6432 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

GarvakD wrote...

Deus Ex Machina would be a conventional victory.
I think both Xen and Gerrel would destroy btw.  

Actually in a real way that's true.  It's why the kid and choices are a DeM (the writers and some people think they lead to a win) but aren't a DeM.  They are sometimes said to be a Diabolus ex Machina because they are not there to help.

A true DeM would help and would lead to a win.  If the choices were all between how best to destroy the reapers-say you can choose explosion, implosion or having them bunga bunga each other to death, well they'd be a DeM.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 22 septembre 2012 - 03:54 .

[Isichar]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Isichar wrote...

@3DandBeyond

I really think Xen would be under control, not destroy.

Wouldn't Gerrel be a better example for destroy?

Maybe, my thought of Xen was that she didn't care about the Geth, didn't see them as being alive at all so their value was in their pieces and technology, not as living beings.  It wasn't so much about destroying them as it was about not seeing them as real living things.

Which is similar how TIM looked at most things, she sees them as a tool to be used, not just as a threat (She directly states she wants the geth to be under Qurian control again at one point in the story) destroy is much more like "this is a threat that needs to be ended now" sort of thing. Thats just how I view it though.

Modifié par Isichar, 22 septembre 2012 - 04:01 .

[N7 Lisbeth]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Don't get me wrong, I love the nightmares to a point.  It's just that kid.  He seemed contrived at the beginning and I just was annoyed with him and I felt no connection.  So, I couldn't help not liking him in the dreams, but I loved the dreams.  You see, I thought he was just a bad fit right along-he's in the vent and says something a kid wouldn't say (you can't help me) and doesn't say what a kid would say (am I gonna die, help me, I'm afraid) or just something authentic. 

Digression for conversation's sake! I like the way you think.

Realistic, I guess, depends on one's experiences. You expect something, and if not met, then you question it unless you're willing to take it at face value. Have you run into real street urchins before? Or kids on the run? Or emotionally traumatised kids? They don't trust people, especially adults. "You can't help me" is pretty much textbook quoting from any kid with an issue. It comes from having seen too much, too fast. It seems so big to them they simply don't believe you can.

What he appears to be is like Mouse in ME2, a vent boy who has no one.  And so, in the flesh he seems more like some unreal vision Shepard is having rather than a real boy.  And he's the first person in the game Shepard sees and the last person Shepard sees.  Shepard sees him "alive" at first, sees him die in dreams and then see him as some corollary to a ghost at the end.

Mouse? Did you mean Newt? Hard not to think of Aliens at that moment, for me.

The only surreal part of the encounter with the kid, for me, was when we were trying to persuade him out of the vent and he disappeared suddenly without a noise. Because the camera was deliberately turned for that sake, because we were talking with Anderson, I let it go. Can't argue with something they're forcing you not to see. You really were distracted, and there's no sense in reading too much into it. This turns out to be practical, because there really isn't anything to support the not-real theory. (IT people just make stuff up, too much so that it stretches my disbelief farther than a boy that slipped away quietly while we were distracted.)

So, I think to go with the thought here, the kid never does exist.  He is a pure fabrication of Shepard's mind.  No one sees him or helps him at the beginning.  And it goes along with the idea of Mouse.  As Thane says, kids like him are the ignored.  That kid is something Shepard is ignoring.  At the end, Shepard is ignoring maybe the real threat and the kid represents the threat.  Shepard loses track of just who s/he is talking to if Shepard makes a choice.  The kid turns Shepard into an idiot, as if it's believable that this catalyst would fool Shepard by being in the likeness of a kid, the kid in Shepard's head.  If you go even further, since that makes no sense that Shepard would be fooled and if you think the kid was never real, then the whole thing with the kid might be Shepard trying to fool him/herself.

Or it could just be weighing heavily on Shepard and the Catalyst takes the image that not only is at the forefront of their thoughts, but condusive in donning to achieve their goal. The use of it was manipulative, the only question is was it chosen to utilise that by Casey (manipulating the player) or by the Catalyst (manipulating Shepard)? There's no wrong answer here because we simply don't know. I tend to go with a bit of both. No reason to limit it to only one.

Control is akin to indoctrination.  Synthesis is related to the genophage and an artificiality of life-that organic life can be artificial.  Destroy is akin to the Geth/Quarian conflict.  Shepard is replaying what has already happened-the choices are there for Shepard to decide which group of people was right.  Shepard had decided all of this.  So, if Shepard was more paragon and made paragon choices in relation to these items, the end choices are made to seem "better", with outcomes that are happier (ok, nutty happy IMO).  If Shepard was more renegade, the choices don't seem as good, with outcomes that are bleaker or more ominous. 

This is an interesting thematic element I overlooked --> your comparison of Synthesis to the Genophage. It's another story conflict/invalidation that we previously said no to, worked against, and yet we turn 180º at the end and essentially infect everyone with a Genophage.

I also think this could change the fates of TIM and Anderson--2 characters whose fates now are really somewhat meaningless and confused.  What if the ultimate ending was a true and total redemption for all?  TIM sees his mistakes and is alive.  Anderson is alive as well-not shot by Shepard.  And what if even a final ending totally pulls everything together and reinforces the themes of unity (Shepard regains full control of his/her thoughts, unifies within), redemption, diversity.  I'm just playing with all of this, but it's just to show that what we have now does not rule out anything.

I didn't mind the TIM/Anderson scene. Sure, it's hard not to see the huge misuse of TIM turning into Saren2.0 for absolutely no reason except er, I couldn't think of anything else to do. Koobismo (Marauder Shields) makes far better use of The Illusive Man in this regard, but in the end I don't mind. I chalk it up to indoctrination and no one planning ahead or intervening.

That, and I really enjoyed the final scene with Anderson and Shepard sitting there. It was touching and Keith David reminded me why I like him so much as an actor. It brought me full circle back to the beginning of the game, in Vancouver when he helped us out of the city. (And further sets the believable stage for the kid being at the forefront of Shepard's thoughts. Because it was at the forefront of mine.)

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 23 septembre 2012 - 01:24 .

[N7 Lisbeth]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Actually in a real way that's true.  It's why the kid and choices are a DeM (the writers and some people think they lead to a win) but aren't a DeM.  They are sometimes said to be a Diabolus ex Machina because they are not there to help.

A true DeM would help and would lead to a win.  If the choices were all between how best to destroy the reapers-say you can choose explosion, implosion or having them bunga bunga each other to death, well they'd be a DeM.

Oh, it's classic Deus Ex Machina. Reapers are conventionally unstoppable, there's technically no way to "destroy" them all even with the Crucible without friendly fire. (Original ending was very indicative of this -- mass relays, computers, ships, synthetics, the whole shebang.)

Suddenly, out of left field, meld synthetics and organics and win!

I do see what you're saying though -- yes, I'm with you on the theory that the Crucible was Harbinger's idea to manipulate Shepard and win. She had thwarted them at every turn, and the only way to stop the unstoppable force is by tricking them. Make her choose indoctrination of her own free will.

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 22 septembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[luciox]

Ozida wrote...

Not really an IT supporter, but I also agree that ending choices are not unique (and for that, I do not see them fight). As 3D stated above, Shepard has already made those choices, and so did the player. I am sure that if by the end of ME1 anyone would ask a player what he thinks of Synthesis, he would most likely say that it was a terrible idea.

Control is portrayed as a bad choice too, because it is TIM's dream. And if you follow his plans and leave Collector's base to TIM, everybody on your team says that it was a really bad idea. Not a Paragon choice, at least.

Destroy pretty much is an ultimate goal. By while Shepard is capable to solve other conflicts peacefully (keeping both geths and quarians alive, for example), in Destroy he is presented with ultimatum that doesn't really seem to have a good logical reason behind of it.

That is why I am always kind of surprised when people start talking about "touch choices" and want to hear this: which exact choices are we talking about?.. In my opinion, the hardest thing is to decide which one of 3 horrible things you are going to do with the galaxy, rather than how you are going to stop the Reapers.

I feel the same thing as you.
No body can force someone else to accept a change he or she believes is good. But Synthesis impose the choice. Shepard force the entire universe to be synthesis life form. At this point, I don't think he is any different than reapers, they are just same ingorance beasters. 

TIM loves the control idea, but how could I sure that it is Shepard who is controling reaper, not the other way round?

It took Shepard 2 games long to fix the relationship between quarians and geths. When it becomes better, suddenly Shepard decided to desorty geths. What's the point here? Does this mean all the effort Shepard put in become nothing? It will be much easier to finish geths in the first place. But again, this make Shepard nothing but reaper. Reapers do not try to understand organic life. To show a difference, Shepard should at least try to understand 
Synthesis life.

[pgcis136]

alleyd wrote...

As a bystander of the debate, I find the debate about factions of pro and anti enders tedious and absurd. ME3 was an rpg and offered replayability and choice. You weren't supposed to be as restricted to a single on rails storyline. You could be both in the same game,which was the major beauty of this series and the RPG format that Bioware used to champion.

There is a way that could easily replace the Catalyst using current gamplay and FMV, and even dialogue. It would need a conversation tree between Shepard and Catalyst,were Shepard can actually argue against the Catalyst's flawed logic and provoke a paradox that "kills" that Catalyst and the Reapers

I call this the Paradox theory and it has been used in the past with good effect (The Witcher 2 EC Quest Secrets of Loc Luinne had an event very similar to the Catalyst.). All the points of argument use existing game elements, such as FMV and story themes, and there should be a reward and closure for a character that made certain decisions. There simply isn't in the existing game.

Another cheap theory is the Trojan Horse, which essentially has the Crucible being forced to self destruct and this takes out the Citadel and the Catalyst. This could have a weighting applied through EMS to be more elegant but to simplify things it doesn't need them.

Both these options would take the Catalyst control signal and severly weaken the Reapers. Then we could have an extended Reaper War campaign where we actually get to fight actual Reapers across the Galaxy. This would be my perfect end of Mass Effect experience. Fighting on each races homeworlds (Starting at Earth and then each major race/sector) 

This would be fun, I could definity use more single player missions (not Leviathi tho.).
I would def......OH NOES!
Assuming direct control of this thread.
This cannot occur, the cycle must continue, no mater what paradoxes are inspired.
You have failed, we will find another way.
Releasing control of this thread.

[pgcis136]

Sorry 'bout that, Harbinger is SUCH a pain.
I'm realy begining to dislike those rEApers.

[3DandBeyond]

Isichar wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Isichar wrote...

@3DandBeyond

I really think Xen would be under control, not destroy.

Wouldn't Gerrel be a better example for destroy?

Maybe, my thought of Xen was that she didn't care about the Geth, didn't see them as being alive at all so their value was in their pieces and technology, not as living beings.  It wasn't so much about destroying them as it was about not seeing them as real living things.

Which is similar how TIM looked at most things, she sees them as a tool to be used, not just as a threat (She directly states she wants the geth to be under Qurian control again at one point in the story) destroy is much more like "this is a threat that needs to be ended now" sort of thing. Thats just how I view it though.

Oh, yes I understand what you're saying but I think we're talking about 2 different things.  I see destroy as devaluing any life that is not organic.  I see Xen as doing that as well.  She may want to control them but it's basically because she sees them as tools and not as lives.  That's kind of what they become in destroy-they are numerical estimations, tools, not lives.

[pgcis136]

alleyd wrote...

 

Epique Phael767 wrote...

alleyd wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Thats why ME3 fell under the category of being a rushed game and not having a narrative director watching over the lead writer

I look at things from a musical perspective ME3 was more like one of those albums were the artist thinks their every utterance is precious and it usually ends out being a stinker. Could list numerous examples but don't want to de-rail the thread

This best describes what I thought as well, like the writers let all the success in the previous two games go to their head.

John Lennon leaving the Beatles to pursue his "artistic vision" is an example of this. 

 

Oh yes that was one of the people I had in mind. I always found it 'funny' that Lennon's last public performance through a microphone was in a courtroom when he faced plagurism charges. (No offence intended I am an admirer of the Beatles musical heritage.)

I was thinking along the lines of Marc Bolan and Axl Rose. 

Just posting this for those not aware of the joke 

 Let’s Do Some Reaping Again (The Timewarp)

It’s astounding,  
All this Reaping 
A harvest oh so cold
If you listen closely
you can hear Harbinger 
He wants to assume control

{Harbinger}
I remember
the call of my master 
Time to reap the galaxy
The darkness would lighten
and a voice would be calling

{Reaper Chorus}
Let’s do some Reaping Again
Let’s do some Reaping Again

{Harbinger} So now we Reap to the Left
{Reaper Chorus}  And Then we Reap to the Right
{Harbinger}  With Gigantic Ships
{Reaper Chorus} And Death Rays For Eyes
{Star Child}   But Indoctrination really drives them insane

{Reaper Chorus} 
Let’s Do Some Reaping Again
Let’s Do Some Reaping Again

{Star Child}
It’s So Dreamy
To reap freely
Organics can’t hurt me, no not at all 
From another dimension
With Nihilistic intention
From the Citadel, I see all

{Harbinger} With a blast of my mind ray
{Star Child}  You’re indoctrinated
{Harbinger} And your mind will never be the same
{Star Child} spaced out, totally wasted
{Harbinger} Completely Indoctrinated

{Reaper Chorus} 
Let’s Do Some Reaping Again
Let's Do Some Reaping Again

{Cerberus Phantom}
I was sitting on Horizon just a having a think 
When this Illusive Guy gave me an Evil Wink 
He shook me up, he took me by surprise
He had a cigarette and some funny eyes
He stared at me and I felt a change
Time meant nothing, never would again

{Reaper Chorus}
Let’s do some Reaping again
Let's Do Some Reaping again

Harbinger} So now we Reap to the Left
{Reaper Chorus}  And Then we Reap to the Right
{Harbinger}  With Gigantic Ships
{Reaper Chorus} And Death Rays For Eyes
{Star Child}   But Indoctrination really drives them insane

{Reaper Chorus} 
Let’s Do Some Reaping Again
Let’s Do Some Reaping Again 

LOLOLOL, is this on youtube?

[3DandBeyond]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...



Mouse? Did you mean Newt? Hard not to think of Aliens at that moment, for me.

The only surreal part of the encounter with the kid, for me, was when we were trying to persuade him out of the vent and he disappeared suddenly without a noise. Because the camera was deliberately turned for that sake, because we were talking with Anderson, I let it go. Can't argue with something they're forcing you not to see. You really were distracted, and there's no sense in reading too much into it. This turns out to be practical, because there really isn't anything to support the not-real theory. (IT people just make stuff up, too much so that it stretches my disbelief farther than a boy that slipped away quietly while we were distracted.)


snipped

No, I did mean Mouse.  Mouse in ME2 is an ex-vent boy.  Bailey and Thane talk about that-he's lucky not to have fallen into the keeper's protein vats (uh huh) or to have been killed by a fan blade.  He outgrew it all.  But, Thane had used him and referred to him as one of the ignored.  Sure, like Newt in how he was "found" by Shepard (Ripley in Aliens), but in character more like Mouse.  The boy is dirty and alone and unseen by anyone else.  Shepard is the only one with a reaction to the kid and the shuttle destruction.

And, I'm not talking about IT.  I am talking about the stress that has taken its toll on Shepard.  It's something I started to discuss before-the kid is fully fleshed out at the beginning, but unnoticed by anyone but Shepard-the first person s/he sees.  Shepard's been sitting around getting well-fed and getting sleep.  At the end, Shepard is neither of these things-not sleeping, probably not eating, and stressed.  The kid is now less formed.

Of course, all of this is just me playing with what we have.  I don't say I just love IT-I don't disregard it because the problem is, BW at first considered it (and many other things) as ways to end the game.  It does appear they created parts of the game with it in mind, but then once they changed directions (probably), they never removed all the IT hints.  They then went with ambiguity.

[3DandBeyond]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Actually in a real way that's true.  It's why the kid and choices are a DeM (the writers and some people think they lead to a win) but aren't a DeM.  They are sometimes said to be a Diabolus ex Machina because they are not there to help.

A true DeM would help and would lead to a win.  If the choices were all between how best to destroy the reapers-say you can choose explosion, implosion or having them bunga bunga each other to death, well they'd be a DeM.

Oh, it's classic Deus Ex Machina. Reapers are conventionally unstoppable, there's technically no way to "destroy" them all even with the Crucible without friendly fire. (Original ending was very indicative of this -- mass relays, computers, ships, synthetics, the whole shebang.)

Suddenly, out of left field, meld synthetics and organics and win!

I do see what you're saying though -- yes, I'm with you on the theory that the Crucible was Harbinger's idea to manipulate Shepard and win. She had thwarted them at every turn, and the only way to stop the unstoppable force is by tricking them. Make her choose indoctrination of her own free will.

I agree and have argued as much elsewhere-the whole thing is a DeM.  That's because that's what the writers intended it all to be-choices/kid/citadel thingy all a DeM in one.  I didn't make it clear-they definitely did create a DeM ending.  What I meant of course is that it only works if you believe it solves things.  So, for me it's this horribly flawed version of one.  If a person believes it solves the problem, then they see things far different from me because the problem the DeM solves isn't one I see as the main goal, so it solves the wrong thing.

So, for me a true DeM would be one that destroys reapers.  Like if Shepard couldn't figure out how to set off the crucible and everything was about to be lost and the kid popped in to say, "use this" and it was a big "EASY" button that caused the crucible to work.

I'm not at all disagreeing with you.  It's just to me a DeM must solve the problem and goal and not just end a story any old way.  The funny thing is those that most believe it is not DeM, are those that see the endings as good-the ones for whom it really is one as the writers intended.  I'm just debating POV, is all.  If the endings are wins, then the DeM works.  If not, then there's no DeM.  My opinion.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Quarian-Geth conflict is the microcosm foreshadowing of the reaper-galactic war. Oh, I'm sorry the reapers are just "harvesting". The reapers aren't at war. They are just doing their "job" as they were created to do. "Is fire at war when it burns?" That just illustrates the level of insanity of the Catalyst.

From detailed discussion with Xen in ME2 she felt that Gerrel's desire for war against the Geth was a total waste. She wanted to study the Geth more and exploit the Quarians natural talent for AI to return them to the domination under their true masters, the Quarian race. Tali commented. "You're insane." Thus Xen represents Control.

Gerrel, represents Destroy. Koris represents peaceful coexistence, but NOT Synthesis. Be clear on that. Rael also represents Destroy for noble reasons -- to give his daughter a house on the homeworld. Tali is neutral and if she is not exiled she is made an Admiral and probably mentions her fathers wishes and that counts as a vote. Ra'an is neutral. Xen presents Rael's work and Gerrel uses that to tip the scale. Destroy it is except Xen wanted to control, but then the reapers showed up.

Basically when there were hundreds of millions or who knows how many Geth they were quite intelligent, but after about half of them were destroyed in the initial attack, they became about as dumb as varren, and the Reaper destroyer arrived and offered assistance with its signal Legion accepted and broadcast it to all Geth, making them smarter than they were, thus evening the fight.

The Rannoch Reaper represents the Catalyst AI, and what would happen to the reapers if the Catalyst AI were to be destroyed, IMO. Vigil foreshadowed that something in the Citadel was controlling the reapers, but they did not know where. They thought the keepers were the key. No one ever completely explored the Citadel because the keepers always took care of everything.

ME1: Here's where the story writing took a really bad turn -- you were going through Ilos. You were probably were taking your Prothean expert with you, and probably a tech expert. Full retard moment: No one bothered to record the conversation with Vigil. Yet Liara prompted you to talk to Vigil thoroughly and extract as much information as possible. No one recorded it. Dumb duh dumb dumb.

(Vigil also said they were vulnerable in dark space while hibernating)

What Should Have Been The Ending

It is too late to do the dark space ending. -- NOTE: NOT Drew K ending. OMG not DrewK ending.

Foreshadowing throughout game has also been a faction wanting to control the reapers and a faction wanting to destroy the reapers.

(edit: 9/25 -- what to do with Crucible .... okay, crucible powers the signal for control. It's basically been a waste of resources. It's a reaper trap.)

My idea here is that if the Controlling AI were to be destroyed the Reapers would become about as dumb as cattle since there are far fewer of them than there were geth. This would make them easy prey for the Allied Fleets.

Solution: Find the Controlling AI as foreshadowed by Vigil. But that would be a "reaper off button" with no hard choices. Just a boss fight and "too videogamey." -- Casey Hudson w/ no checks and balances.

DESTROY: Plant a buttload of C4 at key locations (i.e. power conduits) leading to the AI and blow up the thing.

OR you could CONTROL the reapers. The Illusive Man: "An EM pulse would wipe the programming and leave the technology intact. Think of what we could learn, Shepard! I've been studying the reapers my entire life, and you'd destroy everything! You all self-righteous! Sacrifices have to be made. Just think, with the Reapers under our control we could ensure the dominance of humanity for the future. No one would dare challenge us! Think of the power. With this data disk I can take control." TIM has his Overlord device in place.

"Listen to yourself. You're indoctrinated."

"No. I'm in control."

"If you're in control, then hand me the disk. Let us finish it."

"I..... can't."

FINALE: Mission goal: Survive and plant C4 charges between waves on power
conduits OR plant EM charges at key locations. Choose your "hold the
line" team leaders wisely as well, since people can die. You will have
support from some ME2 team so hopefully they survived and were loyal.
Choose your tech team wisely (bomb squad) since people can die on this.
Your choice. You can plant both and make your choice after. You'll handle Cerberus Reapers in the first wave. After the first wave, the AI, cuts in and says something stupid like "Shepard. Your race will be harvested. Surrender, and you will be spared." Now you face reaper waves. (difficulty depends upon game difficulty level) Once that's done kill TIM and evacuate area, then hit the X button (blue for control) or the B button (red for destroy).

Cutscene for Destroy shows big explosions and reapers going dumb as cattle and the fleet annihilating them. Cutscene for Control shows EMP and then Shepard running and inserting disk and gaining control over reapers via Overlord method (ah the price paid) -- at least this is also foreshadowed in ME2 and at Rannoch.

Destroy has the victory celebration (unless Shepard dies). Control has a memorial.

So there's your Destroy and Control endings without the Catalyst. If Casey Hudson's leash (the person who left to go work at 343 Studios on Halo 4) was still at Bioware this is what we might have gotten instead of that last 10 minute fiasco. At least it makes sense.

PS: I don't think anyone but an idiot would choose control. (Synthesis was never foreshadowed, IMO.) But no genocide choices like killing your allies to kill the reapers. Hard choices like if Jack is your LI do you use her team for support or for full fire -- full fire might help the success of the mission, but might cost you Jack. Tough call for you. You might need to have done that if you made the wrong pick for a hold the line leader for you to survive. Again a tough call. So some people might think this is too easy. Essentially this would be the Suicide Mission on Steroids, because those reapers are going to be coming at you.

The closest thing to Synthesis in the game was trans-quarianism. The Quarians had a lot of cybernetic implants. I'm really surprised the original and EC Destroy ending didn't wipe out them as well as the Geth.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 25 septembre 2012 - 08:23 .

[Snypy]

It is too late to do the dark space ending. My idea here is that if the Controlling AI were to be destroyed the Reapers would become about as dumb as cattle since there are far fewer of them than there were geth. This would make them easy prey for the Allied Fleets.

Actually, I think the endings we have are better than the originally intended dark energy ending. The conclusion of the game would probably be even more gloomy.

[BearlyHere]

3DandBeyond wrote...

GarvakD wrote...

Deus Ex Machina would be a conventional victory.
I think both Xen and Gerrel would destroy btw.  

Actually in a real way that's true.  It's why the kid and choices are a DeM (the writers and some people think they lead to a win) but aren't a DeM.  They are sometimes said to be a Diabolus ex Machina because they are not there to help.

A true DeM would help and would lead to a win.  If the choices were all between how best to destroy the reapers-say you can choose explosion, implosion or having them bunga bunga each other to death, well they'd be a DeM.

I hadn't thought about it before, but the starbrat is more of a Diabolus ex Mahina, since he represents the reapers. In that case, you can't trust anything he says, because he's trying to lead you astray, but in this case to damn not only Shep, but the whole galaxy. I still think even if they're persuaded to do right by us and give us a "win" ending, the Starbrat will stay, because I'll bet he's based on one of the writers' or dev's real kid.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Snypy wrote...

It is too late to do the dark space ending. My idea here is that if the Controlling AI were to be destroyed the Reapers would become about as dumb as cattle since there are far fewer of them than there were geth. This would make them easy prey for the Allied Fleets.

Actually, I think the endings we have are better than the originally intended dark energy ending. The conclusion of the game would probably be even more gloomy.

What I meant was traveling via Citadel relay into dark space and defeating them while they were hibernating. NOT the Dark Energy. The Dark Energy ending was awful. That ending was what Drew K was going to do after his leash left to go work on Halo 4.

[AresKeith]

Snypy wrote...

It is too late to do the dark space ending. My idea here is that if the Controlling AI were to be destroyed the Reapers would become about as dumb as cattle since there are far fewer of them than there were geth. This would make them easy prey for the Allied Fleets.

Actually, I think the endings we have are better than the originally intended dark energy ending. The conclusion of the game would probably be even more gloomy.

both Drew and Mac went overboard with the plot because the Narrative Director left after ME2, Mac wanted to destroy half the Galaxy pre-EC

[Snypy]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Snypy wrote...

It is too late to do the dark space ending. My idea here is that if the Controlling AI were to be destroyed the Reapers would become about as dumb as cattle since there are far fewer of them than there were geth. This would make them easy prey for the Allied Fleets.

Actually, I think the endings we have are better than the originally intended dark energy ending. The conclusion of the game would probably be even more gloomy.

What I meant was traveling via Citadel relay into dark space and defeating them while they were hibernating. NOT the Dark Energy. The Dark Energy ending was awful. That ending was what Drew K was going to do after his leash left to go work on Halo 4.

Yeah, sorry. I misunderstood you. Anyway, the Dark energy ending was something Drew intended from ME1 as the end of the trilogy, but he never got to work on ME3. In his defense, though, he did say it was a very early concept.

[3DandBeyond]

I just meant about Admiral Xen more how she viewed the geth-that to destroy them you have to think of them like her. I wasn't referring to what you are doing to the reapers. Gerrel definitely would be about destroying them at any cost.

The other point here seems to me to be that the only choice that seemed to ever be made throughout the game without indoctrination being a part of it, was destroy.

[obZen DF]

A quick side note: I love this thread so much. So many interesting things to read

[Ozida]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

PS: No one would but an idiot would choose control. Synthesis was never foreshadowed, IMO. But no hard choices like killing your allies to kill the reapers. So some people might think this is too easy. Essentially this would be Suicide Mission II.

The closest thing to Synthesis was trans-quarianism. The Quarians had a lot of cybernetic implants. I'm really surprised the Destroy ending didn't wipe out them as well as the Geth.

Well, I was surprised to see Shepard breathing after Destroy when Catalyst clearly indicated that Shepard will die. Not all went as planned, lol.

As for the choices, I can at least justify Control option, because it was presented in the game before via TIM's ideals. It was the same as keeping/ destroying Collector's base. So for my Renegade Shepard I saw no harm in becoming super-God. Not a Paragon choice, though.
Destroy is just unbalanced. It is almost as BW knew that most people will pick it against Synthesis, so they've tried to make it as uncomfortable as possible, although it is the most logical end to the war with the Reapers.
Sometimes I even wonder why devs included choices in the first place? Even in the first playthrough, before EC it was so clear to me that they wanted players to pick Synthesis. It is in the middle, it is pleasantly green and somehow it is only available to "the chosen one", Sehaprd ("We weren't ready thousand times before we tried this, but now we are. Synthesis failed every single time, but now it is going to work". WTF?!). And now with all the talks about canonising Synthesis... Why bother with the other two options anyway? 

[Xellith]

Destroy should have just blown up the citadel in the ensuing explosion and wiped out the entire solar system as well as do the normal red explosion that only targets reapers.

And that should be one of the BAD endings..

[Ozida]

Xellith wrote...

Destroy should have just blown up the citadel in the ensuing explosion and wiped out the entire solar system as well as do the normal red explosion that only targets reapers.

And that should be one of the BAD endings..

How about:
a) Low EMS - "Destroy should have just blown up the citadel in the ensuing explosion and wiped out the entire solar syste"
High EMS - "as well as do the normal red explosion that only targets reapers."
Otherwise we are stuck with 3 bad endings.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Ozida wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

PS: No one would but an idiot would choose control. Synthesis was never foreshadowed, IMO. But no hard choices like killing your allies to kill the reapers. So some people might think this is too easy. Essentially this would be Suicide Mission II.

The closest thing to Synthesis was trans-quarianism. The Quarians had a lot of cybernetic implants. I'm really surprised the Destroy ending didn't wipe out them as well as the Geth.

Well, I was surprised to see Shepard breathing after Destroy when Catalyst clearly indicated that Shepard will die. Not all went as planned, lol.

As for the choices, I can at least justify Control option, because it was presented in the game before via TIM's ideals. It was the same as keeping/ destroying Collector's base. So for my Renegade Shepard I saw no harm in becoming super-God. Not a Paragon choice, though.
Destroy is just unbalanced. It is almost as BW knew that most people will pick it against Synthesis, so they've tried to make it as uncomfortable as possible, although it is the most logical end to the war with the Reapers.
Sometimes I even wonder why devs included choices in the first place? Even in the first playthrough, before EC it was so clear to me that they wanted players to pick Synthesis. It is in the middle, it is pleasantly green and somehow it is only available to "the chosen one", Sehaprd ("We weren't ready thousand times before we tried this, but now we are. Synthesis failed every single time, but now it is going to work". WTF?!). And now with all the talks about canonising Synthesis... Why bother with the other two options anyway? 

I was referring to my revised ending, not the EC or original ending. Sorry if that was unclear to everyone. Since there was no catalyst to replace, the control would have been done Overlord style. It would have been foreshadowed in the game, not via space magic.

All the talk about synthesis becoming canon just makes my stomach turn. I'll look elsewhere for a sci-fi rpg.

[BearlyHere]

Ozida wrote...


Snip: 

Destroy is just unbalanced. It is almost as BW knew that most people will pick it against Synthesis, so they've tried to make it as uncomfortable as possible, although it is the most logical end to the war with the Reapers.
Sometimes I even wonder why devs included choices in the first place? Even in the first playthrough, before EC it was so clear to me that they wanted players to pick Synthesis. It is in the middle, it is pleasantly green and somehow it is only available to "the chosen one", Sehaprd ("We weren't ready thousand times before we tried this, but now we are. Synthesis failed every single time, but now it is going to work". WTF?!). And now with all the talks about canonising Synthesis... Why bother with the other two options anyway? 

They did it to give us the illusion of choice when they knew, or had an idea, of which direction they wanted to go. They do that with all their games, which you can see if you start a new character without an import. I've said this before, but it also reminds me of a really terrible DM whose D&D game I played in. It wasn't until a few of us went to a Con and shared our experiences that people told us, "One of those? Run away! He's writing a book? Run away fast!"  

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there are people at Bioware who would be perfectly happy if we would give them our money then shut up,  sit back and watch what they feel like giving us. They would rather produce graphic novels or vids where they don't have to incorporate our choices.  Is it burnout, or massive ego, or both?

[wymm666]

You must be naive to believe they still listen to you and not your wallet. Ok, that's a bit cynical, they do, but only when it's backed up by your wallet. Ultimately, what comes out of that studio depends entirely on how much money they're going to make, which depends on EA, which depends on their investors/shareholders, which... have nothing to do with you as a thinking feeling individual.

Best way to leverage them? torrent.