6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Dendio1]

The endings are fine. Leviathan pretty much explained star kid to a tee. Everything else is nitpicking.
Let it go people. Looking forwards to omega

[Blueprotoss]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...
I'm not misdirecting anything because you can only do so much in a comic, novel, movie, tv show, or game.  ME3 has 65,000+ plotlines when you have played Shepard from the start of ME1 to the end of ME3 while this is most likely without DLC being included.

And most of those "plotlines" are not a part of the endings at all, so that has no bearing on any of it.  You get minor changes in slides and most all that is considered is EMS and paragon/renegade as to which flavor you get with that EMS.  So, those plotlines have no bearing-that's a major issue, but one that will never be considered since they should have had real bearing on things.

You can play ME3 as a standalone game and not miss much of anything at the end, so you are totally misdirecting things.  Additional DLC wouldn't impact those 65000 supposed plot lines and would be geared toward the endings specifically.  And, if they can add on DLC for other things, then there's no reason some type of additional DLC can't also be explored.

Most of those plotines are in the endings especially when Priority Earth is the ending like Regaining control over the Citadel in ME1 and the Suicide Mission in ME2.  Everything doesn't need to be shown to be considered.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:41 .

[Blueprotoss]

AresKeith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Catalyst is honest just like Legion was honest on the Geth defending themselves against the Quarians and Leviathan for saying that they created the Reapers.

what does the Leviathans have to do with anything?

They created the Catalyst and became the 1st Reaper that Harbinger is.

[3DandBeyond]

drayfish wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Because these options do not exist in isolation. Any option you add affects the others. And if you have an option that feels comfortable then that will invalidate those which don't feel comfortable. You don't think choosing Synthesis is a comfortable decision, do you? I have a decision whose outcome I like, but I must compromise my principles to get it. In a big way. In short: If you can win without compromising your principles, then choosing any other ending becomes wrong.

That's why I'm adamantly opposed to adding such an ending option.

How is an ending that demands its players abandon the noble principles that have driven them to achieve the impossible and inspire heroism and belief in others in any way meaningful?
 
Truly?
 
I would love if someone could explain to me what on earth such a text says of value about humanity, the human condition, or our experience of ourselves in the universe?
 
The best I've heard so far is some truly depressing nonsense about 'doing what needs to be done' to win wars. ...Fantastic. Because that's what we need more of as a society - excuses to devalue or dismiss morality in the pursuit of victory. 
 
I cannot express how heartbreaking it is to see Mass Effect, a text that has previously treasured inclusivity and acceptance, throw all that away in some vulgar validation of amorality. 

'Believing in others and respecting their right to self-determinism is dumb!'

'You have to be the harbinger of a new world order built upon an act of terrorism!'

'Do it now or we'll kill everything!' 
 
The ending of Mass Effect does not inspire deep thought; it does not test our morality or expand our understanding of ourselves: all it does is prove to us that a soldier is better equipped to do what it takes to win wars if they don't give a damn in the first place. Divest yourself of all humanity, disabuse yourself of all that fundamental respect you hold for your fellow man - because that kind of crap will just get in the way when the big decisions need to be made.

What a sickening message to send.
 
Because to me that's the ugly truth that people seem to skip over when defending these endings: not everyone has to sacrifice something in these conclusions. Racists; megalomaniacal lunatics; egomaniacal sociopaths – these figures all get to swim through the ending of Mass Effect without hesitation, giving up nothing, feeling no remorse at all, and being told by every epilogue that they were heroes – that they unquestionably did the right thing and were celebrated as the shining beacon of a new age. The only people who suffer in this moral grinder are those who have morals to punish.

And why?  Why is that the hero we need?  Why is that he hero anyone ever has needed?
 
Truly, Greek tragedies – stories in which noble characters were brought to despair and ruin by the fickle cruelties of fate – were never even this bleak. Oedipus may have ended his days a blind vagabond wandering the hills in agony alone, but at least he remained honourable in his actions, at least he retained his dignity and his purity of spirit.  He still got to serve as a true inspiration for others by not twisting his morality into some vile knot. He was a good man who did great things, and selflessly saved his city.  And even when fate visited untold horrors upon him, he stayed just and true because to allow oneself to be broken by circumstance, to sell out ones beliefs even in the face of pure despair would be the most unforgivable sin of all.
 
...And this was from a society that believed in an unremitting fatalism that dwarfed anything the Reapers could cough up. At the moment of absolute judgement the hero is called upon to prove their valour, to stand for something that means more than they themself, more than life itself – but instead Bioware chose to strangle into us the message that hope was a lie, and that only by utterly betraying your ethics is the world allowed to spin on.
 
If anyone can explain to me why that is a moral any human being should embrace I will be amazed. ...I will probably also be left sobbing uncontrollably in the corner, but amazed I will be.

Great post that needed to be quoted.

This is where the endings diverge from the game and from any real concept of what life is all about and what gives it meaning.

I get told a lot of things here and most of them contradict each other.

For one, I'm told this is a game and not to be looked at too deeply, but to just be played for fun.  Ok, uh huh.  And then for another, I'm told that this is about real life decisions and making the hard choices and determining what to give up for something better.  Ok, uh huh.  Uh, this is a game and it is real life.  Gotcha.

Well, what I'm saying is this is supposed to be a game, but it's given some warped view of what someone thinks real life is.

It is distinctly un-fun at the end for me, not at all video gamey or anything gamey at all.  And it sure isn't about real life.  So, it isn't what some think it is.  IMO.  To me it is deciding in what way you will totally mess up life in the galaxy in order to minimize at present the current threat.  The best corollary for it is in the game itself.  It is like the Krogan story on super steroids. 

It's deciding today to do the expedient thing to avert a current threat with no vision for a future looming threat based upon your decisions of today.  It's ignoring the consequences of what you are doing today in order to avoid facing head on, on your own and using your own strength and innovative thought and imagination and perseverance, the current threat.  This is my opinion of what the choices are.  It's avoidance of responsibility and putting out small fires even as the embers still burn beneath the surface.  And the future threat may be faced by an even weaker galaxy based upon choosing something that was not forward thinking.  The galaxy would only be prepared for the future if the galaxy can self-determine and build its own foundation.

You look at the Krogan and the problem was never solved until Shepard got involved-and yet, the Salarian doesn't think that solves it and even threatens Shepard over it.  But go back and think what happened and what started all of this.  It started with the Protheans.  They uplifted the Rachni and made them aggressive for war needs.  It was done to solve a current perceived problem.  That in part led to the aggressiveness that became a problem later and so the Krogan were advanced to deal with the Rachni and then they became a problem and so the genophage was created.  Every instance of real problems that exist has occurred because no one considers the future at all. 

The geth is all about the quarians not thinking about what they're doing.  And even the geth response seems to have been overkill that got pulled back when at last they did stop to think a bit.

The galaxy is stupid, sure maybe much like people can tend to be.  But part of it is because they only ever look at a current, in your face threat and ignore what they cannot see.  Sound familiar?  It sounds exactly as what happened regarding the reapers.  The imaginative reps of the galaxy said it was the geth.  We get told repeatedly in ME3 that people are ignoring what is going on and they are doing it on purpose.  Right from the beginning we are told that.  Life on the citadel is idyllic, ignoring the future.

So, we get to the end and are asked to make expedient choices and to do so without real thought about what could result, not today, but in the future.  And they are easier decisions to make, just like the Krogan uplifing was, and the Rachni decision was and so on.  You can't make decisions in a vaccuum and say they have some really good meaning, when you have not even considered their meaning or their impact beyond today.  It's like putting a piece of gum in a hole in a dam and saying, "it's all good" and never thinking about it again.

However, it is what it is and this is my opinion on things.  I know others don't see it this way-I've been told that the slides show that things really do end happily and I have to stifle a bit of a nauseated feeling.  The slides show a lot of fluff that doesn't go along with everything else we know.  That's why I really wanted some authenticism to at least one ending, not bunnies and not marshmallows roasting over torso Shepard either.  Real and fun.

[ElectroNeonPanda]

Dendio1 wrote...

The endings are fine. Leviathan pretty much explained star kid to a tee. Everything else is nitpicking.
Let it go people. Looking forwards to omega

I feel, as do many others, that the endings are awful and an insult to many of us who enjoyed the series right up to the conclusion of ME3.  

You have your opinion, I have mine.  Don't make blanket statements like they're fact though.

I hold no hopes of Bioware providing an ending to do the series justice but I know that not one penny of my cash is going towards any of their future DLC/games.  I bought the launch day DLC - which I had mixed feelings on - but I have zero intention of buying Levi/Weapon Packs or any new DLC.  This coming from someone who bought every single piece of ME2 DLC without question, such was my faith in the company at that point.

[Dendio1]

Because these options do not exist in isolation. Any option you add affects the others. And if you have an option that feels comfortable then that will invalidate those which don't feel comfortable. You don't think choosing Synthesis is a comfortable decision, do you? I have a decision whose outcome I like, but I must compromise my principles to get it. In a big way. In short: If you can win without compromising your principles, then choosing any other ending becomes wrong.

That's why I'm adamantly opposed to adding such an ending option.

This is correct. If there is an easy way out with no repercussions, then why go the hard way with sacrifices? A perfect ending would invalidate the others. Bioware clearly wants choice to matter in the endings, so they gave all options pros and cons

[Dendio1]

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

The endings are fine. Leviathan pretty much explained star kid to a tee. Everything else is nitpicking.
Let it go people. Looking forwards to omega

I feel, as do many others, that the endings are awful and an insult to many of us who enjoyed the series right up to the conclusion of ME3.  

You have your opinion, I have mine.  Don't make blanket statements like they're fact though.

I hold no hopes of Bioware providing an ending to do the series justice but I know that not one penny of my cash is going towards any of their future DLC/games.  I bought the launch day DLC - which I had mixed feelings on - but I have zero intention of buying Levi/Weapon Packs or any new DLC.  This coming from someone who bought every single piece of ME2 DLC without question, such was my faith in the company at that point.

The initial ending was bogus, but even without extended cut mass effect 3 is still much better than most games out there. I'll happily buy more bioware games/dlc even if they have flaws. Bioware quality games+flaws > most of industry

Modifié par Dendio1, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:49 .

[3DandBeyond]

Dendio1 wrote...

The endings are fine. Leviathan pretty much explained star kid to a tee. Everything else is nitpicking.
Let it go people. Looking forwards to omega

In your opinion of course.  I disagree.  And Omega becomes pointless to many people (even reviewers like IGN were not excited about Leviathan).  Lose your staunchest supporters such as IGN and other review sites like it and something is not going right.

What good would it be to save Aria and Omega, if all you ever get is what you have now-it defines pointless.  It also adds to an overwhelming malaise that Leviathan helped to promote for a lot of people.  Does that sound like things you want reviewers to quote?  And "meh" was said about Leviathan in one of the pro-ME3 endings reviews.  I doubt that will be used to promote Omega.  Something will need to help it be considered meaningful.

[Dendio1]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

The endings are fine. Leviathan pretty much explained star kid to a tee. Everything else is nitpicking.
Let it go people. Looking forwards to omega

In your opinion of course.  I disagree.  And Omega becomes pointless to many people (even reviewers like IGN were not excited about Leviathan).  Lose your staunchest supporters such as IGN and other review sites like it and something is not going right.

What good would it be to save Aria and Omega, if all you ever get is what you have now-it defines pointless.  It also adds to an overwhelming malaise that Leviathan helped to promote for a lot of people.  Does that sound like things you want reviewers to quote?  And "meh" was said about Leviathan in one of the pro-ME3 endings reviews.  I doubt that will be used to promote Omega.  Something will need to help it be considered meaningful.

I really enjoyed leviathan, yet i still haven't bothered completing the game to see if it alters star kids dialogue. Reason being I already know how the story ends. Bioware said they won't change anything drastically. This is the story they wanted to tell. It makes sense.

Leviathan makes star kid's appearance more appropriate, while giving a sweet underwater scene and some cool investigative activity

[Ieldra]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Ok your last sentence is key-you would want it, would pay for it, and yet you are dead set against it.

I am dead-set against it as long as not all endings get a "golden" version that mitigates the part that stings people most. You get yours, I get mine and we'll both be happy.

However, that would totally change the tone of the ending scenarios as a whole. I would want it, but I'm not completely convinced it would be a good idea.

Also, you didn't understand what I was saying about the MP. I hate MP requirements in SP, I just wanted to illustrate the lengths to which I'd go. Just as you.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:54 .

[darkway1]

If an ending was created to show Shepard and a united universe crush the reapers,to survive and be reunited with your preferred love interest.........I'm gonna guess that pretty much everyone would pick that ending.......it's what the masses want.

As it stands the majority of present endings are all going to become meaning less and stupid if a Mass4 ever gets created.........afterall,refuse ending wipes out the universe......so that ending goes straight in the bin.
If some endings are destined to become redundant when a future Mass Effect is produced,then what's the big issue with producing a happy conclusion.....at the end of the day,the happy ending could just as easily end up in the bin........all depends on which direction Mass 4 takes.

LOL.....you know....I really hope I don't see a future Bioware announce Mass4 with the return of Shepard.....with quotes "Shepard lives because the fans demanded it"..........that would be taking the ****** big time.

[ElectroNeonPanda]

Whenever I think about ME3 SP now I remember the sadness and pride I felt at Legion's sacrifice and how it was utterly tainted by the ending choices. They amounted to either eradicating his noble gesture by wiping out all synthetics, cheapening his actions by turning everyone into hybrids and thus missing the central message of peaceful co-existence the whole Geth/Quarian storyline was based around, or just enslave everyone and remove free will from the universe.

[Dendio1]

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...

Whenever I think about ME3 SP now I remember the sadness and pride I felt at Legion's sacrifice and how it was utterly tainted by the ending choices. They amounted to either eradicating his noble gesture by wiping out all synthetics, cheapening his actions by turning everyone into hybrids and thus missing the central message of peaceful co-existence the whole Geth/Quarian storyline was based around, or just enslave everyone and remove free will from the universe.

its war, im sad that kaiden and jokers lil sis had to die. Sometimes the noble sacrifice doesn't pan out ( see control shepard )

Be happy that legion was able to die on his terms, we won't all be affored such luxuries

[ElectroNeonPanda]

Dendio1 wrote...

its war, im sad that kaiden and jokers lil sis had to die. Sometimes the noble sacrifice doesn't pan out ( see control shepard )

Be happy that legion was able to die on his terms, we won't all be affored such luxuries

The point is though, the majority of us play these games to have fun and to kick ass.  We're confronted with enough harsh reality away from our computers/consoles.  I struggle to believe even 1% of the people who played the SP through to completion the first time ended saying, "Hell yeah!"  There was pretty much a universal, "Umm wtf?!" by all concerned.

[Xamufam]

darkway1 wrote...

If an ending was created to show Shepard and a united universe crush the reapers,to survive and be reunited with your preferred love interest.........I'm gonna guess that pretty much everyone would pick that ending.......it's what the masses want.

As it stands the majority of present endings are all going to become meaning less and stupid if a Mass4 ever gets created.........afterall,refuse ending wipes out the universe......so that ending goes straight in the bin.
If some endings are destined to become redundant when a future Mass Effect is produced,then what's the big issue with producing a happy conclusion.....at the end of the day,the happy ending could just as easily end up in the bin........all depends on which direction Mass 4 takes.

LOL.....you know....I really hope I don't see a future Bioware announce Mass4 with the return of Shepard.....with quotes "Shepard lives because the fans demanded it"..........that would be taking the ****** big time.

It isn't about that, there is no way to make sense of the story.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/playlist

If shep was a tragic hero then i can see shep dying
Tragic and epic genres and how BW got them mixed... the opinion of a professional writer
The Hero's Journey: Return with the Elixir

Modifié par Troxa, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:09 .

[Blueprotoss]

darkway1 wrote...

If an ending was created to show Shepard and a united universe crush the reapers,to survive and be reunited with your preferred love interest.........I'm gonna guess that pretty much everyone would pick that ending.......it's what the masses want.

Neither of us can say thats what the masses want nor thats an option that everyone would pick.

darkway1 wrote... 

As it stands the majority of present endings are all going to become meaning less and stupid if a Mass4 ever gets created.........afterall,refuse ending wipes out the universe......so that ending goes straight in the bin.
If some endings are destined to become redundant when a future Mass Effect is produced,then what's the big issue with producing a happy conclusion.....at the end of the day,the happy ending could just as easily end up in the bin........all depends on which direction Mass 4 takes.

Again neither of us can say thats what the masses want thats an option that everyone would want.

darkway1 wrote... 

LOL.....you know....I really hope I don't see a future Bioware announce Mass4 with the return of Shepard.....with quotes "Shepard lives because the fans demanded it"..........that would be taking the ****** big time.

Bioware is done with Shepard's story arc after ME3 especially when you look at the ME3's epilogue that the Stargazer scene is.

[Blueprotoss]

Troxa wrote...

LOL.....you know....I really hope I don't see a future Bioware announce Mass4 with the return of Shepard.....with quotes "Shepard lives because the fans demanded it"..........that would be taking the ****** big time.
It isn't about that, there is no way to make sense of the story.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/playlist

Opinions are opinions.

Troxa wrote... 

If shep was a tragic hero then i can see shep dying
Tragic and epic genres and how BW got them mixed... the opinion of a professional writer
The Hero's Journey: Return with the Elixir

Yet Shepard has been a tragic hero since ME1.

[Blueprotoss]

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

its war, im sad that kaiden and jokers lil sis had to die. Sometimes the noble sacrifice doesn't pan out ( see control shepard )

Be happy that legion was able to die on his terms, we won't all be affored such luxuries

The point is though, the majority of us play these games to have fun and to kick ass.  We're confronted with enough harsh reality away from our computers/consoles.  I struggle to believe even 1% of the people who played the SP through to completion the first time ended saying, "Hell yeah!"  There was pretty much a universal, "Umm wtf?!" by all concerned.

To be fair the word "fun" varies from person to person like how person loves RPGs and hates Driving games while another person loves Driving games and hates RPGs.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:17 .

[3DandBeyond]

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

its war, im sad that kaiden and jokers lil sis had to die. Sometimes the noble sacrifice doesn't pan out ( see control shepard )

Be happy that legion was able to die on his terms, we won't all be affored such luxuries

The point is though, the majority of us play these games to have fun and to kick ass.  We're confronted with enough harsh reality away from our computers/consoles.  I struggle to believe even 1% of the people who played the SP through to completion the first time ended saying, "Hell yeah!"  There was pretty much a universal, "Umm wtf?!" by all concerned.

Yes, exactly.  I don't think people sat down to play it and said "gee, I hope at the end we are not forced to fight and win against these ever-loving reapers.  It would be way more awesome to be given choices in a moral quandry along with a conversation and cool slide shows.  I would especially like it if the moral quandry was not tied directly to anything I have done in these games at all and that everyone gets to decide the same thing.  I do think that there should be nothing moral that I can decide to do no matter what and that I will not have some sense that I won anything at the end at all.  And, I prefer Shepard should die while screwing the galaxy and not by winning anything.  Or, that Shepard should be left in a heap of conjecture and ambiguity, because games that end in ambiguity or sadness are so much better than games where I have a chance to win based upon how I play."

In fact, that should have been a comment put on the label.  Along with, "ME3.  The Game and War You Can't Win.  Because, who would want that?"

[Xamufam]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Troxa wrote...

LOL.....you know....I really hope I don't see a future Bioware announce Mass4 with the return of Shepard.....with quotes "Shepard lives because the fans demanded it"..........that would be taking the ****** big time.
It isn't about that, there is no way to make sense of the story.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/playlist

Opinions are opinions.

Troxa wrote... 

If shep was a tragic hero then i can see shep dying
Tragic and epic genres and how BW got them mixed... the opinion of a professional writer
The Hero's Journey: Return with the Elixir

Yet Shepard has been a tragic hero since ME1.

you just say opinions oppinions when you can't counter.
Shepard is not tragic & never has been, a tragic character is for  exampel Kratos from God Of War 3 a hero of a tragedy

Modifié par Troxa, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[iloveexplosives]

maybe he says opinions are a opinions because your too stubborn your logic goes both ways

[3DandBeyond]

Blueprotoss wrote...
Yet Shepard has been a tragic hero since ME1.

Uh, no.  Shepard was a living hero since ME1, even resurrected just to put a stamp on that fact.  The tragedy existed outside of Shepard, but Shepard always went for that ray of light at the end.  That's why Joker says in ME2 that he's glad Shepard's in charge, because Shepard has no plans of failure and not getting back home.  The tragic hero is a mis-played and often mis-used idea and it is so badly abused at the end.

That dead Shepard is no hero, nor is the torso.  So, that's not as Drayfish aptly described it, in keeping with any idea of a tragic hero.  Even though Shepard has no concern for his/her own life, that's not what defines a tragic hero at all.  It's defined by how the hero uses his/her life and its sacrifice.  These choices for me are not the greater good-there could be a real ending that showed that.  That Shepard must die in a true destroy ending to save the galaxy and everything in it.  That is sacrifice. 

And that was one kind of ending I would have embraced-and yes still want one possible way to avoid that.  I'd want both because Shepard has always sacrificed way more than anyone else in this whole thing, other than maybe Mordin and Legion.  And the galaxy has suffered as well and if the galaxy is to go on and have a clue and a brain, it needs more than dead heroes.  It's gonna need a lot of help-so tragedy is all around and lies ahead.  Sacrifice is for something and not merely for expediency.  The tragedy is that all this is seen as some great life-affirming sacrifice, when it easily is seen by many as exactly the opposite.  And both can be valid.  I obviously do disagree vehemently that the endings are fun and good and cool, but I don't want to take them from those that think otherwise.

So, to get back on point, all of this is moot. Keep the endings you have, but consider that it does you no good to continually object to and deny others a different way and a way to enjoy the game too.

[CronoDragoon]

Troxa wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Troxa wrote...

LOL.....you know....I really hope I don't see a future Bioware announce Mass4 with the return of Shepard.....with quotes "Shepard lives because the fans demanded it"..........that would be taking the ****** big time.
It isn't about that, there is no way to make sense of the story.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/playlist

Opinions are opinions.

Troxa wrote... 

If shep was a tragic hero then i can see shep dying
Tragic and epic genres and how BW got them mixed... the opinion of a professional writer
The Hero's Journey: Return with the Elixir

Yet Shepard has been a tragic hero since ME1.

you just say opinions oppinions when you can't counter.
Shepard is not tragic & never has been, a tragic character is for  exampel Kratos from God Of War 3 a character that has flaws

A tragic hero is actually the hero of a tragedy. Since ME3 is a comedy, not a tragedy, Shepard is not a tragic hero. This is actually a relatively easy distinction.

[mhammer50]

OP thank you for putting into words what at least I feel about these endings. I doubt anything will come of it, but here's hoping.

[3DandBeyond]

mhammer50 wrote...

OP thank you for putting into words what at least I feel about these endings. I doubt anything will come of it, but here's hoping.

Thank you for posting-just saying things are only possible if you ask.