6432 réponses à ce sujet

[MegaSovereign]

Bester76 wrote...

Seival wrote...

One of the greatest things about the endings is that they force you to think. Like a great sci-fi book.

Oh f*ck me, not this appeal to intelligence BS again......

Calm down.

[Redbelle]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

Here's the problem. We like certainty. Flip a coin. Heads or tails? Hold your hand over the coin. Keep it there. The outcome is uncertain. The hand has not been removed to observe the result.

Shepard has become something of a Schrodinger's cat. No definitive answer is available or forthcoming and so naturally ppl will continue to probe the question.

Some like everything explained completley and some do not. I do not as for example.

I used an example in the past, Shepards fate equals closure, him going on to having children equals closure, his children have children equals closure, this can continue on forever but amounts to the same result. All equal some form of closure at some level. The current level of closure is the right level of it for me.

You right about that. But wrong at the same time. I'll explain.

I have in front of me the manuscript for a book about Joe. Joe has a life changing, soul destroying aventure and lives, he then walks off into the sunset. The end.

That, in a nut shell is the bare bones of any story. Introduce character. Character does stuff relating to a quest. Character resolves quest. Story told. Job done.

What you are refering to in the childrens childrens  children example are sequels. Or, if you've read Harry Potter and read the end of that, a general knowledge that the hero has gone from a dark place to a lighter happier place.

There is no need to go from generation to generation to generation. No publisher would take a book with an ending like that as it is not concise.

[Dragoonlordz]

Redbelle wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Some like everything explained completley and some do not. I do not as for example.

But regardless of not wanting something explained the raw data should still provide clues as to the likelihood of certain outcomes. If that information had been available much of the debate surrounding those endings would have been internally directed at the forums of ppl arguing about what actually happened.

Instead the debate ended up being targeted at BW as the lack of substantially different outcomes and subsequent information to form an opinion basesd on player choice made ppl go............. "What"?

I prefer to think of it as debating what happens, people giving their own interpretations. It can be discussed civilly most of the time with only exception being those who cannot control their emotional status discussing such topics. For example my thread about why I liked the original endings contained a vast amount of reasonable discussion on different interpretations (excluding some who could not control themselves now and again).

There was enough raw data for me to have such interpretations, that is the beauty of endings like this where you have some freedom to believe the outcome you want. Open endings or open to interpretation type ones are not done often and I find it refreshing when does happen due to this. It makes me use my imagination and mind.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 septembre 2012 - 09:56 .

[Redbelle]

Bester76 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

Seival wrote...

One of the greatest things about the endings is that they force you to think. Like a great sci-fi book.

Oh f*ck me, not this appeal to intelligence BS again......

Have you read Dune and if so what was the msg's the book attempted to deliver through it;s subject matter?

Giant worms are cool.

Oh heck yeah, their awesome and can make you trip galaxies............ But sry, the question was directed at Seival. The reason I ask is that if Sci-Fi forces us to think I'd like to know what Seival thought of Dune.

[AresKeith]

Redbelle wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

Seival wrote...

One of the greatest things about the endings is that they force you to think. Like a great sci-fi book.

Oh f*ck me, not this appeal to intelligence BS again......

Have you read Dune and if so what was the msg's the book attempted to deliver through it;s subject matter?

Giant worms are cool.

Oh heck yeah, their awesome and can make you trip galaxies............ But sry, the question was directed at Seival. The reason I ask is that if Sci-Fi forces us to think I'd like to know what Seival thought of Dune.

thats if he read Dune

[CaIIisto]

Redbelle wrote...

Oh heck yeah, their awesome and can make you trip galaxies............ But sry, the question was directed at Seival. The reason I ask is that if Sci-Fi forces us to think I'd like to know what Seival thought of Dune.

I would imagine that someone's now off utilising Google......

[TheCinC]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Casey Hudson has said it. Mac Walters has said it. I have sadi it. I will say it again. The Extended Cut is the "end of the endings". While there is more DLC coming for both Single & Multiplay and that DLC may have some effect on the endings (such as the new dialog with teh Catalyst from Leviathan), there are no mote endings for Mass Effect 3 planned.

You can continue to hope and you can believe what I say or not. It is true that things do change given enough time (This is not lying, plans do change. Take for example that ME1 will now be coming to the PS3 as an example). That said the team is not currently working on new/more endings and has no plan to start. We are working on ME3 DLC and teh new Mass Effect game, not new endings.

Well, I support this petition, or whatever it is, so I am sorry to hear Bioware is still stuck on 'no new endings', but thanks for at least giving a response.

Also, I can't help but be hopeful that you're at least realistic enough to acknowlegde plans may change. Boy, do I ever hope they do.. I really hope Bioware will at some point finish off ME3 in a way that matches what many of us had expected. Or give us the tools to mod it ourselves. *hint hint*

Let me also restate that I have no interest in paid DLC, not for MP or SP, unless and until the endings are changed OR we get the tools to fix it ourselves. Not just because I dislike the ending we have, not just to send the only message that I can, but mostly because it feels pointless, without a meaningful ending. Shepards fate, unseen, Shepard's mission, unfulfilled. Yeah, that just doesn't work for me. What is the point of Leviathan if it doesn't affect the ending in any tangible way? ME4, depending on where you guys are going with that, might change that position, but I am not holding my breath. I am invested in my Shepard's, not in whichever new character we get to play in a prequel, sequel or parallel timeline. Also, wherewill the new story be headed? I might be better off waiting to see where it goes before deciding to buy a new ME game. I don't want a repeat of what happened with ME3.

That being said, I do enjoy ME1, ME2 AND ME3, a lot, SP as well as MP. Right up until the moment my Shepards meet Marauder Shields and he puts them out of their misery. Credits for that to all who contributed.

[hiraeth]

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

from merriam-webster: "am*big*u*ous: (a) doubtful or uncertain, especially from obscurity or indistinctness, ( capable of being understood in TWO or more possible senses or ways" [all caps added for emphasis]

[Darth_Atreyu]

It's amazing how many people there are around here who are out there.
Most of these complaints are a product of circular reasoning and always assuming the worst.
It feels like some people had already decided that they would not like "certain" things now there are stuck on autopilot even after the excellent extended cut.

[Ozida]

Guys, girls, if I may interfere… we actually have been spoken to! At last, it is a dialogue! What a happy day. *wipes out a tear*. Now, going on, let’s be respectful to the first one to speak to fans.

Although, I might say it is a bit confusing message that we get, as some say that endings are open to interpretations and others claim that they are straight forward. I feel like a monkey jumping from one tree to another and some final clarifications on the subject would be definitely appreciated.

Modifié par Ozida, 28 septembre 2012 - 10:10 .

[Seival]

Redbelle wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

Seival wrote...

One of the greatest things about the endings is that they force you to think. Like a great sci-fi book.

Oh f*ck me, not this appeal to intelligence BS again......

Have you read Dune and if so what was the msg's the book attempted to deliver through it;s subject matter?

I didn't read Dune, but I like books like Deathworld.

If the old Dune movie was close to the book, then I'm afraid Dune is not sci-fi, but just a fantasy with starships.

Modifié par Seival, 28 septembre 2012 - 10:17 .

[AresKeith]

Seival wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Have you read Dune and if so what was the msg's the book attempted to deliver through it;s subject matter?

I didn't read Dune, but I like books like Deathworld.

If the old Dune movie was close the the book, then I'm afraid Dune is not sci-fi, but just a fantasy with starships.

wow, so much wrong with this comment I bolded

[GarvakD]

Bester76 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

Well, as I said, I'll stick it out until the DLC wraps, and make a call when the details for ME4 are announced.

he did say the DLC may have effects on the endings, which was also part of the OP and a few of our suggestions

True, but I doubt that will impact much on the closure issue. 

I can live with the 'destroy' ending, but I get no sense of closure from it, at least not for the character I've been directing for the past 5 years.

As much as ME3 is the end of the Reaper story, we're also told that it's the end of Shepard's arc. To have the character's final scene the way it is in 'destroy', and left to head canon, no.  It leaves me with absolutely zero interest in becoming emotionally invested in any further games as what's the point.

[CaIIisto]

Seival wrote...

If the old Dune movie was close to the book, then I'm afraid Dune is not sci-fi, but just a fantasy with starships.

Yeah, you can stop there. We know all we need to know. 

[Seival]

Hmm... By the way. BioWare could probably make the great new IP based on Deathworld.

[garf]

Honestly, I don't care anymore about: A) bioware's plans. the meaning of a particular ending C) whose fan rage was the worst D) weather or not the Dr's left EA because of fan negativity E) conventional or unconventional victory possibilities

None of that matters. I've written bioware off until such a time as it comes to my attention through sources I trust (cough NOT IGN cough) that they're making games worth playing again. You can debate the items above from A to E and beyond but for me it's this simple:

Bioware games convinced me to buy my first console and drove the specs for EVERY computer purchase I made in the last ten years.

Bioware is now never seeing another red cent of money unless they notice me buying cupcakes or donating to kickstarter or whatever.

That change didn't happen by some fickle accident. Bioware WORKED at it.

A reversal will likewise require work.

[Redbelle]

Seival wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

Seival wrote...

One of the greatest things about the endings is that they force you to think. Like a great sci-fi book.

Oh f*ck me, not this appeal to intelligence BS again......

Have you read Dune and if so what was the msg's the book attempted to deliver through it;s subject matter?

I didn't read Dune, but I like books like Deathworld.

If the old Dune movie was close to the book, then I'm afraid Dune is not sci-fi, but just a fantasy with starships.

Sci-Fi and fantasy do seem to have a foothold within each other. But Dune is very much Sci-Fi.

I suggest you read it as the first book is loosely based on the idea that the Spice melange is oil and that the Fremen are the repressed natives who were brutallised by the Harkonan (evil dudes with slaves who they could pull their heart out with plug cords........ did I mention evil)? To be given relief when the emperor pulled the Harkonan's out and replaced them with the noble Atredeis who are ultimately doomed from the start. Save the young son of the Atreides Duke who is the Kwisatch............ Look lets just say he has super powers that aren't really that super till he gets a hit of Melange.

But the books contain another theme. Beware hero's. Throughout the books of Dune a theme runs that essentially says great men can do terrible things for a good cause.

[Redbelle]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Some like everything explained completley and some do not. I do not as for example.

But regardless of not wanting something explained the raw data should still provide clues as to the likelihood of certain outcomes. If that information had been available much of the debate surrounding those endings would have been internally directed at the forums of ppl arguing about what actually happened.

Instead the debate ended up being targeted at BW as the lack of substantially different outcomes and subsequent information to form an opinion basesd on player choice made ppl go............. "What"?

I prefer to think of it as debating what happens, people giving their own interpretations. It can be discussed civilly most of the time with only exception being those who cannot control their emotional status discussing such topics. For example my thread about why I liked the original endings contained a vast amount of reasonable discussion on different interpretations (excluding some who could not control themselves now and again).

There was enough raw data for me to have such interpretations, that is the beauty of endings like this where you have some freedom to believe the outcome you want. Open endings or open to interpretation type ones are not done often and I find it refreshing when does happen due to this. It makes me use my imagination and mind.

But as data is constantly shifted and interpretations are altered as new viewpoints are diagnosed according to whatever parameters were set before hand........... we eventually start to discard arguments and interpretations to zero in on what is.............. I'm tentatively labeling this next word by the way.............. Truth.

Simply put, constant scrutiny should, at some point, branch off into smaller and smalled pathways so that we have fewer avenues of investigation. Shepard dying is a cert. BW want him dead. His death is all but assured, either through touching the spark igniters on ol Catalyst's big ol Shepa-synthesis BBQ ( we can argue if the Shreapers are Shepard but Cat seems to indicate a no on that front), throwing himself into the energy beam, or now, shooting Catalyst and making nothing happen...............

And then we get to destroy............. Lets rehash. Shepard is dead, so far, 3 times out of four. The forth time........... we just don't know. The breathing body is not shown to be Shepard. only that it is an N7 armoured figure. We just don't know.

But the thing is............ Shepard is a soldier......... He's not some magic believing born again houdini. And here's where the narration goes completely loopy. Shepard is a beat down with your fists kinda guy. If he's been gutshot he'll crawl over to the guy who did it trailing entrails and knaw his ankle off to bring him down to his level for some smack down. This is just my way of saying that as a lead character in a story, the man is not allowed to quit unless the player makes a hash of it. making a hash of it leads to death, or game over. No more character, no more story............ Gandalf on the screen waving his staff "YOU SHALL NOT PAAAAASS"!!!

So you'll understand my interpretation that losing the main character is but one signal that something has gone drastically wrong with a playthrough. And I'm not just basing this on ME. Other games like FFX saw the loss of Tidus. It was only Yuna's epilogue that showed the world being rebuilt and her plea to remember those fallen before Sin that made it poigniant.

But if the new ECLDC endings are to be poigniant then Shepard has to be absolutely gone. As dead as a Dodo. Yet in that one scene in destroy?................. Now I don't know what to think. And if I play the other endings then the questions grow more numerous and it's at that point that ME fails in the rule of good story telling...............

Provide resolution!

p.s. For a series that said I'd be fighting an epic battle with Reapers I don't count the 2 I downed as an epic confrontation................ And one of those had a big assist from a worm.......... bit like Dune

Have to face it. Until I tear out Harbinger's Eezo core with Shepards teeth the war of the Reapers was fought against their mangled huskisized footsoldiers. I know it's not possible to beat every Reaper with just a Shep squad. But the way around this is to put Shepard in front of the biggest, nastiest Reaper ever created with a fist full of cains and see who comes out on top. Because if it's Shepard then he could down any Reaper out there. That s a satisfying resolution

Modifié par Redbelle, 28 septembre 2012 - 10:42 .

[Iakus]

ShepnTali wrote...

Dead Shepard is dead, live Shepard is either or. That's frustrating. The dead Shepards have their day in the sun with low ems.

This This! THIS! THIS!!!!!!

[Essalor]

Well i suppose there's little need in getting any more Single Player DLC then and hoping to get a proper ending.

At this point Diablo 3 team listens more to players' pleas than Bioware. Such a let down.

[GarvakD]

I just imagine my Shepard(s) toughing it out (within limits.  A man can only go so long without water and food.  Or bleeding out) to witness the fruits of his labor. The destruction of Reapers. Galactic peace Reunite with crew and LI. I'm not letting my friends live without me. I think they'd miss me. A boatload of people owe me drinks. I promised Tali a house (her father already let her down, horribly...and I'm better). And I do enjoy living.

"And if the day ever comes when you're tempted to sell me out, remember this: whatever their price, I'll beat it. I like living."

You can expect to see me in this thread for another several months despite naysayers.  Maybe their right.  Maybe we can't win this.  But we'll fight regardless.
Because submission is not preferable to extinction.

Modifié par GarvakD, 28 septembre 2012 - 11:05 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Redbelle wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Some like everything explained completley and some do not. I do not as for example.

But regardless of not wanting something explained the raw data should still provide clues as to the likelihood of certain outcomes. If that information had been available much of the debate surrounding those endings would have been internally directed at the forums of ppl arguing about what actually happened.

Instead the debate ended up being targeted at BW as the lack of substantially different outcomes and subsequent information to form an opinion basesd on player choice made ppl go............. "What"?

I prefer to think of it as debating what happens, people giving their own interpretations. It can be discussed civilly most of the time with only exception being those who cannot control their emotional status discussing such topics. For example my thread about why I liked the original endings contained a vast amount of reasonable discussion on different interpretations (excluding some who could not control themselves now and again).

There was enough raw data for me to have such interpretations, that is the beauty of endings like this where you have some freedom to believe the outcome you want. Open endings or open to interpretation type ones are not done often and I find it refreshing when does happen due to this. It makes me use my imagination and mind.

But as data is constantly shifted and interpretations are altered as new viewpoints are diagnosed according to whatever parameters were set before hand........... we eventually start to discard arguments and interpretations to zero in on what is.............. I'm tentatively labeling this next word by the way.............. Truth.

Simply put, constant scrutiny should, at some point, branch off into smaller and smalled pathways so that we have fewer avenues of investigation. Shepard dying is a cert. BW want him dead. His death is all but assured, either through touching the spark igniters on ol Catalyst's big ol Shepa-synthesis BBQ ( we can argue if the Shreapers are Shepard but Cat seems to indicate a no on that front), throwing himself into the energy beam, or now, shooting Catalyst and making nothing happen...............

And then we get to destroy............. Lets rehash. Shepard is dead, so far, 3 times out of four. The forth time........... we just don't know. The breathing body is not shown to be Shepard. only that it is an N7 armoured figure. We just don't know.

But the thing is............ Shepard is a soldier......... He's not some magic believing born again houdini. And here's where the narration goes completely loopy. Shepard is a beat down with your fists kinda guy. If he's been gutshot he'll crawl over to the guy who did it trailing entrails and knaw his ankle off to bring him down to his level for some smack down. This is just my way of saying that as a lead character in a story, the man is not allowed to quit unless the player makes a hash of it. making a hash of it leads to death, or game over. No more character, no more story............ Gandalf on the screen waving his staff "YOU SHALL NOT PAAAAASS"!!!

So you'll understand my interpretation that losing the main character is but one signal that something has gone drastically wrong with a playthrough. And I'm not just basing this on ME. Other games like FFX saw the loss of Tidus. It was only Yuna's epilogue that showed the world being rebuilt and her plea to remember those fallen before Sin that made it poigniant.

But if the new ECLDC endings are to be poigniant then Shepard has to be absolutely gone. As dead as a Dodo. Yet in that one scene in destroy?................. Now I don't know what to think. And if I play the other endings then the questions grow more numerous and it's at that point that ME fails in the rule of good story telling...............

Provide resolution!

p.s. For a series that said I'd be fighting an epic battle with Reapers I don't count the 2 I downed as an epic confrontation................ And one of those had a big assist from a worm.......... bit like Dune

Have to face it. Until I tear out Harbinger's Eezo core with Shepards teeth the war of the Reapers was fought against their mangled huskisized footsoldiers. I know it's not possible to beat every Reaper with just a Shep squad. But the way around this is to put Shepard in front of the biggest, nastiest Reaper ever created with a fist full of cains and see who comes out on top. Because if it's Shepard then he could down any Reaper out there. That s a satisfying resolution

Satisfaction is subjective. Cannot satisfy everyone. There is always a line to be drawn in the sand between trying to constantly please group A who are unhappy with something or move onwards and start producing content to please group B. At a certain stage the cost and value of trying to please that first group yet again over and over becomes detrimental to both those elements in comparrison to moving onward with group B. They (Bioware) have drawn that line in the sand (at this stage).

EC was to please the group A (even if did not please them all) and now they are working on group B. Going by Chris's statement in the other thread about Leviathan being the highest selling DLC, I would say it is far more profitable at this stage to concentrate on that second group B. There are other factors at play but the most basic principle of it suffices. As said before there is a limited time frame between the DLC for each title prior to the next game being developed. Where they spend their time and money within that time frame they think is most profitable is up to them and they appear to have made that decision of which I am not upset about since I belong to group B.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 28 septembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[AresKeith]

GarvakD wrote...

I just imagine my Shepard(s) toughing it out (within limits.  A man can only go so long without water and food.  Or bleeding out) to witness the fruits of his labor. The destruction of Reapers. Galactic peace Reunite with crew and LI. I'm not letting my friends live without me. I think they'd miss me. A boatload of people owe me drinks. I promised Tali a house. And I do enjoy living.

"And if the day ever comes when you're tempted to sell me out, remember this: whatever their price, I'll beat it. I like living."

You can expect to see me in this thread for another several months.
Because submission is not preferable to extinction.

QFT lol

[Alienboy411676]

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

I think the Refuse ending is pretty open-ended and ambiguous.  There's absolutely no clue whatsoever what happens to Sheperd after she refuses.  She could die, or she could drive the Reapers off earth and then lose it again eventually for good, or earth could be utterly destroyed and she escapes from the battle on the Normandy and they go into hiding for the rest of the harvest, or.......there's pretty much a million different things that could happen to Sheperd after the refusal, and on top of that, I really don't think it's necessarily clear who defeated the Reapers.  It looks like the next cycle does, but there's no definitive proof of that.  There can be a couple of different interpretations of the dialogue between that chick and the kid at the end, and someone playing the time capsule that Liara created does not proove it was found by a next cycle.  Yes Liara seems to suggest that Sheperd's cycle lost, but Liara would have had to have made that recording BEFORE the Reapers wiped out the cycle, and there's no telling what could have happened between her making that recording and the end of the cycle/harvest.  So as far as Refuse ending goes, there is no definitive ending there, NOTHING is known about what happens with %100 certainty, other than the Reapers are apparently destroyed somehow eventually.  Don't think it gets more open-ended and ambiguous than an ending that tells you the Reapers were defeated buy you have no idea when, how, or even by who.

[Rafficus III]

Chris Priestly wrote...

hornedfrog87 wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

It is true that things do change given enough time (This is not lying, plans do change. 

So we have a chance after all!

Sure. It only took 6 years for Playstation players to get ME1.

Optimism has to count for something. New ending options and outcomes would keep the game still relatively fresh, without having us deviate from a majority of our in-game choices and playstyles (like simply switching from Paragon to Renegade, or FemShep to BroShep). It'd be a good way to keep us engaged in SP ME3 until our next fix, new ME or DA3, comes along. Anyways, I appreciate the response. Have a good day, Chris.