6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Epique Phael767]

I wish EA could see all the hate they've received. This was in part bioware's fault, but the way I see i, it's 75% EA, 10% Bioware, 15% Mac walters.

[Iakus]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Perhaps I'm in the wrong line of thought, but I never expected to lose Commander Shepard. I thouht I might lose [Shepard's] friends, but not Shepard. After all the feats Shepard has accomplished: barely getting out of the facility on Therum, stopping Saren (the galaxy's best Spectre) and Sovereign, surviving the destruction of the Normandy at the hands of the Collectors and coming back as Terminator 2.0, surviving several cases of alcohol poisoning, headbutting a Krogan clan leader on Tuchanka, killing a Thresher Maw, saving his squad multiple times over, blowing up a Geth space station, annihilating the Collectors and coming out of a suicide mission unscathed, going toe-to-toe with the Reapers, fighting hordes of husks, geth, mercs, risking their neck innumerable times while the galaxy is fighting the ultimate war of attrition against giant, omnipotent space cuttlefish; the list goes on.

"The **** you did..." I didn't think it was possible for you to die.

Shepard's death was still always a possibility in the back of my mind, but if they were going to die, they had better "Go out with the biggest ****ing bang the world has ever seen!" Instead, our protaganist either dies by giving themself up in a ritualistic sacrafice to save the galaxy or they asphyxiate under a pile of rubble on the Citadel. Both are incredibly weak and painfully contrived. What the hell is the point of anything, be it dramatic effect, symbolism, thematic recurrence, etc, if it is not a naturally occurring part of the story?

I would be upset if Shepard died, but I would expect them to go out in a blaze of glory, to go out like Dom in GoW3, Jack Sparrow in Dead Man's Chest, Ashley/Kaidan on Virmire, Minh Young Kim in GoW, Grunt on Utukku, John Marston in RDR, Noble 6 in Halo:Reach, Duncan in DA:O, Liam Neeson in The Grey...

To end it all like that... it is insulting; to Mass Effect, to the player, and above all, to Shepard.

Agreed.  I expected there to be endings where Shepard died.  But if this is the end of Shepard's story, then there should have been endings where Shepard has a real shot at happiness.   Sure the galaxy is freed, so there's a "happy ending"  But what about Shepard's personal journey?  Does the best case scenerio really have to be "buried under rubble, but alive"? This is where a five year journey ends?  This is a "ray of hope"?

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Perhaps I'm in the wrong line of thought, but I never expected to lose Commander Shepard. I thouht I might lose [Shepard's] friends, but not Shepard. After all the feats Shepard has accomplished: barely getting out of the facility on Therum, stopping Saren (the galaxy's best Spectre) and Sovereign, surviving the destruction of the Normandy at the hands of the Collectors and coming back as Terminator 2.0, surviving several cases of alcohol poisoning, headbutting a Krogan clan leader on Tuchanka, killing a Thresher Maw, saving his squad multiple times over, blowing up a Geth space station, annihilating the Collectors and coming out of a suicide mission unscathed, going toe-to-toe with the Reapers, fighting hordes of husks, geth, mercs, risking their neck innumerable times while the galaxy is fighting the ultimate war of attrition against giant, omnipotent space cuttlefish; the list goes on.

"The **** you did..." I didn't think it was possible for you to die.

Shepard's death was still always a possibility in the back of my mind, but if they were going to die, they had better "Go out with the biggest ****ing bang the world has ever seen!" Instead, our protaganist either dies by giving themself up in a ritualistic sacrafice to save the galaxy or they asphyxiate under a pile of rubble on the Citadel. Both are incredibly weak and painfully contrived. What the hell is the point of anything, be it dramatic effect, symbolism, thematic recurrence, etc, if it is not a naturally occurring part of the story?

I would be upset if Shepard died, but I would expect them to go out in a blaze of glory, to go out like Dom in GoW3, Jack Sparrow in Dead Man's Chest, Ashley/Kaidan on Virmire, Minh Young Kim in GoW, Grunt on Utukku, John Marston in RDR, Noble 6 in Halo:Reach, Duncan in DA:O, Liam Neeson in The Grey...

To end it all like that... it is insulting; to Mass Effect, to the player, and above all, to Shepard.

Agreed.  I expected there to be endings where Shepard died.  But if this is the end of Shepard's story, then there should have been endings where Shepard has a real shot at happiness.   Sure the galaxy is freed, so there's a "happy ending"  But what about Shepard's personal journey?  Does the best case scenerio really have to be "buried under rubble, but alive"? This is where a five year journey ends?  This is a "ray of hope"?

That's the thing for me as well.  I always thought that there'd be some great really heartwrenching scene where maybe Shepard died or friends or LI did and all while trying to save the whole galaxy.  I prepared for that real possibility if I screwed up.  And I knew that that would hurt but always figured since Shepard was the hero and they'd always allowed us a way to win and bring the hero home, there'd be a way to get the job done.  I never wanted just some super sappy, Shepard must live pile of poop.  I thought it would be tough either way but bad decisions, wrong moves, maybe even trying to do something good would lead to some sad scene of others watching Shepard die.  And then different things leading to other sad outcomes but then one way to win it all and save who you can and who you care about.

I have no feeling that any of these things happened at the end.  And so, it often just boils down to wanting at least one good thing to come out of it.  I'd rather there be variations and then scenes of people in shocked disbelief trying to pick up the pieces and stand up and go on.  And one where Shepard is there to help them do so.

[Zan51]

Seival wrote...

Fiannawolf wrote...

Sei, I do understand the Endings, both vanilla and EC. They are all illogical within series lore. B/C unlike Weeks and the other people who made Rannoch and Genophage so much win, the ball was dropped badly at the last second. You cant go All DE Human Rev in the last 10 mins. Thats not the type of Sci fi that ME is. Its a hybrid of B5 get everyone together vs Shadows/Vorlons and some Star Trek explore new worlds thrown in.

Please, don't compare sci-fi ME and DE:HR with political/adventure movies like B5 and ST. Those are completely different types of stories.

If you like political/adventure stories, go and play ST Online or BG Online. Just please, stop asking BioWare to ruin their own story.

Sorry, but Babylon 5 is a genre trhat is old and now well respected called Space Opera, not political and adventure movies. If you don't know that, then you obviously didn't understand anything about Bab5. And same applies to ME series, it is Space Opera.
From here - http://www.sfrevu.co...ined/Review.htm

" Space opera used to be a pejorative locution designating not a subgenre or mode at all, but the worst form of formulaic hackwork: really bad SF.
A lot of people don't remember this and that distorts our understanding of both our present and our past in SF. Perfectly intelligent but ignorant people are writing revisionist history, inventing an elaborate age of space opera based on wholesale redefinitions of the term made up in the sixties and seventies to justify literary political agendas. "

Succinctly put, it was redefined by Del Ray and Leigh Brackett, who wrote the script for The Empire Strikes, to be "henceforth, space opera meant, and still generally means, colorful, dramatic, large scale science fiction adventure, competently and sometimes beautifully written, usually focussed on a sympathetic, heroic central character, and plot action [this bit is what separates it from other literary postmodernisms] and usually set in the relatively distant future and in space or on other worlds, characteristically optimistic in tone. What is centrally important is that this permits a writer to embark on a science fiction project that is ambitious in both commercial
and literary terms."

"And so in the popular mind, within a few years, Star Wars was conflated with Star Trek fiction to contour the new image of space opera: by the mid-1980s space opera  was a code term in US marketing circles for bestselling popular SF entertainment."

Ergo, Mass Effect and Babylon 5 are Space Opers. And if you don't understand that, go read the whole article and understand it is written about a history of writing SF and by people who actually know what they are talking about, unklike you.

Modifié par Zan51, 10 septembre 2012 - 06:59 .

[Zan51]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

This is without me having to go into the fact their is a limited time frame to DLC and what x wants takes time and money away from what y wants within that time limit.

Technically not. The time frame is whatever the fans give it. If two million fans were willing to pay $10 for a short scene of Shepard breathing, Bioware is going to meet that demand whether it's a month or a year after release.

You clearly do not understand how game development works and especially Bioware if you think what I said was wrong.

Did you know how Game Development is going in the very near future? I've seen no mention of this article here.  Try this - http://www.egmnow.co...-items-to-sell/

"Sony Online Entertainment has announced the SOE Player Studio which is designed to give creative customers a way to create their own in-gameitems and then sell them.
User-generated content has had a place in SOE games for quite some time, however the Player Studio is different because it allows players to make a profit. According to SOE, players can “download sample
geometry for actual in-game objects and through the use of third party art tools, learn how to develop, design and personalize items of their own.”
After the created item has passed the approval process it can be purchased by other players from the SOE Marketplace and the creator willget 40 percent of the net amount that SOE receives from the sale."

THIS is gonna open a huge can of worms in the gaming industry! Bioware will have to follow suit or fall behind!

Modifié par Zan51, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:22 .

[Redbelle]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...


As someone who has done private beta testing this is a truly funny thing.   Mass produced items are particularly exposed to fan input.  They cost a lot to create and require a lot of fans to make money.

One thing I do know is that video games are extremely expensive to make and their profit margins are very slim.  They truly cannot afford to turn away many paying customers.

If you think that then Bioware should drop Mass Effect and make Mass Warfare FPS, after all more people like FPS so why would they not want more money and more fans from a genre which has more of both? You want them to have more fans and therefore more money but only if they continue to make what you want.

Who said thats not what EA and Bioware planned? Why even bother with the no decision style of play, if your not testing for this very possiblity? Why take away resource space, and time, if your simply not going to be making any more games for this franchise?   Why take the chance of hurting your flagship game if you didn't have other plans for it? 

That's exactly the fear I have.  It's so funny really that the person that sooo cares about Bioware is the one that keeps telling people to go away and now is suggesting they make FPSs or trying to imply that that's even related to this thread at all.  The only relationship it has with all this is in that I hope they don't head in that direction and had dragoon read my OP, s/he would know that.  I'd prefer they have the resources to make this style of game-the unique thing that so far only they are doing.

It seems to me that going FPS would be a step back. Not only for the ME franchise but for BW who have pushed their brand of RPG ahead of alot of the competition.

[3DandBeyond]

Zan51 wrote...

Did you know how Game Development is going in the very near future? I've seen no mention of this article here.  Try this - http://www.egmnow.co...-items-to-sell/

"Sony Online Entertainment has announced the SOE Player Studio which is designed to give creative customers a way to create their own in-gameitems and then sell them.
User-generated content has had a place in SOE games for quite some time, however the Player Studio is different because it allows players to make a profit. According to SOE, players can “download sample
geometry for actual in-game objects and through the use of third party art tools, learn how to develop, design and personalize items of their own.”
After the created item has passed the approval process it can be purchased by other players from the SOE Marketplace and the creator willget 40 percent of the net amount that SOE receives from the sale."

THIS is gonna open a huge can of worms in the gaming industry! Bioware will have to follow suit or fall behind!

This is very interesting.  Way back when Little Big Planet (number 1) was announced, its devs had talked about players being able to create levels and selling them-they intended to be the first game to create player millionaires.  Seriously.  For anyone that doesn't know it, LBP and LBP2 give players tools (once they've completed dev-created levels), to create their own levels.  There was originally this idea that these levels would be sold in-game to others.  At some point Media Molecule decided they'd be free, but I do know they have sites dedicated to player suggestions for new games-in fact, they incorporated ideas fans had in LBP to LBP2 and have some player created ideas that they even promote.  Some glitches actually get consideration for being added to the official level creation tools.

What this means and the implications of both of these things is that some companies are recognizing the desire of fans to mod games and to even fully create their own stories/games/worlds.  They embrace the idea.  Doesn't mean BW games should all be player creations, but if some devs recognize the value of player participation in the process and are lauded for it by players, other devs have to take note.

[George Costanza]

I was fully prepared for Shepard to die. But I also expected there to be multiple endings. Like, actual multiple endings, with a "best" ending where Shepard saves the galaxy, is a hero, has cocktails with Garrus and goes home with Tali. And an awful one where most/all of his squad die and he is killed at the finale. And all the ones in between.

In the end it was just essentially Human Revolution's ending. Which seems like a daft move considering how derided that ending was.

[Redbelle]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Zan51 wrote...

Did you know how Game Development is going in the very near future? I've seen no mention of this article here.  Try this - http://www.egmnow.co...-items-to-sell/

"Sony Online Entertainment has announced the SOE Player Studio which is designed to give creative customers a way to create their own in-gameitems and then sell them.
User-generated content has had a place in SOE games for quite some time, however the Player Studio is different because it allows players to make a profit. According to SOE, players can “download sample
geometry for actual in-game objects and through the use of third party art tools, learn how to develop, design and personalize items of their own.”
After the created item has passed the approval process it can be purchased by other players from the SOE Marketplace and the creator willget 40 percent of the net amount that SOE receives from the sale."

THIS is gonna open a huge can of worms in the gaming industry! Bioware will have to follow suit or fall behind!

This is very interesting.  Way back when Little Big Planet (number 1) was announced, its devs had talked about players being able to create levels and selling them-they intended to be the first game to create player millionaires.  Seriously.  For anyone that doesn't know it, LBP and LBP2 give players tools (once they've completed dev-created levels), to create their own levels.  There was originally this idea that these levels would be sold in-game to others.  At some point Media Molecule decided they'd be free, but I do know they have sites dedicated to player suggestions for new games-in fact, they incorporated ideas fans had in LBP to LBP2 and have some player created ideas that they even promote.  Some glitches actually get consideration for being added to the official level creation tools.

What this means and the implications of both of these things is that some companies are recognizing the desire of fans to mod games and to even fully create their own stories/games/worlds.  They embrace the idea.  Doesn't mean BW games should all be player creations, but if some devs recognize the value of player participation in the process and are lauded for it by players, other devs have to take note.

The ST MMO already has a thriving user generated content community designed to get players creating the missions. Saves alot of time for the developers and keeps user interest going in the product.

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...


It seems to me that going FPS would be a step back. Not only for the ME franchise but for BW who have pushed their brand of RPG ahead of alot of the competition.

Thisis very much the thing.  There's nothing wrong with BW creating an FPS.  Great, go for it.  But why ever would they have to make one out of ME?  Or, why not continue the RPG as a series as is (or franchise, I should say) and have an FPS with MP or some such that is related but does not preclude still making the RPG?  However, I know that EA recently stated that every game they release will now have an MP mode.  Ugh.  While it's great to play games with other people, I honestly think that they don't get it.  Not everyone is alike and just loves MP and while people from all demographics play online, it largely appeals to a fairly narrow group.  They play it a lot so I think it tends to look like a lot more people are playing than actually are. 

I can tell you (and this is not typical I know), but in my immediate family there are 15 of us and I'm the only one that plays FPS or any type of shooter MP and I make up for them not playing it.  And most of those in my family are younger than me.  I have a lot of real life friends that are much younger than I am and none of them play MP of any kind.  Most of the people on my friend's lists on the PS3 (with free online play) and on the xbox360 don't play FPS MP.

It's actually quite odd that of all the people I know, I am the one that most often plays MP and FPSs and I'm an older female.  And in my family (again, I know not typical) there are 12 consoles owned and 6 handhelds (DS, 3DS, Vita) as well as tablets and smartphones with games.  Just saying people play a lot of games in my family.  I think this narrow-minded focus toward MMOs and MP indicates a company view of a desperation to make money.  I'm not basing things only on my personal view of things, but again on what is reported on the internet to be a changing demographics as far as gaming goes.  FPS MP mainly appeals to one ever decreasing segment-I mean the size of the group it's geared to appeal to is getting smaller, but other different groups try it-most of those get bored with it very quickly.  And some of them are getting increasingly tired of it.  It's especially annoying for people that have limited playtime and when they play it's full of glitchers and the like.  Casual gamers tend to run from it like the plague.

CoD remains at the top as far as MP and the model BW and EA use for the F2P map DLC and for pay equipment packs would truly draw ire if the MP was anything but coop or horde mode.  If this became a CoD like game where you play against other players, then it would become a pay to win type game where the person who invested the most money into the thing would have the best equipment or characters.  I'd rather pay for maps.

[3DandBeyond]

George Costanza wrote...

I was fully prepared for Shepard to die. But I also expected there to be multiple endings. Like, actual multiple endings, with a "best" ending where Shepard saves the galaxy, is a hero, has cocktails with Garrus and goes home with Tali. And an awful one where most/all of his squad die and he is killed at the finale. And all the ones in between.

In the end it was just essentially Human Revolution's ending. Which seems like a daft move considering how derided that ending was.

Yes, exactly.  It would have been so great to have your attempts and decisions and then how you played at the end decide the end you got and not an artificial choice.  It would have tied the reward and your success to your actions just like all good games do.  Even checkers and other board games we played as small children tied winning to what you did in the game.  If you got smacked by your opponent, you wanted to play again in order to see if you could get a different outcome.  But in ME3, you can pretty much not even play a lot of the game, play MP, and you get the same choices to finish it.  This does not reward gameplay.

[Oransel]

I understand your feelings, but I don't see sense in asking Bioware to do anything. They are just not listening. Because they don't want to acknowledge the disaster called ME3 being what it is. Only a miracle can change ME3 into a decent game now - new CEO or sudden new appointment of new Project Lead, whatever.

[3DandBeyond]

Redbelle wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Zan51 wrote...

Did you know how Game Development is going in the very near future? I've seen no mention of this article here.  Try this - http://www.egmnow.co...-items-to-sell/

"Sony Online Entertainment has announced the SOE Player Studio which is designed to give creative customers a way to create their own in-gameitems and then sell them.
User-generated content has had a place in SOE games for quite some time, however the Player Studio is different because it allows players to make a profit. According to SOE, players can “download sample
geometry for actual in-game objects and through the use of third party art tools, learn how to develop, design and personalize items of their own.”
After the created item has passed the approval process it can be purchased by other players from the SOE Marketplace and the creator willget 40 percent of the net amount that SOE receives from the sale."

THIS is gonna open a huge can of worms in the gaming industry! Bioware will have to follow suit or fall behind!

This is very interesting.  Way back when Little Big Planet (number 1) was announced, its devs had talked about players being able to create levels and selling them-they intended to be the first game to create player millionaires.  Seriously.  For anyone that doesn't know it, LBP and LBP2 give players tools (once they've completed dev-created levels), to create their own levels.  There was originally this idea that these levels would be sold in-game to others.  At some point Media Molecule decided they'd be free, but I do know they have sites dedicated to player suggestions for new games-in fact, they incorporated ideas fans had in LBP to LBP2 and have some player created ideas that they even promote.  Some glitches actually get consideration for being added to the official level creation tools.

What this means and the implications of both of these things is that some companies are recognizing the desire of fans to mod games and to even fully create their own stories/games/worlds.  They embrace the idea.  Doesn't mean BW games should all be player creations, but if some devs recognize the value of player participation in the process and are lauded for it by players, other devs have to take note.

The ST MMO already has a thriving user generated content community designed to get players creating the missions. Saves alot of time for the developers and keeps user interest going in the product.

This is something that EA should get.  Ever hear of Sim City and the Sims?  Those are of course extremes of player generated content because that's how you play.  But they have been wildly successful.  Just look at all the expansion packs for each generation of the Sims.  And then look at all the websites for it for user created customization (even for pay sites).

I'm not saying this shows people should have total control over ME3 and the story (though it would be fun if they released tools where you could create your own missions), but it indicates that games often do best when they allow true player interactivity.  Players want games they are involved in and not games that play themselves.  That's part of why ME was so successful and why the ME3 endings are way off.  ME put you in the world, you interacted with it, you determined the direction, you made the decisions.  At the end of ME3, the game plays itself with you hitting buttons to ask questions that change nothing.  All you are doing is adding dialogue to the big ending cutscene.  And, you don't determine the direction of the game-you have 4 at best directions that are all pre-determined for you and don't differ from player to player by much at all.

I'm not saying this should be The Sims: Mass Effect, but neither should it be CoD: Mass Effect or a linear game or like some huge cutscene that you just move your character forward to watch.  The key is in player input and interaction and that's what a lot of other games and companies have realized.  Even EA knows this.

[Iakus]

Oransel wrote...

I understand your feelings, but I don't see sense in asking Bioware to do anything. They are just not listening. Because they don't want to acknowledge the disaster called ME3 being what it is. Only a miracle can change ME3 into a decent game now - new CEO or sudden new appointment of new Project Lead, whatever.

I'm not asking for ME3 to be changed into a "decent game"  What we have is what we have at this point,  EDI will never have a dignified death.  The Catalyst will always be with us. RGB will be the only "valid" choices.

All I'm asking is for one ending to be upbeat enough that I can find the game replayable.  One ending where Shepard gets off the CItadel alive.  And is not left gasping in debris or outright dead.

[Oransel]

iakus wrote...

Oransel wrote...

I understand your feelings, but I don't see sense in asking Bioware to do anything. They are just not listening. Because they don't want to acknowledge the disaster called ME3 being what it is. Only a miracle can change ME3 into a decent game now - new CEO or sudden new appointment of new Project Lead, whatever.

I'm not asking for ME3 to be changed into a "decent game"  What we have is what we have at this point,  EDI will never have a dignified death.  The Catalyst will always be with us. RGB will be the only "valid" choices.

All I'm asking is for one ending to be upbeat enough that I can find the game replayable.  One ending where Shepard gets off the CItadel alive.  And is not left gasping in debris or outright dead.

I understand that, but even that won't be done if managers and writers will still be in power. They simply won't allow you to have a good ending. Because of them being jerks.

[3DandBeyond]

Oransel wrote...

iakus wrote...

Oransel wrote...

I understand your feelings, but I don't see sense in asking Bioware to do anything. They are just not listening. Because they don't want to acknowledge the disaster called ME3 being what it is. Only a miracle can change ME3 into a decent game now - new CEO or sudden new appointment of new Project Lead, whatever.

I'm not asking for ME3 to be changed into a "decent game"  What we have is what we have at this point,  EDI will never have a dignified death.  The Catalyst will always be with us. RGB will be the only "valid" choices.

All I'm asking is for one ending to be upbeat enough that I can find the game replayable.  One ending where Shepard gets off the CItadel alive.  And is not left gasping in debris or outright dead.

I understand that, but even that won't be done if managers and writers will still be in power. They simply won't allow you to have a good ending. Because of them being jerks.

Well, I don't personally know them so I can't agree with this.  I don't think they purposely set out to ****** off their fanbase.  I think they failed to understand it to some extent and I think they neglected it (I think somewhere there is a real misunderstanding of everything here).  Part of it is in that I do think they have in some cases missed the message fans send.  For instance, way before ME3 came out a fan posted and said "I hope they don't do this in ME3" and they did exactly almost word for word what he hoped they would not do. 

Then, the original endings came out and speculation was everywhere.  In the "yes, we are listening" stickied thread people posted what they thought the endings meant and they said some things made no sense-a lot of things didn't.  They joked at what might be meant by all of it.  And they said that they hoped BW didn't mean these things they joked about.  And that's exactly what was put into the EC.

The problem seems to me to be that whoever is telling them this is what fans want is actually feeding them what fans DO NOT want.  So, it's like if I say today that I hope the next DLC is not about dancing clowns, I'm afraid it will be about dancing clowns.  I really think they need to review where the feedback is coming from and who is collecting it, because whoever it is is doing a terrible job.  I think this is how it was decided people want this to be more action heavy and less story focused, less decision making and more "me shoot, me kill".  If they continue using content that people say is exactly what they don't want, then I think the end comes fully into focus and they are doing themselves a disservice.

I also believe there seems to be some duelling ideas at work and they are not all getting coordinated very well-you can see this with dialogue within ME3 that is out of order, chronologically and even some that does not match what the character is saying.  There's some dialogue that answers a completely different question or statement that a character makes.

I think they are a bit misguided in a lot of ways.  It's almost like someone is intentionally sabotaging them (if one were to think conspiracy).  They have the worst PR ever-and way too many people talking all the time and not in agreement with each other.  There's no coordinated message-it's fine to have individual ideas but if you can't even agree on the direction the game was to go then this indicates internal problems.  And there is this protective attitude that is detrimental to their business health.  I say this because they seem to have gotten really upset over the leaked script (or not, because they seem to purposely leak things).  A leaked script is merely tantalizing and fun for fans, and it's not meant to be destructive.  It adds to hype and interest and they should have had some fun with it and not gotten so worried or even mad.

I think they are people and they really need to show that.  I know that the BSN became like a no man's land for them, but they should have and could have taken it back.  Fans need to be responsible too and remember that they are human beings with similar aspirations to anyone else.  We all want to be appreciated for what we do.  We tend to want to do our best.  We don't want to be hated for it.  We mostly don't set out to make people unhappy (well, some people do but I doubt everyone at BW wants to or they wouldn't make games).  And we want to be rewarded for our efforts.  The last 2 things are key-prime reasons why people play games and people create them.  See, we agree with BW far more than we think we do.

I won't slam them for being flawed people-I say this because we are all flawed.  I don't make everyone happy either.  I doubt that anyone does.  You do your best and I do think they try.  I do just think that there's been so much noise and all over this whole debacle that it would be great for them to reassess what they did best and what fans loved the most.  And they need to really focus on that-what fans have loved.

[Chashan]

iakus wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...
[...]

I would be upset if Shepard died, but I would expect them to go out in a blaze of glory, to go out like Dom in GoW3, Jack Sparrow in Dead Man's Chest, Ashley/Kaidan on Virmire, Minh Young Kim in GoW, Grunt on Utukku, John Marston in RDR, Noble 6 in Halo:Reach, Duncan in DA:O, Liam Neeson in The Grey...

To end it all like that... it is insulting; to Mass Effect, to the player, and above all, to Shepard.

Agreed.  I expected there to be endings where Shepard died.  But if this is the end of Shepard's story, then there should have been endings where Shepard has a real shot at happiness.   Sure the galaxy is freed, so there's a "happy ending"  But what about Shepard's personal journey?  Does the best case scenerio really have to be "buried under rubble, but alive"? This is where a five year journey ends?  This is a "ray of hope"?

I have got to admit that, personally, I would be fine with the high EMS-Destroy ending bit as is.

Shepards surviving, pulling through by rather blunt implication too, is enough for me to stick to it as the clearest, most sensible ending out of what is served.
If the developers so desired to leave it at that, I would be fine, to be honest.
Although I sure can see why, as expressed here and elsewhere, this feels rather...incomplete to some, and as such, I would ultimately not mind them expanding upon it, giving Shepards the send-off they well and truly deserve. If this "waking up" were it, however, I would still accept that, until such a time BW decided to continue the series.

For, as I expressed elsewhere before: if Bioware decide to continue the series past ME3, Destroy is the only one end that truly makes sense as a canon-choice, continuity-wise, even more so if Shepards remain the protagonists. Although granting them a well-deserved retirement would be perfectly fine at the end of the day.

That does not mean I would mind if Bioware belatedly did what they should have done in the first place: have the Wunderwaffe do what it is supposed to do when the most straight-forward choice for it, Red, is taken. And not create a false "balance" between the endings, with different flavours of ashes tacked on, only to appease an online-chart of how often certain endings were taken (and even failing with that, as evidenced by graspable data near enough everywhere).
The coloured pills appeal to different people, with different tastes at the end of the day, and I can see why some prefer to pick and choose at will from the spectrum presented at the end. In other games where different choices are presented, I can pick and choose between options given as well, and even the presence of such options I simply would never choose I can appreciate, as such an embroadened playing-field of different scenarios does enrich the experience.
However, creating a false dilemma of a friendly fire-situation with what still amounts to be the least fantastic choice was the wrong way to go about this. Not after one of the worst encounters with the villains' mastermind-figure I have witnessed in a video game recently.


So, in short (sorta), to be an absolutely happy camper about this game, I would hardly require a substantial lot of "revisioning" and "change" to make ME3 a well-rounded experience, far as I myself am concerned: a clear shot at a Wunderwaffe that does work as advertised, and clears out the antagonists of the game, who are shown time and again engaging in abhorrent atrocities on screen, and have been doing so according to the lore for countless eons.
It was my expectation that it would do that going in, a reasonable one I would like to think. And the only, tiny bit that would be required to make that work is admirably show-cased in the following fan-made montage:
www.youtube.com/watch

(note I skip the "cut" of the thing's monologue dialogue there, although I will admit that hardly anything of worth is lost with that thing not present; I could still let it pass, with just that slide altered - even if it were merely shown how the Quarians, after having made peace with their creations, are shown trying to reactivate the Geth  - even if EDI would still suffer non-functionality, as she herself terms it, it would be fine for me.)

Hardly a lot of effort. And the creepy experience of Blue and the potentially flowery - if, IMHO, badly executed - outlook of Green would still be untouched. I could look past the lacklustre-Priority: Earth to boot, with just that little effort given.

And as for the choice of outright dismissing the thing's game...I would consider that one to be reasonably ambiguous as is, unlike other things that were done in the finale in the past. Lots of meta-gaming fun to be had with that.

[Fiannawolf]

THey could easily edit that type of ending into refusal. IE everyone survives but with heavy losses prehaps? Or like the OP on youtube said: Use it for a "Victory" ending.

Good points Chashan.

BTW thx everyone who helped with the B5 examples I want peeps to experience good sci fi. Maybe one day more people will watch that show. Mass Effect had so many elements from other places:

Bladerunner, BSG, B5, Dune, Terminator, ST, and the list goes on and on.

[3DandBeyond]

Chashan wrote...

iakus wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...
[...]

I would be upset if Shepard died, but I would expect them to go out in a blaze of glory, to go out like Dom in GoW3, Jack Sparrow in Dead Man's Chest, Ashley/Kaidan on Virmire, Minh Young Kim in GoW, Grunt on Utukku, John Marston in RDR, Noble 6 in Halo:Reach, Duncan in DA:O, Liam Neeson in The Grey...

To end it all like that... it is insulting; to Mass Effect, to the player, and above all, to Shepard.

Agreed.  I expected there to be endings where Shepard died.  But if this is the end of Shepard's story, then there should have been endings where Shepard has a real shot at happiness.   Sure the galaxy is freed, so there's a "happy ending"  But what about Shepard's personal journey?  Does the best case scenerio really have to be "buried under rubble, but alive"? This is where a five year journey ends?  This is a "ray of hope"?

I have got to admit that, personally, I would be fine with the high EMS-Destroy ending bit as is.

Shepards surviving, pulling through by rather blunt implication too, is enough for me to stick to it as the clearest, most sensible ending out of what is served.
If the developers so desired to leave it at that, I would be fine, to be honest.
Although I sure can see why, as expressed here and elsewhere, this feels rather...incomplete to some, and as such, I would ultimately not mind them expanding upon it, giving Shepards the send-off they well and truly deserve. If this "waking up" were it, however, I would still accept that, until such a time BW decided to continue the series.

For, as I expressed elsewhere before: if Bioware decide to continue the series past ME3, Destroy is the only one end that truly makes sense as a canon-choice, continuity-wise, even more so if Shepards remain the protagonists. Although granting them a well-deserved retirement would be perfectly fine at the end of the day.

That does not mean I would mind if Bioware belatedly did what they should have done in the first place: have the Wunderwaffe do what it is supposed to do when the most straight-forward choice for it, Red, is taken. And not create a false "balance" between the endings, with different flavours of ashes tacked on, only to appease an online-chart of how often certain endings were taken (and even failing with that, as evidenced by graspable data near enough everywhere).
The coloured pills appeal to different people, with different tastes at the end of the day, and I can see why some prefer to pick and choose at will from the spectrum presented at the end. In other games where different choices are presented, I can pick and choose between options given as well, and even the presence of such options I simply would never choose I can appreciate, as such an embroadened playing-field of different scenarios does enrich the experience.
However, creating a false dilemma of a friendly fire-situation with what still amounts to be the least fantastic choice was the wrong way to go about this. Not after one of the worst encounters with the villains' mastermind-figure I have witnessed in a video game recently.


So, in short (sorta), to be an absolutely happy camper about this game, I would hardly require a substantial lot of "revisioning" and "change" to make ME3 a well-rounded experience, far as I myself am concerned: a clear shot at a Wunderwaffe that does work as advertised, and clears out the antagonists of the game, who are shown time and again engaging in abhorrent atrocities on screen, and have been doing so according to the lore for countless eons.
It was my expectation that it would do that going in, a reasonable one I would like to think. And the only, tiny bit that would be required to make that work is admirably show-cased in the following fan-made montage:
www.youtube.com/watch

(note I skip the "cut" of the thing's monologue dialogue there, although I will admit that hardly anything of worth is lost with that thing not present; I could still let it pass, with just that slide altered - even if it were merely shown how the Quarians, after having made peace with their creations, are shown trying to reactivate the Geth  - even if EDI would still suffer non-functionality, as she herself terms it, it would be fine for me.)

Hardly a lot of effort. And the creepy experience of Blue and the potentially flowery - if, IMHO, badly executed - outlook of Green would still be untouched. I could look past the lacklustre-Priority: Earth to boot, with just that little effort given.

And as for the choice of outright dismissing the thing's game...I would consider that one to be reasonably ambiguous as is, unlike other things that were done in the finale in the past. Lots of meta-gaming fun to be had with that.

I agree so much with most of this and do love that video.

I also appreciate that even though personally you aren't bothered by the choice you can make, you have no problem and understand what others are saying.

As I see it, it really could have taken so little to have staunched the blood-letting here.  This video shows one exremely easy way to have done it.  And I and others have suggested things that might have added just a bit more and not really forced an incredible amount of content upon the ending.  The crucible intact can discriminate (really difficult to get and that's fine).  A Shepard lives scene (replace the Memorial Wall scene with an end scene).  All they had to do with that was to put that same set of people in another location where they appear just like this-rather sad even.  The right LI is there-that would be an addition.  And it would involve a camera change-being unclear as to what these people are sad about and standing around for and then the camera pans or zooms to Shepard, injured but alive.  I personally think it would have been awesome if at the same time the narration was of Hackett talking about what was lost and then a segue to Shepard saying what was gained as we see Shepard is alive and with friends.

The alternative that could have been shown was an ending where they found Shepard had died but had save the galaxy-with the reapers dead and so on.  I wanted both and everything in between.

[Blueprotoss]

I am disappoint wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

Pro-enders are only a minority, all 10 of them will get over it.

Yet that is so far from the truth whether its pre-EC, EC, or post-EC.

In your opinion. 

Yet its fact not opinion and you clearly aren't able to substitute reality for your own because you aren't Adam Savage.

[Blueprotoss]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

Aw, that's cute. You disagree with me so you call me ignorant. Did I overwhelm you with my preference, or that of most of the community? (Easily judged in the wake of controversy regarding the ending in these very forums.)

Its not my fault that you are being very ignorant here and there is always a small uproar on offical forums.  If all of these complaints would be true then Diablo 3 would have been the best selling PC game of 2012, ME would have died with ME1, Dark Souls won't have a PC version, Agent 47 couldn't defend himself from gun totting women in Hitman : Absolution,  Capcom would have given 12 extra characters for free in Street Fighter x Tekken, and so on.

N7 Lisbeth wrote... 

You're welcome to your numbingly warped and unsatisfying endings. Me, I'll opt for purchased DLC to correct and fix the endings. You're not affected, I get what I want. But then, that would shatter your delicate sensibilities, so I'm certain you'll disagree, because you can't do anything but.

Everyone has an opinion but everyone can't be statisfied even when ME was designed around millions of people not everyone on an individual basis.

N7 Lisbeth wrote... 

Let me reiterate and clarify: The endings sucked. After the Extended Cut, they still sucked and opened up even larger plot holes. They need to be fixed. And, because I've never believed in the moral highground, you, sir, can go suck an egg.

Haters gonna hate and nothing will happen withou compromise, which means you shouldn't be on a high horse.

[Blueprotoss]

BearlyHere wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

I am still curious to see just how well Bioware's next game will sell. Given its a "Command and Conquer" game which appeals to an entirely different genre of players.
More telling, probably Dragon Age 3, if it even gets off the storyboard.

Or another Mass Effect game.

Bioware did buy back some good will wuth the EC, and I know some actually bought Leviathan because they were hoping for a huge impact for a new ending, even ignoring advice to "wait and see".
Even now there are rumblings that Omega would hold the "key" for an alternate end, but seriously, if it isn't obvious by now, the current planned DLCs and BW's own track record indicates that tgey just don't care and want the issues with the ending to be swept aside.

Sad isn't it?
That everything fir the past 5 years to end the way it did?
It could have been remembered fir being the Epic game of the Decade, instead it became a sad reminder that "core fans" are just numbers and that a company's integrity and reputation for doing what is right towards its fans (aka paying customers) means little to nothing.

Exactly. It could have been a game talked about for years and been the standard for others to follow, like Baldur's Gate 2 still is. Now it's becoming a cautionary tale.

It seems to me like a perfect storm of dev burnout, hack writing, impossible deadlines, and corporate overlords who aren't from the gaming world and don't understand the product they're selling. It's sad to see Bioware go this direction. And I also wonder if it's deliberate. Maybe it's one way of getting out of EA's tentacles.

To be fair Bioware hasn't done anything wrong because they did create ME and own the rights to ME as well.  The perfect storm was done with Starcraft: Ghost and Half-Life 2, but the difference between the two is that Half-life 2 survived while Starcraft: Ghost died.  If a small amount of crazy fans killed Bioware then games like Mario, Zelda, Halo, CoD, Assassain's Creed, and most of the other video game series would have died.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 10 septembre 2012 - 04:16 .

[Blueprotoss]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

There has been no 'conclusive' evidence of either majority or minority on either side.

That the EC has even been made is pretty much proof the people who disliked the endings aren't a "vocal minority" as some like to claim. The controversy was quite large.

The ME3 flak wasn't as "large" as you think based on how there's always a small uproar with most games whether Bioware created the game or not.

TJBartlemus wrote...

Actually I think almost everything they have said won't be in the game ended up being in the game. No ABC ending...we get ABC ending. (Actually now we have a ABCD ending.) Your choices matter...they don't really. The rachni will play a big part...they didn't. Ironic huh? 

An example of an ABC ending would be every ending in most of the Survival Horror games that appeared in the 90s like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, Parasite Eve, Dino Crisis, Clock Tower, Fatal Frame, Siren,and so on.  Its nothing new when Bioware quotes are taken out of context on BSN. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 10 septembre 2012 - 04:25 .

[I am disappoint]

Blueprotoss wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

I am disappoint wrote...

Pro-enders are only a minority, all 10 of them will get over it.

Yet that is so far from the truth whether its pre-EC, EC, or post-EC.

In your opinion. 

Yet its fact not opinion and you clearly aren't able to substitute reality for your own because you aren't Adam Savage.

In your opinion it is a fact.

[Blueprotoss]

I am disappoint wrote...

In your opinion it is a fact.

If fact was my opinion then you ME2 would have been an RPG, which we all know that ME2 striped most of its RPG elements and retained the RPG label.  If you aren't willing to except the actual facts then you'll never get what you want in ME3.