6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Blueprotoss]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The point is they shouldn't have.  Individuals may, but companies cannot.  If we have had tantrums, well they have had them too.  The difference is a company must always be the adult face and can't be as immature as fans may be.  That's what I'm saying about From Software.  It's a small company and it entered unknown territory and believe me From got called every name in the book.  Neither they nor Namco Bandai got all personally insulted by all of that.  They tried to address the problems and complaints and not everything was about non-working things.

Most developers aren't like From Software because of the variety of series and genres that FS deals with.  Its also hard to judge what tantrum is real or not based on the amount that comes with every game.

3DandBeyond wrote... 

Some of it was pretty trivial, but they acted like a company and still acted like human beings.  From apologized in writing to fans.  Namco (that gets a lot of heat and hate all the time) participated in petitions for things.  They didn't close up and back off-they participated even when they got called some pretty horrible things.  And believe me there was a lot of discontent over the whole online issue, but they responded.  And afterward they even took up fan requests and used them.  That's what I'm talking about.  The debacle was huge for them, but it was handled and lastly, the lesson is this: even fans that were extremely unhappy with them, came back, and begged them to make the PC version and DLC, which happened and is happening.  They didn't decide to just keep distant from fans and they kept their options open.

To be fair Namco listens to a lot of feedback  now since Bandai bought them like 2-3 years ago.  They also have to listen to mor feedback based on how they're an anime and game developer.

3DandBeyond wrote... 

As I've said it is that middle ground that should be sought, but this whole thing is like a relationship between a parent and children.  BW must act like a parent.  And yes, we all have been acting like children.  But, it does not help matters to allow some to think they are the favorite child or something and like we're all vying for attention or to see who is loved the best or something.  That's the toxic atmosphere here.

Bioware is more so in the parental role especially with the reaction with each ME game.  There is only so muh a parent can do when their kids act up.

3DandBeyond wrote... 

In the Dark Souls debacle, there were people that worked with or for Namco that would tell others who were insulting unhappy people that they needed to stop.  They never used fans as the butt of jokes or got laughs over the whole matter.  BW employees have used twitter to get others to feel sorry for them (rightly or wrongly), have used conventions and/or let surrogates like IGN say horrid things about their customers.  This should have been stopped.  I know fans were out of hand, but this is not done.  Again, imagine this as a parent/child relationship-you have a child that's behaving badly.  Do you let the neighbors insult your kid openly on the internet?

Most of the Bioware quotes weren't insulting and most of the insulting was done by some of the fans for being angry at Bioware.  Blizzard, Obisidian, Betheseda, and Ubisoft are used to this happening to them.

3DandBeyond wrote... 

We all need to be responsible for what we do and have done.  Companies have the floor, they have the loudest voice always.  And fans, need to discuss the content and not the people.  The behavior as behavior and not as the character of the person involved.  It's fair to say the story sucked.  It's not fair to say so and so is a scum sucking poo poo head for writing it.  It's fair to say fans need to be constructive with their comments.  It's not fair to say or imply you are being personally threatened because someone says they won't buy your games anymore if you don't fix this.  It's fair for reviewers to say that fans are insulting and threatening (when they threaten to do bodily or property damage) and need to stop and remain constructive and to say you liked the game, but it's not fair to say that fans are entitled whiners who are demanding a dangerous precedent be set.  It's fair to say someone lied.  It's not fair to call them liars.  It's fair to say people disliked the endings, complained about them, even hated the endings and you have a different opinion, but it's not fair to call them haters.  And it's fair to say you disagree with someone who likes the endings, but it's unfair to say they are kiss ups, suck ups, BW secret agents, and so on.  It's fair to say this is your opinion, but it's not fair to say that someone else's opinion is wrong.

I say all of this knowing full well I am as guilty as anyone.  I just also see that much of this continues on.  It's hard to not respond in kind when someone attacks you and says things about you that you know are not true.  But we can all try.

I completely agree but at least you're willing to compromise, be civil, and act reasonablely.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:07 .

[Blueprotoss]

iakus wrote...

Shepard's dead in virtually every ending!  It doesn't get much more closed than that!

Yet in every RE game Umbrella is defeated in each ending.  Like I said before most games including ME aren't that open in their endings.

[Blueprotoss]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Remanentmoss01 wrote...

Demon and Dark Souls are two of the best games ive played, they are very challenging in a good way, Ive often wondered what ME would be like if Miyazaki was head honcho of the Mass Effect team , I bet he would have left us a way to beat the Reapers though it most likely would have been steam coming out of your ears torture by the time you managed it, But no matter how impossible it seems theres always a way to win in Souls

Yes, can you imagine it--oh man, it's kind of what I'm talking about.  Getting to the end of both of them is so gut-wrenching and tortuous, especially if you get invaded a lot and yet you can.  This is something I wish everyone could appreciate.  And these 2 games give you a sense of accomplishment like no other games I've ever played.  ME could have done it storywise and with an action adrenaline type ending could have succeeded in being as satisfying in a different way.  It's so hard to tell anyone who has not played these games just what getting to platinum in them means.  I have to say I loved the atmosphere in places in Demon's Souls far better than DKS, my hands would literally shake and I couldn't play some parts at night (Latria), but both are so good at what they do.  I get tense just thinking about playing certain parts.  No game ever made me feel like that.  I never needed to know why anyone in it wanted to kill me, I just needed to run or fight or die.  Don't tell me some things are impossible.  I platted both of these games.  Imagine fighting a reaper in them-heck, most of the bosses were the size of reapers just about and nastier.

I seriously think BW could learn a lot from From and the Souls' games.

There are two problems here.  The 1st one is that they're two different series especialy when we're looking at difficulty here and the difficulty of Demon/Dark is a turn off for most.  The 2nd one is that ME is built around 3 games while Dark Souls/Demon Souls is its own.  Either way it would be interesting to see more games like Dark Souls and Demon Souls.  ME wouldn't be a good choice for this anyways.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Remanentmoss01 wrote...

Demon and Dark Souls are two of the best games ive played, they are very challenging in a good way, Ive often wondered what ME would be like if Miyazaki was head honcho of the Mass Effect team , I bet he would have left us a way to beat the Reapers though it most likely would have been steam coming out of your ears torture by the time you managed it, But no matter how impossible it seems theres always a way to win in Souls

Hmm, I wouldn't agree that's the best point of comparison, at least with respect to Dark Souls (haven't played Demon Souls). Miyazaki isn't into heavy plot exposition or throwing massive amounts of choice at players, something Bioware has characteristically done. His style is far more subtle.

Mass Effect 3 always asks the player "How are we going to defeat the Reapers", hence the Crucible sub-plot. With Dark Souls, Miyazaki isn't concerned with the details of how the player is going to beat the Lords. It's the same answer as every other problem: by the tip of your sword.

Also, if you just look at every sub plot which exists in the game, there's not a one which ends happily, with the possible exception of Solaire. By the end, every character either ends up dead or hollowed.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:23 .

[3DandBeyond]

Blueprotoss wrote...


Most of the Bioware quotes weren't insulting and most of the insulting was done by some of the fans for being angry at Bioware.  Blizzard, Obisidian, Betheseda, and Ubisoft are used to this happening to them.

I think you've misinterpreted and misstated a lot here.  Everyone is complicit in this.  And as I said a lot of it was fomented by people that should have been told to stop.  Companies do not allow others to insult their customers.  And no matter how ill-equipped BW was to handle this EA was not.  And you cannot on the one hand say that they've been criticized in the past and so they gave up and then now say they aren't used to criticism.  I'm sorry, but part of getting paid is learning how to and dealing appropriately with any and all criticism.  EA has been in business far longer than many of these other companies.

And your view of whether something is insulting is based on where you're sitting.  And I didn't even accuse BW of being insulting-I specifically stated that surrogates were.  They did however insult fans as well, and one insult by a company or people working for it is one too many.

Every single company I have ever worked for would not allow any employee to do this, to ever insult a customer, no matter how out of line the customer is.  And I've had to deal with some truly nasty ones, face to face and had to "take it".  And, believe me I wanted to say a lot of things in response but you rise above.  And I'd have lost my job if I did.  I particularly would never have been allowed to go into a public forum and get snarky about customers.  When you work for a company you are a reflection of that company.  And how you deal with things can set the tone.  I don't care how uncivilly or how badly people talk about you.  It's not a schoolyard playground. 

I personally have had customers that went crazy on me to my face-crazy people.  I still could not go on twitter and say I work for xyz company and customers are crazy and then talk about it.  You don't do it.  If someone is out of hand you deal with it professionally.  You do not devolve into a personal debate, no matter how personal someone else gets, as a member of a company.  And you never do so publicly.  I've worked with people who did just that-want to know how long they last at the company?  Not very long.  Many companies even include the kind of behavior expected within a mission or policy statement and employee guidelines.  And if you go against this you are told it reflects on the company. 

I have a family member who deals with just this-she's had subordinates start blogs that deal with company issues-they are told to remove them.  She's had subordinates use Facebook to discuss company things.  They are told to stop.  Some have posted on twitter and are told to stop.  What they do reflects on the company and they have it explained to them that they can't do both, comment on work and customers publicly and work at that company.  The problem is when you work for a company and say something, you are speaking for the company when talking about customers.  Most places do not allow this.

[Remanentmoss01]

@3D I know what you mean about the sense of acheivement you get when you compleat those games, I got the plats for them both as well , The first time you beat Flamelurker or that damned Maneater (he kept pushing me of the bridge) i found myself shouting at the screen, And i agree with you about DS being the better game, though i think Lordran is the best designed game world ive ever played in, But the atmosphere in DS was just amazing, it was the creepiest game ive ever played ,
I know what you mean about Latria but for me it was the valley of defilement and the swamp and the noises that boom out and those big buggers that loomed up at you out of the dark,
But this is about Mass Effect , i just wish ME3 had that same sense of achievement at the end

[Metalunatic]

They can't sacrifice their artistic integrity, fool!

[3DandBeyond]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Remanentmoss01 wrote...

Demon and Dark Souls are two of the best games ive played, they are very challenging in a good way, Ive often wondered what ME would be like if Miyazaki was head honcho of the Mass Effect team , I bet he would have left us a way to beat the Reapers though it most likely would have been steam coming out of your ears torture by the time you managed it, But no matter how impossible it seems theres always a way to win in Souls

Hmm, I wouldn't agree that's the best point of comparison, at least with respect to Dark Souls (haven't played Demon Souls). Miyazaki isn't into heavy plot exposition or throwing massive amounts of choice at players, something Bioware has characteristically done. His style is far more subtle.

Mass Effect 3 always asks the player "How are we going to defeat the Reapers", hence the Crucible sub-plot. With Dark Souls, Miyazaki isn't concerned with the details of how the player is going to beat the Lords. It's the same answer as every other problem: by the tip of your sword.

Also, if you just look at every sub plot which exists in the game, there's not a one which ends happily, with the possible exception of Solaire. By the end, every character either ends up dead or hollowed.

I agree he's not into plot exposition.  That isn't the point.  Demon's and Dark Souls are difficult games that still allow you a way to fight to the end and to really feel like you've won.  You learn from dying and do things differently to make sure you don't die again.

And it's part of the problem, you are told exactly at the end of ME how you will end the game, and not really necessarily defeat anything.  You are always looking to defeat them, but then are never in control really of how that will happen-you get a choice someone else gives you.  Demon's and Dark Souls give you every conceivable way possible to defeat foes, including the help of other real or NPC players, as well as an incredible amount of equipment customization.  Everything you can get in those games is geared toward helping you figure out how to kill a foe.  And then you can use those things to do just that. 

ME3 does just the opposite with the ending.  You can keep asking how to defeat the reapers, but you aren't ever going to do it based on your own worth, choices, or actions in the game.  You might do it based on choices someone else is allowing you to make.  And 2 of them, don't exactly defeat the reapers-in fact, they defeat the galaxy in truly pernicious ways.

[Seival]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Is it wrong to want proper ending for Shepard ?

ME already has proper endings. Choose the one you like the most. I'm sure you like one of them more than the others.

If endings are a problem for you, then search the source of that problem in yourself, not in the game.

[3DandBeyond]

Remanentmoss01 wrote...

@3D I know what you mean about the sense of acheivement you get when you compleat those games, I got the plats for them both as well , The first time you beat Flamelurker or that damned Maneater (he kept pushing me of the bridge) i found myself shouting at the screen, And i agree with you about DS being the better game, though i think Lordran is the best designed game world ive ever played in, But the atmosphere in DS was just amazing, it was the creepiest game ive ever played ,
I know what you mean about Latria but for me it was the valley of defilement and the swamp and the noises that boom out and those big buggers that loomed up at you out of the dark,
But this is about Mass Effect , i just wish ME3 had that same sense of achievement at the end

Exactly right.  I'd just say that if anyone wanted to know what feeling ME3 lacks at the end they should try to finish one of those games and then they'd know.  I've said it before, ME1 and 2 had it and part of it was the story and part was the action-it's that "hell yeah" moment.  It's what I felt in telling TIM off at the end of ME2.  It's missing in ME3.

[3DandBeyond]

Seival wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Is it wrong to want proper ending for Shepard ?

ME already has proper endings. Choose the one you like the most. I'm sure you like one of them more than the others.

If endings are a problem for you, then search the source of that problem in yourself, not in the game.

This is not the place for insults or personal attacks.  If that's all you are going to do, do it elsewhere.  I'm asking people to just stop it right now.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

Seival wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Is it wrong to want proper ending for Shepard ?

ME already has proper endings. Choose the one you like the most. I'm sure you like one of them more than the others.

If endings are a problem for you, then search the source of that problem in yourself, not in the game.

www.youtube.com/watch

That's mean.

[Remanentmoss01]

@BaladasD Oh i agree there is no real comparison between the games, Im just talking really about the sense of achievement at the end, Souls made me feel like a gaming god and with ME3 i was sitting there in bewildered stunned disbelief,

[Sealy]

??? This is still an issue? People are still playing this game! I liked the game and even I am not playing it anymore. Crazy, the Mass effect series was good, but it wasn't world changing and those of you that found it disappointing shouldn't let your dislike make you pissy for the last what; five? six? months of your life.

Edit: Ha the wording there sounded doom-ish, I do not mean that people only have five or six months left to live .

I am just saying breakups and divorces are usually mourned out by now, either return the game, or set it on fire and give it a burial but if the biggest problem in your day is that you didn't get the ending you wanted count yourself among the lucky. People and their first world crisises. Makes me a sad panda:pinched: 

Modifié par Fleshdress, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:00 .

[3DandBeyond]

Fleshdress wrote...

??? This is still an issue? People are still playing this game! I liked the game and even I am not playing it anymore. Crazy, the Mass effect series was good, but it wasn't world changing and those of you that found it disappointing shouldn't let your dislike make you pissy for the last what; five? six? months of your life.

Please read OP before commenting.  I was not pissy and asking if people are still playing the game really points out a problem for the game.  Something that I've talked about here.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:57 .

[Seival]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Seival wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Is it wrong to want proper ending for Shepard ?

ME already has proper endings. Choose the one you like the most. I'm sure you like one of them more than the others.

If endings are a problem for you, then search the source of that problem in yourself, not in the game.

This is not the place for insults or personal attacks.  If that's all you are going to do, do it elsewhere.  I'm asking people to just stop it right now.


I am also asking that no one respond to people that act like this-this person wants to start a fight.

I think you see insult in anything that is against the idea of endings change. And this is counter-productive.

If you wanna fix the endings, then fix them on your side. Change your opinion. Change your attitude to the endings. And believe me, you will become very happy if you will manage to do so.



...Belive me, because I was a hater and Retaker once. But then I just opened my eyes.

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Is it wrong to want proper ending for Shepard ?

ME already has proper endings. Choose the one you like the most. I'm sure you like one of them more than the others.

If endings are a problem for you, then search the source of that problem in yourself, not in the game.

Sooooo, if one of the lead writers had a problem with the endings you like........ then by your logic he would have a problem in himself........ except that lead writer is also repsonsible for creating alot of the ingame content we all loved.

Here the link to the writer in question.

http://www.gamesthir...s-casey-hudson/

The reason why I'm pointing this out? Your getting snippy. BW may own the franchise but the fans give it it's power. Fans a bit cross. BW getting that msg loud and clear then and now right up to the point when they withdraw all support for their creation.

So just sigh, smile and have a cup of tea. Who knows what BW will do with all the feedback their getting.

Although, if you really feel that strongly, why not create a leave the ending alone thread and fill it with intelligent discourse citing the reasons why the ending is good? If the pro enders can pull out enough reasons as the anti enders that cite enough logic based on the format of stories....... History ranging from Socraties and how his 'What if' reasoning impacted on story telling to the present day and tried to explain how deus ex ending's work and how they have been successfully pulled off, then correlate ME3's ending with that I would be having a debate where I would come away richer in knowledge and perspective...........

Rather than typing a post pointing out someones getting snippy.

Really, new thread time.

Or better debate. It's all good

Modifié par Redbelle, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[3DandBeyond]

Seival wrote...


...Belive me, because I was a hater and Retaker once. But then I just opened my eyes.

Seival, as I've repeatedly asked then go enjoy what you now have.  But this is hypocritical.  You were the subject of something very similar to what you are doing here, but now because you are happy that's all that matters?  Please take this elsewhere. 


You indicate you are anything but happy.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:04 .

[AresKeith]

Seival wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Seival wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Is it wrong to want proper ending for Shepard ?

ME already has proper endings. Choose the one you like the most. I'm sure you like one of them more than the others.

If endings are a problem for you, then search the source of that problem in yourself, not in the game.

This is not the place for insults or personal attacks.  If that's all you are going to do, do it elsewhere.  I'm asking people to just stop it right now.


I am also asking that no one respond to people that act like this-this person wants to start a fight.

I think you see insult in anything that is against the idea of endings change. And this is counter-productive.

If you wanna fix the endings, then fix them on your side. Change your opinion. Change your attitude to the endings. And believe me, you will become very happy if you will manage to do so.



...Belive me, because I was a hater and Retaker once. But then I just opened my eyes.

sure you did, but were not gonna listen to you so  

[Sealy]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Fleshdress wrote...

??? This is still an issue? People are still playing this game! I liked the game and even I am not playing it anymore. Crazy, the Mass effect series was good, but it wasn't world changing and those of you that found it disappointing shouldn't let your dislike make you pissy for the last what; five? six? months of your life.

Please read OP before commenting.  I was not pissy and asking if people are still playing the game really points out a problem for the game.  Something that I've talked about here.

Way too long... I read the first little bit, realized it was the same complaint you heard right after the game came out. A well worded complaint about not getting your way is still at the end of the day just someone mad that the game wasn't par to their standard. Which I mean is fine... cool story. I am just saying that this is too long to still be holding out a hat asking for whatever change they can spare you. Just let it go, cause they are no longer lisening. They are all listened out.

[jkflipflopDAO]

Seival wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Seival wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Is it wrong to want proper ending for Shepard ?

ME already has proper endings. Choose the one you like the most. I'm sure you like one of them more than the others.

If endings are a problem for you, then search the source of that problem in yourself, not in the game.

This is not the place for insults or personal attacks.  If that's all you are going to do, do it elsewhere.  I'm asking people to just stop it right now.


I am also asking that no one respond to people that act like this-this person wants to start a fight.

I think you see insult in anything that is against the idea of endings change. And this is counter-productive.

If you wanna fix the endings, then fix them on your side. Change your opinion. Change your attitude to the endings. And believe me, you will become very happy if you will manage to do so.



...Belive me, because I was a hater and Retaker once. But then I just opened my eyes.

Baseless platitudes rule, dude! It only works for Yoda. Everyone else sounds like a douche.

[Iakus]

Blueprotoss wrote...

iakus wrote...

Shepard's dead in virtually every ending!  It doesn't get much more closed than that!

Yet in every RE game Umbrella is defeated in each ending.  Like I said before most games including ME aren't that open in their endings.

Your decisions don't matter in RE games.  You're just along for the ride while the stroy unfolds.  They never claimed otherwise.  Bioware claimed otherwise in Mass Effect.  They called us "architects of the story." said that these Shepards are "our" Shepards.  

And it's not like Bioware hasn't pulled it off before.  DAO was just a couple of years ago and boasted multiple endings, both with the Warden alive and dead.

[Chashan]

Seival wrote...


I think you see insult in anything that is against the idea of endings change. And this is counter-productive.

If you wanna fix the endings, then fix them on your side. Change your opinion. Change your attitude to the endings. And believe me, you will become very happy if you will manage to do so.



...Belive me, because I was a hater and Retaker once. But then I just opened my eyes.

Seival, I believe repeating that message over and over again - that only through "being happy" with things in the finale as they are the whole issue is magically dissolved - serves no real purpose here any longer.

The views expressed here are hardly "hating", nor are they oh-so counter-productive as you suggest.


This coming from someone who already expressed that one of the options available already serves well enough as far as "acceptance" is concerned. However, I can see the reasons for and the potential of refining what is there in this game's finale.
You are fine with the status-quo of now as is, so I truly fail to see why exactly you are still lingering here, in this specific thread.

Modifié par Chashan, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[Seival]

AresKeith wrote...

Seival wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Seival wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Is it wrong to want proper ending for Shepard ?

ME already has proper endings. Choose the one you like the most. I'm sure you like one of them more than the others.

If endings are a problem for you, then search the source of that problem in yourself, not in the game.

This is not the place for insults or personal attacks.  If that's all you are going to do, do it elsewhere.  I'm asking people to just stop it right now.


I am also asking that no one respond to people that act like this-this person wants to start a fight.

I think you see insult in anything that is against the idea of endings change. And this is counter-productive.

If you wanna fix the endings, then fix them on your side. Change your opinion. Change your attitude to the endings. And believe me, you will become very happy if you will manage to do so.



...Belive me, because I was a hater and Retaker once. But then I just opened my eyes.

sure you did, but were not gonna listen to you so  

But you are listening.

And I'm doing my best to convince you, just like some people convinced me before.

Be reasonable. Accept the endings. Deal with it.

[Applepie_Svk]

Metalunatic wrote...

They can't sacrifice their artistic integrity, fool!

They instead sacrificing of own hubris have sacrificed integrity and coherence of trilogy, how brilliant... 

Seival wrote...


ME already has proper endings. Choose the one you like the most. I'm sure you like one of them more than the others.

If endings are a problem for you, then search the source of that problem in yourself, not in the game.

 

Put away EC... still proper endings ? Than what was point of EC ?

You are saying that EC was just an explanation than what was point of that of EC when you already found your answers via headcanon and forum discusions ? I have managed headcanon from what was told by original ending what will be in the EC and yet I was wrong, I was wrong because BioWare lied again.

EC is retcon and it´s reason why I was wrong, most obvious part of their retcon was survival of Relays - you are the one who is taking Catalyst´s words as face value so with original endings Catalyst clearly statted that relays will be destroyed and even all scenes show it and yet you are saying there wasn´t retcon at all...

Problem is not just in me, by your explanation it´s in huge part of fanbase which want for Shepard and Mass Effect something better, something which make sense and something which doesn´t destroying coherence of story.

I don´t like line of deffense about artistic integrity, their artistic integrity is dead meat for a long time since they start to lied with ME3, I paid as much others because we love ME same as you - and we payed to see Shepard ending this war on own terms and not on terms of the enemy, not mentioned that huge revelation in the end of story is insult to intelligence of consumer. But what I should I tell you, it´s pointless to argue with guys like you because you always see only your side of coin - I have no problem with saying that ME3 has even few good moments but endings killed it and not just for me but lot of others whole ME franchise.