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[RydeCrash]

Personal poster insults quickly lead the topic to an End Of Line. Chris has a different version of the saying; Let’s discuss the topic at hand.

(IMO)

DLC’s for ME1 and ME2 expanded the depth of the Mass Effect story. DLC’s for ME3 are to gain “Clarity to Context.”™

Ryde…

[Jadebaby]

RydeCrash wrote...

Personal poster insults quickly lead the topic to an End Of Line. Chris has a different version of the saying; Let’s discuss the topic at hand.

(IMO)

DLC’s for ME1 and ME2 expanded the depth of the Mass Effect story. DLC’s for ME3 are to gain “Clarity to Context.”™

Ryde…

This is yet another post I wish had been in the PT thread, maybe I should just start looking for information elsewhere on the forums...

DLC for ME1 and ME2 expanded the depth of the Mass Effect story, DLC's for ME3 are to gain Clarity to Context. THEN once we have the PROPER context available, it will be clear that compromising with the starchild (who IS a villian but it not yet realised as one by some) is not a good idea. And ONLY once we have proper context so EVERYONE can see it clear as day, only then will we be able to overcome this obstacle and "stick it to him".

[Jadebaby]

"The neat things about video games is that you can let the player interpret an idea, without having to make a statement on it." - Casey Hudson.


Hypothetically, if the endings weren't so *open-ended* what do people think the statement would be that the game makes?

[3DandBeyond]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

"The neat things about video games is that you can let the player interpret an idea, without having to make a statement on it." - Casey Hudson.


Hypothetically, if the endings weren't so *open-ended* what do people think the statement would be that the game makes?

This gets back to my main point of what is the overriding theme or what are the themes of ME-the things an ending should support.

I think it is important to consider what you need to remember when writing a story.

From Writer's Digest Magazine:
http://www.writersdi...f-novel-endings

Themes are important.  And ME seemed to have 3 main ones, ignored at the end.  Unity, Diversity, Redemption.  A truly open ending should be then left open-if you design it so that one group of people should have to guess what happened, then everyone should.  If you were to follow the themes here-they do come down to the idea of good vs. evil, but Bioware just can't commit to what is good and what is evil. 

I don't see that they needed to intervene and decide that curing the genophage was better than not doing so-you'd have to be a god to presume to know what the end result of all that will be, but you have to use your best judgement as to what the best choice is or what the right thing is, and that's based on your own personal feelings.  For me, any moral question throughout the game was no dilemma.  I knew what was the right thing to do because it was based on all the information that I had.  They were easy questions-the only thing that ever made me pause was thinking it might change something later on in the game, but my decisions didn't make anything worse.

Where the big mistake is made is at the end, in trying to propose that those choices are offering some moral version.  Just about every other choice (every one I can think of) offered you a way to at least try to do something that fit all moral considerations.  If you didn't even care what happened, that choice existed.

Bioware changed the rules at the end and made the choices easy enough for some to make, but impossible for others.  The line changed.  Before it was paragon or renegade.  At the end, it was just make a choice or don't, it's all the same.  Making a choice is just as bad as not making one.  The problem with all this isn't even in the outcome of these choices-it's what you know you must do to make them happen.  The issue with the outcomes of them are that they don't clearly mean something good for the longterm or even for the shortterm.

The endings are open because BW couldn't commit to going with something as canon, other than that ambiguity is canon.  Close it off, make a decision, end the game. 

If the games were closed off, I'd hope it would say that the galaxy grew up, threw off what held them back-reaper tech and reaper advancements, that they all learned to rely on their own ability to do things, and that they believed in unity, diversity, and redemption.  That they could do best when they worked together to solve problems, that they needed to appreciate their differences, and that everyone makes mistakes and can learn to do better.  And that they could make their own way in the future by throwing off an evil that seeks mind control, assimilation, conformism, hatred, mistrust, and fatalism/destiny.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:08 .

[sharkboy421]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

RydeCrash wrote...

Personal poster insults quickly lead the topic to an End Of Line. Chris has a different version of the saying; Let’s discuss the topic at hand.

(IMO)

DLC’s for ME1 and ME2 expanded the depth of the Mass Effect story. DLC’s for ME3 are to gain “Clarity to Context.”™

Ryde…

This is yet another post I wish had been in the PT thread, maybe I should just start looking for information elsewhere on the forums...

DLC for ME1 and ME2 expanded the depth of the Mass Effect story, DLC's for ME3 are to gain Clarity to Context. THEN once we have the PROPER context available, it will be clear that compromising with the starchild (who IS a villian but it not yet realised as one by some) is not a good idea. And ONLY once we have proper context so EVERYONE can see it clear as day, only then will we be able to overcome this obstacle and "stick it to him".

You could be right but even then I have two serious problems with this.

1.  I should not have to buy dlc in order to understand the game.  As you said yourself, the dlc in ME1 and 2 added to the depth of the story and universe and were fantastic, but not buying one would not detract from the overall narrative.  I didn't need to play Overlord to understand ME2 or even ME3.  But if I need to buy ME3 dlc to understand what is going, that is just flat out horrible.  Its one thing to leave some story unfinished in the second game of a trilogy, but not the third.

2.  As 3D said above me, the biggest issue with the ending is that it focuses on a different theme from the rest of the games.  I personally don't need any more clarity on the endings.  I know what is going on.  And I cannot stand them because they are not appropriate for the end of ME.  Leviathan made me furious when they brought up the catalyst.  As cool as the dlc was, its attempt to retcon the catalyst into existence were so blatanly obvious and painful.  I get it bioware, he is here to stay.  I'd rather not here anything more about the ending unless there will be siginificant change, which is almost guarenteed not to happen.

[3DandBeyond]

sharkboy421 wrote...


You could be right but even then I have two serious problems with this.

1.  I should not have to buy dlc in order to understand the game.  As you said yourself, the dlc in ME1 and 2 added to the depth of the story and universe and were fantastic, but not buying one would not detract from the overall narrative.  I didn't need to play Overlord to understand ME2 or even ME3.  But if I need to buy ME3 dlc to understand what is going, that is just flat out horrible.  Its one thing to leave some story unfinished in the second game of a trilogy, but not the third.

2.  As 3D said above me, the biggest issue with the ending is that it focuses on a different theme from the rest of the games.  I personally don't need any more clarity on the endings.  I know what is going on.  And I cannot stand them because they are not appropriate for the end of ME.  Leviathan made me furious when they brought up the catalyst.  As cool as the dlc was, its attempt to retcon the catalyst into existence were so blatanly obvious and painful.  I get it bioware, he is here to stay.  I'd rather not here anything more about the ending unless there will be siginificant change, which is almost guarenteed not to happen.

The only thing with number 1 is this-they are already doing that now.  I know you know that.  If somehow at the end DLC was used to prove once and for all the kid is the culmination of idiotic attempts to fight off the big machines that became reapers, and he was changed greatly by something within DLC, it wouldn't fix the problems of him not being around in ME1.  I have figured out how they could do that, but it's all stuff that was so unnecessary.  The reapers had a leader.  They could have used him to explain they are there just to kill and pillage and eat or whatever. 

[sdinc009]

Here's some news

http://news.softpedi...ed-294864.shtml

[Snypy]

sdinc009 wrote...

Here's some news

http://news.softpedi...ed-294864.shtml

It's definitely fake. The schedule is way too tight. It would be impossible for BioWare to develop all those DLCs in such a short time. 

[BearlyHere]

3DandBeyond wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...


You could be right but even then I have two serious problems with this.

1.  I should not have to buy dlc in order to understand the game.  As you said yourself, the dlc in ME1 and 2 added to the depth of the story and universe and were fantastic, but not buying one would not detract from the overall narrative.  I didn't need to play Overlord to understand ME2 or even ME3.  But if I need to buy ME3 dlc to understand what is going, that is just flat out horrible.  Its one thing to leave some story unfinished in the second game of a trilogy, but not the third.

2.  As 3D said above me, the biggest issue with the ending is that it focuses on a different theme from the rest of the games.  I personally don't need any more clarity on the endings.  I know what is going on.  And I cannot stand them because they are not appropriate for the end of ME.  Leviathan made me furious when they brought up the catalyst.  As cool as the dlc was, its attempt to retcon the catalyst into existence were so blatanly obvious and painful.  I get it bioware, he is here to stay.  I'd rather not here anything more about the ending unless there will be siginificant change, which is almost guarenteed not to happen.

The only thing with number 1 is this-they are already doing that now.  I know you know that.  If somehow at the end DLC was used to prove once and for all the kid is the culmination of idiotic attempts to fight off the big machines that became reapers, and he was changed greatly by something within DLC, it wouldn't fix the problems of him not being around in ME1.  I have figured out how they could do that, but it's all stuff that was so unnecessary.  The reapers had a leader.  They could have used him to explain they are there just to kill and pillage and eat or whatever. 

The problem with #1 too is that it means they did sell us an incomplete game, with a day 1 dlc for another $10 that obviously was culled from the game to increase their profit. It's the worst way to run a business. Sure, they make money up front, but after awile, even the dullest Bubbles will realize they're been had. It's not sustainable, but unfortunately, the current trend seems to go for the fast bucks.

[Snypy]

BearlyHere wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...


You could be right but even then I have two serious problems with this.

1.  I should not have to buy dlc in order to understand the game.  As you said yourself, the dlc in ME1 and 2 added to the depth of the story and universe and were fantastic, but not buying one would not detract from the overall narrative.  I didn't need to play Overlord to understand ME2 or even ME3.  But if I need to buy ME3 dlc to understand what is going, that is just flat out horrible.  Its one thing to leave some story unfinished in the second game of a trilogy, but not the third.

2.  As 3D said above me, the biggest issue with the ending is that it focuses on a different theme from the rest of the games.  I personally don't need any more clarity on the endings.  I know what is going on.  And I cannot stand them because they are not appropriate for the end of ME.  Leviathan made me furious when they brought up the catalyst.  As cool as the dlc was, its attempt to retcon the catalyst into existence were so blatanly obvious and painful.  I get it bioware, he is here to stay.  I'd rather not here anything more about the ending unless there will be siginificant change, which is almost guarenteed not to happen.

The only thing with number 1 is this-they are already doing that now.  I know you know that.  If somehow at the end DLC was used to prove once and for all the kid is the culmination of idiotic attempts to fight off the big machines that became reapers, and he was changed greatly by something within DLC, it wouldn't fix the problems of him not being around in ME1.  I have figured out how they could do that, but it's all stuff that was so unnecessary.  The reapers had a leader.  They could have used him to explain they are there just to kill and pillage and eat or whatever. 

The problem with #1 too is that it means they did sell us an incomplete game, with a day 1 dlc for another $10 that obviously was culled from the game to increase their profit. It's the worst way to run a business. Sure, they make money up front, but after awile, even the dullest Bubbles will realize they're been had. It's not sustainable, but unfortunately, the current trend seems to go for the fast bucks.

From Ashes is optional. It has little effect on the story and no effect on the ending. Therefore, I don't see a problem with it being a Day One DLC. In addition, BioWare developed it after ME3 was finished. (The voice acting and a few other things were done alongside the main game, though.)

Modifié par Snypy, 26 septembre 2012 - 08:26 .

[3DandBeyond]

BearlyHere wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...


You could be right but even then I have two serious problems with this.

1.  I should not have to buy dlc in order to understand the game.  As you said yourself, the dlc in ME1 and 2 added to the depth of the story and universe and were fantastic, but not buying one would not detract from the overall narrative.  I didn't need to play Overlord to understand ME2 or even ME3.  But if I need to buy ME3 dlc to understand what is going, that is just flat out horrible.  Its one thing to leave some story unfinished in the second game of a trilogy, but not the third.

2.  As 3D said above me, the biggest issue with the ending is that it focuses on a different theme from the rest of the games.  I personally don't need any more clarity on the endings.  I know what is going on.  And I cannot stand them because they are not appropriate for the end of ME.  Leviathan made me furious when they brought up the catalyst.  As cool as the dlc was, its attempt to retcon the catalyst into existence were so blatanly obvious and painful.  I get it bioware, he is here to stay.  I'd rather not here anything more about the ending unless there will be siginificant change, which is almost guarenteed not to happen.

The only thing with number 1 is this-they are already doing that now.  I know you know that.  If somehow at the end DLC was used to prove once and for all the kid is the culmination of idiotic attempts to fight off the big machines that became reapers, and he was changed greatly by something within DLC, it wouldn't fix the problems of him not being around in ME1.  I have figured out how they could do that, but it's all stuff that was so unnecessary.  The reapers had a leader.  They could have used him to explain they are there just to kill and pillage and eat or whatever. 

The problem with #1 too is that it means they did sell us an incomplete game, with a day 1 dlc for another $10 that obviously was culled from the game to increase their profit. It's the worst way to run a business. Sure, they make money up front, but after awile, even the dullest Bubbles will realize they're been had. It's not sustainable, but unfortunately, the current trend seems to go for the fast bucks.

Yes, that does indicate they sold an incomplete game and Javik or a prothean was originally supposed to be the catalyst.  The release of the EC already sets the precedent, even if it was free that the game was not finished.  And, there's never been any concern or consideration for the people that have no internet and that couldn't even get that.  So, they never even got the torso ending unless they could figure out some way to add on content without any online capability.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 septembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[ld1449]

Snypy wrote...

BearlyHere wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...


You could be right but even then I have two serious problems with this.

1.  I should not have to buy dlc in order to understand the game.  As you said yourself, the dlc in ME1 and 2 added to the depth of the story and universe and were fantastic, but not buying one would not detract from the overall narrative.  I didn't need to play Overlord to understand ME2 or even ME3.  But if I need to buy ME3 dlc to understand what is going, that is just flat out horrible.  Its one thing to leave some story unfinished in the second game of a trilogy, but not the third.

2.  As 3D said above me, the biggest issue with the ending is that it focuses on a different theme from the rest of the games.  I personally don't need any more clarity on the endings.  I know what is going on.  And I cannot stand them because they are not appropriate for the end of ME.  Leviathan made me furious when they brought up the catalyst.  As cool as the dlc was, its attempt to retcon the catalyst into existence were so blatanly obvious and painful.  I get it bioware, he is here to stay.  I'd rather not here anything more about the ending unless there will be siginificant change, which is almost guarenteed not to happen.

The only thing with number 1 is this-they are already doing that now.  I know you know that.  If somehow at the end DLC was used to prove once and for all the kid is the culmination of idiotic attempts to fight off the big machines that became reapers, and he was changed greatly by something within DLC, it wouldn't fix the problems of him not being around in ME1.  I have figured out how they could do that, but it's all stuff that was so unnecessary.  The reapers had a leader.  They could have used him to explain they are there just to kill and pillage and eat or whatever. 

The problem with #1 too is that it means they did sell us an incomplete game, with a day 1 dlc for another $10 that obviously was culled from the game to increase their profit. It's the worst way to run a business. Sure, they make money up front, but after awile, even the dullest Bubbles will realize they're been had. It's not sustainable, but unfortunately, the current trend seems to go for the fast bucks.

From Ashes is optional. It has little effect on the story and no effect on the ending. Therefore, I don't see a problem with it being a Day One DLC. In addition, BioWare developed it after ME3 was finished. (The voice acting and a few other things were done alongside the main game, though.)

Uhhhh...Nooooo. Javik was cut from the game. Blatantly really.

In the original script Javik WAS the Catalyst. So I doubt they developed the entire game and put in the "Catalyst" for last. They developed him then they changed the script and realised they could make a quick buck by cutting out a character everyone wanted.

Could you immagine James Vega or Edi selling like Javik? Because that's the only two options that they had considering that everyone else was already on your squad beforehand.

[3DandBeyond]

ld1449 wrote...


Uhhhh...Nooooo. Javik was cut from the game. Blatantly really.

In the original script Javik WAS the Catalyst. So I doubt they developed the entire game and put in the "Catalyst" for last. They developed him then they changed the script and realised they could make a quick buck by cutting out a character everyone wanted.

Could you immagine James Vega or Edi selling like Javik? Because that's the only two options that they had considering that everyone else was already on your squad beforehand.

Even if Javik had not been the catalyst (which I too remember that he was), can you imagine playing the game without him?  I mean, everything there was prothean this, prothean that.  So, sure let's cut the only prothean from the game.

They did something similar with LotSB.  Liara was supposed to be part of the crew and was supposed to have a big role in ME2 with a much bigger story.  I'm not sure whether it was supposed to just be about the Shadow Broker or not, but they ripped the whole thing out of the game.

You know it all really starts to see so disjointed.  The only LI you can have through all 3 games is Liara-and if you want your fish fed, you have to cheat on whatever LI you have, or if you have Kaidan or Ashley, you can't romance them in ME2.  So, the only way to get a paramour achievement for all 3 games is to cheat on a teammate with a teammate.  I don't think that's funny.  And I don't have that achievement for ME2.

[Xellith]

I nail ashley in ME1 because I figure I can knock some sense into her and remove that racism she has. ME2 and 3 its Tali all the way

Modifié par Xellith, 26 septembre 2012 - 10:33 .

[Ozida]

3DandBeyond wrote...

You know it all really starts to see so disjointed.  The only LI you can have through all 3 games is Liara-and if you want your fish fed, you have to cheat on whatever LI you have, or if you have Kaidan or Ashley, you can't romance them in ME2.  So, the only way to get a paramour achievement for all 3 games is to cheat on a teammate with a teammate.  I don't think that's funny.  And I don't have that achievement for ME2.

Did they ever explain why that fish was so important? I actually never cared to keep it alive in ME2.

[Xellith]

Ozida wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

You know it all really starts to see so disjointed.  The only LI you can have through all 3 games is Liara-and if you want your fish fed, you have to cheat on whatever LI you have, or if you have Kaidan or Ashley, you can't romance them in ME2.  So, the only way to get a paramour achievement for all 3 games is to cheat on a teammate with a teammate.  I don't think that's funny.  And I don't have that achievement for ME2.

Did they ever explain why that fish was so important? I actually never cared to keep it alive in ME2.

That fish's ancestors are the ones that evolve into the people in the stargazer scene in the refuse ending!

[3DandBeyond]

Ozida wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

You know it all really starts to see so disjointed.  The only LI you can have through all 3 games is Liara-and if you want your fish fed, you have to cheat on whatever LI you have, or if you have Kaidan or Ashley, you can't romance them in ME2.  So, the only way to get a paramour achievement for all 3 games is to cheat on a teammate with a teammate.  I don't think that's funny.  And I don't have that achievement for ME2.

Did they ever explain why that fish was so important? I actually never cared to keep it alive in ME2.

I know if you replay ME3 with the Prejak Paddle Fish you get an intel bonus you can use for a bump to weapon or biotic powers-IIRC.

[3DandBeyond]

Xellith wrote...

Ozida wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

You know it all really starts to see so disjointed.  The only LI you can have through all 3 games is Liara-and if you want your fish fed, you have to cheat on whatever LI you have, or if you have Kaidan or Ashley, you can't romance them in ME2.  So, the only way to get a paramour achievement for all 3 games is to cheat on a teammate with a teammate.  I don't think that's funny.  And I don't have that achievement for ME2.

Did they ever explain why that fish was so important? I actually never cared to keep it alive in ME2.

That fish's ancestors are the ones that evolve into the people in the stargazer scene in the refuse ending!

Yes that probably is what happens.  LOL.

[Lunch Box1912]

Ozida wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

You know it all really starts to see so disjointed.  The only LI you can have through all 3 games is Liara-and if you want your fish fed, you have to cheat on whatever LI you have, or if you have Kaidan or Ashley, you can't romance them in ME2.  So, the only way to get a paramour achievement for all 3 games is to cheat on a teammate with a teammate.  I don't think that's funny.  And I don't have that achievement for ME2.

Did they ever explain why that fish was so important? I actually never cared to keep it alive in ME2.

What about Hammy the space hamster?

Modifié par Lunch Box1912, 26 septembre 2012 - 11:53 .

[Lunch Box1912]

They gave you the auto feeder in ME3 so you could almost forget all about them.... Apparently Hammy never had to be fed EVER?

[GarvakD]

I feel that if any post-DLC is to be released, it will be several months from now considering the rate they are putting out new DLC. Through all this DLC you would acquire more assets, readiness, better chances at defeating reapers conventionally, and a more completed Crucible with the resources you gather. The latter two could create two different choices such as that successful refuse or some Destroy that doesn't have to use the relays (and ultimately destroy them) and/or destroy all synthetic life and just focus on Reapers.

And whats this about that fish? It gives you intel?

[GarvakD]

Snypy wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

Here's some news

http://news.softpedi...ed-294864.shtml

It's definitely fake. The schedule is way too tight. It would be impossible for BioWare to develop all those DLCs in such a short time. 

I have to agree there.  But maybe the schedule is not accurate?  Hell, if this list is valid, I'm a damned happy person.  It has all the things I desire.  And that last DLC...mmmmm.  Perfect list.
Bioware, GET ON IT!  Take all my money!  I'll even pay good money for those theoretical free DLCs listed.  You get money and an ecstatically happy fanbase!  (P.S. that artistic integrity thing is still there for those who don't get the DLC)  

Modifié par GarvakD, 27 septembre 2012 - 02:55 .

[Lunch Box1912]

GarvakD wrote...

Snypy wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

Here's some news

http://news.softpedi...ed-294864.shtml

It's definitely fake. The schedule is way too tight. It would be impossible for BioWare to develop all those DLCs in such a short time. 

I have to agree there.  But maybe the schedule is not accurate?  Hell, if this list is valid, I'm a damned happy person.  It has all the things I desire.  And that last DLC...mmmmm.  Perfect list.
Bioware, GET ON IT!  Take all my money!  I'll even pay good money for those theoretical free DLCs listed.  You get money and an ecstatically happy fanbase!  (P.S. that artistic integrity thing is still there for those who don't get the DLC)  

I Iike your thinking, quick lets throw our wallets at them!

[3DandBeyond]

Good words that due to a bad game ending, I basically wish to never hear again:
Speculation
Art
Integrity
Balance
Canon
Canon
Canon
Choices
Conflict
Logic
Ascension
Harvest
Reapers
Impossible
Imagination
Reunion
Torso

Ok, I fully expect to hear these words in other usages, but this game and its association with them, has made them far less desirable for me and yet some of them are damn fine words. I will keep repeating 3 words however that have never lost their luster because they are perhaps the finest things these games had to offer as themes. It is just awful that they were not given more attention at the end.

Unity, diversity, and redemption. There may be more things, well in fact there was one other thing these games really were about-love. Yeah, that's cheesy, well we could all use a little bit of it today, cheesiness and love. Why would Shepard endure all of that stuff if not for love? Some kind of love, for friends or an LI, or just people in general. I think some people are so jaded that they can't wish for better things at the end. And that's ok for them. But, for me, no way. I'll never be that jaded.

[GarvakD]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

GarvakD wrote...

Snypy wrote...

sdinc009 wrote...

Here's some news

http://news.softpedi...ed-294864.shtml

It's definitely fake. The schedule is way too tight. It would be impossible for BioWare to develop all those DLCs in such a short time. 

I have to agree there.  But maybe the schedule is not accurate?  Hell, if this list is valid, I'm a damned happy person.  It has all the things I desire.  And that last DLC...mmmmm.  Perfect list.
Bioware, GET ON IT!  Take all my money!  I'll even pay good money for those theoretical free DLCs listed.  You get money and an ecstatically happy fanbase!  (P.S. that artistic integrity thing is still there for those who don't get the DLC)  

I Iike your thinking, quick lets throw our wallets at them!

Not...just...yet...*tucks wallet to chest*  I'll wait for them to do this, but just want to be prepared
*shoves 100$ bills and gold into wallet*