Aller au contenu

Photo

One Last Plea - Do the Right Thing


  • Ce sujet est fermé Ce sujet est fermé
6432 réponses à ce sujet

#4451
Netsfn1427

Netsfn1427
  • Members
  • 184 messages

Xilizhra wrote...

But they're not overhauling it at this point. That stuff makes interesting to discuss for future games of this nature, but not really what is going to happen with ME3.

If this is the case, we should be excoriating Bioware on the matter, not letting them rest.


That's a different question. If your asking how the choice system can be improved, how if they wanted to make choices more impactful in the future, I'm all for it. I love ME3, but it's not a perfect game. Just like ME2 wasn't a perfect game and certainly not ME1. But this is about asking for a major change in the experience of the current game. 

#4452
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But they're not overhauling it at this point. That stuff makes interesting to discuss for future games of this nature, but not really what is going to happen with ME3.

If this is the case, we should be excoriating Bioware on the matter, not letting them rest.


That's a different question. If your asking how the choice system can be improved, how if they wanted to make choices more impactful in the future, I'm all for it. I love ME3, but it's not a perfect game. Just like ME2 wasn't a perfect game and certainly not ME1. But this is about asking for a major change in the experience of the current game. 

Yes. We ask for it and should continue to ask for it, and we should never stop until it happens. Even if it has to involve an ME4-based remake of ME3, we shouldn't stop.

#4453
Netsfn1427

Netsfn1427
  • Members
  • 184 messages

AresKeith wrote...

by like I posted earlier to you, If your so against the suggestion of a DLC that you don't have to buy, how would you feel if they did this through pre-ending DLCs which you can still avoid the ending that were suggesting?


It would still be having to go out of my way to "fail" at the game, since I know it's possible. It's why I look up on Youtube the ME3 characters that are present if your ME2 characters die. I just can't bring myself to deliberately fail in the Suicide Mission order to achieve a different outcome. I can switch up Paragon/Renegade, but I can't kill Wrex just to kill him. 

Also, as an aspiring writer, it also bothers me a bit with the desire to see things changed. The EC was different because the fundamental point of the difficult decision remains. In fact by clarifying the endings you crystalize the choices even more. The writers had an intention and a story they wished to tell. They should not have to change it based on what some people think. Otherwise it loses impact. Can you imagine if someone told Shakespeare he had to change Romeo and Juliet because it ended on a down note? Or Hamlet's ending wasn't uplifting? (and I say that, hating Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet, but acknowledging that they're classics)

I'm not saying ME is a modern classic that compares with that level if literature. But as much as people joke about artistic integrity, it exists. Otherwise "sell-out" wouldn't be an insult. 

#4454
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Xilizhra wrote...

You know, it's entirely possible that they could introduce an IT-ish ending that's only canon if you install it.


Yes, exactly and I've even suggested that they could consider all different kinds of DLC.  I think in fact some are thinking too linearly within the game and think of it in that it must be like other games and you can't change anything now or else.  Well, DLC could be like an ala carte menu and why not?  We are all limiting ourselves because we keep making the same mistakes, and I make plenty of them.

Why not suggest all kinds of things that could be done.  This is sci fi and it's a story and there is so much that could be fun with it and even suggesting new endings-what is wrong with that? 

Why can't this become what it had the promise to be-a truly interactive story.

I've said it before.  I think it could have been or could still be a lot of fun to have ME expansions, not just DLC but more like true mini-games and it's prime for that.  Add on adventures within this galaxy and even this universe.  Just take Shepard for instance.  Shepard as a Spectre-that was pretty much a useless classification.  But story heavy.  Not an MMO because you do limit the fanbase there.

I just believe that we sit here, drawing way too many lines in the sand and anything that falls outside of our own idea of what must seriously fit in with how the galaxy faces war and the sacrifices made, is ignored.  Why not explore what synthesis could mean?  I don't have a problem with that as one idea of what you could choose.  I have a problem in that all choices limit you to depressing outcomes.  I could fully see exploring all of them if there was one ending that delivered upon the promise implicit within ME1 and 2-that you could destroy the reapers once and for all and have a way to really win with Shepard and friends alive.  So what if that sounds too happy, but why not also explore the aftermath of that?  It's not happy funtime.

In another thread someone suggested making new games off of all choices and I didn't agree with it, but the problem is I was looking at it from the place of not having one ending I like.  If there was one that I liked I could then see value in doing that.  3 or 4 separate games.  One for each ending that showed the aftermaths of each.  And why not?

A lot of things could be done, if we all just stop thinking that everything must be only about what we each want.  We can ask them, suggest things, and maybe nothing will happen, but all of it could lead to a lot more fun.

#4455
Netsfn1427

Netsfn1427
  • Members
  • 184 messages

Xilizhra wrote...

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But they're not overhauling it at this point. That stuff makes interesting to discuss for future games of this nature, but not really what is going to happen with ME3.

If this is the case, we should be excoriating Bioware on the matter, not letting them rest.


That's a different question. If your asking how the choice system can be improved, how if they wanted to make choices more impactful in the future, I'm all for it. I love ME3, but it's not a perfect game. Just like ME2 wasn't a perfect game and certainly not ME1. But this is about asking for a major change in the experience of the current game. 

Yes. We ask for it and should continue to ask for it, and we should never stop until it happens. Even if it has to involve an ME4-based remake of ME3, we shouldn't stop.


ME4 remake of 3? Please no. There's a massive ME universe out there. No more Reapers. They've had their time in the sun. Lets get new villians and new characters in general to learn about, love and hate. 

#4456
Snypy

Snypy
  • Members
  • 715 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...

NorDee65 wrote...

I can relate to your worries somewhat. However, what I do not understand is how an additional DLC at extra charge, which you do not have to download at all, but made for those like me who absolutely loathe the endings, can effect your enjoyment of the game? If this DLC where a mandatory download you'd be right in being furious, but that is not what we want.

If I had bought this game for the PC, and someone could mod an alternative ending I liked, I'd take it, but as it is this is not possible for the consoles and I am therefore dependent on Bioware to relent a bit.

And this is not only to enjoy one game, but all three, because as it stands now, I cannot bring myself ever to replay any ME game, and the anouncement that CH et al. are not only planning more ME but also something totally new leaves me underwhelmed.

But that is not how I want that. I want to have my unbounding enthusiasm back for any Bioware project.


It's as Ieldra2 posted, DLC becomes canon. I can't just ignore that Miranda can't have children after LoTSB. It's not neccessary for the main plot, but it changes her view on her character. My entire perception of her backstory (maybe her father realized she wasn't perfect and let her go rather than she escaped, etc.) changed as a result. I never got Arrival on the 360, but I did for my definitive PC playthroughs. Because it was still canon. Paid DLC, content still counts towards canon. 

So that's why it's not as simple as ignoring it. 


It's not that Miranda can't have children after LotSB. The fact is that she couldn't have had them even before. You just didn't know about it before, because she didn't tell you. (Why would she, by the way?) It's the same thing with the ending. There could be an optional DLC, as 3D suggested, which would allow the player to find a very specific item to improve the Crucible so that it doesn't do so much collateral damage. Even the Starchild says that the Crucible is almost intact. Does it mean that it's not damaged or that there could be a component to enhance its effectiveness? We don't know at this time.

Additionally, the DLC providing alternative endings shouldn't necessarily be considered a canon. It's likely that ME4 will be a prequel and that there will never be a sequel to ME3. (The talk about new IP makes it even more likely.) Therefore, the DLC would only make the experience of replaying ME1-3 more enjoyable to many players, but it wouldn't have any major effect on the future of ME universe. And if there ever will be a sequel to ME3, the consequences of the DLC could be marginalized (like the decision concerning the Rachani queen in ME1).

#4457
sdinc009

sdinc009
  • Members
  • 253 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

by like I posted earlier to you, If your so against the suggestion of a DLC that you don't have to buy, how would you feel if they did this through pre-ending DLCs which you can still avoid the ending that were suggesting?


It would still be having to go out of my way to "fail" at the game, since I know it's possible. It's why I look up on Youtube the ME3 characters that are present if your ME2 characters die. I just can't bring myself to deliberately fail in the Suicide Mission order to achieve a different outcome. I can switch up Paragon/Renegade, but I can't kill Wrex just to kill him. 

Also, as an aspiring writer, it also bothers me a bit with the desire to see things changed. The EC was different because the fundamental point of the difficult decision remains. In fact by clarifying the endings you crystalize the choices even more. The writers had an intention and a story they wished to tell. They should not have to change it based on what some people think. Otherwise it loses impact. Can you imagine if someone told Shakespeare he had to change Romeo and Juliet because it ended on a down note? Or Hamlet's ending wasn't uplifting? (and I say that, hating Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet, but acknowledging that they're classics)

I'm not saying ME is a modern classic that compares with that level if literature. But as much as people joke about artistic integrity, it exists. Otherwise "sell-out" wouldn't be an insult. 


Really, that's where you want to go with it cause you do know he changed King Lear right? Sir Arthor Conan Doyle retconned the fate of Sherlocke Holmes after he killed him off because of the fans. Music can be changed, art can be changed, films can be changed. I think there's like 6 or 7 different versions of Blade Runner. And if you're an aspiring writer you'd better get comfortable with this concept because in all likelihood you will too.

#4458
AresKeith

AresKeith
  • Members
  • 34 128 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

by like I posted earlier to you, If your so against the suggestion of a DLC that you don't have to buy, how would you feel if they did this through pre-ending DLCs which you can still avoid the ending that were suggesting?


It would still be having to go out of my way to "fail" at the game, since I know it's possible. It's why I look up on Youtube the ME3 characters that are present if your ME2 characters die. I just can't bring myself to deliberately fail in the Suicide Mission order to achieve a different outcome. I can switch up Paragon/Renegade, but I can't kill Wrex just to kill him. 

Also, as an aspiring writer, it also bothers me a bit with the desire to see things changed. The EC was different because the fundamental point of the difficult decision remains. In fact by clarifying the endings you crystalize the choices even more. The writers had an intention and a story they wished to tell. They should not have to change it based on what some people think. Otherwise it loses impact. Can you imagine if someone told Shakespeare he had to change Romeo and Juliet because it ended on a down note? Or Hamlet's ending wasn't uplifting? (and I say that, hating Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet, but acknowledging that they're classics)

I'm not saying ME is a modern classic that compares with that level if literature. But as much as people joke about artistic integrity, it exists. Otherwise "sell-out" wouldn't be an insult. 


how would you be trying to make yourself fail if you don't have to pick that ending?

And we do know artistic integrity exist, but what Bioware seems to forget when they use that excuse is that Video Games are mostly a product also, and this idea wouldn't affect their intention when they made this suggestion open with the EC

#4459
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

ME4 remake of 3? Please no. There's a massive ME universe out there. No more Reapers. They've had their time in the sun. Lets get new villians and new characters in general to learn about, love and hate.

All they need to do is fix one egregious screwup in the last ten minutes. It's easy, comparatively speaking. Certainly possible. Make it optionally canon if need be. Then all this can fade.

#4460
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

by like I posted earlier to you, If your so against the suggestion of a DLC that you don't have to buy, how would you feel if they did this through pre-ending DLCs which you can still avoid the ending that were suggesting?


It would still be having to go out of my way to "fail" at the game, since I know it's possible. It's why I look up on Youtube the ME3 characters that are present if your ME2 characters die. I just can't bring myself to deliberately fail in the Suicide Mission order to achieve a different outcome. I can switch up Paragon/Renegade, but I can't kill Wrex just to kill him. 

Also, as an aspiring writer, it also bothers me a bit with the desire to see things changed. The EC was different because the fundamental point of the difficult decision remains. In fact by clarifying the endings you crystalize the choices even more. The writers had an intention and a story they wished to tell. They should not have to change it based on what some people think. Otherwise it loses impact. Can you imagine if someone told Shakespeare he had to change Romeo and Juliet because it ended on a down note? Or Hamlet's ending wasn't uplifting? (and I say that, hating Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet, but acknowledging that they're classics)

I'm not saying ME is a modern classic that compares with that level if literature. But as much as people joke about artistic integrity, it exists. Otherwise "sell-out" wouldn't be an insult. 


You do understand that well-known authors of merit have changed endings based upon fans' wishes and that as a writer any story you write will go through a blender before it gets to fans and it may bear little resemblance to what you originally wanted to tell.  Movies are played for focus groups and endings are often changed to suit them.  Games undergo beta testing for bugs as well as content issues.

Authors who have changed endings--Dickens, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Verne, Tolstoy.  Ever see a movie that has a director's cut?  You do know why and how that happens, right?

As a writer you are completely free to tell the story you want to tell and if no one buys it you are free to keep it in its pristine unread condition.  You may not buy much mac and cheese that way, but it's about the art.  Unfortunately, any author will say that writing is as much or more a craft as it is art.  Before people buy it, many eyes will peruse it and will tell you to change it.

And you really do need to research all of the source material used for ME3's ending.  To claim artistic integrity it should be your own complete work-games are derivative and the ending of ME3 is particularly so.  And stories do have to have internal integrity-endings must fit with internal lore and promises that exist within. This view of artistic integrity as you see it says BW could have shown Shepard at the citadel surrounded by killer clowns who said this was all a joke as long as they mentioned reapers, war, the crucible, and Earth or some such.  It wouldn't have to follow any themes or fit with the plot.  It's their vision and you can either like it or just move on.  The point is that's a very destructive view of things.  If you don't like something that you've bought, you can take it back, remain silent and speak with your money-that says nothing because they don't know what's wrong.  Or you can speak up and try to be constructive where possible and make suggestions.

I guarantee you if you send a publisher your manuscript and they say they like everything and would buy it if the ending was better, you would change the ending.  If you wouldn't then you are writing for an audience of one.  Artistic integrity is not bankable.  And companies do need to pay attention to their customers.  They are the canaries in the coal mine.

Even Leonardo da Vinci had to eat and he often created things as commissioned works under benefactors with specific instructions as to what was wanted.

Oh and on King Lear-there's actually 3 different versions of the ending.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 19 septembre 2012 - 09:55 .


#4461
GarvakD

GarvakD
  • Members
  • 215 messages

Snypy wrote...

GarvakD wrote...

My thoughts are similar to yours OP. All I want is another few hours with Shepard. This should either be carried out in an elongated post ME3 DLC or you play as Shepard first three hours of ME4 (which should be the final ME game). I'm going to use destroy ending as an example since its the one I always choose, except for once (it would vary from choice to choice. Synthesis people are screwed and refuse would have to be allowed. This would lead to heavy losses though due to Reaper strength). Crew and LI would come to pull Shep out of rubble. Recovery process and reuniting with crew and LI. Afterwards, Shep would leave with LI (like with Tali to Rannoch). Maybe, shortly afterward, Shep would be called up to deal with a final Cerberus remnant in a LotSB sequence mission. Then finish and return with/to LI and live out damned happy retirement. But as Shep, I would probably help with rebuilding efforts occasionally somehow, but w/e. that's it. That's all I want.

As for more dialogue with LI throughout the game, I am mostly fine. I take my LI on every mission possible so experience all dialogue in addition to third person an cinematic dialogue. Maybe one more cutscene dialogue on the Normandy at some point.


I think that Shep has to be pulled out from the rubble by someone from the Hackett's fleet, or by a ME2 squadmate who stayed on Earth (Miranda?), unless BioWare would radically change the ending. Because it could take several days for Normandy to be spaceworthy again after crash-landing on that planet, and Shep wouldn't be able to survive in the ruble for so long. 

Anyway, the reunion ending could start as Shep wakes up in the hospital and sees his/her LI again for the first time. I personally don't need any fighting in that DLC -- just a short tour around the galaxy. You know, I'd like to see planets like Earth, Palven, Rannoch, and Thessia as they are being rebuilt; dialogues with (former) squadmates and ordinary people on those planets would be very interesting. And then the last decision for Shep: either retire (with/without LI) or lead the galaxy. That's all. There's nothing more I'd like from the reunion DLC.


Agreed.  Personally, I don't want any more fighting.  Some people I discussed it with wanted it, and if I had to compromise for a bit of fighting for this ending, I would.  Otherwise, waking up in a hospital to my LI and touring the galaxy and rebuilding efforts and then, as you said, retiring or leading would be great.  "There's nothing more I'd like from the reunion DLC"

And on morality, as Dreman is saying, it is subjective.  I choose Destroy.  If I could have saved the Geth and EDI somehow for a perfect, fairy tale ending I would have (while destroying the reapers in the process).  But despite the genocide of an entire, basically newly born species which I oversaw, I viewed their sacrifice as almost petty in comparison to the destruction of the reapers, and therefore was not very difficult of a choice for me.  

#4462
Lunch Box1912

Lunch Box1912
  • Members
  • 3 159 messages

masleslie wrote...

I sympathize with much of what you say & I feel for your (and many fans) disappointment with the endings, but actually the more time I have to think about it the more I believe we should have expected something like this as an ending. I fully expect to get shot down in flames for saying this but please read on.

The truly unique aspect of the Mass Effect games was always the way you were continually confronted with decisions which had real & often dire consequences, often affecting the life & death of much loved characters or even whole worlds. Did it never occur to any of us that the final end to the trilogy would not simply be a bigger battle than ever but a decision of such moral complexity that any choice was all but impossible to make?

Choose destroy and wipe out the geth we had just saved and brought to peaceful reconciliation with the Quarians, as well as killing EDI who had become a trusted friend & crew member. Choose control & stoop to the gross hypocrisy of doing exactly what your enemy has sought all along with no guarantee that you were not simply compromising with the reapers as the Illusive man had. Choose synthesize & treat with contempt the intrinsic self worth of every species whose contributions & sacrifices have made victory possible by transforming them into something else they neither agreed to nor wanted. Refuse to choose & stand by helpless & apathetic as Saren's prophecy that everyone you know & love will all die comes true. That's kind of the point. It is meant to be an impossible choice with no obvious 'happy ending', not to spoil our fun but to challenge us intellectually, emotionally & morally. Which actually it does quite well.



That is definitely true…

Please see Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage.  Excellent video by MrBtongue.

This makes me think of Dragon Age2 Fiction and Applicability (and Tolkein). Bioware took real life situations, events and problems in todays society and molded them into a form where they would be disconnected from the actual events.  They built their own back stories to create the event within the game and confronted you with tough decisions for these events throughout the game.  After really analyzing the game and stepping back to take a look I was kind of shocked of the decisions I made in the game when comparing it to the actual event they molded it from in real life. Obviously circumstances are different but I thought that was very interesting… for all the things they struck out on with that game they absolutely nailed that part.

I would agree that’s what Bioware was aiming for with this ending. I just think it lacks the essence of epic.

Modifié par Lunch Box1912, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:23 .


#4463
Netsfn1427

Netsfn1427
  • Members
  • 184 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

You do understand that well-known authors of merit have changed endings based upon fans' wishes and that as a writer any story you write will go through a blender before it gets to fans and it may bear little resemblance to what you originally wanted to tell.  Movies are played for focus groups and endings are often changed to suit them.  Games undergo beta testing for bugs as well as content issues.

Authors who have changed endings--Dickens, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Verne, Tolstoy.  Ever see a movie that has a director's cut?  You do know why and how that happens, right?

As a writer you are completely free to tell the story you want to tell and if no one buys it you are free to keep it in its pristine unread condition.  You may not buy much mac and cheese that way, but it's about the art.  Unfortunately, any author will say that writing is as much or more a craft as it is art.  Before people buy it, many eyes will peruse it and will tell you to change it.

And you really do need to research all of the source material used for ME3's ending.  To claim artistic integrity it should be your own complete work-games are derivative and the ending of ME3 is particularly so.  And stories do have to have internal integrity-endings must fit with internal lore and promises that exist within. This view of artistic integrity as you see it says BW could have shown Shepard at the citadel surrounded by killer clowns who said this was all a joke as long as they mentioned reapers, war, the crucible, and Earth or some such.  It wouldn't have to follow any themes or fit with the plot.  It's their vision and you can either like it or just move on.  The point is that's a very destructive view of things.  If you don't like something that you've bought, you can take it back, remain silent and speak with your money-that says nothing because they don't know what's wrong.  Or you can speak up and try to be constructive where possible and make suggestions.

I guarantee you if you send a publisher your manuscript and they say they like everything and would buy it if the ending was better, you would change the ending.  If you wouldn't then you are writing for an audience of one.  Artistic integrity is not bankable.  And companies do need to pay attention to their customers.  They are the canaries in the coal mine.

Even Leonardo da Vinci had to eat and he often created things as commissioned works under benefactors with specific instructions as to what was wanted.

Oh and on King Lear-there's actually 3 different versions of the ending.


Oh the editorial process is one thing. But catering to wishes of a segment of a fanbase of already released material is another. There are very, very vocal fans of the Harry Potter series who think that J.K. Rowling destroyed the series because she dared to not pair Harry and Hermoine in the end. These fans are a minority, but they are very vocal, have fanclubs dedicated to their ship. Some of the points they make are valid, others are ludicrous. But Rowling's not changing that ending, no matter how hard they complain. If she changed the ending, people wouldn't HAVE to buy the new copies of the book. But fans of the series would be rightfully upset.  I mean wouldn't you be if a story you loved suddenly had its ending changed to something you didn't like, just because a vocal group of fans wanted it changed?

I'm telling you there's not a balance to be had. But there are always going to be detractors to a work. Nothing is loved universally. And sometimes opinions over things change over time. What's contraversial now could easily be seen as genius later. Besides, you'd have to show me proof that Bioware needed to compromise its artistic integrity and sell out for this new ending. As I've said, there are plenty of vocal minorites out there. Doesn't mean it's profitable or wise to appease them. If it was, then I'm guessing Bioware would have, especially since they released the EC.

You can talk about how the story doesn't fit. Here's the thing though; the stories fit in the narrative Bioware established. It may not have fit the narrative as you understood it but it didn't come out of left field. I walked into ME3 expecting to either be able to destroy the Reapers or have an option to become the dominant mind of a human reaper, I.E. the Harbinger/Sovereign type. Now, I wouldn't have taken the option, but I expected it. The control option turned out to be a more benevolent version of this in a lot of ways, with Shepard becoming even more powerful. I still won't take it but it's not THAT different from what I imagined based on the way the choices shaped up in the prior two games. The only ending which I didn't see any hint of was Synthesis. The other two have always been there, underlying.

And before anyone says the Catalyst doesn't fit the narrative, it isn't anything more than a glorified info dump. It exists to tell you choices and background if their effects, nothing more. It's an "evil" Vigil at worst.

You are asking them to change things, and fundamentally alter the narrative of their already published story. A story that people have paid for an enjoyed as is and with the EC. This goes beyond saying what worked and what didn't for future games. You are, of course, entitled to do as you please in that regard, but others are then entitled to question and disagree with you on it.

Lastly, yeah, when I first beat ME3, I was in shock. I didn't like the endings. But after discussing them with my friend and going over the different ways to approach the choice, I developed a new appreciation of it. The EC then improved on them by clarifying further. Six months later, I still go back and forth on what I feel most comfortable as the final choice. I haven't had too many games where I still wonder what's right after more than a playthrough. So I don't want that negated. I like that ME3 asks a tough question; and I don't want that question changed. It makes the answer you arrive at more rewarding.

#4464
Netsfn1427

Netsfn1427
  • Members
  • 184 messages

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

That is definitely true…

Please see Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage.  Excellent video by MrBtongue.

This makes me think of Dragon Age2 Fiction and Applicability (and Tolkein). Bioware took real life situations, events and problems in todays society and molded them into a form where they would be disconnected from the actual events.  They built their own back stories to create the event within the game and confronted you with tough decisions for these events throughout the game.  After really analyzing the game and stepping back to take a look I was kind of shocked of the decisions I made in the game when comparing it to the actual event they molded it from in real life. Obviously circumstances are different but I thought that was very interesting… for all the things they struck out on with that game they absolutely nailed that part.

I would agree that’s what Bioware was aiming for with this ending. I just think it lacks the essence of epic.


Couldn't agree more about DA2. I have trouble replaying it because the repeated dungeons grate on me. But the story, choices and the characters were tops for a Bioware game at the time (though I think ME3 surpassed it) and far superior to the original in that regard.

I do think they were going for something like that with the ending. But we all expected a massive firefight with tons of explosions, dying reapers and such. So it did feel like a bit of a let-down. The EC helped though, especially with Destroy. I feel a real sense of accomplishment and pride when I see the Asari celebrating after the Reapers die, something that I didn't have before with the original versions. And Hackett's narration adds to that as well.

#4465
Ozida

Ozida
  • Members
  • 833 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...

 I like that ME3 asks a tough question; and I don't want that question changed. It makes the answer you arrive at more rewarding.

Ok, two points:

1. Which "tough" questions are we talking about? Should we stop the Reapers? Should we control them? Should we follow their lead? I am sorry, but for many players those questions were already decided before ME3 even came out.

Or are we talking about "tough choice" of side effects of stopping Reapers? Because, that's really all it is in the end. There are no philosophical debates except for: “Should I kill geths?”/ “Should I erase everyone’s DNA?”/ and “Should I become a super-God”? See how nowhere there is a questions of “Should I stop the
Reapers?”.  I honestly think that sometimes people overrate endings just to show that they get the "depth" and "artisitc integrity". :mellow:

2. "Rewarding answers". Once again, which answers are you talking about? As I stated few times already, we don't even get any idea of negative impact of endings. In all three endings all we see is just pretty pictures! I personally felt no guilt for killing Geths, because I didn't see how it happened. Same for not curing genophage, for example.

So, sorry, but I cannot pretend to see some great value in endings, because, I believe, it doesn't exist. "But the emperor has no clothes!", as they say. <_<

Modifié par Ozida, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:48 .


#4466
Lunch Box1912

Lunch Box1912
  • Members
  • 3 159 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...


Lastly, yeah, when I first beat ME3, I was in shock. I didn't like the endings. But after discussing them with my friend and going over the different ways to approach the choice, I developed a new appreciation of it. The EC then improved on them by clarifying further. Six months later, I still go back and forth on what I feel most comfortable as the final choice. I haven't had too many games where I still wonder what's right after more than a playthrough. So I don't want that negated. I like that ME3 asks a tough question; and I don't want that question changed. It makes the answer you arrive at more rewarding.



I hear what you’re saying … I don’t want the tough question changed either. I just wish they went about presenting it differently.  I felt like they ran out of development time so they threw what they had together and made the best of it and stood by it. The Idea is right but it is missing the bang to make it over the top.

Epic? it’s my word of the day

#4467
Lunch Box1912

Lunch Box1912
  • Members
  • 3 159 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

That is definitely true…

Please see Tasteful, Understated Nerdrage.  Excellent video by MrBtongue.

This makes me think of Dragon Age2 Fiction and Applicability (and Tolkein). Bioware took real life situations, events and problems in todays society and molded them into a form where they would be disconnected from the actual events.  They built their own back stories to create the event within the game and confronted you with tough decisions for these events throughout the game.  After really analyzing the game and stepping back to take a look I was kind of shocked of the decisions I made in the game when comparing it to the actual event they molded it from in real life. Obviously circumstances are different but I thought that was very interesting… for all the things they struck out on with that game they absolutely nailed that part.

I would agree that’s what Bioware was aiming for with this ending. I just think it lacks the essence of epic.


Couldn't agree more about DA2. I have trouble replaying it because the repeated dungeons grate on me. But the story, choices and the characters were tops for a Bioware game at the time (though I think ME3 surpassed it) and far superior to the original in that regard.

I do think they were going for something like that with the ending. But we all expected a massive firefight with tons of explosions, dying reapers and such. So it did feel like a bit of a let-down. The EC helped though, especially with Destroy. I feel a real sense of accomplishment and pride when I see the Asari celebrating after the Reapers die, something that I didn't have before with the original versions. And Hackett's narration adds to that as well.


Haha I need to refresh my browser sooner I just wrote basically the same thing.Posted Image

#4468
N7 Lisbeth

N7 Lisbeth
  • Members
  • 670 messages
What do you think editors do for authors, well before those books are published?

They tell them to change things.

Mass Effect 3 didn't have this filter. The people in charge were the ones writing it and nobody edited it. They thought it'd be brilliant way to keep people talking about it, but, erm, I don't think they fully realised just how upset people would be after giving them an intentionally upsetting ending. (They're pretty much on record for this.)

So yes, we have every right to ask for a change. We can't demand one, per se, but we can talk with our purchases and pretty much force them to do so. After all, a game or DLC that nobody buys (realistically, few people -- someone will always buy it) isn't good for business (because a few people don't pay the bills).

They need us, and we need them. Entertainment has always been a symbiotic relationship. They have to treat us right, and up until now, they haven't. We have every reason to make ourselves heard on the matter, just do it without name-calling, or threats, or anything that otherwise violences the Code of Conduct for the forum. Other than that, anything goes.

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:57 .


#4469
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

Oh the editorial process is one thing. But catering to wishes of a segment of a fanbase of already released material is another. There are very, very vocal fans of the Harry Potter series who think that J.K. Rowling destroyed the series because she dared to not pair Harry and Hermoine in the end. These fans are a minority, but they are very vocal, have fanclubs dedicated to their ship. Some of the points they make are valid, others are ludicrous. But Rowling's not changing that ending, no matter how hard they complain. If she changed the ending, people wouldn't HAVE to buy the new copies of the book. But fans of the series would be rightfully upset. I mean wouldn't you be if a story you loved suddenly had its ending changed to something you didn't like, just because a vocal group of fans wanted it changed?

In that case, why not create another solution, such as a post-ending DLC that allows you to undo the consequences of, say, Destroy? Or the aforementioned IT thing?

#4470
N7 Lisbeth

N7 Lisbeth
  • Members
  • 670 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...

There are very, very vocal fans of the Harry Potter series who think that J.K. Rowling destroyed the series because she dared to not pair Harry and Hermoine in the end. These fans are a minority, but they are very vocal, have fanclubs dedicated to their ship.


The difference here is we are not a minority. As proven by Bioware's own surveys, multiple times (before and after Extended Cut), we (those unhappy with the ending choices) are in fact the majority.

#4471
AresKeith

AresKeith
  • Members
  • 34 128 messages

Xilizhra wrote...


Oh the editorial process is one thing. But catering to wishes of a segment of a fanbase of already released material is another. There are very, very vocal fans of the Harry Potter series who think that J.K. Rowling destroyed the series because she dared to not pair Harry and Hermoine in the end. These fans are a minority, but they are very vocal, have fanclubs dedicated to their ship. Some of the points they make are valid, others are ludicrous. But Rowling's not changing that ending, no matter how hard they complain. If she changed the ending, people wouldn't HAVE to buy the new copies of the book. But fans of the series would be rightfully upset. I mean wouldn't you be if a story you loved suddenly had its ending changed to something you didn't like, just because a vocal group of fans wanted it changed?

In that case, why not create another solution, such as a post-ending DLC that allows you to undo the consequences of, say, Destroy? Or the aforementioned IT thing?


I still think more can be added to the endings, because the SC that the Crucible is largely intacted in the EC which means its either not complete or it got damaged

#4472
MegaSovereign

MegaSovereign
  • Members
  • 10 794 messages

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

Netsfn1427 wrote...

There are very, very vocal fans of the Harry Potter series who think that J.K. Rowling destroyed the series because she dared to not pair Harry and Hermoine in the end. These fans are a minority, but they are very vocal, have fanclubs dedicated to their ship.


The difference here is we are not a minority. As proven by Bioware's own surveys, multiple times (before and after Extended Cut), we (those unhappy with the ending choices) are in fact the majority.


Please provide me a link to a survey showing that most people are unhappy with the endings post-Extended Cut.

#4473
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 818 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The problem I have with these stupid turdtastic endings is that all of them. Every single one of them go against everything I believe. In reality the only one that comes even remotely close is refuse.

The ending is the worst s*** f*** choices I've seen put together. What the hell were they thinking? We're still arguing about this six months later?

Synthesis? I'm taking away everyone's freedom of choice to achieve some sort of galactic bull**** peace-love between the reaper god, reaper, husk, synthetic, and organic by molecular molestation, not knowing if everyone is going to accept it, and I'm not going to be around to answer for it. Starbrat is going to be there to oversee the whole thing. Enjoy your new galactic order.

Control? Whoa! This one is heavy. Power. I get to have all the power in the galaxy except it's not me. It's the Starbrat with a new coding module added. I wonder how that's going to work out after 50,000 years?

Destroy? So I worked my ass off cured the genophage, made peace between the Quarians and the Geth, now I get to kill my allies, and destroy the galactic infrastructure, which, BTW we have absolutely no idea how to rebuild. And I get to have an implication of hope that Shepard might have survived, and that's all.

Refuse? I get to stand by my morals and just die, but I doom the galaxy.

How can anyone defend any of these endings? The only time destroy is palatable is if the Geth aren't there, otherwise it is indefensible.

The ending is like playing tic tac toe. There is never a winner. The only way to win is not to play. That is the game that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson gave us. Quit to dashboard is the win. Ctrl-Alt-Del is the win.

The ending is insane. You argue with insane things: TIM and Starbrat. You can at least convince TIM he's insane and he'll suicide. Starbrat? there's no way to convince him he's nuts, that his programming is faulty and that he was programmed by flawed stupid cuttlefish. There's no way to convince him that he's destroying what he was created to protect. There's no way to convince him that he IS the problem. Instead they have Shepard go brain dead and just give up.

Mass Effect 3 is a study in what not to do in video game story writing. The Intro really sucks. From Mars to Thessia is very good. Thessia to Priority Earth is mediocre. Priority Earth is bad. And the ending blows.

As for people who liked the endings... would they have preferred an ending where they could have seen their choices in action, where they could have actually role played their Shepard and had Shepard make a difference? where they could have had the super Suicide Mission and not necessarily ending with the boss fight from hell, but with something that really would have mattered? And had everything end with closure?

Or would they have rather had what we got originally? Or the polished turd we got with the EC with no closure?


Your choices shape the galaxy that follows. That's what the EC is for. Pre-EC that's a legit complaint. Post EC, not so much. As for the ending, your choices indirectly influence the options you have at the end with regards to the three choices. The war asset system is precisely so that no one game decision locks you out of the choices. it's the summation of all your choices and decisions across the three games. What's the alternative?  Tie the endings to a singular earlier choice? Imagine if you were required to not cure the Genophage to get the best ending? You think there wouldn't have been complaints about that strategy? 

I've given a defense of these endings. They are forcing you to decide what's most important to you. You have morals, but what are the ones you value most. You want an ending where you don't have to make that choice. 

Anyone can choose to save both the Quarians and the Geth. That's not a moralistic choice. That's just doing what is required off a checklist. Anyone can get Miranda and Jack to stand down. That's not a moralistic choice. That's just making sure you have enough paragon/renegade points to meet the check. The endings of ME3 actually demand you decide what's most important to you. 

It isn't about clear-cut, easily defined right and wrong. It's about your own personal tastes and what you can live with. Yeah it's not an easy decision. If it was an easy decision, it wouldn't be an interesting one. 


I'm going to go you one further. I don't think they should give the player a running total of the paragon/renegade points. These points shouldn't be revealed until after the end of the game. Conversation choices? Call them something different. Maybe "flatter", "persuade", "persuade forcefully", "sarcastic", "intimidate", "be a complete ass". And on the para and ren interrupts, just make them a generic "interrupt". Changes things a bit.

Let the player actually role play for a change and not point play and metagame. Everyone metagames this. No one actually role plays. Not everyone can get Jack and Miranda to stand down. Not everyone can actually get Tali and Legion to come to an arrangement. It's not that simple. It shouldn't be that simple. Not anyone can choose to save both the Quarians and the Geth without metagaming.

The problem with RPGs is that the real RPG only works on the first playthrough without the walkthrough. After that or once you know the formula, it's a checklist anyway. At least without knowing what your percentage of para/ren is makes it a little more difficult

My choices do not exist in the dialogue presented on the Citadel. Shepard turns into a ****ing retard. That is not my Shepard up there. That is a broken stupid putz. My Shepard would have been point/counterpointing that insane little ****er to her last breath.

You can defend that ending all you want, but it has no defense. I value freedom. We have paid the price for freedom in blood. Did you not look around you in the ****ing game? What the hell were you shooting? Those were former people! And they were slaughtering us by the billions! And I have to make a choice? Yet another sacrifice for freedom because Mac Walters doesn't feel we sacrificed enough? We have to do this just to end the ****ing game? **** him and the horse he rode in on.

The EC changed nothing, my friend. It added a sugar coating to cover up the flaws, nothing more, and there are a ton of flaws remaining. With refusal at least I get to see a glimpse of Shepard, but it's for nothing because they decided "it's red, green, or blue, or it's nothing for you."

So to have an ending I can live with I have to play a ton of multi-player and on Rannoch... "Sorry Legion, I've seen the ending, and I'm letting the Quarians slaughter your people while they're as dumb as varren so I can have one ending I can live with. Tali, kill him."

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 19 septembre 2012 - 11:26 .


#4474
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh the editorial process is one thing. But catering to wishes of a segment of a fanbase of already released material is another. There are very, very vocal fans of the Harry Potter series who think that J.K. Rowling destroyed the series because she dared to not pair Harry and Hermoine in the end. These fans are a minority, but they are very vocal, have fanclubs dedicated to their ship. Some of the points they make are valid, others are ludicrous. But Rowling's not changing that ending, no matter how hard they complain. If she changed the ending, people wouldn't HAVE to buy the new copies of the book. But fans of the series would be rightfully upset. I mean wouldn't you be if a story you loved suddenly had its ending changed to something you didn't like, just because a vocal group of fans wanted it changed?

In that case, why not create another solution, such as a post-ending DLC that allows you to undo the consequences of, say, Destroy? Or the aforementioned IT thing?


And with one Harry Potter movie there were 2 versions made.  Producers wanted Harry Potter killed off.  Fans went ballistic.  Harry Potter lives.

#4475
CronoDragoon

CronoDragoon
  • Members
  • 10 413 messages

Netsfn1427 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

by like I posted earlier to you, If your so against the suggestion of a DLC that you don't have to buy, how would you feel if they did this through pre-ending DLCs which you can still avoid the ending that were suggesting?


It would still be having to go out of my way to "fail" at the game, since I know it's possible. It's why I look up on Youtube the ME3 characters that are present if your ME2 characters die. I just can't bring myself to deliberately fail in the Suicide Mission order to achieve a different outcome. I can switch up Paragon/Renegade, but I can't kill Wrex just to kill him. 

Also, as an aspiring writer, it also bothers me a bit with the desire to see things changed. The EC was different because the fundamental point of the difficult decision remains. In fact by clarifying the endings you crystalize the choices even more. The writers had an intention and a story they wished to tell. They should not have to change it based on what some people think. Otherwise it loses impact. Can you imagine if someone told Shakespeare he had to change Romeo and Juliet because it ended on a down note? Or Hamlet's ending wasn't uplifting? (and I say that, hating Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet, but acknowledging that they're classics)

I'm not saying ME is a modern classic that compares with that level if literature. But as much as people joke about artistic integrity, it exists. Otherwise "sell-out" wouldn't be an insult. 


It exists selectively, at best. Very few writers can write whatever they want without the input of editors, friends, fans, what have you.

As someone who also writes, it wouldn't bother me in the least if they took out the geth/EDI destruction, because it is quite obviously bad writing the way it is currently instituted. If they had artistic integrity, they would not have put in this arbitrary consequence for choosing Destroy that is so disconnected from the rest of the narrative. They didn't even bother to give an in-game reason for it. It happens just because, and that means it happens to make the ending less desirable to try and balance it with the other endings. That's amateur high school quality writing.

No, writers should not always have to conform. But I find it odd to believe, on principle, that the original vision of the writer is always the best one for that story. There are times when the writer himself is precisely the worst person to judge his own work.