6432 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

ld1449 wrote...

I'm not sure what's sadder anymore. Your methodology of arguing or the fact that you believe at least half the crap you type.

So not once in the series you had one morally conflicting choice?

[Snypy]

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet , Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You mean the Hamlet in which you create a character called Hamlet and make all these choices, like whether to stab Polonius or not, and the story changes according to that, advertised with the phrase "Take Denmark back!", and certainly not as "The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark".

Why that's almost as valid as comparing ME with the Teletubbies, but not quite.

As I said before...
So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player? 

You're missing the point entirely. This is not about not having an easy way out of the final decision, this is about not having enough options to choose from. And you can't compare a scripted drama advertised as a tragedy with the the game in which player's decisions are supposed to completely shape the outcome.

Modifié par Snypy, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[SpamBot2000]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sure, it easy to shoot a tube, but it's hard to do it because you know that doing it causes a genocide. And picking the choices out side of syntheis is not submutting to the reapers at all. There goal is to force all life undercontrol in one view. Control and destory does not do that.
Add this is not the first time you have a choice to kill your allies to get to a goal. That what causes the moral conflict.
You problem here is that you want to win with out sacrificing your morality or self.

No, it IS easy because the other ones are so ridiculous. It just feels like crap. What exactly is the point there? Did we learn some great moral lesson there? None that I can see. And even if we did, why would that make ME better than ending on some more inspirational note? "Because it's moar real!!!"? Wow, a more real space mecha-squid story. And why the hell would I need my reality lessons from a video game? I am not a child. I play these things to feel good stuff, not to flagellate myself over the angstiness of everything.

Win a video game without sacrificing my morality or my self? Well, what kinda nut would pay for that, right?

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:47 .

[dreman9999]

Snypy wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet , Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You mean the Hamlet in which you create a character called Hamlet and make all these choices, like whether to stab Polonius or not, and the story changes according to that, advertised with the phrase "Take Denmark back!", and certainly not as "The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark".

Why that's almost as valid as comparing ME with the Teletubbies, but not quite.

As I said before...
So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player? 

You're missing the point entirely. This is not about not having an easy way out of the final decision, this is about not having enough options to choose from. And you can't compare a scripted drama advertised as a tragedy with the the game in which player's decisions are supposed to completely shape the outcome.

It was never stated the player comletely shaped the outcome. That would mean we dicide what choices we have. ME never was like that. We were alway brought to an event were we are given choice to make. We as player react to what given to us not state what should be given to us. We don't pick what choices we face.

And this topic is about an easy way out. Rereadth eopening statement of the op.

[Icinix]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sure, it easy to shoot a tube, but it's hard to do it because you know that doing it causes a genocide. And picking the choices out side of syntheis is not submutting to the reapers at all. There goal is to force all life undercontrol in one view. Control and destory does not do that.
Add this is not the first time you have a choice to kill your allies to get to a goal. That what causes the moral conflict.
You problem here is that you want to win with out sacrificing your morality or self.

No, it IS easy because the other ones are so ridiculous. It just feels like crap. What exactly is the point there? Did we learn some great moral lesson there? None that I can see. And even if we did, why would that make ME better than ending on some more inspirational note? "Because it's moar real!!!"? Wow, a more real space mecha-squid story. And why the hell would I need my reality lessons from a video game? I am not a child. I play these things to feel good stuff, not to flagellate myself over the angstiness of everything.

Win a video game without sacrificing my morality or my self? Well, what kinda nut would pay for that, right?

Yeah - I buy indie games to be confused about morality and feel terrible by the end credits.

I buy AAA $100 to be a big god damn hero.

Or at least get an ending that makes sense.

[dreman9999]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sure, it easy to shoot a tube, but it's hard to do it because you know that doing it causes a genocide. And picking the choices out side of syntheis is not submutting to the reapers at all. There goal is to force all life undercontrol in one view. Control and destory does not do that.
Add this is not the first time you have a choice to kill your allies to get to a goal. That what causes the moral conflict.
You problem here is that you want to win with out sacrificing your morality or self.

No, it IS easy because the other ones are so ridiculous. It just feels like crap. What exactly is the point there? Did we learn some great moral lesson there? None that I can see. And even if we did, why would that make ME better than ending on some more inspirational note? "Because it's moar real!!!"? Wow, a more real space mecha-squid story. And why the hell would I need my reality lessons from a video game? I am not a child. I play these things to feel good stuff, not to flagellate myself over the angstiness of everything.

Win a video game without sacrificing my morality or my self? Well, what kinda nut would pay for that, right?

1. We leave ME with a universe in act, most or all the races intact with a furture for them...How is that not leaving on a bright note?

2. Controlis not 
ridiculous . It just hate it because  you don't like it. It just a mass rewrite. Only synthesis has quetions with it.

3. It your ok with Destory then you have no point to argue for an easy way out.

4.BW games had always had theme which gets th eplaer to quetion themselves and morality...This is what bw is trying to do...
http://penny-arcade....enriching-lives

Modifié par dreman9999, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:59 .

[dreman9999]

Icinix wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sure, it easy to shoot a tube, but it's hard to do it because you know that doing it causes a genocide. And picking the choices out side of syntheis is not submutting to the reapers at all. There goal is to force all life undercontrol in one view. Control and destory does not do that.
Add this is not the first time you have a choice to kill your allies to get to a goal. That what causes the moral conflict.
You problem here is that you want to win with out sacrificing your morality or self.

No, it IS easy because the other ones are so ridiculous. It just feels like crap. What exactly is the point there? Did we learn some great moral lesson there? None that I can see. And even if we did, why would that make ME better than ending on some more inspirational note? "Because it's moar real!!!"? Wow, a more real space mecha-squid story. And why the hell would I need my reality lessons from a video game? I am not a child. I play these things to feel good stuff, not to flagellate myself over the angstiness of everything.

Win a video game without sacrificing my morality or my self? Well, what kinda nut would pay for that, right?

Yeah - I buy indie games to be confused about morality and feel terrible by the end credits.

I buy AAA $100 to be a big god damn hero.

Or at least get an ending that makes sense.

That's not what bw games are bout. Sorry but you miss lead yourself. The fact that a the start of ME we hated all the geth and the end were going so crazy over an end choice because it would kill off the geth points out that  the game is not about being a black and white moral hero.

[Ozida]

Holly-molly, I miss one day on BSN and it's 200 anniversary already!  Congrats, 3DandBeyond, on great thread. It doesn't even have to do anything with IT and it's getting huge, lol...

Ok, back on topic:
Dear pro-enders, we get the dark tone and moral sacrifices, etc. We are not dumb or shallow not to get it. But many of fans feel that technically, there are no choices for them, simply because all three endings are sad. And we can go in circles arguing how we delusion ourselves to believe that Shepard dies in Destroy, and universe is brainwashed in Synthesis and so on... we've been there before.

What you do not seem to understand somehow that there is also a happy tone that was present in all 3 ME games. And that tone was a key to motivation playing this game. People did not want to get depressed or angry because of the video game, they wanted to have fun and feel themselves superheroes (via Shepard, of course). It's like playing, I don't know, a Spiderman. Of course it is not like a real life (people don't climb the walls in real life in case you didn't know), of course boss battles are cheesy, of course it's good old happy end... but! People want to feel good and they play the game. They want to cry and they watch drama. They want to feel smart and they read Kafka. Each media suppose to serve its goal.

ME3 was marketed (at least in my opinion) as "Taking the Earth back". This created a vision of great battle and celebration afterwards as Shepard and the team kick the Reapers off the Earth. Instead I got a boring debate of how should I kill my Shepard for some totally bizarre reason that took me months to wrap my head around (you know, we kill organics so synthetics don't kill organics stuff). Plus I got a very annoying character that seems to be the main reason why my Shepard didn't kick butts and split drinks.
So, once again, yes, we do get the "highly intellectual and artistic" tone of ME3. We were just expecting something different from it.

Modifié par Ozida, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:04 .

[ld1449]

You failed spelling-bee team as a child didn't you dreman?

Modifié par ld1449, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:02 .

[dreman9999]

ld1449 wrote...

You failed spelling-bee team as a child didn't you dreman?

No, don't really care. You not my teacher or boss so making sure my spelling is right is no point ageinst me.

Going on about my spelling has no point agenst what I'm saying.

[Icinix]

dreman9999 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sure, it easy to shoot a tube, but it's hard to do it because you know that doing it causes a genocide. And picking the choices out side of syntheis is not submutting to the reapers at all. There goal is to force all life undercontrol in one view. Control and destory does not do that.
Add this is not the first time you have a choice to kill your allies to get to a goal. That what causes the moral conflict.
You problem here is that you want to win with out sacrificing your morality or self.

No, it IS easy because the other ones are so ridiculous. It just feels like crap. What exactly is the point there? Did we learn some great moral lesson there? None that I can see. And even if we did, why would that make ME better than ending on some more inspirational note? "Because it's moar real!!!"? Wow, a more real space mecha-squid story. And why the hell would I need my reality lessons from a video game? I am not a child. I play these things to feel good stuff, not to flagellate myself over the angstiness of everything.

Win a video game without sacrificing my morality or my self? Well, what kinda nut would pay for that, right?

Yeah - I buy indie games to be confused about morality and feel terrible by the end credits.

I buy AAA $100 to be a big god damn hero.

Or at least get an ending that makes sense.

That's not what bw games are bout. Sorry but you miss lead yourself. The fact that a the start of ME we hated all the geth and the end were going so crazy over an end choice because it would kill off the geth points out that  the game is not about being a black and white moral hero.

Nah, I never hated the Geth.

Took every opportunity in ME1 to tell Tali that they were in the wrong.

Regardless I'm not talking black and white moral endings - I'm talking sensical endings.

[SpamBot2000]

dreman9999 wrote...

[1. We leave ME with a universe in tact, most orall the races intact with a furture for them...How is that not leaving on a bright note?

2. Controlis not rediculuse. It just hat you don't like it. It just a mass rewrite. Only synthesis has a quetion with it.

3. It your ok with Destory then you have no poin to argue for an easy way out.

4.BW games had always had theme which gets th eplaer to quetion themselves and morality...This is what bw is trying to do...
http://penny-arcade....enriching-lives

For crying out loud, how many minutes since you were faulting me for being too wimpy to sacrifice my morals and self. And now you're just gonna say what a 'bright note' that is? What about all that embracing the Abyss, committing genocide? That's how hard the big "moral choice" was for you? 

See, this is what Mass Effect 3 does. It offers this supposedly momentous moral crisis, then winks and says it's all ok, just go for it dude. There's some weird degradation of morality going on there that would take longer than I have ATM to really pick apart and examine. Luckily many, many people have done that before. 

[Snypy]

dreman9999 wrote...

Snypy wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet , Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You mean the Hamlet in which you create a character called Hamlet and make all these choices, like whether to stab Polonius or not, and the story changes according to that, advertised with the phrase "Take Denmark back!", and certainly not as "The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark".

Why that's almost as valid as comparing ME with the Teletubbies, but not quite.

As I said before...
So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player? 

You're missing the point entirely. This is not about not having an easy way out of the final decision, this is about not having enough options to choose from. And you can't compare a scripted drama advertised as a tragedy with the the game in which player's decisions are supposed to completely shape the outcome.

It was never stated the player comletely shaped the outcome. That would mean we dicide what choices we have. ME never was like that. We were alway brought to an event were we are given choice to make. We as player react to what given to us not state what should be given to us. We don't pick what choices we face.

And this topic is about an easy way out. Rereadth eopening statement of the op.

You're wrong, actually. "EXPERIENCE THE BEGINNING, MIDDLE, AND END OF AN EMOTIONAL STORY UNLIKE ANY OTHER, WHERE THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE COMPLETELY SHAPE YOUR EXPERIENCE AND OUTCOME."
And no, it doesn't mean that we decide what choices we will face. The meaning of this statement is that we are supposedly given (enough) options in our decisions throughout the game so that we can completely shape our outcome, which isn't true, because we don't have enough options at the end of the game.

To address your second point. What do you mean with "an easy way out"? Having the possibility to achieve a happy ending isn't necessarily an easy way out of the final decision. In particular because to experience such ending, the player would have to spend countless hours playing multiplayer to raise the galactic readiness, as well as finishing all side quests. In my opinion, all that additional effort makes for a way out of the final decisions, but it's not an easy way.

Modifié par Snypy, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:10 .

[dreman9999]

Ozida wrote...

Holly-molly, I miss one day on BSN and it's 200 anniversary already!  Congrats, 3DandBeyond, on great thread. It doesn't even have to do anything with IT and it's getting huge, lol...

Ok, back on topic:
Dear pro-enders, we get the dark tone and moral sacrifices, etc. We are not dumb or shallow not to get it. But many of fans feel that technically, there are no choices for them, simply because all three endings are sad. And we can go in circles arguing how we delusion ourselves to believe that Shepard dies in Destroy, and universe is brainwashed in Synthesis and so on... we've been there before.

What you do not seem to understand somehow that there is also a happy tone that was present in all 3 ME games. And that tone was a key to motivation playing this game. People did not want to get depressed or angry because of the video game, they wanted to have fun and feel themselves superheroes (via Shepard, of course). It's like playing, I don't know, a Spiderman. Of course it is not like a real life (people don't climb the walls in real life in case you didn't know), of course boss battles are cheesy, of course it's good old happy end... but! People want to feel good and they play the game. They want to cry and they watch drama. They want to feel smart and they read Kafka. Each media suppose to serve its goal.

ME3 was marketed (at least in my opinion) as "Taking the Earth back". This created a vision of great battle and celebration afterwards as Shepard and the team kick the Reapers off the Earth. Instead I got a boring debate of how should I kill my Shepard for some totally bizarre reason that took me months to wrap my head around (you know, we kill organics so synthetics don't kill organics stuff). Plus I got a very annoying character that seems to be the main reason why my Shepard didn't kick butts and split drinks.
So, once again, yes, we do get the "highly intellectual and artistic" tone of ME3. We were just expecting something different from it.

1. There was ads for taking back earth but none of a happy end for Shepard.

2. I understand you don't want a sad end. I get that. A least you give a clear detail to what you want butthe thing is that not what BW wants. That may entire point of my arguement. I 'm not asking becasue it will mess up my game. I'm argueingbecasue I can see what bw wants to do with this ending. No ammount of asking is going to change there minds.
I just trying to getyou guys to consider what they want to do and giving an easy way out counters that.

So really, if you though ME3 was justgoing to be a game with a standard happy ending...Sorry, bw was never planning for that. They didn 't want it to just be a standard game.

Look up the original plan for the ending and you'll see you're never going to get that happy, easy way out ending.

[dreman9999]

Snypy wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Snypy wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet , Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You mean the Hamlet in which you create a character called Hamlet and make all these choices, like whether to stab Polonius or not, and the story changes according to that, advertised with the phrase "Take Denmark back!", and certainly not as "The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark".

Why that's almost as valid as comparing ME with the Teletubbies, but not quite.

As I said before...
So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player? 

You're missing the point entirely. This is not about not having an easy way out of the final decision, this is about not having enough options to choose from. And you can't compare a scripted drama advertised as a tragedy with the the game in which player's decisions are supposed to completely shape the outcome.

It was never stated the player comletely shaped the outcome. That would mean we dicide what choices we have. ME never was like that. We were alway brought to an event were we are given choice to make. We as player react to what given to us not state what should be given to us. We don't pick what choices we face.

And this topic is about an easy way out. Rereadth eopening statement of the op.

You're wrong, actually. "EXPERIENCE THE BEGINNING, MIDDLE, AND END OF AN EMOTIONAL STORY UNLIKE ANY OTHER, WHERE THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE COMPLETELY SHAPE YOUR EXPERIENCE AND OUTCOME."
And no, it doesn't mean that we decide what choices we will face. The meaning of this statement is that we are supposedly given (enough) options in our decisions throughout the game so that we can completely shape our outcome, which isn't true, because we don't have enough options at the end of the game.

To address your second point. What do you mean with "an easy way out"? Having the possibility to achieve a happy ending isn't necessarily an easy way out of the final decision. In particular because to experience such ending, the player would have to spend countless hours playing multiplayer to raise the galactic readiness, as well as finishing all side quests. In my opinion, all that additional effort makes for a way out of the final decisions, but it's not an easy way.

That doesnot mean we get to pick the choices we face. We never did. That mean were don't get an easy way out because we want one. Asking for one is asking to pick the choices you face.

[ld1449]

dreman9999 wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

You failed spelling-bee team as a child didn't you dreman?

No, don't really care. You not my teacher or boss so making sure my spelling is right is no point ageinst me.

Going on about my spelling has no point agenst what I'm saying.

Must be quite a novelty to be on the recieving end of such Dre. Must be tiring being the only one doing such all the time.

[dreman9999]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

[1. We leave ME with a universe in tact, most orall the races intact with a furture for them...How is that not leaving on a bright note?

2. Controlis not rediculuse. It just hat you don't like it. It just a mass rewrite. Only synthesis has a quetion with it.

3. It your ok with Destory then you have no poin to argue for an easy way out.

4.BW games had always had theme which gets th eplaer to quetion themselves and morality...This is what bw is trying to do...
http://penny-arcade....enriching-lives

For crying out loud, how many minutes since you were faulting me for being too wimpy to sacrifice my morals and self. And now you're just gonna say what a 'bright note' that is? What about all that embracing the Abyss, committing genocide? That's how hard the big "moral choice" was for you? 

See, this is what Mass Effect 3 does. It offers this supposedly momentous moral crisis, then winks and says it's all ok, just go for it dude. There's some weird degradation of morality going on there that would take longer than I have ATM to really pick apart and examine. Luckily many, many people have done that before. 

I'm just say the result were not 100% bad.  All the choice have equal good and bad as a result of them. All the choice have bright notes and dark notes. It's not just all dark notes.

This is how moral conflict happens.

[Ozida]

dreman9999 wrote...

1. There was ads for taking back earth but none of a happy end for Shepard.

2. I understand you don't want a sad end. I get that. A least you give a clear detail to what you want butthe thing is that not what BW wants. That may entire point of my arguement. I 'm not asking becasue it will mess up my game. I'm argueingbecasue I can see what bw wants to do with this ending. No ammount of asking is going to change there minds.
I just trying to getyou guys to consider what they want to do and giving an easy way out counters that.

So really, if you though ME3 was justgoing to be a game with a standard happy ending...Sorry, bw was never planning for that. They didn 't want it to just be a standard game.

Look up the original plan for the ending and you'll see you're never going to get that happy, easy way out ending.

1. But why would anyone assume that ALL possible endings will lead to Shepard's death? All of them?
2. Well, BioWare has copyrights for their product, I understand. But really, they are not artists. It is a mistkae to consider them artists. They are the company that produces games. So excuse my language, but I don't give a damn about what they want. It's like saying: I've paid a farmer to grow me appleas and instead he got plumbs. When I asked why he did it, he replied because he wanted so. If ME3 was a painting in a gallery, nobody would dare to critisize it against creator's vision. ME3 is a product that is supposed to be sold. They should've done their research on what players really want better. Instead they: a) leaked original endings in Internet (a huge OOOPS!), tried to fix it with some "surprise!" ideas. Drew leaving didn't help either, but that's on another topic.

[Icinix]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ozida wrote...

Holly-molly, I miss one day on BSN and it's 200 anniversary already!  Congrats, 3DandBeyond, on great thread. It doesn't even have to do anything with IT and it's getting huge, lol...

Ok, back on topic:
Dear pro-enders, we get the dark tone and moral sacrifices, etc. We are not dumb or shallow not to get it. But many of fans feel that technically, there are no choices for them, simply because all three endings are sad. And we can go in circles arguing how we delusion ourselves to believe that Shepard dies in Destroy, and universe is brainwashed in Synthesis and so on... we've been there before.

What you do not seem to understand somehow that there is also a happy tone that was present in all 3 ME games. And that tone was a key to motivation playing this game. People did not want to get depressed or angry because of the video game, they wanted to have fun and feel themselves superheroes (via Shepard, of course). It's like playing, I don't know, a Spiderman. Of course it is not like a real life (people don't climb the walls in real life in case you didn't know), of course boss battles are cheesy, of course it's good old happy end... but! People want to feel good and they play the game. They want to cry and they watch drama. They want to feel smart and they read Kafka. Each media suppose to serve its goal.

ME3 was marketed (at least in my opinion) as "Taking the Earth back". This created a vision of great battle and celebration afterwards as Shepard and the team kick the Reapers off the Earth. Instead I got a boring debate of how should I kill my Shepard for some totally bizarre reason that took me months to wrap my head around (you know, we kill organics so synthetics don't kill organics stuff). Plus I got a very annoying character that seems to be the main reason why my Shepard didn't kick butts and split drinks.
So, once again, yes, we do get the "highly intellectual and artistic" tone of ME3. We were just expecting something different from it.

1. There was ads for taking back earth but none of a happy end for Shepard.

2. I understand you don't want a sad end. I get that. A least you give a clear detail to what you want butthe thing is that not what BW wants. That may entire point of my arguement. I 'm not asking becasue it will mess up my game. I'm argueingbecasue I can see what bw wants to do with this ending. No ammount of asking is going to change there minds.
I just trying to getyou guys to consider what they want to do and giving an easy way out counters that.

So really, if you though ME3 was justgoing to be a game with a standard happy ending...Sorry, bw was never planning for that. They didn 't want it to just be a standard game.

Look up the original plan for the ending and you'll see you're never going to get that happy, easy way out ending.

I know what they were trying to do, but man did they fail. They dropped the ball hard on what they were trying to do - it ended up being a mismash of rubbish that left people scratching their heads as opposed to any sense of challenged morals.

The clear cut decisiveness of peoples decision making shows it didn't work. There are points and decisions in previous BioWare games where gamers were left crippled and unable to make a decision.....the ending didn't affect many people in that way - most people made a clear cut decision pretty easily.

I don't think there is too many people hear who don't realise what they were trying to do - its just that they did a very bad job of doing it.

[dreman9999]

ld1449 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

You failed spelling-bee team as a child didn't you dreman?

No, don't really care. You not my teacher or boss so making sure my spelling is right is no point ageinst me.

Going on about my spelling has no point agenst what I'm saying.

Must be quite a novelty to be on the recieving end of such Dre. Must be tiring being the only one doing such all the time.

[Snypy]

dreman9999 wrote...

Snypy wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Snypy wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sure Hamlet , Romeo and Juliet wanted that happy ending option in there endings, too.

You mean the Hamlet in which you create a character called Hamlet and make all these choices, like whether to stab Polonius or not, and the story changes according to that, advertised with the phrase "Take Denmark back!", and certainly not as "The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark".

Why that's almost as valid as comparing ME with the Teletubbies, but not quite.

As I said before...
So we need an easy way out of the virmire choice, citadel choice, geth choice, collector base choice, and tuchanka choice for them to be good choices given to the player? 

You're missing the point entirely. This is not about not having an easy way out of the final decision, this is about not having enough options to choose from. And you can't compare a scripted drama advertised as a tragedy with the the game in which player's decisions are supposed to completely shape the outcome.

It was never stated the player comletely shaped the outcome. That would mean we dicide what choices we have. ME never was like that. We were alway brought to an event were we are given choice to make. We as player react to what given to us not state what should be given to us. We don't pick what choices we face.

And this topic is about an easy way out. Rereadth eopening statement of the op.

You're wrong, actually. "EXPERIENCE THE BEGINNING, MIDDLE, AND END OF AN EMOTIONAL STORY UNLIKE ANY OTHER, WHERE THE DECISIONS YOU MAKE COMPLETELY SHAPE YOUR EXPERIENCE AND OUTCOME."
And no, it doesn't mean that we decide what choices we will face. The meaning of this statement is that we are supposedly given (enough) options in our decisions throughout the game so that we can completely shape our outcome, which isn't true, because we don't have enough options at the end of the game.

To address your second point. What do you mean with "an easy way out"? Having the possibility to achieve a happy ending isn't necessarily an easy way out of the final decision. In particular because to experience such ending, the player would have to spend countless hours playing multiplayer to raise the galactic readiness, as well as finishing all side quests. In my opinion, all that additional effort makes for a way out of the final decisions, but it's not an easy way.

That doesnot mean we get to pick the choices we face. We never did. That mean were don't get an easy way out because we want one. Asking for one is asking to pick the choices you face.

Man, read your previous post again so that you know what I commented on and then read your answer once again so that you see that you're not making any sense at all. Hopefully, you'll get it. If not, well, there's no point in arguing with someone who doesn't actually know what he's arguing about. I'm out of here for today.

Modifié par Snypy, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:21 .

[dreman9999]

Icinix wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ozida wrote...

Holly-molly, I miss one day on BSN and it's 200 anniversary already!  Congrats, 3DandBeyond, on great thread. It doesn't even have to do anything with IT and it's getting huge, lol...

Ok, back on topic:
Dear pro-enders, we get the dark tone and moral sacrifices, etc. We are not dumb or shallow not to get it. But many of fans feel that technically, there are no choices for them, simply because all three endings are sad. And we can go in circles arguing how we delusion ourselves to believe that Shepard dies in Destroy, and universe is brainwashed in Synthesis and so on... we've been there before.

What you do not seem to understand somehow that there is also a happy tone that was present in all 3 ME games. And that tone was a key to motivation playing this game. People did not want to get depressed or angry because of the video game, they wanted to have fun and feel themselves superheroes (via Shepard, of course). It's like playing, I don't know, a Spiderman. Of course it is not like a real life (people don't climb the walls in real life in case you didn't know), of course boss battles are cheesy, of course it's good old happy end... but! People want to feel good and they play the game. They want to cry and they watch drama. They want to feel smart and they read Kafka. Each media suppose to serve its goal.

ME3 was marketed (at least in my opinion) as "Taking the Earth back". This created a vision of great battle and celebration afterwards as Shepard and the team kick the Reapers off the Earth. Instead I got a boring debate of how should I kill my Shepard for some totally bizarre reason that took me months to wrap my head around (you know, we kill organics so synthetics don't kill organics stuff). Plus I got a very annoying character that seems to be the main reason why my Shepard didn't kick butts and split drinks.
So, once again, yes, we do get the "highly intellectual and artistic" tone of ME3. We were just expecting something different from it.

1. There was ads for taking back earth but none of a happy end for Shepard.

2. I understand you don't want a sad end. I get that. A least you give a clear detail to what you want butthe thing is that not what BW wants. That may entire point of my arguement. I 'm not asking becasue it will mess up my game. I'm argueingbecasue I can see what bw wants to do with this ending. No ammount of asking is going to change there minds.
I just trying to getyou guys to consider what they want to do and giving an easy way out counters that.

So really, if you though ME3 was justgoing to be a game with a standard happy ending...Sorry, bw was never planning for that. They didn 't want it to just be a standard game.

Look up the original plan for the ending and you'll see you're never going to get that happy, easy way out ending.

I know what they were trying to do, but man did they fail. They dropped the ball hard on what they were trying to do - it ended up being a mismash of rubbish that left people scratching their heads as opposed to any sense of challenged morals.

The clear cut decisiveness of peoples decision making shows it didn't work. There are points and decisions in previous BioWare games where gamers were left crippled and unable to make a decision.....the ending didn't affect many people in that way - most people made a clear cut decision pretty easily.

I don't think there is too many people hear who don't realise what they were trying to do - its just that they did a very bad job of doing it.

That what happened per-ec...Post-ec that's no longer a problem

[mjb203]

I strongly suggest everyone in this thread ignore dreman9999. Just try to keep the discussion going amongst ourselves. If we don't respond, he'll give up eventually, and move on to another thread.

[Icinix]

dreman9999 wrote...

Icinix wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ozida wrote...

Holly-molly, I miss one day on BSN and it's 200 anniversary already!  Congrats, 3DandBeyond, on great thread. It doesn't even have to do anything with IT and it's getting huge, lol...

Ok, back on topic:
Dear pro-enders, we get the dark tone and moral sacrifices, etc. We are not dumb or shallow not to get it. But many of fans feel that technically, there are no choices for them, simply because all three endings are sad. And we can go in circles arguing how we delusion ourselves to believe that Shepard dies in Destroy, and universe is brainwashed in Synthesis and so on... we've been there before.

What you do not seem to understand somehow that there is also a happy tone that was present in all 3 ME games. And that tone was a key to motivation playing this game. People did not want to get depressed or angry because of the video game, they wanted to have fun and feel themselves superheroes (via Shepard, of course). It's like playing, I don't know, a Spiderman. Of course it is not like a real life (people don't climb the walls in real life in case you didn't know), of course boss battles are cheesy, of course it's good old happy end... but! People want to feel good and they play the game. They want to cry and they watch drama. They want to feel smart and they read Kafka. Each media suppose to serve its goal.

ME3 was marketed (at least in my opinion) as "Taking the Earth back". This created a vision of great battle and celebration afterwards as Shepard and the team kick the Reapers off the Earth. Instead I got a boring debate of how should I kill my Shepard for some totally bizarre reason that took me months to wrap my head around (you know, we kill organics so synthetics don't kill organics stuff). Plus I got a very annoying character that seems to be the main reason why my Shepard didn't kick butts and split drinks.
So, once again, yes, we do get the "highly intellectual and artistic" tone of ME3. We were just expecting something different from it.

1. There was ads for taking back earth but none of a happy end for Shepard.

2. I understand you don't want a sad end. I get that. A least you give a clear detail to what you want butthe thing is that not what BW wants. That may entire point of my arguement. I 'm not asking becasue it will mess up my game. I'm argueingbecasue I can see what bw wants to do with this ending. No ammount of asking is going to change there minds.
I just trying to getyou guys to consider what they want to do and giving an easy way out counters that.

So really, if you though ME3 was justgoing to be a game with a standard happy ending...Sorry, bw was never planning for that. They didn 't want it to just be a standard game.

Look up the original plan for the ending and you'll see you're never going to get that happy, easy way out ending.

I know what they were trying to do, but man did they fail. They dropped the ball hard on what they were trying to do - it ended up being a mismash of rubbish that left people scratching their heads as opposed to any sense of challenged morals.

The clear cut decisiveness of peoples decision making shows it didn't work. There are points and decisions in previous BioWare games where gamers were left crippled and unable to make a decision.....the ending didn't affect many people in that way - most people made a clear cut decision pretty easily.

I don't think there is too many people hear who don't realise what they were trying to do - its just that they did a very bad job of doing it.

That what happened per-ec...Post-ec that's no longer a problem

No, those problems are still there.

The only thing EC did was take some people away from other decisions and move them into refuse.

[Ozida]

mjb203 wrote...

I strongly suggest everyone in this thread ignore dreman9999. Just try to keep the discussion going amongst ourselves. If we don't respond, he'll give up eventually, and move on to another thread.

Good intentions menat, but... We cannot do that or we are no better than BioWare. Not talking doesn't solve problems.
He/ she has his/ her opinion and has all rights to it. We are just trying to prove him/ her wrong.

Modifié par Ozida, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:24 .