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[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

 ME3 requires an elaborate amount of headcanon to overcome a multitude of obstaclees to reach the happiness.  That Shepard doesn't bleed out or otherwise die of his/her injuries.  That Shepard isn't written off as dead.  That a rescue team can find the hidden location he/she is trapped in.    

 All Inception requires is belief the top fell.

And ME3 ending does not do that? You can't imagine Shepard living?

Not easily, no.  What with the whole irregular breathing, walked into an explosion after being frakked up by a Reaper laser, partly-buried under rubble and trapped in a strange part of the Citadel with no aid nearby, assuming anyone knows he's still alive and knew where to look to begin with.

Otherwise, it's no problem imagining Shepard living. 

Open ended ending inheritly has proof for all assumption that people can gain form it.  In short, pros for all agruments.

One person can say he died and one person says he lived and they would both be right.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Not easily, no.  What with the whole irregular breathing, walked into an explosion after being frakked up by a Reaper laser, partly-buried under rubble and trapped in a strange part of the Citadel with no aid nearby, assuming anyone knows he's still alive and knew where to look to begin with.

Otherwise, it's no problem imagining Shepard living. 

In other words, it's no problem at all!

The beam is still active as shown by EC slides, so anyone who enters will be close to Shepard. Moreover, the Normandy is coming for you, or at the very least your LI, implied by the difference in the memorial scene. It's really not as bad as you think.

[N7 Lisbeth]

dreman9999 wrote...

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And ME3 ending does not do that? You can't imagine Shepard living?

No. Nobody goes back for Shepard, but that does happen in Inception.

To spin it another way, in Blade Runner, not only do we see Deckard leave with the girl on his arm, but he narrates the ending. Someone else narrates the ending in ME3's destruction, Shepard is mysteriously absent from all rebuilding efforts.

There is a giant hole for closure in ME3's endings, or more specifically, Destroy. (I find the other two too abhorant to touch.)

In Inception we don't know if its a dream or not.

In Blade runner we don't know if Deckard is really human or not.

ME3 is open ended bacause we don't have an indication if Shepard lived or died.  We dicide if he lived or died. 
And opened end ending inheritly have a hole for an ending. That what makes it open ended.

The dream-or-not isn't lack of closure. Closure is already present, Cobb is reunited with his family. The dream-or-reality question is just open-ended for discourse.

In Blade Runner, there are two endings; in one Deckard is human (theatrical), in the another he is a replicant (director's cut). Those interpretations aren't open for debate, but yes, that is an open-ending. But Blade Runner has closure before that, Deckard gets the girl and goes on the run.

Again, giant holes in Mass Effect's closure. Ambiguity instead of closure, but no, there's no open-ending except that the choice is the players. That's the only open-end there is to ME3, the fact that it's non-static.

[dreman9999]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And ME3 ending does not do that? You can't imagine Shepard living?

No. Nobody goes back for Shepard, but that does happen in Inception.

To spin it another way, in Blade Runner, not only do we see Deckard leave with the girl on his arm, but he narrates the ending. Someone else narrates the ending in ME3's destruction, Shepard is mysteriously absent from all rebuilding efforts.

There is a giant hole for closure in ME3's endings, or more specifically, Destroy. (I find the other two too abhorant to touch.)

In Inception we don't know if its a dream or not.

In Blade runner we don't know if Deckard is really human or not.

ME3 is open ended bacause we don't have an indication if Shepard lived or died.  We dicide if he lived or died. 
And opened end ending inheritly have a hole for an ending. That what makes it open ended.

The dream-or-not isn't lack of closure. Closure is already present, Cobb is reunited with his family. The dream-or-reality question is just open-ended for discourse.

In Blade Runner, there are two endings; in one Deckard is human (theatrical), in the another he is a replicant (director's cut). Those interpretations aren't open for debate, but yes, that is an open-ending. But Blade Runner has closure before that, Deckard gets the girl and goes on the run.

Again, giant holes in Mass Effect's closure. Ambiguity instead of closure, but no, there's no open-ending except that the choice is the players. That's the only open-end there is to ME3, the fact that it's non-static.

1.The fact that it my be  a dream means  Cobb  many not of met his family. With the nature of the story, just becasue you see it does not mean it happened. You can't say seeing his family is close becasue you don't know if it's real.

2.With Blade runner we don't know his fate. We don't know what happen he leaves. Anf the fate is decided if he is human or not. She him leave withthe girl is not closer because of that. We don't know there fate.

3.An opened end ending inheritly has a hole for an ending. That what makes it open ended.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:06 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Not easily, no.  What with the whole irregular breathing, walked into an explosion after being frakked up by a Reaper laser, partly-buried under rubble and trapped in a strange part of the Citadel with no aid nearby, assuming anyone knows he's still alive and knew where to look to begin with.

Otherwise, it's no problem imagining Shepard living. 

In other words, it's no problem at all!

The beam is still active as shown by EC slides, so anyone who enters will be close to Shepard. Moreover, the Normandy is coming for you, or at the very least your LI, implied by the difference in the memorial scene. It's really not as bad as you think.

When will they arrive?  Hours?  Days?  Weeks? London's all frakked up and even in the best endings the Normandy takes some damage (they're marooned at least long enough to have the memorial ceremony for Anderson and Shepard, so it's at least long enough for people ato assume they're both dead) Does Sheaprd have that kind of time?  

And even if they do get there in time, how will they find Shepard?  Like I said, Shepard's in an unknown and previously unexplored part fo the Citadel.  They don't even know where to look.

[Ninja Stan]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is a reminder that the Site Rules are still in effect for this and all discussions in this forum. That means that name-calling, insults, and assorted objectionable language are NOT allowed here. Keep it clean and keep it civil, please, or you will find your posting privileges removed for a time.

[N7 Lisbeth]

dreman9999 wrote...

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Some one needs to play leviathen....The catalyst is not the first reaper. Even he ays he's not the first reaper.

Taking the enemy's words at face value again, are we?

I mean, if it said it wasn't a Reaper, then that must be legit, right? Do you understand the use of "by extention"?

If it creator say it. It's a fact. 
And it creators said it.


Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...



[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Leviathan: ]perserve life at any cost.[/color]

That basicly means  they made a shackled  AI to solve a problem with no limit ever given to how. 
It's shackled. 

That proves the catalystis not lieing.

Crazy robot AI that looks and sounds like a reaper, created reapers, but isn't a reaper because, well, he just isn't okay? Yeah, that makes sens-- waitaminute, no it doesn't.

I understand what they're saying, but I don't think you're fully grasping it here. Remember, the Catalyst makes the Reapers after himself -- thus the "by extention." They are no different from one another except that the Catalyst was the original. If you want to be technical, "reapers" are a name the Protheans gave them -- it's not a genus. They're just AIs. But the Catalyst is one of them, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

[N7 Lisbeth]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Ladies and gentlemen, this is a reminder that the Site Rules are still in effect for this and all discussions in this forum. That means that name-calling, insults, and assorted objectionable language are NOT allowed here. Keep it clean and keep it civil, please, or you will find your posting privileges removed for a time.

Understood. Appreciate the second warning before action takes place, gives them a chance to cool off.

[Iakus]

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

 ME3 requires an elaborate amount of headcanon to overcome a multitude of obstaclees to reach the happiness.  That Shepard doesn't bleed out or otherwise die of his/her injuries.  That Shepard isn't written off as dead.  That a rescue team can find the hidden location he/she is trapped in.    

 All Inception requires is belief the top fell.

And ME3 ending does not do that? You can't imagine Shepard living?

Not easily, no.  What with the whole irregular breathing, walked into an explosion after being frakked up by a Reaper laser, partly-buried under rubble and trapped in a strange part of the Citadel with no aid nearby, assuming anyone knows he's still alive and knew where to look to begin with.

Otherwise, it's no problem imagining Shepard living. 

Open ended ending inheritly has proof for all assumption that people can gain form it.  In short, pros for all agruments.

One person can say he died and one person says he lived and they would both be right.

And I just said Shepard dying has far more pros than Shepard living

So why aren't all the endings this ambiguous.  Why only one that's "equally valid" if Shepard lives or dies?  Why aren't they all like that?

Modifié par iakus, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:13 .

[dreman9999]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Some one needs to play leviathen....The catalyst is not the first reaper. Even he ays he's not the first reaper.

Taking the enemy's words at face value again, are we?

I mean, if it said it wasn't a Reaper, then that must be legit, right? Do you understand the use of "by extention"?

If it creator say it. It's a fact. 
And it creators said it.


Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...



[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Leviathan: ]perserve life at any cost.[/color]

That basicly means  they made a shackled  AI to solve a problem with no limit ever given to how. 
It's shackled. 

That proves the catalystis not lieing.

Crazy robot AI that looks and sounds like a reaper, created reapers, but isn't a reaper because, well, he just isn't okay? Yeah, that makes sens-- waitaminute, no it doesn't.

I understand what they're saying, but I don't think you're fully grasping it here. Remember, the Catalyst makes the Reapers after himself -- thus the "by extention." They are no different from one another except that the Catalyst was the original. If you want to be technical, "reapers" are a name the Protheans gave them -- it's not a genus. They're just AIs. But the Catalyst is one of them, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

He's part of the reapers.

I just saying it does not matter. He part of the problem because he has to be stopped in order for the races to be free.

I think of him as a mad dogthat has to be put down.

[N7 Lisbeth]

dreman9999 wrote...

1.The fact that it my be  a dream means  Cobb  many not of met his family. With the nature of the story, just becasue you see it does not mean it happened. You can't say seeing his family is close becasue you don't know if it's real.

Doesn't matter if it's real, it's closure.

2.With Blade runner we don't know his fate. We don't know what happen he leaves. Anf the fate is decided if he is human or not. She him leave withthe girl is not closer because of that. We don't know there fate.

Doesn't matter if we don't know where they end up years from now, we know they escaped. We saw them live, definitively alive and arm-in-arm. The story is wrapped up with a nice bow on it. That's closure.

3.An opened end ending inheritly has a hole for an ending. That what makes it open ended.

You're interpreting open-ended to be a cliffhanger, which is the antithesis of closure. We were promised closure and we didn't get closure. I understand you're point at Shepard and saying that's open-ended, and it is -- that's the point. It shouldn't be. The fate of the galaxy after synthesis, that's open-ended and should be. But Shepard should be addressed or there's absolutely no closure.

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:16 .

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

 ME3 requires an elaborate amount of headcanon to overcome a multitude of obstaclees to reach the happiness.  That Shepard doesn't bleed out or otherwise die of his/her injuries.  That Shepard isn't written off as dead.  That a rescue team can find the hidden location he/she is trapped in.    

 All Inception requires is belief the top fell.

And ME3 ending does not do that? You can't imagine Shepard living?

Not easily, no.  What with the whole irregular breathing, walked into an explosion after being frakked up by a Reaper laser, partly-buried under rubble and trapped in a strange part of the Citadel with no aid nearby, assuming anyone knows he's still alive and knew where to look to begin with.

Otherwise, it's no problem imagining Shepard living. 

Open ended ending inheritly has proof for all assumption that people can gain form it.  In short, pros for all agruments.

One person can say he died and one person says he lived and they would both be right.

And I just said Shepard dying has far more pros than Shepard living

So why aren't all the endings this ambiguous.  Why only one that's "equally valid" if Shepard lives or dies?  Why aren't they all like that?

The pro for Shepard living is equal to Shepard pro for him dieing.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:25 .

[dreman9999]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1.The fact that it my be  a dream means  Cobb  many not of met his family. With the nature of the story, just becasue you see it does not mean it happened. You can't say seeing his family is close becasue you don't know if it's real.

Doesn't matter if it's real, it's closure.

2.With Blade runner we don't know his fate. We don't know what happen he leaves. Anf the fate is decided if he is human or not. She him leave withthe girl is not closer because of that. We don't know there fate.

Doesn't matter if we don't know where they end up years from now, we know they escaped. We saw them live, definitively alive and arm-in-arm. The story is wrapped up with a nice bow on it. That's closure.

3.An opened end ending inheritly has a hole for an ending. That what makes it open ended.

You're abridging open-ended to be a cliffhanger, which is exactly what closure is not about. We were promised closure and we didn't get closure. I understand you're point at Shepard and saying that's open-ended, and it is -- that's the point. It shouldn't be. The fate of the galaxy after synthesis, that's open-ended and should be. But Shepard should be addressed or there's absolutely no closure.

1. Yes it does. Because we don't know if it real mean we have no closer. Closer means we have no more quetions for the story. If the story has a question and issue left unawnsered it has no closer.
In ception is a question and issue left over. If the ending is real or not.

2.My point in statement 1 carries over to blade runner. It has even more issues and quations left over. Another bing waht happen after they go in the elevator. Did they go on to have a happy life? Did the escape fail? How long did they live for? Hech,Deckerd may of had 2 more days left to live. It still has issues and quetions left over.

3.No I'm not. Cliffhanger give the impresion the issues and questions of the story will go on and be explained in another chapter.
Open ended ending leave the issues and question of the story to be awnsered by the view by assuption.

[inversevideo]

No. What do you have that is proof of life? Data file names? These exist outside of the game. LI hesitates to put up the plaque? How is that proof of life?

Contrast that with Shepard being burned by Harbinger, shot, blown up, bleeding profusely, and left in a pile of rubble, in some secret location, to die.

[inversevideo]

As for leaving Shepard's fate a cliffhanger, why?
BW has already stated that we will not be seeing Shepard again.
So why leave Shepard's fate to head-canon?

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

When will they arrive?  Hours?  Days?  Weeks? London's all frakked up and even in the best endings the Normandy takes some damage (they're marooned at least long enough to have the memorial ceremony for Anderson and Shepard, so it's at least long enough for people ato assume they're both dead) Does Sheaprd have that kind of time?

Days is my guess. You can survive without food/water in that timeframe.

And I think that they assume Shepard and Anderson are dead as soon as the Citadel semi-explodes and breaks apart, since they were at the center, so I'm not sure much time passed there.
 

And even if they do get there in time, how will they find Shepard?  Like I said, Shepard's in an unknown and previously unexplored part fo the Citadel.  They don't even know where to look.

The beam is still active as shown by EC slides, so anyone who enters will be close to Shepard. 

[dreman9999]

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

 ME3 requires an elaborate amount of headcanon to overcome a multitude of obstaclees to reach the happiness.  That Shepard doesn't bleed out or otherwise die of his/her injuries.  That Shepard isn't written off as dead.  That a rescue team can find the hidden location he/she is trapped in.    

 All Inception requires is belief the top fell.

And ME3 ending does not do that? You can't imagine Shepard living?

Not easily, no.  What with the whole irregular breathing, walked into an explosion after being frakked up by a Reaper laser, partly-buried under rubble and trapped in a strange part of the Citadel with no aid nearby, assuming anyone knows he's still alive and knew where to look to begin with.

Otherwise, it's no problem imagining Shepard living. 

Open ended ending inheritly has proof for all assumption that people can gain form it.  In short, pros for all agruments.

One person can say he died and one person says he lived and they would both be right.

And I just said Shepard dying has far more pros than Shepard living

So why aren't all the endings this ambiguous.  Why only one that's "equally valid" if Shepard lives or dies?  Why aren't they all like that?

It not that they're not.

They all have the inherat quetion if the player did the right thing.
Add, Synthesis has a question the people after have free will.
And if the Shepard AI will keep the peace.

[ghost9191]

there are more then just shepards crew in the universe, the fleets or others on the citadel could look for survivors, they might find shepard, or shepard can move enough to find a way out , the crew doesn't have to be the one to find him or her., s/he could just meet them when they get back to earth

[dreman9999]

inversevideo wrote...

As for leaving Shepard's fate a cliffhanger, why?
BW has already stated that we will not be seeing Shepard again.
So why leave Shepard's fate to head-canon?

It's called an open ended ending.

In Inception, is the ending real or a dream? Same quetion with Total recall.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:52 .

[dreman9999]

inversevideo wrote...

No. What do you have that is proof of life? Data file names? These exist outside of the game. LI hesitates to put up the plaque? How is that proof of life?

Contrast that with Shepard being burned by Harbinger, shot, blown up, bleeding profusely, and left in a pile of rubble, in some secret location, to die.

1. What Shepard is made of. Shepard body was remade to endure. Remeber Shep is a cyborg.

2.Breath scene.

3. Shepard ability to servive the impossible.


It 's really up to the player.

[Morty Smith]

Is it at this point even relevant if Shepard is alive or dead?

I mean outside the support for feeble gamers comforting head-canons?

[Redbelle]

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

N7 Lisbeth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

And ME3 ending does not do that? You can't imagine Shepard living?

No. Nobody goes back for Shepard, but that does happen in Inception.

To spin it another way, in Blade Runner, not only do we see Deckard leave with the girl on his arm, but he narrates the ending. Someone else narrates the ending in ME3's destruction, Shepard is mysteriously absent from all rebuilding efforts.

There is a giant hole for closure in ME3's endings, or more specifically, Destroy. (I find the other two too abhorant to touch.)

In Inception we don't know if its a dream or not.

In Blade runner we don't know if Deckard is really human or not.

ME3 is open ended bacause we don't have an indication if Shepard lived or died.  We dicide if he lived or died. 
And opened end ending inheritly have a hole for an ending. That what makes it open ended.

The dream-or-not isn't lack of closure. Closure is already present, Cobb is reunited with his family. The dream-or-reality question is just open-ended for discourse.

In Blade Runner, there are two endings; in one Deckard is human (theatrical), in the another he is a replicant (director's cut). Those interpretations aren't open for debate, but yes, that is an open-ending. But Blade Runner has closure before that, Deckard gets the girl and goes on the run.

Again, giant holes in Mass Effect's closure. Ambiguity instead of closure, but no, there's no open-ending except that the choice is the players. That's the only open-end there is to ME3, the fact that it's non-static.

I remember those endings. Open to debate they may be, but........... here's a concept. Those who made the film have more powerful opinions than those who watch it. Harrison Ford has gone on record saying that he wanted Decker to be human to connect more deeply with those who watch the film. Approaching BR from a humans viewpoint is.......... well, easy. We're human and we have human POV's. I think Ford was trying to say that throughout the film we should see it through human eye's. But not be blinded to the POV's of the replicants and their creators.

Had Decker remained blind to the plight of the Replicants he would just keep retiring them. But the story causes him to question his values and grow as a person.

If he was a replicant then he could have the same growth as described above, but mixed in is the idea that if he is a replicant, then he's guilty of retiring his own kind. It's a interesting dilemma, but to heap that on a character by the end of the film is an issue that is unresolved and could provide more insight into his replicant character.............. But it's a movie. They had around 2-3 hours to tell a story and wrap it up.

[Redbelle]

Kroitz wrote...

Is it at this point even relevant if Shepard is alive or dead?

I mean outside the support for feeble gamers comforting head-canons?

I blame ME2. The ending of ME2 had all the things you did before hand feed into how the ending plays out in a big way. Squad mates loyalty missions increased survival odds. Upgrading ship allowed different scenarios to play out fighting to the collector base. Even getting the Omeage 4 relay key allowed you to, well........ not die when you attempt a breach. ME2 told a very convincing story that blended gameplay with plot and pulled out it's piece de resistance suicide mission at the end where suddenly everything you did before hand mattered, as to how the suicide mission played out.

By comparison ME3's final mission suffers. Your squad mates can't die before hand. Your battle readyness seems to have little, if any appreciable impact on the cutscene's of the Fleet/Reaper collision above Earth. All those soldiers from the other races are disturbingly absent during gameplay, only really popping up in story telling cutscenes, (aside from the Krogan, but c'mon. The chance to charge Reaper front lines with those guys? How could the developers have missed coding that wish fulfuillment fanstasy)?

All you have to do in ME3 is keep Shepard plodding along and you'll eventually overcome the odds and reach the beam. Nothing previously accomplished feeds into the experience to make it unique. unlike ME2.

Modifié par Redbelle, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:32 .

[Killdren88]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Casey Hudson has said it. Mac Walters has said it. I have sadi it. I will say it again. The Extended Cut is the "end of the endings". While there is more DLC coming for both Single & Multiplay and that DLC may have some effect on the endings (such as the new dialog with teh Catalyst from Leviathan), there are no mote endings for Mass Effect 3 planned.

You can continue to hope and you can believe what I say or not. It is true that things do change given enough time (This is not lying, plans do change. Take for example that ME1 will now be coming to the PS3 as an example). That said the team is not currently working on new/more endings and has no plan to start. We are working on ME3 DLC and teh new Mass Effect game, not new endings.

Mr. Priestly, people are always going to be upset with the ending. And unless it becomes a rule that people aren't allowed to post about it. It is safe to say that stuff like this is here to stay.

[Icinix]

Killdren88 wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Casey Hudson has said it. Mac Walters has said it. I have sadi it. I will say it again. The Extended Cut is the "end of the endings". While there is more DLC coming for both Single & Multiplay and that DLC may have some effect on the endings (such as the new dialog with teh Catalyst from Leviathan), there are no mote endings for Mass Effect 3 planned.

You can continue to hope and you can believe what I say or not. It is true that things do change given enough time (This is not lying, plans do change. Take for example that ME1 will now be coming to the PS3 as an example). That said the team is not currently working on new/more endings and has no plan to start. We are working on ME3 DLC and teh new Mass Effect game, not new endings.

Mr. Priestly, people are always going to be upset with the ending. And unless it becomes a rule that people aren't allowed to post about it. It is safe to say that stuff like this is here to stay.

I'll never stop posting to get my mote ending...