Ieldra2 wrote...
Snypy wrote...
But what ME3 ending boils down to is that no matter what you do in life, no matter how well you prepare, your final action will result in an atrocity.
How does choosing Control result in an atrocity?
If I wanted to learn how our decisions and lives are meaningless (nihilism), I would read Nietzsche's books. I certainly wouldn't have played a sci-fi trilogy which motivates players until the last 15 minutes that almost anything is achievable.
Bolded for emphasis.
I would also like to draw attention to Javik's statement: "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. The silence is your answer." Whether you are forced to sacrifice your life is an open question. I don't think so. But you are forced to sacrifice your honor, so to speak. That's the true sacrifice of ME3's ending. If you are not willing to do it and choose Refuse, you reap the consequences. This has nothing to do with nihilism. It sends the message that there are times when outcomes are more important than principles. Life itself, the lives of those who survived to this point and those you might still save by your decision - those are more important than your principles. More important than wreaking justice on the Reapers, more important than the life of any one species, more important than the fear that power will corrupt you, more important than the biochemical purity of organic life.
It's not nihilism. It's just that the message doesn't agree with your value hierarchy. For me, all three main choices are acceptable. Because ending the cycle and saving the civilizations of the galaxy - the present one, the future ones and depending on your viewpoint even the past ones - from the harvesting, yes, I consider that *way* more important than sticking to some moral principle.
The choice at the end is not just in what Shepard is willing to personally sacrifice, but also in what kind of sacrifice s/he is placing upon the galaxy. It's the unknown sacrifice that all are being forced to make without consent and with certain probable outcomes. It's making the determination for them that any life no matter how diminished is worth living if some immediate threat is to be easily averted. Who cares what it means for the future? Well, Shepard would. These are all choices that a certain Shepard would willingly die for had they been worthy and led logically to some beneficial outcomes. But the benefits are not known and far from probable. Neither good nor bad is inevitable but the bad effects are much easier to logically conclude and many would be almost as instantaneous as the enactment of the choice itself. Atrocity occurs in several ways within each choice.
Control leaves the reapers intact and ever present. You'd have to see the reality of this and what it would mean to people. Imagine if Jeffrey Dahmer were alive and moved next door to you. Then imagine he's destroyed whole civilizations, killed your family, and even now is digesting your spouse or children. Then, imagine he is the size of a skyscraper. It is unrealistic to believe anyone would want this scenario to play out in their lives and ridiculous to think Shepard would feel this is a viable option just on that basis alone. People do not react well to even lesser evils existing amongst them. It's not logical that with no one knowing that Shepard controls the reapers, they'd all be suddenly ok with reapers flying around the galaxy. And Shepard's thoughts and memories are to be uploaded to a system that allowed for the reapers as a solution in the first place. No, there's no possible problem with that. And the conflicts that would arise are easy to see. I have to imagine way too much to envision a happy scenario. I don't have to imagine much to view it as more negative and I am a positive person. So much for finding their own path and self-reliance.
Synthesis is done against people's expressed will. Some people's, including both organics and synthetics. Some organic people within the ME universe had even rejected implants of any kind. The true geth rejected being given understanding like this and it was why the heretics in part aligned with Sovereign in the first place, why the schism occurred and why you did Legion's loyalty mission. And EDI says she's alive. Wow. She already said that to my Shepard in London, how redundant of her, whatever that means. This discussion has been rehashed so many times and you know the deal here.
You can create pages and pages of head canon to explain it all, even that with the integration of tech within organics that everyone can choose their level of evolution as has been said, but the truth is the kid indicates it is to be used for his idea of approaching some form of ultimate evolution or the end of evolution. The tech that is there must in some way be reaper tech, so that's just great. It's not bad enough to have reapers flying around externally being controlled and controlling things. This suffers from some of the same problems that control does. The same flawed tech that allowed for the creation of the reapers as a solution is now to be integrated within people. Great. And since the kid thinks (and so do you) that once synthetics gain a certain level of sentience, sapience, and knowlege (understanding and such), they will inevitably destroy organics. The only thing that has changed here with synthesis is that organics no longer exist, so why would synthetics need to have full understanding of something that no longer exists? Synthetics get full understanding of organics, yet the kid sees organics as fundamentally flawed and in need of augmentation, so why on Earth would synthetics need to understand organics? The whole thing is like a circle in a circle. So much for diversity and forging their own future.
Destroy as it is institutionalizes the idea (it also reinforces past behavior as valid) that some life is less valid. In this instance, it is synthetic life. No one need ever know that Shepard intentionally killed EDI and all synthetics (even you are part synthetic, whatever the heck that means in destroy). No one has to have a clue that Shepard knew it would kill all the geth, all that would be known is the reaction to it. Yay, we're alive. Geth, what geth? It's just like the Krogan and the Rachni all over again. But, this time the stage is set for an even worse cataclysm.
You say that this destruction of organics by synthetics is inevitable (you've argued that it is while I have argued that it is not). Well, if destroy happens as it is now and synthetics are destroyed, such destruction is way more likely to happen and approach inevitability. The Krogan never felt it was ok for the genophage to be forced upon them (synthesis anyone), no matter how it was rationalized. And there was always resentment over it even with some that didn't necessarily agree with it, but understood why it was done or trie to understand. Wrex and Shepard had just such a confrontation over it. So, with destroy every organic in the galaxy is going to be happy to be alive and even maybe at some point, a bit guilty, but they will also know all synthetics died so they could live, they were killed so organics could live. If new synthetics are created and the question is asked about what happened and how organics feel about it, some of the answers might not be pretty ones. Ask some quarians if they were ok with synthetics dying and them living and you know the answer. The Krogan and Rachni would have to also see that any race is expendable and that there is a hierarchy (the Volus have long believed this to be true) as to the valued races in the galaxy. At the top are the Asari, Turians, and Salarians. Below them and emerging are the humans. Below them, it gets a little confusing with the Volus and the Elcor just kind of ignored as non-threatening (they'd be cannon fodder). Below everyone and seen as dangerous would be the Krogan, Rachni, Batarians that are left, and synthetics. The "war" may have shaken things up a bit with humans being a bit elevated, but a lot of this would merely be reinforced. So much for unity and redemption.
Any ME set in a post-ME3 galaxy cannot feature control or synthesis because either one would require living reapers and reaper variants be in existence. No foe could be a credible enemy with reapers in place, not even Leviathan unless there are huge numbers of them-but who wants another reaper fight? I don't, I'm really pretty sick of them especially now that they are just lap dogs.
It also requires the galaxy accept either of 2 concepts that by and large were rejected throughout by all sane, unindoctrinated, and non-reaper people within 3 games. Might as well build the crucible in ME1 and get it over with if either of these are THE choices. Destroy as it now stands is something that within 3 games Shepard can choose to reject. Many statements by Shepard can make destroy a non-choice as well. One being that you don't kill people over here to save people over there.
I don't care what Javik says. Is he now a savant? He even says things that contradict himself and his cycle seemed to have very little honor and didn't do quite as well as this one. So, by all means keep quoting the last person who by some fluke still exists after his cycle went extinct. It's like asking a person who has been divorced repeatedly for some marital advice. The protheans were ruthless tyrants with a segmented society. They had a warrior class that knew nothing of what their scientist class was doing and they subjugated other races, advanced some like the rachni to be used in war, and just enslaved others. So, yes I think that we should consult the Ancient Romans on how to deal with current events. Or perhaps it's best to just go ask Barla Von what he would do about all this. The point is in the game you are given the best possible person to consult-that person is written that way as one who rises above the rest. It's rather unrealistic sure, but that's what the game set up.
If you think that Shepard has the final say and right to make one of these choices then the person that should be consulted on all of this is Shepard. The one you played in 3 games. When I do that I see a person that does not believe she has the right to damn everyone to some life that is less without full autonomy. I see a person that wouldn't choose the easy way to avoid a current threat and that would force the galaxy to face a future that is not of their own making. I see a person that could not murder her allies-the only race that always supported her knowledge that the reapers were coming and were a threat and that wanted to follow her and help her. I see a person that learned a lot from others and that gave them a whole bunch back and that could not just take that all away because it would just finish things. She would not just give in to some solution that as far as she knows is set to deal with a problem that is not valid.
The person that I'd consult on what to do is Shepard and all that she has said and done and none of the current choices is something she could live with or die for. Make no mistake she would totally give up her life for something that would help people and she's done that before, but not for some flavor of something I see as immoral. You made a big case of it in another thread that I was forcing my morality on other people by saying these choices are immoral and you were totally wrong. I was applying morality to my own game and the character I played. The game was forcing immoral choices on me. And yes it is about principles, in part. It's also about doing the wrong thing for what seems to be the right reasons without really applying some reality testing. Occam's razor applies here and leads to at best uncertain outcomes and at worst and way more likely, not so good outcomes. The fact that the choices are immoral is the first stop sign in the road. The outcomes are a dead end.
Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 19 septembre 2012 - 01:58 .
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