth dying, or everyone being synthesized, is based, for me, on what I know about the universe before Shep gets to the Catalyst. It's not dependent on metagame stuff like "themes," which don't exist from Shepard's POV.

I can see how you'd have a different emotional response to the whole game, but not to the stuff inside the game.

I find there to be no emotional context for a couple of reasons.  1st being that none of them match my own psycholigical profile. 2nd, there is no complexity to them. 

Gee if I truly want to stop the cycles of harvesting, I gotta make everyone in the universe into some weird synthetic/organic hybrid..  otherwise I really on delay the inevitable.

Gee if I want to truly destroy the reapers, I only got 1 option.. destroy them and the geth and EDI.

Gee if I want to be a powerhungry tyrant/despot I choose control.

Sorry I don't see any moral conflict in that set of choices.

It's not 3 different ways to destroy the reapers, each with their own emotional context. It's very simple set of options with no vested interest in at least 2 of them. Destroy being the only one that involves more than just personal sacrifice on shepards part.

The endings are subjective by design. Speculation for everyone = interpretation, not choice. Much of the reason I'm annoyed with BW over this is that they wanted specualtion (interpretation) then told us we're doing it wrong.  Sorry but how can my intrepretation of a subjective ending be wrong? 

Well, I thought that the "wrong" interpretations are wrong about physical facts. like novas destroying all the systems with relays when we actually see two systems that aren't destroyed and none that are destroyed. Or mass effect drives suddenly not working, which isn't suppported by anything.

prior to the ending of ME3 the only demonstration we have of a relay being destroyed results in a super nova like explosion. You see nothing of the systems (aside from the garden planet) after the relays explode.

So many people interpreted this to mean, either the relays exploded and killed almost everyone, or even with Mass effect drives still up that Galactic travel was no longer valid.

My interpretation of the pre-EC endings was very bleak, and involved a lot of people starving to death. Sad part was I could back most of it up mathematically.

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 30 août 2012 - 08:51 .

[Xellith]

Thaa_solon wrote...

Xellith wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I have hope, but little else it's true.

Without hope…we might as well be machines, programmed to do what we're told..

You have hope, more than you know

You can:
Destroy BW
Control BW
Synthesize BW
Refuse BW

And still the "best choices" are still refuse or destroy

I always choose destroy...

I didnt make this pic but I found it funny... but dont be suprised if I get banned for like a month @.@

[Archonsg]

I no longer post as much in the story / campaign forums simply because I do honestly think that Bioware just doesn't care. Its a business, it made a mistake and choose to actively defend that mistake.

I have said this before but I'll repeat it for one last time, I play Bioware Games because they are games where I leave with an experience that we did something heroic, feeling uplifted and achieving the impossible, not effing forced by writing direction to choose a method of suicide.

ME 3 was great. Right up to the end.
As much as people hated some of the silly things in ME2, (Human Reaper Larvae) the "Suicide Mission" was amazingly well done and gave the player "true" choice as to how he or she wanted to proceed with the game.
Loose, Pyrrhic victory or most importantly, heroically against all odds, not only make it out alive but save everyone that mattered.

ME3 could have been the same.
Except talking about it now I just feel angry again.
Now I just mostly play ME3 MP.
I think I have an excess of 20K or 25K in war assets if I do all side quests, but hey, that means as much as ****** on a Hanar.

Didn't buy Leviathan though. I heard it was pretty good, Shadow Broker DLC good, but when I tried to get excited about it, I just keep thinking that in the end, it doesn't really matter. I still got an "FU" ending that ends with the "artistic vision" that murdered my Shepard's soul.

[Thaa_solon]

Xellith wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

Xellith wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I have hope, but little else it's true.

Without hope…we might as well be machines, programmed to do what we're told..

You have hope, more than you know

You can:
Destroy BW
Control BW
Synthesize BW
Refuse BW

And still the "best choices" are still refuse or destroy

I always choose destroy...

I didnt make this pic but I found it funny... but dont be suprised if I get banned for like a month @.@

LOL'd

[Baa Baa]

Xellith wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

Xellith wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I have hope, but little else it's true.

Without hope…we might as well be machines, programmed to do what we're told..

You have hope, more than you know

You can:
Destroy BW
Control BW
Synthesize BW
Refuse BW

And still the "best choices" are still refuse or destroy

I always choose destroy...

I didnt make this pic but I found it funny... but dont be suprised if I get banned for like a month @.@

RUN RUN MOTHA ****A!!!!

[Xellith]

Okay but Bioware gets destroyed. What hypothetically speaking would be the collateral damage?  Destroy needs a downside as well as the other options.  Apparantly.  Like Bioware destroyed but all pigs are made extinct.

Modifié par Xellith, 30 août 2012 - 08:48 .

[Baa Baa]

Xellith wrote...

Okay but Bioware gets destroyed. What hypothetically speaking would be the collateral damage?  Destroy needs a downside as well as the other options.  Apparantly.  Like Bioware destroyed but all pigs are made extinct.

Destroying all seafood in existance would be an extreme downside for me at least.

[Thaa_solon]

Xellith wrote...

Okay but Bioware gets destroyed. What hypothetically speaking would be the collateral damage?  Destroy needs a downside as well as the other options.  Apparantly.  Like Bioware destroyed but all pigs are made extinct.

Hmmm

Downside: epic games combine forces with EA and LJN(company who made horrible NES games) to make ME4

A rail mmorpg fetchquest farmville type game with horrible graphics