6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Essalor]

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

So if there are 2 equivalently valid interpretations of one thing isn't that thing by definition ambiguous? you want to make Shepard dead in all 3 endings then remove the scene: that'd be definitive. Alternatively: give an extended "gets out of rubble" scene and that would be also positive.

Guess which one will be treated with more positivism.

[Dragoonlordz]

DirtyMouthSally wrote...

I just know that one of these days that a skilled programmer/hacker is going to use the Unreal game editor and hack this game and change the endings and build a patch.  The star child will be no more!

He/she will upload a patch to a file sharing site that will set download records! The internet will be buzzing with excitement.  People will decide to get married and name their first born after our saviour.  A Bioware employee will get canned for distributing the patch throughout the studio. 

Teenage daughters will join biker gangs.  Husbands will no longer suffer erectile dysfunction.  It'll be pandemonium that'll make y2k seem like a big media hype. A boy trapped in a refrigerator will eat his own foot!

ARE YOU WITH ME?!!!  

Nope.

[3DandBeyond]

Chris Priestly wrote...

hornedfrog87 wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

It is true that things do change given enough time (This is not lying, plans do change. 

So we have a chance after all!

Sure. It only took 6 years for Playstation players to get ME1.

That's the thing.  People can change their minds and anything can happen.  I take nothing for granted.

[3DandBeyond]

Essalor wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

So if there are 2 equivalently valid interpretations of one thing isn't that thing by definition ambiguous? you want to make Shepard dead in all 3 endings then remove the scene: that'd be definitive. Alternatively: give an extended "gets out of rubble" scene and that would be also positive.

Guess which one will be treated with more positivism.

This is one of the least appreciated things, that it should have been understood that a large group of fans would be disenchanted with any ending that did not feature true loss, true sacrifice for the unequivocal good, as well as a happier version that honors the hero.

If I had all that and if the end felt like that, I'd be here singing its praises.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 28 septembre 2012 - 11:58 .

[3DandBeyond]

ShepnTali wrote...

Dead Shepard is dead, live Shepard is either or. That's frustrating. The dead Shepards have their day in the sun with low ems.

It was said there would be closure.  Ambiguity is not closure.  I agree.  Anyone that wanted something uplifting where the people of the galaxy have the best things within their character reaffirmed and anything where the true themes of ME were upheld is non-existent.  But, if you enjoy watching Shepard die you get to see it from multiple angles and for such a long period of time that surely part of that could have been used for one scene.  Barring any idea that there'd be a change to the awful price for the whole galaxy to pay for some ambiguous victory, at least one small scene of a living Shepard would be nice.  What's wrong with actually being nice?  It seems that anything that is a benevolent idea is to be crushed, but we get to see the flesh, burning off of Shepard.  I fail to see how anyone that ever believed in the themes of these games could see that as the greatest thing ever.

And Shepard is laying in rubble not recovering anywhere.  I do believe it is a gasp for air and not a breath out, but this is absolutely ridiculous. 

[darkway1]

Bioware does not have to spend their time producing new ending DLC in order to tell people whether Shepard is dead or alive..........all they have to do is directly answer the question.....an official answer will make all the difference to fans.......either way the answer will finally end all the speculation and needless false hope.

[Ozida]

darkway1 wrote...

Bioware does not have to spend their time producing new ending DLC in order to tell people whether Shepard is dead or alive..........all they have to do is directly answer the question.....an official answer will make all the difference to fans.......either way the answer will finally end all the speculation and needless false hope.

Uuum, I'd still prefer a proper ending, to be honest. Otherwise this makes us just beggers. BioWare did a poor job and they have to be *corrected*.

[3DandBeyond]

futurepixels wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

And the fact that there are two interpretations of the fate of our hero is ambiguous.  You probably a smart guy and I don't need to tell you, but that is LITERALLY the definition of ambiguous.

Closure is that which ends any uncertainty or ambiguity.  That torso Shepard as well as the description of what happens with destroy, is totally ambiguous, it is either or, so there is no closure there.

In fact, one of the single most often asked for thing on these forums in relationship to closure for the original endings, had nothing to do with synthesis or control-most of us figured out what that all meant and felt they were diametrically opposed to all that Shepard, A Shepard could do in the stories.  However the most often asked for, begged for, pleaded for act of closure involved the breath scene.

It was why people got so upset about the MP/SP tie in, because they wanted that one bit of hope that Shepard lived.  Almost every person that clung to that breath scene was certain that it would get closure, but it didn't.  We have no idea where Shepard is, Shepard was a wreck, and is lying covered in rubble like so much trash.  You don't need to kill off a hero to end the hero's storyline.  And a "reunion" scene need never have been some long drawn out thing, but could merely have replace most of that Memorial Wall scene.  It could have been done and without it, there is no closure.

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Closure is that which ends any uncertainty or ambiguity.  That torso Shepard as well as the description of what happens with destroy, is totally ambiguous, it is either or, so there is no closure there.

In fact, one of the single most often asked for thing on these forums in relationship to closure for the original endings, had nothing to do with synthesis or control-most of us figured out what that all meant and felt they were diametrically opposed to all that Shepard, A Shepard could do in the stories.  However the most often asked for, begged for, pleaded for act of closure involved the breath scene.

It was why people got so upset about the MP/SP tie in, because they wanted that one bit of hope that Shepard lived.  Almost every person that clung to that breath scene was certain that it would get closure, but it didn't.  We have no idea where Shepard is, Shepard was a wreck, and is lying covered in rubble like so much trash.  You don't need to kill off a hero to end the hero's storyline.  And a "reunion" scene need never have been some long drawn out thing, but could merely have replace most of that Memorial Wall scene.  It could have been done and without it, there is no closure.

Absolutely.

But we don't even need a reunion for a live Shepard (though it would have been ideal) We just need

Normandy crew survives and gets off the jungle world

Shepard survives and gets of the Citadel.

That is how you "heavilly imply" a reunion can take place.  Unfortunately EC only did half the job.

[Dragoonlordz]

darkway1 wrote...

Bioware does not have to spend their time producing new ending DLC in order to tell people whether Shepard is dead or alive..........all they have to do is directly answer the question.....an official answer will make all the difference to fans.......either way the answer will finally end all the speculation and needless false hope.

Giving a direct answer would annoy people too. There will people who want him or her alive and people wanting dead, you give a direct answer one of those groups will not be happy. It is better imho to leave it up to the player to decide if alive or dead in their interpretation. Same reason they did not outright deny IT even though have not done an IT precursor to an ending and 99.99% sure they never will.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:36 .

[3DandBeyond]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

Bioware does not have to spend their time producing new ending DLC in order to tell people whether Shepard is dead or alive..........all they have to do is directly answer the question.....an official answer will make all the difference to fans.......either way the answer will finally end all the speculation and needless false hope.

Giving a direct answer would annoy more people than are currently annoyed about not having one. There will people who want him or her alive and people wanting dead, you give a direct answer one of those groups will not be happy. It is better imho to leave it up to the player to decide if alive or dead in their interpretation.

You have no way of knowing this at all.  It seems that no matter what anyone proposes, it must always be looked at through the prism of who it will ****** off, with the suggestion of not wanting to do that.  Of course, there's no concern whatsoever for those that are basically that way now-there never is a concern for that.  Nor was there ever any consideration for the people that would be pissed off who wanted the galaxy destroyed (some wished they had kept the original endings and the mass relay destruction), nor was there ever any consideration for how many people might be pissed off over not having vastly varied endings that relied upon the consequences of your actions rather than a choice.  Endings that would have been about cause and effect and not just EMS. 

So, why should they now have to consider who they might anger when that's never been a consideration before?  It's their game and their story, remember.

Personally, I don't think this would be sufficient just as the handling of Emily Wong's death was not handled well and because they almost already did try something similar with the torso scene.  People were told on twitter that it was Shepard alive and there would be a reunion.  They didn't find a reunion and asked again, then were told there was one because it was implied.  Then on twitter it was said they didn't know fans wanted a reunion and then it was said that it wouldn't be possible to have personalized one for everyone-well they personalized the memorial wall so they could have done so for a short reunion scene instead.  Then they were told it was a ray of hope or some such thing by one BW employee on the same panel as someone who said it was Shepard dying.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:40 .

[Dragoonlordz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

Bioware does not have to spend their time producing new ending DLC in order to tell people whether Shepard is dead or alive..........all they have to do is directly answer the question.....an official answer will make all the difference to fans.......either way the answer will finally end all the speculation and needless false hope.

Giving a direct answer would annoy more people than are currently annoyed about not having one. There will people who want him or her alive and people wanting dead, you give a direct answer one of those groups will not be happy. It is better imho to leave it up to the player to decide if alive or dead in their interpretation.

You have no way of knowing this at all.  It seems that no matter what anyone proposes, it must always be looked at through the prism of who it will ****** off, with the suggestion of not wanting to do that.  Of course, there's no concern whatsoever for those that are basically that way now-there never is a concern for that.  Nor was there ever any consideration for the people that would be pissed off who wanted the galaxy destroyed (some wished they had kept the original endings and the mass relay destruction), nor was there ever any consideration for how many people might be pissed off over not having vastly varied endings that relied upon the consequences of your actions rather than a choice.  Endings that would have been about cause and effect and not just EMS. 

So, why should they now have to consider who they might anger when that's never been a consideration before?  It's their game and their story, remember.

I have been here long enough to understand how they generally go about things. Now you might not agree with me, might not like how I see it but neither of those two elements change my stance and how I believe their actions will play out. I stand by my comment and if you do not like it then we will have to agree to disagree here to save any drama.

[N7 Lisbeth]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

darkway1 wrote...

Bioware does not have to spend their time producing new ending DLC in order to tell people whether Shepard is dead or alive..........all they have to do is directly answer the question.....an official answer will make all the difference to fans.......either way the answer will finally end all the speculation and needless false hope.

Giving a direct answer would annoy more people than are currently annoyed about not having one. There will people who want him or her alive and people wanting dead, you give a direct answer one of those groups will not be happy. It is better imho to leave it up to the player to decide if alive or dead in their interpretation.

You have no way of knowing this at all.  It seems that no matter what anyone proposes, it must always be looked at through the prism of who it will ****** off, with the suggestion of not wanting to do that.  Of course, there's no concern whatsoever for those that are basically that way now-there never is a concern for that.  Nor was there ever any consideration for the people that would be pissed off who wanted the galaxy destroyed (some wished they had kept the original endings and the mass relay destruction), nor was there ever any consideration for how many people might be pissed off over not having vastly varied endings that relied upon the consequences of your actions rather than a choice.  Endings that would have been about cause and effect and not just EMS. 

So, why should they now have to consider who they might anger when that's never been a consideration before?  It's their game and their story, remember.

Personally, I don't think this would be sufficient just as the handling of Emily Wong's death was not handled well and because they almost already did try something similar with the torso scene.  People were told on twitter that it was Shepard alive and there would be a reunion.  They didn't find a reunion and asked again, then were told there was one because it was implied.  Then on twitter it was said they didn't know fans wanted a reunion and then it was said that it wouldn't be possible to have personalized one for everyone-well they personalized the memorial wall so they could have done so for a short reunion scene instead.  Then they were told it was a ray of hope or some such thing by one BW employee on the same panel as someone who said it was Shepard dying.

I prefer not feeding the troll. He has no basis, nothing to support his idealogy other than "it would ****** me off," and none of the proposed additions we've bantered about for who knows how long affects his ending anyway. Nothing changes for him. Closure is for the rest of us, so, you know, we can be happy too and enjoy the game and buy DLCs and feel good about doing so again.

[CaIIisto]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Giving a direct answer would annoy people too. There will people who want him or her alive and people wanting dead, you give a direct answer one of those groups will not be happy. It is better imho to leave it up to the player to decide if alive or dead in their interpretation. Same reason they did not outright deny IT even though have not done an IT precursor to an ending and 99.99% sure they never will.

Greedy f*cker, you've already got three endings where he/she's dead. We only want one where he/she's alive! 

If this is the end of Shepard's story, and there's nothing to pull through into the next game then what difference does it make? If people want to kill Shepard, you've got three endings. If you want Shepard to live, you've got an ending. The notion that people will blindly go down the 'save Shepard' route is b*llocks, as most of us will end up playing all 4 endings anyway.

[Dragoonlordz]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

I prefer not feeding the troll. He has no basis, nothing to support his idealogy other than "it would ****** me off," and none of the proposed additions we've bantered about for who knows how long affects his ending anyway. Nothing changes for him. Closure is for the rest of us, so, you know, we can be happy too and enjoy the game and buy DLCs and feel good about doing so again.

Bester76 wrote...

Greedy f*cker, you've already got three endings where he/she's dead. We only want one where he/she's alive! [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

If this is the end of Shepard's story, and there's nothing to pull through into the next game then what difference does it make? If people want to kill Shepard, you've got three endings. If you want Shepard to live, you've got an ending. The notion that people will blindly go down the 'save Shepard' route is b*llocks, as most of us will end up playing all 4 endings anyway.

Resorting to insults I see. You do realise you do not unlock achievements, recieve a cookie or gain a gold star for each insult you post? I explained possible logic behind such decision. No point throwing a tantrum at me because of it. As it stands right now he or she is alive if want them to be.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:53 .

[Xellith]

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

I dont want to "interpret it".  I want some definitiveness to my ending. 

[AresKeith]

Bester76 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Giving a direct answer would annoy people too. There will people who want him or her alive and people wanting dead, you give a direct answer one of those groups will not be happy. It is better imho to leave it up to the player to decide if alive or dead in their interpretation. Same reason they did not outright deny IT even though have not done an IT precursor to an ending and 99.99% sure they never will.

Greedy f*cker, you've already got three endings where he/she's dead. We only want one where he/she's alive! 

If this is the end of Shepard's story, and there's nothing to pull through into the next game then what difference does it make? If people want to kill Shepard, you've got three endings. If you want Shepard to live, you've got an ending. The notion that people will blindly go down the 'save Shepard' route is b*llocks, as most of us will end up playing all 4 endings anyway.

I've seen alot of people say, they would still choose control/synthesis, making one the endings where Shepard is offically alive wouldn't change or hurt anything

[CommanderVyse]

darkway1 wrote...

Bioware does not have to spend their time producing new ending DLC in order to tell people whether Shepard is dead or alive..........all they have to do is directly answer the question.....an official answer will make all the difference to fans.......either way the answer will finally end all the speculation and needless false hope.

If it is not in the game/novels/comics it didn't happen. I will never accept a Twitter post being considered canon.

[AresKeith]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

I prefer not feeding the troll. He has no basis, nothing to support his idealogy other than "it would ****** me off," and none of the proposed additions we've bantered about for who knows how long affects his ending anyway. Nothing changes for him. Closure is for the rest of us, so, you know, we can be happy too and enjoy the game and buy DLCs and feel good about doing so again.

Bester76 wrote...

Greedy f*cker, you've already got three endings where he/she's dead. We only want one where he/she's alive! 

If this is the end of Shepard's story, and there's nothing to pull through into the next game then what difference does it make? If people want to kill Shepard, you've got three endings. If you want Shepard to live, you've got an ending. The notion that people will blindly go down the 'save Shepard' route is b*llocks, as most of us will end up playing all 4 endings anyway.

Resorting to insults I see. You do realise you do not unlock achievements, recieve a cookie or gain a gold star for each insult you post? I explained possible logic behind such decision. No point throwing a tantrum at me because of it.

and if you noticed the smiley, then you know its a real insult. And someone being called a troll on a forum is not an insult

[jkflipflopDAO]

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

Do you seriously not get what we're saying here? Or are you just trolling? This is the exact stupid crap everyone hates. I didn't buy your game to make up the ending myself. You are really not helping Bioware's position here. 

 

[3DandBeyond]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Giving a direct answer would annoy more people than are currently annoyed about not having one. There will people who want him or her alive and people wanting dead, you give a direct answer one of those groups will not be happy. It is better imho to leave it up to the player to decide if alive or dead in their interpretation.

You have no way of knowing this at all.  It seems that no matter what anyone proposes, it must always be looked at through the prism of who it will ****** off, with the suggestion of not wanting to do that.  Of course, there's no concern whatsoever for those that are basically that way now-there never is a concern for that.  Nor was there ever any consideration for the people that would be pissed off who wanted the galaxy destroyed (some wished they had kept the original endings and the mass relay destruction), nor was there ever any consideration for how many people might be pissed off over not having vastly varied endings that relied upon the consequences of your actions rather than a choice.  Endings that would have been about cause and effect and not just EMS. 

So, why should they now have to consider who they might anger when that's never been a consideration before?  It's their game and their story, remember.

I have been here long enough to understand how they generally go about things. Now you might not agree with me, might not like how I see it but neither of those two elements change my stance and how I believe their actions will play out. I stand by my comment and if you do not like it then we will have to agree to disagree here to save any drama.

If you have been here long enough then you also should know that they have done things that do exactly what you say they wouldn't want to do. 

I am not concerned about your stance and never have been because it is you who repeatedly has inserted the drama here.  And as I said, I'm not one who believes they should just announce that Shepard is alive, because I don't think that would be received well, but that is completely in concert with how I believe they should have acted all along.

If I created ME3, I would know going into it that the endings of it had to in some real tangible way be the resulting consequences of the player's actions and choices, much as in ME2's ending.  I would know that the endings should be where all action is the most intense because it is all out war (something BW's own marketing guy said would be the case).  I would know that fans expected that Shepard dying would happen and be the easiest and most often consequence of everything done before and during the action within the endings.  I would also know that an all out horrific loss was to be expected as easy to get as well.  I would then know that what also would be expected would be a way to an all out victory with those still left having a chance to come out alive.  I would also know that everything in between would be awesome.  Shepard having to sacrifice for something good, really good to happen.  Or some others, even a love interest dying. 

I would know that people want different things and I would work hard to provide a variety that would appeal to the broadest range of tastes, simply because I would not want to leave anyone out and would want to avoid pissing off big groups of people.  I would understand my fans.  I would understand that not everyone just loves dead heroes and that some people do like more uplifting hero survives endings while others like hero sacrifices all endings.

I would appreciate all of these things and work toward that end.

[Dragoonlordz]

AresKeith wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Resorting to insults I see. You do realise you do not unlock achievements, recieve a cookie or gain a gold star for each insult you post? I explained possible logic behind such decision. No point throwing a tantrum at me because of it. As it stands right now he or she is alive if want to be in that ending.

and if you noticed the smiley, then you know its a real insult. And someone being called a troll on a forum is not an insult

Application of the term troll is subjective. Some readers may characterize a post as trolling, while others may regard the same post as a legitimate contribution to the discussion, even if controversial. Like any pejorative term, it can be used as an ad hominem attack, suggesting a negative motivation.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 septembre 2012 - 12:59 .

[ShepnTali]

Bioware employee Twitter comments lack consistancy, and can't be accepted as anything other than opinions.

[AresKeith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

If you have been here long enough then you also should know that they have done things that do exactly what you say they wouldn't want to do. 

I am not concerned about your stance and never have been because it is you who repeatedly has inserted the drama here.  And as I said, I'm not one who believes they should just announce that Shepard is alive, because I don't think that would be received well, but that is completely in concert with how I believe they should have acted all along.

If I created ME3, I would know going into it that the endings of it had to in some real tangible way be the resulting consequences of the player's actions and choices, much as in ME2's ending.  I would know that the endings should be where all action is the most intense because it is all out war (something BW's own marketing guy said would be the case).  I would know that fans expected that Shepard dying would happen and be the easiest and most often consequence of everything done before and during the action within the endings.  I would also know that an all out horrific loss was to be expected as easy to get as well.  I would then know that what also would be expected would be a way to an all out victory with those still left having a chance to come out alive.  I would also know that everything in between would be awesome.  Shepard having to sacrifice for something good, really good to happen.  Or some others, even a love interest dying. 

I would know that people want different things and I would work hard to provide a variety that would appeal to the broadest range of tastes, simply because I would not want to leave anyone out and would want to avoid pissing off big groups of people.  I would understand my fans.  I would understand that not everyone just loves dead heroes and that some people do like more uplifting hero survives endings while others like hero sacrifices all endings.

I would appreciate all of these things and work toward that end.

that is what most of us expected to happen in ME3