6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Firstly you have no evidence that you die in control, you change and your body dies but same can be said about those who are religious and believe in a soul. Their bodies die too yet they believe they live on in a different form. Control change is also merely a different form. Secondly you say it was genocide in Arrival so by your logic you do not become genocidal at the end of ME3, you remain genocidal since Arrival so why are you not asking for Arrival to change instead of ME3 ending? Arrival made you genocidal not the ME3 ending by your logic.

Control ending: Thru her/his death, I was created ... pretty much for that

And again where does it say his or her beliefs change, his or her morality changes or that his or her memories no longer exist and influence every choice made? His or her body does die and a change of form is something new akin to death but does not mean no longer feels the same way or would not choose the same things. Now I personally am not religious and I do not believe in a soul but what I do believe is every choice, morality and personal trait comes from memories which influence who you are and become as a person. The new form has those memories and even if gained new ones it still was shown to do what I wanted it to do so my Shepard still existed in a sense that it carried out his will and shown to do so.

[drayfish]

saracen16 wrote...

And by "doing the right thing", you will force your demands on everyone who plays the game, and that makes you no better than the Shepard who imposes his will on the galaxy. However, the latter, Shepard, has no choice in that matter, but you do. Your parents in the military would understand that there is no easy way out. Never. The story's ending choices do not advocate any of the choices as a valid course of action for humanity. They only add to debate within the universe. Science fiction is greater for exploring these issues philosophically, as these are the hard questions that will haunt humankind in the years to come.

(I'm sure I'm just repeating what others have already said, but...)
 
I disagree wholly with this sentiment. The game forces you to choose one of these options - genocide of allies; eugenics to solve racism; or totalitarian mind-wiping - as the only means of winning a war. (They could have chose massive, non-racially specific casualties, or something – they didn't.) At which point it sugarcoats the horrors of these choices with a blissful win state that utterly undermines the atrocity that brought it into being and celebrates Shepard's name for generations to come.

If they genuinely wanted to inspire debate and philosophical musing there would (there could in good conscience) be no such white-washing vagary. To dismiss or glorify such horror because it's 'just a game' is an act of outrageous irresponsibility on the writers behalf.
 
Truly: what as a people, what as audiences of a piece of art, can we take from this text that is profitable? We now know which violations of social freedoms we are willing to inflict upon every living being in order to win a videogame? How is that in any way enriching to us? How does that inspire self-reflection or wonder?
 

[XqctaX]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And this is selfish too. In fact, even more so, since the objective is to please the happy even more. 

Those of us who like the game are not as selfish as those who do not. You had EC, even Leviathan was partially ending related even if did not change the ending it explains the backstory of what the Catalyst is and how it came to be. Omega is potentially the first DLC not in theory relating to the ending.

that just a blatant lie. seriously. 
WE all got the damn EC and it was optional. 
so dont go saying those that didnt like the game got something more than you did 

your side of the argument is "to stop some people from getting what they want is least selfish"
while the other side "wants those that got the least to get something they want"

and you call that selfish, you should be ashamed of yourself. seriously.

Edit. im leaving the thread. to much Drones spewing BS all over:sick:

Modifié par XqctaX, 30 août 2012 - 10:27 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And this is selfish too. In fact, even more so, since the objective is to please the happy even more. 

Those of us who like the game are not as selfish as those who do not. You had EC, even Leviathan was partially ending related even if did not change the ending it explains the backstory of what the Catalyst is and how it came to be. Omega is potentially the first DLC not in theory relating to the ending.

I had a bad feeling that Omega has to do something with ending too... And that´s not how you are making the art when you cut out some important content related to main plot and sell it later, just imagine how great it would be if every writer took away few pages from the middle of book to sell them later.

Thats fallacy, what you actually saying is why are the books not infinite. Just because new content is added does not mean it is cut. When you buy a trilogy of books the last book is not cut from the first, it is adding to it at a later date.

[dreman9999]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Xellith wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Your post doesn't bother me because I didn't bother reading past the part I quoted earlier.

@ the bolded part.

That wasn't the point I was making. Facebook polls that have an upward of 25K votes (larger sample size than any EC poll on BSN) suggests that the majority like the EC ending. They will not push back their DLC schedule for you and the minority.

I'm not even trying to sound harsh. This is what it is. Capitalism. 

https://www.facebook...6509146424475/  Thats the official one I believe.

Correct.

Over 25K votes.

~20.6 K of those played the EC. 17K of those that played it at least met most of their expectations.

So the people who completely hate it are the minority. Funny.

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 août 2012 - 10:28 .

[3DandBeyond]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Your post doesn't bother me because I didn't bother reading past the part I quoted earlier.

@ the bolded part.

That wasn't the point I was making. Facebook polls that have an upward of 25K votes (larger sample size than any EC poll on BSN) suggests that the majority like the EC ending. They will not push back their DLC schedule for you and the minority.

I'm not even trying to sound harsh. This is what it is. Capitalism. 

But again you aren't being genuine about this.  You have read other posts of mine and you know very well I was not saying they should push back making other DLC-you keep saying that, but where do I ever ask them to do this?  Where did I ever say "forget the other DLC you have planned", but I'd rather see them do both at once or that DLC you desire might not ever see the light of day.  Maybe they had 6 DLC packs planned and now it's down to 4 because they've already lost money.  And there are indications they did lose money.  Would it be a good thing if they just abandoned any more DLC because they are bleeding customers and money, or would it be better if they found a simple way to fix this for those that want it and would pay for it, that might make your DLC come out a bit later-especially if the choice was late DLC or cancelled DLC?

I'm suggesting a way to retain and regain customers lost so that DLC, all DLC if more viable.  What's selfish about that?  And I didn't ever tell them they needed to do it my way or cater to me-I asked them to go back and look at what made people fall in love with the games to begin with.  To take a fresh look at what made them great and then think about it.

[Dragoonlordz]

XqctaX wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And this is selfish too. In fact, even more so, since the objective is to please the happy even more. 

Those of us who like the game are not as selfish as those who do not. You had EC, even Leviathan was partially ending related even if did not change the ending it explains the backstory of what the Catalyst is and how it came to be. Omega is potentially the first DLC not in theory relating to the ending.

that just a blatant lie. seriously. 
WE all got the damn EC and it was optional. 
so dont go saying those that didnt like the game got something more than you did 

your side of the argument is "to stop some people from getting what they want is least selfish"
while the other side "wants those that got the least to get something they want"

and you call that selfish, you should be ashamed of yourself. seriously.

Nonsense. Your logic is false. The other side is not saying those who got least get something they want while I am according to you saying stop them getting what they want. Your bias is so blatent it is shocking and the fact you resorted to term drone in your edit further makes your standpoint obvious. I am saying their have been two ending related DLC's and I want a non ending one. The other side is saying they want a third ending related DLC.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 30 août 2012 - 10:39 .

[MegaSovereign]

3DandBeyond wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Your post doesn't bother me because I didn't bother reading past the part I quoted earlier.

@ the bolded part.

That wasn't the point I was making. Facebook polls that have an upward of 25K votes (larger sample size than any EC poll on BSN) suggests that the majority like the EC ending. They will not push back their DLC schedule for you and the minority.

I'm not even trying to sound harsh. This is what it is. Capitalism. 

But again you aren't being genuine about this.  You have read other posts of mine and you know very well I was not saying they should push back making other DLC-you keep saying that, but where do I ever ask them to do this?  Where did I ever say "forget the other DLC you have planned", but I'd rather see them do both at once or that DLC you desire might not ever see the light of day.  Maybe they had 6 DLC packs planned and now it's down to 4 because they've already lost money.  And there are indications they did lose money.  Would it be a good thing if they just abandoned any more DLC because they are bleeding customers and money, or would it be better if they found a simple way to fix this for those that want it and would pay for it, that might make your DLC come out a bit later-especially if the choice was late DLC or cancelled DLC?

I'm suggesting a way to retain and regain customers lost so that DLC, all DLC if more viable.  What's selfish about that?  And I didn't ever tell them they needed to do it my way or cater to me-I asked them to go back and look at what made people fall in love with the games to begin with.  To take a fresh look at what made them great and then think about it.

I don't even know or give a **** about you.

Quit assuming that this is personal because it's not.

You're also putting words into my mouth. I never said they would forget about other DLC. I'm saying that introducing new ending DLC that isn't planned would push back the schedule for those that are. And yes there are plenty of people who are ready for new DLC that isn't related to the ending fiasco.

[dreman9999]

XqctaX wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And this is selfish too. In fact, even more so, since the objective is to please the happy even more. 

Those of us who like the game are not as selfish as those who do not. You had EC, even Leviathan was partially ending related even if did not change the ending it explains the backstory of what the Catalyst is and how it came to be. Omega is potentially the first DLC not in theory relating to the ending.

that just a blatant lie. seriously. 
WE all got the damn EC and it was optional. 
so dont go saying those that didnt like the game got something more than you did 

your side of the argument is "to stop some people from getting what they want is least selfish"
while the other side "wants those that got the least to get something they want"

and you call that selfish, you should be ashamed of yourself. seriously.

Edit. im leaving the thread. to much Drones spewing BS all over:sick:

It more of the case the BW want to tell the story it wants and not do it based on commity. They added more to the ending as a comprimse. They don't need to do the cahnges to meet you needs and you and your views are not the majority.

[robertthebard]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

If EC is not enough for you, not gonna happen.

There is no easy solution at the end because there is no easy solution to things such as life, peace, and conflict.

You didn't read my long post if you think that's what I want.
The galaxy is a mess and it must be dealt with in the aftermath.  Whole colonies have been destroyed, planets are in ruins, and these endings reflect that, how?

Everything will be easily fixed, people will hold hands and sing together and praise their new reaper overlords or what?

You also missed the discussion about how many of us fully understand things such as life, peace, and conflict.

Here's a new idea-anyone from now on that wants to tell someone else they don't understand that bad things can happen, must explain something bad that has happened to them to prove that they first also understand it.  I do understand it.

This game was never advertised as Shepard trying to get to understand the reapers and give up and die in order to choose some easy way out with no real consequences.

You see, I fully believe the games should have showed those real consequences.  Thessis in ruins, Earth nearly obliterated, Palaven burning, billions dead and dying, and so on.  It should have honored that sacrifice and not glossed it all over.  And the aftermath needed to be real.  Just as the goal should have remained the goal, in order to be authentic.  My opinion.  The trailers said, "Take Earth Back", but you don't.  You get to ask for it back.

It was announced as Shepard's last dance.  The end of the trilogy.  I asked this before and was ignored, but again, BioWare already has problems with the community due to protagonists that are still alive, but not part of the story, see the Dragon Age forums.  Why would they want to inflict that upon themselves again.  I have seen "they should have just killed off the Warden, or Hawke to end it, instead of 'they ride off into the sunset'".  So now, it's "you should have let us see him ride off into the sunset" despite the fact that there have been posts on this very forum that stated that w/out Shepard, there is no ME universe.

You say you ask for it back, but you support Synthesis?  I took my Paragon Shep back through the other night, after Leviathan, to see the dialog changes, and you know what, I didn't see one line in the dialog that said "Can I just shoot the tube now please?".  I despise the whole concept, and you know that I do, we've been down this road before, but you are oversensationalizing to make a point.  The topic title is sensationalized too, and erroneous.  The right thing, according to me, would be to add a legend save at the beam in London.  That's my ideal ending.  I did everything I could, but in the end, they were just too strong.  If I could export at that point, I'd be ecstatic about it, I thought that would have been the ultimate ending to the series.  But I digress, in the vid after, it does show Thessia in ruins, or part of it, it does show Earth in ruins, or part of it.  We saw Palaven early, and I don't recall if there's a shot or not, and we saw the galaxy map on the way in to Earth.  I don't know what Synthesis, Control or Refusal show, as I have two saves there, and both chose Destroy.  One died, and got a funeral, the other didn't die, which I feel was a mistake on BioWare's part, since Shepard is done, might as well let Shepard be done.

[Baa Baa]

Xellith wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Relays destroyed = wasteland? That nova theory isn't true anymore -- if you want to believe it was true pre-EC, it's not worth arguing over, though I'll state for the record that it was not. So we've still got space travel better than TNG-era Star Trek, and no more damage than had already happened. I don't see that as a wasteland. You're projecting.

It was a wasteland prior to a retcon.  Thats if you take what Mac Walters says as accurate.  I honestly dont believe most of what they say anymore...

www.youtube.com/watch

Ah, one of the many reasons I despise Mac Walters.
Ruin the story and bull**** us.

[Applepie_Svk]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Thats fallacy, what you actually saying is why are the books not infinite. Just because new content is added does not mean it is cut. When you buy a trilogy of books the last book is not cut from the first, it is adding to it at a later date.

That´s not fallacy, in original ending we have no idea and valid proof about main antagonist´s existence til last 10 minutes and Leviathan as its creators or origin of Crucible, but with EC we get retcon and yet they keep with they plan that´s why Leviathan in fact just confirming what we already knew from the EC because it wasn´t planned. 

Yes they add it at a later date but they also ask for money - and the magnitude of this DLC in story is greater than anything other which we already saw past 2 previous games because it´s has answers for purpose and existence of the Reapers ...

And it´s difference betwen 
"new content which expanding upon the story"  and "content which belongs to core theme"

I´ll give you just an analogy for Leviathan and Catalyst in EC for ME1 and ME2:
ME1  - Vigil and Sovereign - buy dlc LOL 
ME2 - Harbinger and TIM - buy dlc LOL

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 30 août 2012 - 10:41 .

[Moirai]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Xellith wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Your post doesn't bother me because I didn't bother reading past the part I quoted earlier.

@ the bolded part.

That wasn't the point I was making. Facebook polls that have an upward of 25K votes (larger sample size than any EC poll on BSN) suggests that the majority like the EC ending. They will not push back their DLC schedule for you and the minority.

I'm not even trying to sound harsh. This is what it is. Capitalism. 

https://www.facebook...6509146424475/  Thats the official one I believe.

Correct.

Over 25K votes.

~20.6 K of those played the EC. 17K of those that played it at least met most of their expectations.

And as I stated at that time and tweeted Bioware; that poll was flawed as a true measue of whether customers thought it was fundamentally 'good' or not.

Meeting or not meeting someones 'expectations' means nothing, unless you know what peoples expectations actually are. That's precisely why Bioware worded the poll that way. They were never gouing to ask whether people thought it was good or bad. Way too dangerous territory that...

As it was, it did pretty much meet my expectations. But only because I was expecting so little from it in the first place. I didn't go into any great depth in reading comments, admittedly. But I got the sincere impression that I wasn't alone in that viewpoint.

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

MegaSovereign wrote...

BioWare will ultimately address this flaw in their game. The economics will be too compelling. And the people there who ultimately decide to do it, won't care about "art." They'll do it because it makes money for shareholders.

This is under the assumption that the majority loathed the EC.

If this is then the laws of mighty Capitalism will take it from here and they will eventually release new "ending DLC" But that's the thing, the majority doesn't loathe it. Hell I'd even argue that some of those that didn't like it wouldn't pay extra for an ending they would like.

It isn't really an assumption.  In addition to various polls on the issue, I have spoken to several retailers about this.  Uniformly they report that players really disliked the endings (including the EC) because it isn't consistent with what they thought they were getting.  It wasn't like the other two installments.  This is the sentiment of the "vast majority."

More importantly, they report that their customers who were most likely to dislike the endings were players who pre-ordered the game, particularly those who came to "launch night" events.  So the more dedicated fans were more likely to have a strong negative reaction to the game's ending. 

It is actually quite amusing to talk to them.  Almost all of them played the game themselves.  And even the store personnel disliked the endings.  So in addition to disappointing BioWare's loyal fans, they have lost some the cache they had earned with retailers, who really deal with gamers on a daily basis.

Thus my conclusion that someone who is just a savvy business person will ultimately see the value in addressing what is an obvious market opportunity.

[drayfish]

dreman9999 wrote...

It more of the case the BW want to tell the story it wants and not do it based on commity. They added more to the ending as a comprimse. They don't need to do the cahnges to meet you needs and you and your views are not the majority.

It's interesting that at one point - for several years actually - the celebrated catch-cry of Mass Effect was that 'there is no canon'; 'this is your Shepard, your story'.  Suddenly now at the end anyone who is dissatisfied with the conclusion gets painted as a crybaby entitled whiner who can't appreciate that this was Bioware's story all along. 

For those who are happy with the conclusion as it stands, I am glad for you (and envious), but there is no need for anyone to inflict their personal opinion on anyone else, telling them they have no right to feel the way they do about their own individual experience of the game.

Modifié par drayfish, 30 août 2012 - 10:40 .

[Warrior Craess]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Many of us have said this repeatedly-the endings are genocide, totalitarianism, and forced eugenics, along with suicide.

Not to sound arrogant but I simply couldn't continue reading after this.

That's a massive over-simplification of what the endings actually are. Especially by calling Destroy "genocide." That's like saying Shepard murdered the victim left behind at Virmire. And this is wrong. Both instances are actually collateral damage.


Above all "Do the Right Thing" implies that Bioware did something wrong. Step back for a second and consider the fact that this is just a videogame. If you do that then you would understand why your plea is silly.

lol have you seen the amount of trouble people can get into over "collateral damage" in real life? 

[MegaSovereign]

Moirai wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Xellith wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Your post doesn't bother me because I didn't bother reading past the part I quoted earlier.

@ the bolded part.

That wasn't the point I was making. Facebook polls that have an upward of 25K votes (larger sample size than any EC poll on BSN) suggests that the majority like the EC ending. They will not push back their DLC schedule for you and the minority.

I'm not even trying to sound harsh. This is what it is. Capitalism. 

https://www.facebook...6509146424475/  Thats the official one I believe.

Correct.

Over 25K votes.

~20.6 K of those played the EC. 17K of those that played it at least met most of their expectations.

And as I stated at that time and tweeted Bioware; that poll was flawed as a true measue of whether customers thought it was fundamentally 'good' or not.

Meeting or not meeting someones 'expectations' means nothing, unless you know what peoples expectations actually are. That's precisely why Bioware worded the poll that way. They were never gouing to ask whether people thought it was good or bad. Way too dangerous territory that...

As it was, it did pretty much meet my expectations. But only because I was expecting so little from it in the first place. I didn't go into any great depth in reading comments, admittedly. But I got the sincere impression that I wasn't alone in that viewpoint.

Trying to argue semantics?

People who liked it would obviously vote the higher up options.

[Xellith]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Xellith wrote...


https://www.facebook...6509146424475/  Thats the official one I believe.

Funny - it´s not about happiness but about expectations...

I was expecting just a polishing and yet they retcon endings and add one more which they lied about - so in fact it didn´t met my expectations...

[clennon8]

Screw asking Bioware for anything any more. I'll be content to just watch the franchise choke on Bioware's arrogance. You rip off an ending from another contemporary game and then glom it onto your own while hiding behind a cloak of "artistic integrity," you deserve to watch your IP burn to the ground. So, burn Mass Effect, burn.

[Wrath of Bastila Shan]

MegaSovereign wrote...

So is the Geth sacrifice in Destroy or the 300K batarians in Arrival.

That was the point I was getting at, all those oversimplifications are flawed.

Shepard wasn't actively seeking to kill any of those people. His hands were tied. He did what he had to do.

I agree 150%.  MegaSovereign gets it.

Modifié par Wrath of Bastila Shan, 30 août 2012 - 10:45 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

"We're more like the co-creators of Mass Effect." -Casey Hudson.

And isn't sacrafice just so effective when it's forced onto the player?

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 30 août 2012 - 10:43 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Wrath of Bastila Shan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

So is the Geth sacrifice in Destroy or the 300K batarians in Arrival.

That was the point I was getting at, all those oversimplifications are flawed.

Shepard wasn't actively seeking to kill any of those people. His hands were tied. He did what he had to do.

MegaSovereign gets it.

It's because Mega is actually one of the only intelligent people on these forums...

[Baa Baa]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

"We're more like the co-creators of Mass Effect." -Casey Hudson.

And isn't sacrafice just so effective when it's forced onto the player?

10 min later
"It's our story."

[Applepie_Svk]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

"We're more like the co-creators of Mass Effect." -Casey Hudson.

I remeber also something :

" Fans ask for such ending, we made it from their feedback"

or 

" I have recieved the message from 3rd grade scholar from Germeny about how cool it would if in some DLC would be with Reapers on cave paintings... " 

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 30 août 2012 - 10:47 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

XqctaX wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

And this is selfish too. In fact, even more so, since the objective is to please the happy even more. 

Those of us who like the game are not as selfish as those who do not. You had EC, even Leviathan was partially ending related even if did not change the ending it explains the backstory of what the Catalyst is and how it came to be. Omega is potentially the first DLC not in theory relating to the ending.

that just a blatant lie. seriously. 
WE all got the damn EC and it was optional. 
so dont go saying those that didnt like the game got something more than you did 

your side of the argument is "to stop some people from getting what they want is least selfish"
while the other side "wants those that got the least to get something they want"

and you call that selfish, you should be ashamed of yourself. seriously.

Nonsense. Your logic is false. The other side is not saying those who got least get something they want while I am according to you saying stop them getting what they want. Your bias is so blatent it is shocking and the fact you resorted to term drone in your edit further makes your standpoint obvious. I am saying their have been two ending related DLC's and I want a non ending one. The other side is saying they want a third ending related DLC.

An internet tough guy, VS the king of internet tough guys.

Who will win, who will be victorious? Whos internet dignity will be left intact, so that others may gaze upon it worthlessly?

Find out, tonight at 7pm EST.

IT'S THE BRAWL TO PIN THE INTERNET TO THE WALL!

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 30 août 2012 - 10:46 .