6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Bierwichtel]

to come back to the original purpose of this thread:

BW would have to listen to a minority, a select minority at that... those who actually have an idea what they want... the resulting problem again is, that what said minority would want is probably not what would satisfy the majority, which would result in a decline in sales (even though this can not be reliably predicted anyway...)

I do agree that it would be the right move from BW to at least acknowledge our ideas/pleas... to at least show us that they care about our opinions, that they still care about us as fans...

EDIT:
sorry, Darth hadn't seen you had already posted something to get this thread back on track... I apologise.

Modifié par Bierwichtel, 21 septembre 2012 - 10:47 .

[AresKeith]

Bierwichtel wrote...

to come back to the original purpose of this thread:

BW would have to listen to a minority, a select minority at that... those who actually have an idea what they want... the resulting problem again is, that what said minority would want is probably not what would satisfy the majority, which would result in a decline in sales (even though this can not be reliably predicted anyway...)

I do agree that it would be the right move from BW to at least acknowledge our ideas/pleas... to at least show us that they care about our opinions, that they still care about us as fans...

EDIT:
sorry, Darth hadn't seen you had already posted something to get this thread back on track... I apologise.

but if they do this through there pre-ending DLCs and the people who are satisfied with the endings wouldn't have to pick it, they could still have the ending that they liked

[N7 Lisbeth]

Bierwichtel wrote...

see above...

you can't satisfy everyone, to try is pointless...

BW wanted to appease too many people at once...

I strongly disagree. I find the excuse "we'd have to listen to a minority to figure out what EVERYONE wants" is just as flawed circular logic as the Catalyst. It's a cop-out excuse of the worst kind.

They know damned well what's wrong with the ending, and so do you. There are very broad, very satisfying changes they could utilise to fix things. It's not asking for much, it certainly wouldn't cost much to produce, and they're already calling in voice actors to work on the Omega DLC. Those voice actors get paid for a certain number of lines (150 if memory serves). They could have easily done the projects concurrently if they chose to.

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:23 .

[Code_R]

They know damned well what's wrong with the ending, and so do you. There are very broad, very satisfying changes they could utilise to fix things. It's not asking for much, it certainly wouldn't cost much to produce, and they're already calling in voice actors to work on the Omega DLC. Those voice actors get paid for a certain number of lines (150 if memory serves). They could have easily done the projects concurrently if they chose to.

It's still fun to see that people think this is a minority who didn't like how things turned out. Based on what? Sales figures? I think it's plainly obvious that those don't mean anything when people needed to buy the game to be dissapointed, and the media played it down with highly positive reviews. At this stage Bioware is clearly more interested in ignoring the thousands of "X reacts to ending" videos, the countless threads complaining here, all the image macros; and focusing on just selling more DLC which will probably cost the same as fixing the problems, but wouldn't generate the same kind of revenue since it would have to be a free patch....

Modifié par Code_R, 21 septembre 2012 - 11:30 .

[Kel Riever]

Its a minority because...you were told it was by BioWare!

Who would totally back that up with verifiable statistics!

[Bierwichtel]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

Bierwichtel wrote...

see above...

you can't satisfy everyone, to try is pointless...

BW wanted to appease too many people at once...

I strongly disagree. I find the excuse "we'd have to listen to a minority to figure out what EVERYONE wants" is just as flawed circular logic as the Catalyst. It's a cop-out excuse of the worst kind.

They know damned well what's wrong with the ending, and so do you. There are very broad, very satisfying changes they could utilise to fix things. It's not asking for much, it certainly wouldn't cost much to produce, and they're already calling in voice actors to work on the Omega DLC. Those voice actors get paid for a certain number of lines (150 if memory serves). They could have easily done the projects concurrently if they chose to.

these lines are actually just the culmination of a rather lenghty "lecture" on the feasibility of pleasing customers... believe me, I do know what's wrong with every single Mass Effect Game (from the incorrect use of military "behaviour and jargon" up to and including the highly flawed ending... (even have a detailed list in my head on what could be done better, would just start another argument, so not going to go into this list... one example that alway annoyed me in the first game: the inventory system needed drag-and-drop categories on what to keep, what to recycle, etc. or just plain categories, weaopons, mods, armour... something like that...)


IF they chose to, yes... and yes it would not be too much to ask for, question is, who do they listen to?

those who kiss their feet and will buy everything Mass Effect or those who will most likely not be pleased by whatever they do...?

don't get me wrong I really, really like the Mass Effect games despite their (at times obvious) flaws...

[Bierwichtel]

the term minority I only used to be able to somewhat quantify the amount people who actually know what they want/don't want...

it was never about pleasing only a minority...

I guess threads as long as these don't get read in their entirety... not that I'm complaining, mind...

[Bierwichtel]

and you can only ever ask and/or please a minority...

6.5 billion people on this planet... just saying...

I should really go to bed, my thought processes are decaying and getting rather simplified... I humbly apologise for that

"Fire bad, tree pretty."

Modifié par Bierwichtel, 22 septembre 2012 - 12:01 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Bierwichtel wrote...

to come back to the original purpose of this thread:

BW would have to listen to a minority, a select minority at that... those who actually have an idea what they want... the resulting problem again is, that what said minority would want is probably not what would satisfy the majority, which would result in a decline in sales (even though this can not be reliably predicted anyway...)

I do agree that it would be the right move from BW to at least acknowledge our ideas/pleas... to at least show us that they care about our opinions, that they still care about us as fans...

EDIT:
sorry, Darth hadn't seen you had already posted something to get this thread back on track... I apologise.

See this is the beauty of Puzzle Theory: BioWare gets to have their cake (do all their planned pre-ending DLC) and we get to have a modified ending that is non-Catalyst generated.

Everyone who is heavily invested in Control, Synthesis, and Destroy loses (note that I am heavily invested in destroy as I believe it is the only one where Shepard is not indoctrinated).

The only way the new ending gets unlocked is when a person has purchased all of the SP DLC for ME3. It could be a new YELLOW choice at the end of the choice descriptions off to the left, and this launches the new ending and we get to see the real Shepard again. One can only hope.

Epilogue: Shepard lived and retired with his/her LI on Illium (Liara), Rannoch (Tali), Earth or Colony world (humans), Palaven (Garrus), or is a freelance contractor (no LI).

See I think even the majority (destroy enders) hated that ending. I think even the Control people hated that ending and would have chosen something better if it meant they could see the real Shepard again. And the same with Synthesis. I think the small number remaining that would hold onto the old endings would be so minimal it would be well worth the risk.

And they could still keep with their vision of ending Shepard's story arc at the end of the game.

Everyone wins. I just don't believe in the no-win scenario.

[Bierwichtel]

and now to persuade Casey...

the quote myself:

would be awe and then some...

Jane Shepard-T'Soni just lounging
on the patio (I know, I know Inta'sei's atmosphere does not really lend
itself well to this, but I can dream) Liara Shepard-T'Soni sitting
between her legs, enjoying her ministration, their four, little, blue
children being all ick-ed out, as they kiss...

Ashley and
Samantha sitting arm in arm on the patio-stairs... being amused by the
childrens' antics, kissing as well to ick them out even more (being the
evil aunties and all)

a little Turian boy, followed by a little
Quarian girl, running around the corner of the house laughing their
little heads off, being chased by a geth... (Tali and Garrus needed some
time off, so Shepard, Liara, Ash and Sam volunteered to baby-sit...)

while I'm dreaming: I want a pony... (to paraphrase Susi Derkins...)

Modifié par Bierwichtel, 22 septembre 2012 - 12:07 .

[Archonsg]

Time here is really the issue. You can only delay so long before customers become fed up of waiting or worse, become apathetic towards the product, especially if it is an entertainment product such as a game.

At which point returns for launching any corrective initiatives falls rapidly past profitable or even justifiable incentive and the product's owner just write off any projected loss that may occur.

Mass Effect 3, I think, has past that line.
They took a while, longer than expected for the release of EC, and perhaps that was intentional, but had there been any major change, it would have been, should have been done so with the EC. That they chose not to do so and have been consistently quiet and not responding to and requests for more changes bodes ill for any hope of any further changes.

Do I want to see a better ending? Of course I do. But at this point, I an resigned to the fact that ME3 will be left to the mercies of time, and time can only tell if fans will forget about all this and lap up the next installment regardless as is very likely the assumed and suggested scenario by marketing. Not that I fault them, we gamers after all are generally a fickle lot.

[Essalor]

I don't think that people who are dissatisfied with the endings are in minority. Most are simply not vocal enough or don't care much. Some people don't even use forums. In this case only the most dissatisfied (like me) and only the most dedicated fans of the franchize are left with opposite opinions and no middle ground.

I doubt that anyone actually LOVES the endings. Some may be okay with them, but who looks forwards to them?

(edit) just to add the most popular topics on these forums are this (188 pages) and IT (a gazillion pages) and whether you believe or not in IT, this theory spawned from the fact that the endings taken at face value suck and people are in denial. So yeah, we;re in minority! (sarcasm)

Modifié par Essalor, 22 septembre 2012 - 12:31 .

[AresKeith]

Essalor wrote...

I don't think that people who are dissatisfied with the endings are in minority. Most are simply not vocal enough or don't care much. Some people don't even use forums. In this case only the most dissatisfied (like me) and only the most dedicated fans of the franchize are left with opposite opinions and no middle ground.

I doubt that anyone actually LOVES the endings. Some may be okay with them, but who looks forwards to them?

(edit) just to add the most popular topics on these forums are this (188 pages) and IT (a gazillion pages) and whether you believe or not in IT, this theory spawned from the fact that the endings taken at face value suck and people are in denial. So yeah, we;re in minority! (sarcasm)

I could name a few that claims they love the endings

[darthoptimus003]

as long as people are still upset with the ending we still have a shot at fixing this mess so lets hope it doesnt fall on deaf ears

[BearlyHere]

Essalor wrote...

I don't think that people who are dissatisfied with the endings are in minority. Most are simply not vocal enough or don't care much. Some people don't even use forums. In this case only the most dissatisfied (like me) and only the most dedicated fans of the franchize are left with opposite opinions and no middle ground.

I doubt that anyone actually LOVES the endings. Some may be okay with them, but who looks forwards to them?

(edit) just to add the most popular topics on these forums are this (188 pages) and IT (a gazillion pages) and whether you believe or not in IT, this theory spawned from the fact that the endings taken at face value suck and people are in denial. So yeah, we;re in minority! (sarcasm)

There are a good many who were so upset at the ending that they traded the game in while they could still get something for it. Check your local game store or Craig's List and see how many used copies are available. I'm sure Bioware tracks who logs in, and must know how many just stopped playing after the first time.

I don't know if even fixing the ending would get those players back. What's the saying, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.  But for those of us who hang around hoping, admiting the ending needs further closure would go far towards repairing the damage done. Otherwise, they're admitting they don't care about anything but sales, and that attitude is going to bite them when the next non-fix dlc or the next game rolls out.

[Conniving_Eagle]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

Bierwichtel wrote...

see above...

you can't satisfy everyone, to try is pointless...

BW wanted to appease too many people at once...

I strongly disagree. I find the excuse "we'd have to listen to a minority to figure out what EVERYONE wants" is just as flawed circular logic as the Catalyst. It's a cop-out excuse of the worst kind.

They know damned well what's wrong with the ending, and so do you. There are very broad, very satisfying changes they could utilise to fix things. It's not asking for much, it certainly wouldn't cost much to produce, and they're already calling in voice actors to work on the Omega DLC. Those voice actors get paid for a certain number of lines (150 if memory serves). They could have easily done the projects concurrently if they chose to.

"The Vocal Minority"

[KevShep]

One Last Plea - Do the Right Thing

They will not! plan and simple!

Bioware is trying to get out of a deep hole by digging down more and more!

[Xellith]

plain*

But yeah I figure they think if they dig down deep enough they will surface in Antarctica or something. Which either way you look at it - you are still in a whole lot of trouble.

[Ozida]

I... just listened... the Suicide Mission OST... the orchestra version.
God dammit, BioWare, fix the endings so I can go back to the game I used to love and adore! Ever saw a krogan on his knees?

[Lunch Box1912]

The only reason I joined this forum was to find out what the heck was going on after running through the ending twice. Most gamers don't take the time to find out why a game trilogy falls off a cliff in the last five minutes of the game, most never played ME1 or ME2. Sure we're the minority of the gamer base as a whole but I'd have to say we are your more devoted fan base. So because more casual gamers say they are satisfied with the ending you completey disregaurd what your actual fans say?

[Lunch Box1912]

If I didn't care I wouldn't be here

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

While I would love more ending DLC, it is not accurate to say it wouldn't affect people who liked the post-EC endings, because dev time for an ending DLC is dev time not spent on another unique DLC.

Well, that's part of why I am not actually trying to substitute my knowledge of all things for BW's.  I'm asking them and everyone to compromise.  If those that love the endings they have can put aside a bit of what would bother them, and Bioware and other fans could put aside what would bother them about all of it, we might actually all come to some measure of satisfaction for the most people possible.

We have no idea how good or how bad other unique DLC is selling.  And I'll say it again, even review sites that stood firmly behind BW over the endings, and piled on fans, did not LOVE Leviathan.  If they don't, you can just imagine that some of the shine has come off the series.  Reviewers said some good things but they also said some disturbing things if you hope for more DLC.  Game devs cannot afford to bleed customers-they need all they can get.  Consider that a lot of people now are really rather satisfied playing some games on mobile devices.  And, as time goes on there will be les and less interest in any DLC.  There are fans ready and waiting for some reason to come back and to want to give BW their money.

You also have to look at the reality of the future.  New consoles are on the horizon and developing for them will require more money be spent.  BW already laid out cash to develop for the WiiU.  Content such as I and many others are suggesting might just help make all that other unique DLC more possible-more fans might also be here ready to buy it.

[3DandBeyond]

BearlyHere wrote...

Essalor wrote...

I don't think that people who are dissatisfied with the endings are in minority. Most are simply not vocal enough or don't care much. Some people don't even use forums. In this case only the most dissatisfied (like me) and only the most dedicated fans of the franchize are left with opposite opinions and no middle ground.

I doubt that anyone actually LOVES the endings. Some may be okay with them, but who looks forwards to them?

(edit) just to add the most popular topics on these forums are this (188 pages) and IT (a gazillion pages) and whether you believe or not in IT, this theory spawned from the fact that the endings taken at face value suck and people are in denial. So yeah, we;re in minority! (sarcasm)

There are a good many who were so upset at the ending that they traded the game in while they could still get something for it. Check your local game store or Craig's List and see how many used copies are available. I'm sure Bioware tracks who logs in, and must know how many just stopped playing after the first time.

I don't know if even fixing the ending would get those players back. What's the saying, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.  But for those of us who hang around hoping, admiting the ending needs further closure would go far towards repairing the damage done. Otherwise, they're admitting they don't care about anything but sales, and that attitude is going to bite them when the next non-fix dlc or the next game rolls out.

I think that actually more people than we know would come back because they did love these games.  No, they're not happy with how this all was handled, but I do think that for many there'd be that interest.  Not that they'd be going against principles they stated, but it is human nature.  It is.  How many times have you drawn a line in the sand and crossed it?  We all do because when it comes right down to it, no matter how it comes about, if you finally get someone to listen to you and to admit one small thing you've said is true, you can't help it.  I'm just a silly older woman, but I've seen this all the time.  The anger a lot of people feel is because of how much they liked this thing.

Ever known someone you just couldn't stand?  And that really seemed to dislike you?  A person that was always causing you trouble?  Well, I have seen this happen so many times.  "I'm never talking to that so and so ever again.  She's so nasty and mean to me and blah blah blah.  Two days later, BFFs.  And some divorced people just hate each other and one day get remarried.  It's human nature to change one's mind.

Now this is much different.  It is a product.  However, I've seen people swear on a stack of travel brochures that they would never buy another Apple product because the freaking iPhone did this or that and blah blah blah.  Or the iPad or the iToilet or whatever.  And, I'm pretty sure that some people who just got the iPhone 5 were some of those people.  I remember a lot of dislike for the original iPhone because of black screens, lack of features, reduced cost after they paid a premium, no GPS, no video, no voice recorder.  I had one-I know what people said.  But, the iPhone is one of the most successful products ever made. 

People want to like things they've liked and they do also want to be right and companies can overcome mistakes and fan unrest-if they believe that olive branches matter.  So, there's every possibility that some people who were really upset might come back, too.  There are a lot of people just killing time playing MP.  And yeah, there are a lot of used copies out there gathering dust.  But, there are also a lot of digital downloads on PCs that people might still be waiting to have one chance to feel like playing again.

[Essalor]

I can say without any sarcasm that I loved ME3. I did. And I'm sure some people replay it because it's a good game. Forget less dialogue options or on-rails story, it all didn't matter. Until the end.

The last 5 minutes are bad because the more you loved the game, the more you got crushed. It is after such a downfall that you started scrutinizing every minute thing that was wrong with the game.

And it's not like the vocal minority wants something impossible. Giving us a happier/positive refuse ending will probably end most complaints and restore faith in the company for a large majority. Removing Catalyst is almost impossible at this stage, but improving out choices: yes.

[Lunch Box1912]

I want an I-toilet... does it come 3000 flushe and siri?