6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Chaotic-Fusion]

dreman9999 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

That relates to Shepard's influence. The one relating to choices, called "War Assets feel like they matter and significantly impact the endings" is on page 25/26.

The survey makes it pretty clear that making choices matter is among the things people felt the EC didn't do at all.

"The EE improves War Assets the least of any issue, with the total disagree score falling from
54% to 45% and the total agree score rising from 30% to 37%."

And most of the "total agree" score comes from the "agree" option, with few people choosing "strongly agree". While many people choose "strongly disagree".

Influence is choice. On the matter of war assets is a matter of how significat it felt to the player in the end of the game. Ofcorse it did not, none of it was ever shown in the last battle. The war assets score not being good just mean bioware did priority earth badly, not that choice did not matter.

Most of war assets are not brought in by basedon player choice. A good portion is gained via search and rescue. Other is via import from MP. War assets being graded bad is not an issue of lack of player choice influence being that you can get a good protion without making plot choices. That just an issue of them not being shown...Aka, for BW to fix it they need to redo priority earth.

Did you miss the "... and significantly impact the endings."

What you linked from page 23 is asking people if they felt the Shepards actions directly and clearly influence the overall goals (stopping the reapers). It never mentions choices. Many people in the OE endings felt that Shepard wasn't responsible for the crucible firing since he was just allowed to use it by the catalyst, he didn't contribute much. That's slightly fixed in the EC, though the dialog options. That's what that question was refering to.

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You're right, of course. I'd forgotten that Hamlet and R&J were RPGs built upon choice, consequence and self-determination.

So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player?

stop using those for examples, because they were easy choices for most people.

You doing this means you have no real argument to fall on

[bip78]

Chardonney wrote...

I fully agree with the OP. Listen BioWare, for once. One voice represents many.

second that!

[dreman9999]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

@Dreman

That relates to Shepard's influence. The one relating to choices, called "War Assets feel like they matter and significantly impact the endings" is on page 25/26.

The survey makes it pretty clear that making choices matter is among the things people felt the EC didn't do at all.

"The EE improves War Assets the least of any issue, with the total disagree score falling from
54% to 45% and the total agree score rising from 30% to 37%."

And most of the "total agree" score comes from the "agree" option, with few people choosing "strongly agree". While many people choose "strongly disagree".

Influence is choice. On the matter of war assets is a matter of how significat it felt to the player in the end of the game. Ofcorse it did not, none of it was ever shown in the last battle. The war assets score not being good just mean bioware did priority earth badly, not that choice did not matter.

Most of war assets are not brought in by basedon player choice. A good portion is gained via search and rescue. Other is via import from MP. War assets being graded bad is not an issue of lack of player choice influence being that you can get a good protion without making plot choices. That just an issue of them not being shown...Aka, for BW to fix it they need to redo priority earth.

Did you miss the "... and significantly impact the endings."

What you linked from page 23 is asking people if they felt the Shepards actions directly and clearly influence the overall goals (stopping the reapers). It never mentions choices. Many people in the OE endings felt that Shepard wasn't responsible for the crucible firing since he was just allowed to use it by the catalyst, he didn't contribute much. That's slightly fixed in the EC, though the dialog options. That's what that question was refering to.

No it's not. That still means the fact it was not shown mean people did not feel it had an impact, Not that choices did not matter.
As I said before, war assets are not only gain by choices. That means say war assets did not have an impact in the end does not mean you choices did not.

The question of Shepards influence is a quetion of choice. What ever Shepard influences is 100% based on his/her choices.

In one people did feel like Shepard influence did not matter in oe because all the endings we the same no matter what.
That why in ec that improve vastly. The ending are different based on what you choose in the end and ems score.
That means choices matter now. And people clearly feel that post ec. If not a slight fix. It's a complete fix. The only reason you seeing it as a slight fix is because you don't like the choices given to you.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 septembre 2012 - 08:41 .

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You're right, of course. I'd forgotten that Hamlet and R&J were RPGs built upon choice, consequence and self-determination.

So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player?

stop using those for examples, because they were easy choices for most people.

You doing this means you have no real argument to fall on

Not even most people found those choices easy. Theose are good example becaus they all cause moral conflict.
Should I make my point agein...
http://penny-arcade....enriching-lives 

[Chaotic-Fusion]

dreman9999 wrote...


No it not. That still means the fact it was not shown mean people did not feel it had an impact, Not that choices did not matter.
As I said before, war assets are not only gain by choices. That means say war assets did not have an impact in the end does not mean you choices did not.

The question of Shepards influence is a quetion of choice. What ever Shepard influences is 100% based on his/her choices.

In one people did feel like Shepard influence did not matter in oe because all the endings we the same no matter what.
That why in ec that improve vastly. The ending are different based on what you choose in the end and ems score.
That means choices matter now. And people clearly feel that post ec. If not a slight fix. It's a complete fix. The only reason you seeing it as a slight fix is because you don't like the choices given to you.

lol, the question outright asks if people felt if war assets impacted the endings. All the choices people made have their respective war asset. How hard is that to understand?

Yes, the endings are different base on what you chose in the end. Not influenced by our choices. I could have enough multiplayer promotions to unlock the best ending with them alone. The EMS system is an arbitrary mess.

Modifié par Chaotic-Fusion, 25 septembre 2012 - 08:44 .

[AresKeith]

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You're right, of course. I'd forgotten that Hamlet and R&J were RPGs built upon choice, consequence and self-determination.

So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player?

stop using those for examples, because they were easy choices for most people.

You doing this means you have no real argument to fall on

Not even most people found those choices easy. Theose are good example becaus they all cause moral conflict.
Should I make my point agein...
http://penny-arcade....enriching-lives 

no its not your point because one video is someone's opinion. Once again weak argument to try and make yourself right

[dreman9999]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


No it not. That still means the fact it was not shown mean people did not feel it had an impact, Not that choices did not matter.
As I said before, war assets are not only gain by choices. That means say war assets did not have an impact in the end does not mean you choices did not.

The question of Shepards influence is a quetion of choice. What ever Shepard influences is 100% based on his/her choices.

In one people did feel like Shepard influence did not matter in oe because all the endings we the same no matter what.
That why in ec that improve vastly. The ending are different based on what you choose in the end and ems score.
That means choices matter now. And people clearly feel that post ec. If not a slight fix. It's a complete fix. The only reason you seeing it as a slight fix is because you don't like the choices given to you.

lol, the question outright asks if people felt if war assets impacted the endings. All the choices people made have their respective war asset. How hard is that to understand?

Yes, the endings are different base on what you chose in the end. Not influenced by our choices. I could have enough multiplayer promotions to unlock the best ending with them alone. The EMS system is an arbitrary mess.

Agein, war assets ar not only gotten by choice. How do you not get that? Because of that the grade of war assets does nto apply to shepards choice.

On page 28 there is even a tally bring up the percetages and averages that clearly divide Shepards actions and war assets.

War assets and Shepard actions anf choices are not one in the same. 

And the ending is dependent on your choice.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet and Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You're right, of course. I'd forgotten that Hamlet and R&J were RPGs built upon choice, consequence and self-determination.

So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player?

stop using those for examples, because they were easy choices for most people.

You doing this means you have no real argument to fall on

Not even most people found those choices easy. Theose are good example becaus they all cause moral conflict.
Should I make my point agein...
http://penny-arcade....enriching-lives 

no its not your point because one video is someone's opinion. Once again weak argument to try and make yourself right

It's a strong opinion that is heavyly backed which many people agree with.  ME has alway given us these moraliy conflicting choices. It not deffered becauseyou did not feel morally conflicted.
Morallity is subjected, not everyone is going to feel morally conflicted over the same thing.

[ld1449]

Why do you people bother?

Talking to Dreman, TXgoldrush or Blueprotoss is like headbutting a brick wall and hoping that after enough hits it'll give.

The arguments go round the merry go ride and do nothing because according to them, they're right and the rest of the world is wrong, even when presented with evidence directly to the contrary.

[AresKeith]

ld1449 wrote...

Why do you people bother?

Talking to Dreman, TXgoldrush or Blueprotoss is like headbutting a brick wall and hoping that after enough hits it'll give.

The arguments go round the merry go ride and do nothing because according to them, they're right and the rest of the world is wrong, even when presented with evidence directly to the contrary.

we should make a contest for them

[dreman9999]

ld1449 wrote...

Why do you people bother?

Talking to Dreman, TXgoldrush or Blueprotoss is like headbutting a brick wall and hoping that after enough hits it'll give.

The arguments go round the merry go ride and do nothing because according to them, they're right and the rest of the world is wrong, even when presented with evidence directly to the contrary.

You do realze this is the only topic on the board like this. I wonder why?

[Chaotic-Fusion]

dreman9999 wrote...

Agein, war assets ar not only gotten by choice. How do you not get that? Because of that the grade of war assets does nto apply to shepards choice.

On page 28 there is even a tally bring up the percetages and averages that clearly divide Shepards actions and war assets.

War assets and Shepard actions anf choices are not one in the same. 

And the ending is dependent on your choice.

Yes they are. Choose to help that upstanding citizen with finding his lost fleet? Choice. As much of a choice as helping someone with their loyalty mission.

All choices have their respective War Asset. Ergo, War Assets not impacting the ending means choices not impacting the endings.

Or do you think that question asked people if their random multiplayer promotion impacted the endings? That would be an incredibly useless question.

EMS is arbitrary and broken. I can save the Rachni queen, get her 100 EMS, or I could kill her and get the 100 EMS in multiplayer. Nothing changes.

See the second last option in page 28. What you equated to choice is written as "You (not the catalyst) determine the end. "

Now reread what I wrote before: "Many people in the OE endings felt that Shepard wasn't responsible for the crucible firing since he was just allowed to use it by the catalyst, he didn't contribute much. That's slightly fixed in the EC, though the dialog options. That's what that question was refering to."

[ld1449]

AresKeith wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

Why do you people bother?

Talking to Dreman, TXgoldrush or Blueprotoss is like headbutting a brick wall and hoping that after enough hits it'll give.

The arguments go round the merry go ride and do nothing because according to them, they're right and the rest of the world is wrong, even when presented with evidence directly to the contrary.

we should make a contest for them

I often wonder if they studied under the same debate club teacher.

[SpamBot2000]

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet , Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You mean the Hamlet in which you create a character called Hamlet and make all these choices, like whether to stab Polonius or not, and the story changes according to that, advertised with the phrase "Take Denmark back!", and certainly not as "The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark".

Why that's almost as valid as comparing ME with the Teletubbies, but not quite.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:04 .

[Chaotic-Fusion]

ld1449 wrote...

Why do you people bother?

Talking to Dreman, TXgoldrush or Blueprotoss is like headbutting a brick wall and hoping that after enough hits it'll give.

The arguments go round the merry go ride and do nothing because according to them, they're right and the rest of the world is wrong, even when presented with evidence directly to the contrary.

You're right. It's useless, I should have learned that by now. I think I'm stopping now before he makes me go insane.

[dreman9999]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Agein, war assets ar not only gotten by choice. How do you not get that? Because of that the grade of war assets does nto apply to shepards choice.

On page 28 there is even a tally bring up the percetages and averages that clearly divide Shepards actions and war assets.

War assets and Shepard actions anf choices are not one in the same. 

And the ending is dependent on your choice.

Yes they are. Choose to help that upstanding citizen with finding his lost fleet? Choice. As much of a choice as helping someone with their loyalty mission.

All choices have their respective War Asset. Ergo, War Assets not impacting the ending means choices not impacting the endings.

Or do you think that question asked people if their random multiplayer promotion impacted the endings? That would be an incredibly useless question.

EMS is arbitrary and broken. I can save the Rachni queen, get her 100 EMS, or I could kill her and get the 100 EMS in multiplayer. Nothing changes.

See the second last option in page 28. What you equated to choice is written as "You (not the catalyst) determine the end. "

Now reread what I wrote before: "Many people in the OE endings felt that Shepard wasn't responsible for the crucible firing since he was just allowed to use it by the catalyst, he didn't contribute much. That's slightly fixed in the EC, though the dialog options. That's what that question was refering to."

The issue of the war assets is that they are not seen, not how they are gained. Remeber it does say how it influences the ending. How can it influece the ending if they are never seen?

Tha what you not getting.
Also note the the question is about war assets not ems.
Added a systemin a game can only be broken base on how you get your states and how much. The value of items are does not brake the system.

EMS is no differnt then from a attribute system or a video game economy. It can only be broken it the player is too underpowered by it or has a way to be gain a serplus in an easy way.

EMS only be broken it we had an extremely way to get ems points then other ways. As it goes, the mp is the hardest way to get ems then form choices and search and rescue. A value of what an object is in ems means nothing to how well the system is as long as the system is balanced.

Asking why one thing is this ammount of ems while another is that ammount of ems, is no diffent then asking why one weapon or gear is this much while another is that much, it's just an issue of balance.

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:13 .

[dreman9999]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet , Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You mean the Hamlet in which you create a character called Hamlet and make all these choices, like whether to stab Polonius or not, and the story changes according to that, advertised with the phrase "Take Denmark back!", and certainly not as "The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark".

Why that's almost as valid as comparing ME with the Teletubbies, but not quite.

As I said before...
So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player? 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

dreman9999 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

snip

ME3 was a great place to start because your choices didn't matter.

We have a survey on the borad that shows ha people who feel there choices don't matter post ec are the minority....Vast minority at that.

You choices do matter. You just don't like the choices you have on hand.

FEELING your choices matter, and HAVING your choices matter are two different things. The first is an emotional response. The second is factual.

It's all EMS.

[dreman9999]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

snip

ME3 was a great place to start because your choices didn't matter.

We have a survey on the borad that shows ha people who feel there choices don't matter post ec are the minority....Vast minority at that.

You choices do matter. You just don't like the choices you have on hand.

FEELING your choices matter, and HAVING your choices matter are two different things. The first is an emotional response. The second is factual.

It's all EMS.

Your only not feeling your choices don't matter because you don't like the choices on hand.
To you is like being give  3 foods you hate to have but being told to pick. You have choie but you don't want anythin gthat being served.

[SpamBot2000]

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet , Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You mean the Hamlet in which you create a character called Hamlet and make all these choices, like whether to stab Polonius or not, and the story changes according to that, advertised with the phrase "Take Denmark back!", and certainly not as "The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark".

Why that's almost as valid as comparing ME with the Teletubbies, but not quite.

As I said before...
So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player? 

I fail to see the relevance here. The ending is flawed because it makes the series meaningless, not because it's 'hard'. It's very freaking easy to shoot the tube. But what the submission to Boss Reaper and killing your allies do is make Mass Effect as a whole deeply unsatisfying. I certainly didn't spend all that money and time to play Sophie's Choice. And I fail to see the virtue you seem to find in such a trilogy.

I suppose you sleep on a bed of nails and congratulate yourself on your moral superiority to pathetic mattress-sleepers too. "Goddamn Disney featherbeds... "

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:24 .

[ld1449]

dreman9999 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

snip

ME3 was a great place to start because your choices didn't matter.

We have a survey on the borad that shows ha people who feel there choices don't matter post ec are the minority....Vast minority at that.

You choices do matter. You just don't like the choices you have on hand.

FEELING your choices matter, and HAVING your choices matter are two different things. The first is an emotional response. The second is factual.

It's all EMS.

Your only not feeling your choices don't matter because you don't like the choices on hand.
To you is like being give  3 foods you hate to have but being told to pick. You have choie but you don't want anythin gthat being served.

...Your point?

She's saying your choices don't matter.

You say that the only reason she sees it that way is because she just doesn't like the choices on hand.

To use your ridiculous analogy. No matter which one of the 3 foods I choose. It will not matter in the end because I will still dislike the meal. The fact that my only options consists of 3 foods I detest does not make the choice of food difficult or meaningful. It only expedites the choice of my picking the one that looks least disgusting.

In the end, No matter what I pick though, I leave feeling unsatisfied knowing that the food would have been bad no matter what I ordered.

So again...Your point?

[dreman9999]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet , Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You mean the Hamlet in which you create a character called Hamlet and make all these choices, like whether to stab Polonius or not, and the story changes according to that, advertised with the phrase "Take Denmark back!", and certainly not as "The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark".

Why that's almost as valid as comparing ME with the Teletubbies, but not quite.

As I said before...
So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player? 

I fail to see the relevance here. The ending is flawed because it makes the series meaningless, not because it's 'hard'. It's very freaking easy to shoot the tube. But what the submission to Boss Reaper and killing your allies do is make Mass Effect as a whole deeply unsatisfying. I certainly didn't spend all that money and time to play Sophie's Choice. And I fail to see the virtue you seem to find in such a trilogy.

I suppose you sleep on a bed of nails and congratulate yourself on your moral superiority to pathetic mattress-sleepers too. "Goddamn Disney featherbeds... "

The 4 choiesin th end of the game don't make the choices in the game meaningless.

Sure, it easy to shoot a tube, but it's hard to do it because you know that doing it causes a genocide. And picking the choices out side of syntheis is not submutting to the reapers at all. There goal is to force all life undercontrol in one view. Control and destory does not do that.
Add this is not the first time you have a choice to kill your allies to get to a goal. That what causes the moral conflict.
You problem here is that you want to win with out sacrificing your morality or self.

From day one it was advertized that Shepard had many choices to make and not of them easy and he/herhad to make many sacrifices...
 
 

With that starting premise for the series, it's clear the ending choices are hand in hand with that orignal notion.

[ld1449]

I'm not sure what's sadder anymore. Your methodology of arguing or the fact that you believe at least half the crap you type.

[dreman9999]

ld1449 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

snip

ME3 was a great place to start because your choices didn't matter.

We have a survey on the borad that shows ha people who feel there choices don't matter post ec are the minority....Vast minority at that.

You choices do matter. You just don't like the choices you have on hand.

FEELING your choices matter, and HAVING your choices matter are two different things. The first is an emotional response. The second is factual.

It's all EMS.

Your only not feeling your choices don't matter because you don't like the choices on hand.
To you is like being give  3 foods you hate to have but being told to pick. You have choie but you don't want anythin gthat being served.

...Your point?

She's saying your choices don't matter.

You say that the only reason she sees it that way is because she just doesn't like the choices on hand.

To use your ridiculous analogy. No matter which one of the 3 foods I choose. It will not matter in the end because I will still dislike the meal. The fact that my only options consists of 3 foods I detest does not make the choice of food difficult or meaningful. It only expedites the choice of my picking the one that looks least disgusting.

In the end, No matter what I pick though, I leave feeling unsatisfied knowing that the food would have been bad no matter what I ordered.

So again...Your point?

My point is you way too focus on what your getting and not what you goal is, or even the state theme of the game. None of it was for Shepard to have an eay way out. It was never garantteed or promised.

The starting statement form ME1 was lotsof choice, none of them easy and the player making sacrifics.
 
 

We were never stated that we would like the choices given to us. We were given these choice on perpuse to cause moral conflict.
We are not sappose to like th echoices give to us in the end. Are action was not to make sure we got a favorible end, just the the galexy we were protecting had a furture and the reapers were stopped.