6432 réponses à ce sujet

[SpamBot2000]

Snypy wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14226254

There were 11942 participants. which is roughly 0.39% of those who bought ME3. It's a good sample, but I assume most of them come from BSN. I haven't personally found that survey anywhere. 

If anything, the sample seems to skew towards people reached through a Russian fan site. Russians being the largest demographic, along with notable responses from the Ukraine, Belorus, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia - countries that used to be in the Soviet Union and have sizable Russian speaking communities. Even Israel has a large Russian immigrant population.

But I should probably not point this out, in case I make the results look somehow less pertinent to more central EA market areas. Oh well.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 25 septembre 2012 - 02:14 .

[sdinc009]

Let's all perform a little experiment. Ready? Ok. Starting at the final scene, rewind back to before the magic elevator and pause. Now, forgetting about what happens after the elevator takes Shepard up I want you to think about something. At this point in the game, what is the main driving goal of the story? Take your time and really think and remember Shepard has not yet gone up the light elevator yet. So, what is your answer? Is it to defeat the Reapers and save the Galaxy? Or is it to solve the problem of peace between organics and synthetics?
 
Let's try another one. At this point in the game, and remember we haven't met Glowboy yet, we're still in the room TIM and Anderson died in. If you were to guess where this game was going, how should it end? Forget in depth detail for a moment and think of just logical progression. Do you think it should be with an epic battle against the Reapers? Or do you think it would be involving sitting down with the Reapers undisclosed leader, having a friendly little chat, and then making an arbitrary choice that it presents?

So let's see what the results of this little experiment are.

[SpamBot2000]

I'm getting a vision... ME has in fact always posed THE SINGLE QUESTION: "Who would you sleep with to stop THAT WHICH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO STOP?"

In part 1, it was "Would you sleep with a blue alien chick with, like, TENTACLES on her head?"

Unfortunately, lame BW never enforced this properly.

In part 2 it was "Would you sleep with a BIRD GARGOYLE dude or a suited and masked chick that could look like anything as far as you could tell... and she has CHICKEN FEET?"

Unfortunately, lame BW again failed to enforce this.

Now in part 3, it is only logical that the question should be "Would you sleep with a HERMAPHRODITIC CYBORG PYJAK?"

You should get to choose the 'Pitcher' or the 'Catcher' ending, with widely varying outcomes, and that's it.






I'm so very sorry.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 25 septembre 2012 - 02:59 .

[zioninzion]

sdinc009 wrote...

Let's all perform a little experiment. Ready? Ok. Starting at the final scene, rewind back to before the magic elevator and pause. Now, forgetting about what happens after the elevator takes Shepard up I want you to think about something. At this point in the game, what is the main driving goal of the story? Take your time and really think and remember Shepard has not yet gone up the light elevator yet. So, what is your answer? Is it to defeat the Reapers and save the Galaxy? Or is it to solve the problem of peace between organics and synthetics?
 
Let's try another one. At this point in the game, and remember we haven't met Glowboy yet, we're still in the room TIM and Anderson died in. If you were to guess where this game was going, how should it end? Forget in depth detail for a moment and think of just logical progression. Do you think it should be with an epic battle against the Reapers? Or do you think it would be involving sitting down with the Reapers undisclosed leader, having a friendly little chat, and then making an arbitrary choice that it presents?

So let's see what the results of this little experiment are.

This is perfect!!! Epic Reaper battle or turning on crucible FTW!!

[ElSuperGecko]

SpamBot2000 wrote...
I'm so very sorry.

It could be worse.

It could be an overly-amorous bisexual Yagh.

[RydeCrash]

Originally my first play through with the ME series was on the PS3. (ME2 w/Comic and ME3) My first game ending was Pre-EC, after my dialog with the “Catalyst” I stood on the gang plank and didn’t move. I went to the menu screen and loaded the Auto Save of the beam entrance. I felt I had somehow missed a dialog option with the Catalyst, standing once again on the gang plank. I had convinced myself I was going to find out the “Child” was one of the “Duct Rats” Bailey talks about while doing Thanes loyalty mission.

After the EC I had a bit more clarity to the context however I felt confident that the PS3 version of the game had narrowed the story progression not having ME1 as the base. I have now played the series on the PC, if there is one thing I could share with other PS3 players is get the titles on the PC it is a vastly bigger gaming experience from the PS3 version. That said however the difference does not change the ending in anyway.

With “Leviathan” and the upcoming “Omega” I understand we will gain more Clarity to Context of the ME story. It has been stated several times by Bioware that the EC is the final change to the plot ending. (IMO) What I have taken from the ending is Bioware was intending the players to use our imagination for our Shepard’s end (IMO). If this is the case the endings are not “Bitter Sweet” they are just plain cruel.

(IMO) There are only a few “Bitter Sweet” game endings that succeeded at that type of story telling. The most recent (Again IMO) “Red Dead Redemption.”

Ryde...

[3DandBeyond]

sdinc009 wrote...

Let's all perform a little experiment. Ready? Ok. Starting at the final scene, rewind back to before the magic elevator and pause. Now, forgetting about what happens after the elevator takes Shepard up I want you to think about something. At this point in the game, what is the main driving goal of the story? Take your time and really think and remember Shepard has not yet gone up the light elevator yet. So, what is your answer? Is it to defeat the Reapers and save the Galaxy? Or is it to solve the problem of peace between organics and synthetics?
 
Let's try another one. At this point in the game, and remember we haven't met Glowboy yet, we're still in the room TIM and Anderson died in. If you were to guess where this game was going, how should it end? Forget in depth detail for a moment and think of just logical progression. Do you think it should be with an epic battle against the Reapers? Or do you think it would be involving sitting down with the Reapers undisclosed leader, having a friendly little chat, and then making an arbitrary choice that it presents?

So let's see what the results of this little experiment are.

Well, you know where I'm at.  That's similar to the question I've posed and probably way more relevant.  As I have asked (and yet to have those that just are so in love with the endings answer) is what they thought would happen when they opened the box to ME3 and put the game disk in the drive.  Or go back to ME1 and then ME2.  Is this honestly how you hoped it would end?  I think it's unforseeable that at the end we'd be given arbitrary choices that yes, to involve questions raised in the games, but don't honor the main themes.

It would have made far more sense if the choices had been between choosing Unity, Redemption, or Diversity as ways to destroy the reapers.  These were the main themes. 

To answer your question, I honestly thought we would probably set off the crucible and it would do something, but then we'd fight reapers.  I knew Shepard was in bad shape so I thought that there might be someone who would come and get Shepard out of there or even that it was possible Shepard would die or sacrifice herself, but I figured I'd replay it and do better.  And I thought it was going to be great fun to do so.  Boss conversations are way over-rated and only really loved by 2 entities that may well spell the doom of this type of game-fans that can't understand why this kind of ending feels so hollow and Bioware.  I never want to play a game like this again.  And you can take that tow mean 2 things, both relevant. 

At this point, I really don't want to play a game that allows me choices and I certainly don't want to play a game that has no sensible and realistic actual win at the end.  I play games to win.  And I say this with only one exception or caveat.  As it stands now, this game has trashed my idea of what was great about ME-making choices and feel like you determined the direction of the game.  Since someone decided that none of that mattered after I spent all the real play time and other world time waiting for the games and starting different Shepards and thinking I'd play all of them through to the end, then I never want to play a game with choices if this is the direction they will take.  I don't play games to feel sad at the end.  I don't play them to find some idiotic notion of balance.  I am so sick and tired of people thinking that is some realistic thing that needs to be at the end of this game.  It's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.  It's like saying sporting events are best when they end in a tie or a draw.  Or that in live everything always has some mirror image.  The only balance I want in a video game is a way to lose and a way to win and a way to actually feel like I've done both.  Balance as others see it does exist at the end, it's that ambivalent, ambiguity all wrapped up into one.  The real balance it should have is not there.  There's many shades of demented, but little else.

[Snypy]

RydeCrash wrote...
...

With “Leviathan” and the upcoming “Omega” I understand we will gain more Clarity to Context of the ME story. It has been stated several times by Bioware that the EC is the final change to the plot ending. (IMO) What I have taken from the ending is Bioware was intending the players to use our imagination for our Shepard’s end (IMO). If this is the case the endings are not “Bitter Sweet” they are just plain cruel.

...

I think the writers want us to imagine for ourselves what happens in the future to Shep (if you went for Destroy) and the other main characters. Therefore, your ending is as good as your imagination.

[CaIIisto]

Snypy wrote...
I think the writers want us to imagine for ourselves what happens in the future to Shep (if you went for Destroy) and the other main characters. Therefore, your ending is as good as your imagination.

Shame we didn't know this beforehand. I could have imagined the whole end to the story and saved myself £40.....

[CronoDragoon]

Jamie9 wrote...

Yeah, I practically have gaming OCD. In fact, if I miss something, I often do restart the game. I've never had any problem with the journal, however. Just go to the galaxy map and hover over each system. If it doesn't say 100% resources found, you need to scan planets there.

Yeah. For a completionist the journal should really be irrelevant. You're going to scan all the planets anyway.

[CronoDragoon]

Bester76 wrote...
Shame we didn't know this beforehand. I could have imagined the whole end to the story and saved myself £40.....

Yes, you could have. But that's not a counterargument to leaving some things up to the imagination which, quite frankly, are probably better left open. Do I think we should have had the crew find Shepard in the rubble? Maybe. It depends how well they do it and whether or not it conforms to my (by now) well established version of the scene. I have no problem with no Shepard epilogue however. By no means should BW have suggested anything beyond an extended rubble scene for Shepard.

To make a parallel, after playing ME2, I was fascinated with imagining the scene of Liara finding the burned and broken Shepard. Very emotional in my mind. When the scene came along in the comics, I was very disappointed. Was it because the writing in the comics is poor, or because it didn't match up with what I expected? It's probably a little of both, but in any case if a scene has the characteristics that provoke fans to have a very specific expectation (which can vary wildly between fans) then I don't entirely blame BW for leaving some things unshown.

[3DandBeyond]

RydeCrash wrote...

Originally my first play through with the ME series was on the PS3. (ME2 w/Comic and ME3) My first game ending was Pre-EC, after my dialog with the “Catalyst” I stood on the gang plank and didn’t move. I went to the menu screen and loaded the Auto Save of the beam entrance. I felt I had somehow missed a dialog option with the Catalyst, standing once again on the gang plank. I had convinced myself I was going to find out the “Child” was one of the “Duct Rats” Bailey talks about while doing Thanes loyalty mission.

After the EC I had a bit more clarity to the context however I felt confident that the PS3 version of the game had narrowed the story progression not having ME1 as the base. I have now played the series on the PC, if there is one thing I could share with other PS3 players is get the titles on the PC it is a vastly bigger gaming experience from the PS3 version. That said however the difference does not change the ending in anyway.

With “Leviathan” and the upcoming “Omega” I understand we will gain more Clarity to Context of the ME story. It has been stated several times by Bioware that the EC is the final change to the plot ending. (IMO) What I have taken from the ending is Bioware was intending the players to use our imagination for our Shepard’s end (IMO). If this is the case the endings are not “Bitter Sweet” they are just plain cruel.

(IMO) There are only a few “Bitter Sweet” game endings that succeeded at that type of story telling. The most recent (Again IMO) “Red Dead Redemption.”

Ryde...

Exactly.  You can play the whole thing from ME1 to ME3 and get more dialogue with characters you don't see if you just play ME2 and 3 or just ME3, but it doesn't change anything.

And you are so right--bitter sweet is not easy to do well so unless you are the bestest writer ever, don't do it.  I think many have come up with ideas that could have made it so.  I imagine something along the lines of the crucible being damaged and Hackett radioing in saying that if Shepard sets it off it could well kill him/her and then it becoming clear that the reapers were overtaking the FOB in London and were closing in on say the Normandy, threatening others and Shepard deciding it had to be risked.  Shepard setting off the crucible and then flashbacks of scenes and not just people that mattered, but the things that this was all about.  Shepard dying and teammates/LI finding his/her body in the rubble and realizing Shepard is dead.  To me, that's bittersweet.  The reapers defeated with no equivocation-they are dead and gone.  But Shepard's not there to see it-is clearly dead and then truly memorialized, not just with a paltry name on the wall-wow, is that ever satisfying.  Die and supposedly (but not really) save the galaxy and you get your name on the wall.  Sounds like an idea, "I died saving the galaxy and all I have to show for it is this  T shirt".

Or, bittersweet could have been having to decide between saving teammates or the Normandy (too close to reapers when they go boom) and actually destroying the reapers-or just finding out that the Normandy with all on board blew up too.  Or, havng your LI die because you had to ask that help be sent to defend the crucible-then you win the war, but know your LI is dead.

Simplistic versions, but to me more emotional because they happened while you were just trying to win the war.  And they led to winning.  That to me is bittersweet-something obviously good coming from something very sad. 

And then, have a way to get a happier ending too.

[Xellith]

You know - some people have said that "changing the ending will set a bad precident" or some such.

In Final Fantasy 11 (an MMORPG) you have 3 nations, each with their own missions.  Some missions can be done with the other nations and others are nation specific.

Mission 6 I believe involves traveling to Castle Vahzl and defeating the "Shadow Lord".  So you beat him and bam.  New rank and such. 

The very next expansion (which also came with the NA and EU versions of the game) more or less started by saying "hey are you alright?" or something.  It turns out that what you saw didnt happen the way you thought it did.  You missed an entire segment where the 5 Ark Angels are summoned and kick the ass of the Shadow Lord.

Original "Ending" www.youtube.com/watch
Zilart Retcon "Ending" Part 1 www.youtube.com/watch
Zilart Retcon "Ending" Part 2 www.youtube.com/watch

Basically put.  The original ending was a "dream" and what really happened was revealed in the Zilart Expansion Pack.

And blood donation was successful    Made me break my diet though since I said "screw it CHEESEBURGUR NAO!"

Modifié par Xellith, 25 septembre 2012 - 04:28 .

[CronoDragoon]

I think the precedent argument stems from the fact that fans are forcing a dev to change their story, not so much the mere fact of changing an ending itself. It's still a dubious argument, but I don't think your Zilart expansion cuts to the heart of the issue.

[3DandBeyond]

Bester76 wrote...

Snypy wrote...
I think the writers want us to imagine for ourselves what happens in the future to Shep (if you went for Destroy) and the other main characters. Therefore, your ending is as good as your imagination.

Shame we didn't know this beforehand. I could have imagined the whole end to the story and saved myself £40.....

Yes, really.  I love to imagine things and I can do that for free.  For a game that literally shows the flesh flying off of Shepard's face, I don't think there's a real understanding of where people like to use their imagination.  I'm fine with imagining how Biotics work.  I'm fine with imagining a lot of things.  But, provide closure for the main characters of your story and especially do so in a multiple ending story for all endings, or do it for none of them.

[CaIIisto]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Bester76 wrote...
Shame we didn't know this beforehand. I could have imagined the whole end to the story and saved myself £40.....

Yes, you could have. But that's not a counterargument to leaving some things up to the imagination which, quite frankly, are probably better left open. Do I think we should have had the crew find Shepard in the rubble? Maybe. It depends how well they do it and whether or not it conforms to my (by now) well established version of the scene. I have no problem with no Shepard epilogue however. By no means should BW have suggested anything beyond an extended rubble scene for Shepard.

To make a parallel, after playing ME2, I was fascinated with imagining the scene of Liara finding the burned and broken Shepard. Very emotional in my mind. When the scene came along in the comics, I was very disappointed. Was it because the writing in the comics is poor, or because it didn't match up with what I expected? It's probably a little of both, but in any case if a scene has the characteristics that provoke fans to have a very specific expectation (which can vary wildly between fans) then I don't entirely blame BW for leaving some things unshown.

It's disappointing that a game which has always professed to be about player choice and self-determination, ultimately gives the player a selection of endings where the most upbeat is one that's marginally less depressing than the others. 

[CronoDragoon]

Bester76 wrote...

It's disappointing that a game which has always professed to be about player choice and self-determination, ultimately gives the player a selection of endings where the most upbeat is one that's marginally less depressing than the others. 

There's two separate issues here. One is player choice, the other is a lack of a happy ending. Player choice is there; the endings are notably different and the player can decide the general outlook of the galaxy. It's just that players wanted those choices to be happier. I agree that they are unnecessarily dark. Well, Destroy anyway. I think Control and Synthesis enders are much more satisfied with the tone of their endings.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 25 septembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[CaIIisto]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Yes, really.  I love to imagine things and I can do that for free.  For a game that literally shows the flesh flying off of Shepard's face, I don't think there's a real understanding of where people like to use their imagination.  I'm fine with imagining how Biotics work.  I'm fine with imagining a lot of things.  But, provide closure for the main characters of your story and especially do so in a multiple ending story for all endings, or do it for none of them.

Agreed.

Choosing 'destroy', I get no sense of closure for the character that I've controlled for three games and five years.

Thanks BW.

[CaIIisto]

CronoDragoon wrote...

There's two separate issues here. One is player choice, the other is a lack of a happy ending. Player choice is there; the endings are notably different and the player can decide the general outlook of the galaxy. It's just that players wanted those choices to be happier. I agree that they are unnecessarily dark.

Not so much that they wanted all the choices to be happier, but one of them would have been appreciated. 

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I think the precedent argument stems from the fact that fans are forcing a dev to change their story, not so much the mere fact of changing an ending itself. It's still a dubious argument, but I don't think your Zilart expansion cuts to the heart of the issue.

But, no matter the point of the argument, none of it is even true or even a genuine argument.  No one is forcing anyone to do anything.  You can't do so in this situation.  You can plead, beg, demand and even do a lot of nastier things, but you can't force that to happen.  It all comes down to the dev deciding a win/loss ratio.  In businesses, even the airline industry, there's an acceptable loss factor.  Airlines decide how many people they can afford to lose as customers (unhappy, injured, or dead) and factor in cost vs. savings and profits.  Other companies may deal with theft and the costs of dealing with returns or other such lost profit, items known as shrink.  For Bioware to do anything, they must as a company decide whether the benefits outweigh the costs.

The other part of it is, that game devs already do change their stories based on fan input.  They may not change the current game (but they do if they do beta testing), but they often incorporate things into DLC and/or in the next game they make.  It's a fact, there was no, is no, could never be any precedent set here, because the precedent already exists.

Even if it were not in games, specifically, it exists in all kinds of other consumer products.  Buyers/fans/focus groups/product testers/publishers/editors/reviewers/critics/youtube/producers/benefactors/psychologists/marketers and a lot of other people all decide what consumers ultimately will buy even before consumer products are ever made.  ME exists because of things that came before-SF books, games, movies, tv shows, and all kinds of things.  In creating ME, the devs already used fan input.  They did so, the very first time they considered a mass relay or any other thing in the game.  It's because all things and not just SF is derived from some other thing.  George Lucas used movies like Wings as the inspiration for fights in space because Wings was done well and was a fan favorite.

I'm just saying that everything we do, and game devs are no different, is basically done (for the most part) because we want other humans to like us.  Bioware creates games to sell and make money, so they do so with an idea that fans must like them and they should be constantly considering what that means or they will fail.  I don't want that, but you don't just throw stuff out there and tell people to like it, because that's all they're getting.  They would never have used all the big and little pieces of other stories that were successful if this was about not forming the games to fit fan preferences.

[3DandBeyond]

Bester76 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Bester76 wrote...
Shame we didn't know this beforehand. I could have imagined the whole end to the story and saved myself £40.....

Yes, you could have. But that's not a counterargument to leaving some things up to the imagination which, quite frankly, are probably better left open. Do I think we should have had the crew find Shepard in the rubble? Maybe. It depends how well they do it and whether or not it conforms to my (by now) well established version of the scene. I have no problem with no Shepard epilogue however. By no means should BW have suggested anything beyond an extended rubble scene for Shepard.

To make a parallel, after playing ME2, I was fascinated with imagining the scene of Liara finding the burned and broken Shepard. Very emotional in my mind. When the scene came along in the comics, I was very disappointed. Was it because the writing in the comics is poor, or because it didn't match up with what I expected? It's probably a little of both, but in any case if a scene has the characteristics that provoke fans to have a very specific expectation (which can vary wildly between fans) then I don't entirely blame BW for leaving some things unshown.

It's disappointing that a game which has always professed to be about player choice and self-determination, ultimately gives the player a selection of endings where the most upbeat is one that's marginally less depressing than the others. 

Yes, this is it and it is actually oddly very laughable.  You end up figuring best ending is not a sorta kinda happy one, but one that is just not so dementedly depressing.

I find synthesis and control to be so similar in what they are and do (what a logical real outcome of them would be) and they aren't things worth even killing a fly for, let alone the hero of the galaxy, 3 games, 5 years, hundreds of hours of play.  And destroy requires you kill far more just to see a torso gasp. This is what all of that came down to, that a great many people are so, well desperate for a "happier" ending, that they have to hang onto one gasp from a torso in rubble.  I've said it before and will again-that is sadistic and cruel.  The whole thing.  It's not fun and it so was not worth it.  I don't even see that as worth creating, spending all that money on making. 

[Snypy]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Bester76 wrote...
Shame we didn't know this beforehand. I could have imagined the whole end to the story and saved myself £40.....

Yes, you could have. But that's not a counterargument to leaving some things up to the imagination which, quite frankly, are probably better left open. Do I think we should have had the crew find Shepard in the rubble? Maybe. It depends how well they do it and whether or not it conforms to my (by now) well established version of the scene. I have no problem with no Shepard epilogue however. By no means should BW have suggested anything beyond an extended rubble scene for Shepard.

To make a parallel, after playing ME2, I was fascinated with imagining the scene of Liara finding the burned and broken Shepard. Very emotional in my mind. When the scene came along in the comics, I was very disappointed. Was it because the writing in the comics is poor, or because it didn't match up with what I expected? It's probably a little of both, but in any case if a scene has the characteristics that provoke fans to have a very specific expectation (which can vary wildly between fans) then I don't entirely blame BW for leaving some things unshown.

Yes, I agree with you, CronoDragoon. Some things are better left open, particularly when Mac Walters is the lead writer.

Modifié par Snypy, 25 septembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[zioninzion]

Gore Vidal, one of the great American writers and playwrights of our time once wrote a popular play called "Visit to a Small Planet". His originally ending had the world coming to an end. However, during the first showings people were so appalled as were producers that he had to change the ending.

This is why I don't believe this artistic integrity stuff. BW wouldn't be the first or last to change unacceptable endings. And like someone else said, its sadistic to draw the players so into the game just to leave them with that ending.

For the record I do not think BW should change the ending. That would upset me. What they should do is a)pretend that IT is theirs or own up to it or b)continue ME4 where ME3 left off and give us something to be excited for.

Sorry if this is random.

[Snypy]

zioninzion wrote...

Gore Vidal, one of the great American writers and playwrights of our time once wrote a popular play called "Visit to a Small Planet". His originally ending had the world coming to an end. However, during the first showings people were so appalled as were producers that he had to change the ending.

This is why I don't believe this artistic integrity stuff. BW wouldn't be the first or last to change unacceptable endings. And like someone else said, its sadistic to draw the players so into the game just to leave them with that ending.

For the record I do not think BW should change the ending. That would upset me. What they should do is a)pretend that IT is theirs or own up to it or b)continue ME4 where ME3 left off and give us something to be excited for.

Sorry if this is random.

I fear that you might have been indoctrinated.  (joking)

Modifié par Snypy, 25 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[zioninzion]

Snypy wrote...

zioninzion wrote...

Gore Vidal, one of the great American writers and playwrights of our time once wrote a popular play called "Visit to a Small Planet". His originally ending had the world coming to an end. However, during the first showings people were so appalled as were producers that he had to change the ending.

This is why I don't believe this artistic integrity stuff. BW wouldn't be the first or last to change unacceptable endings. And like someone else said, its sadistic to draw the players so into the game just to leave them with that ending.

For the record I do not think BW should change the ending. That would upset me. What they should do is a)pretend that IT is theirs or own up to it or b)continue ME4 where ME3 left off and give us something to be excited for.

Sorry if this is random.

I fear that you might have been indoctrinated.  (joking)

Entirely possible - Just cant accept space magic as a conclusion