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One Last Plea - Do the Right Thing


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#5851
TheRealJayDee

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Xellith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

They could get literally anyone to voice those lines. They don't need expensive celebrities.

Voice acting still isn't cheap especially with the voice work that Bioware works with.  Plus there would be a lot of angry people if the voices of their favorite characters were randomly changed.


Original Mordin said "Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong".  And then in ME3 they have a completely different VO doing his voice.  >.>

Fake mordin is just annoying to listen to just because Its not the original mordin.

Mordin had the same voice just like everyone did in ME3 that was a reappearing character.


They just got someone else who sounded like original mordin.  Its similar but the second he started speaking I could smell a rat.

Changing VO is bad imo after experiencing Mordin.


Fake Mordin was even worse than not-Anders. It gets really weird when the original VA (Michael Beatty) tells the fans he hasn't even been contacted abot returning... whatever, Bioware...

#5852
AresKeith

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TheRealJayDee wrote...

Xellith wrote...

They just got someone else who sounded like original mordin.  Its similar but the second he started speaking I could smell a rat.

Changing VO is bad imo after experiencing Mordin.


Fake Mordin was even worse than not-Anders. It gets really weird when the original VA (Michael Beatty) tells the fans he hasn't even been contacted abot returning... whatever, Bioware...


they did the same to Kal'Reegar's VA

#5853
GarvakD

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Thats a pity. Anderson was among my top seven favorite characters. Reegar was an interesting addition to the series as well.  

Modifié par GarvakD, 01 octobre 2012 - 05:04 .


#5854
Xellith

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AresKeith wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Xellith wrote...

They just got someone else who sounded like original mordin.  Its similar but the second he started speaking I could smell a rat.

Changing VO is bad imo after experiencing Mordin.


Fake Mordin was even worse than not-Anders. It gets really weird when the original VA (Michael Beatty) tells the fans he hasn't even been contacted abot returning... whatever, Bioware...


they did the same to Kal'Reegar's VA


At least Kal wasnt in the game.  Mordin was and they just got somone else to do it... just because?

#5855
ld1449

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Fall of the Citadel DLC idea:

You get to play as an N7-class character (that you get to customize just like the MP) with Bailey in your squad along with someone else (maybe Aria since the hidden files show that she's still going to be on the Citadel even if she gets Omega back).

While the Reapers are trying to take the Citadel, you discover that the defense systems were shut down/manipulated by an inside source. You and your squad try to find the source (along the way you get greeted by a bunch of Reaper forces) . You then stumble upon a hidden archive left by the Protheans who had starved on the Citadel while they found a way to sabotage the Keeper signal (see ME1). Going through the archives, you learn about the Catalyst/Reaper intelligence that resides on the Citadel and you find out that the Crucible plans originated from the Reapers. The Reapers created the plans so that one day a good-enough cycle could complete and successfully deploy it in order to ensure that the organics are "ready" for synthesis. The classical definition of the word "Crucible" is a "severe test or trial." The Protheans were working on a way to modify these plans to include the Destroy functionality (and it goes without saying, the indoctrinated factions added the Control functionality).

At the end of the DLC, you get intel that could upgrade the Crucible:

1) So that way it exclusively targets the Reapers in the Destroy ending.

2) Make it to where the relays don't get damaged in the Control/Synthesis ending. (I added this part to keep the endings balanced. You can't boost one without balancing the other two, right?)


This is just a rough draft ofcourse and some of the details would need to be worked out, but this is one way that Bioware could make a DLC that address all 3 audiences:


1) The audience that wants "new" DLC content (not exclusively ending related).

2) The audience that wants an ending that wouldn't push moral boundaries. ("Destroy+" ending).

3) The audience that wants more exposition on the Crucible's origins/functionality. (They could maybe even add a codex as to how Synthesis works for example.)


EDIT:

The ending dialogue with the Catalyst and Shepard would still be the same. Shepard obviously wouldn't know much about the team that found the Prothean archives on the Citadel, but the Catalyst would not be aware of the Prothean upgrades that were added to the Crucible design. As a result, the Catalyst would still assume that the Destroy ending targets all synthetics even when it doesn't.


It'd definitely tip the endings to being "good enough" in my book. Right now it sits at "Close but no ciggar"

And most people who know me personally find that odd since I'm normally someone who says the main character dying would make some stories better.

Mass Effect 3 would very easilly fall into that category BUT. The key difference between ME3 and other stories that don't have the character die that I say the character should die is one primary key and any literature professor will tell you this rule hands down must always be followed when you want to make the character a martyr.

The person needs to have an option to live.

Even if in books/movies it doesn't seem like there's an option they always have more meaning/significance than ME3 in general because even if there isn't an aparent choice at the end of the book for the character to escape/survive there was always a choice throughout the length of the story itself for the Character to just say "****it" and leave. Its not a choice any author will take of course because its the damn protagonist but we, the audience know in an out of sandbox sense that the person always had that "option" if not for author/hand of god guiding them.

But in ME3 there is not an option to even run because Reapers kill everything. So without even the farthest fallback point of survivability available to Shepard even in an outworld sense,  you reduce the poignancy of his sacrifice into just a killing off move.

Take for example armageddon. (One of the only Bay films I can stomach) Bruce Willis at the end of that movie shoves the character AJ back into the ship after AJ drew the short straw of blowing himself up along with the asteroid, making it so AJ escaped on the ship and he was the one who died in his place. Hence the significance, bravery and poignancy of his sacrifice.

Now lets change the picture. On Armageddon, before Bruce shoves the AJ character back into the ship a piece of rock from the asteroid falls off rips right through the ship, the whole crew dies and AJ gets some shrapnel to shatter his helmet and kill him.

Bruce willis blowing up the bomb at that point is no longer a sacrifice, its him expediting his death by a few minutes and saving the people of earth in the process.

With no option of survivability there is no meaning, no martyrdom, no catharsis, there is only death

In ME3 its only compounded, not assisted by the fact that the death is held up by what is one of the most unequivocably hated characters in existence, the Catalyst, and framed by three equally abhorrent choices which equate, from left to right with Mass Slavery, Mass Molestation, and Mass Genocide.

Without the option of clear survivability, the endings will always be reduced to merely an elaborate method of killing off the protagonist of a 100 plus hour series in the eyes of a lot of people.

#5856
shodiswe

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Chris Priestly wrote...

Casey Hudson has said it. Mac Walters has said it. I have sadi it. I will say it again. The Extended Cut is the "end of the endings". While there is more DLC coming for both Single & Multiplay and that DLC may have some effect on the endings (such as the new dialog with teh Catalyst from Leviathan), there are no mote endings for Mass Effect 3 planned.

You can continue to hope and you can believe what I say or not. It is true that things do change given enough time (This is not lying, plans do change. Take for example that ME1 will now be coming to the PS3 as an example). That said the team is not currently working on new/more endings and has no plan to start. We are working on ME3 DLC and teh new Mass Effect game, not new endings.



:devil:


It would be interesting to know more about the new game and future plans for ME.
Also I hope the ending wont be all hordemode with railroaded dialogue.

#5857
Xellith

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shodiswe wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

Casey Hudson has said it. Mac Walters has said it. I have sadi it. I will say it again. The Extended Cut is the "end of the endings". While there is more DLC coming for both Single & Multiplay and that DLC may have some effect on the endings (such as the new dialog with teh Catalyst from Leviathan), there are no mote endings for Mass Effect 3 planned.

You can continue to hope and you can believe what I say or not. It is true that things do change given enough time (This is not lying, plans do change. Take for example that ME1 will now be coming to the PS3 as an example). That said the team is not currently working on new/more endings and has no plan to start. We are working on ME3 DLC and teh new Mass Effect game, not new endings.



:devil:


It would be interesting to know more about the new game and future plans for ME.
Also I hope the ending wont be all hordemode with railroaded dialogue.


But taking away the key aspect of the game is required in order to give us a more scenematic experience.  Dont forget - a game where there are multiple dialogue lines where you get to actually play the role you want is too videogamey.

#5858
CaIIisto

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ME4:

6 hour SP campaign
Horde Mode Co-op
New TDM-based MP

Afterall, they want to appeal to the widest possible audience.....

#5859
Xellith

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RPG shooter too.

#5860
liggy002

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Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
Why leave Shepard's story so open-ended and ambigious if you don't have any plans to follow up on it? 


This is a VERY good question, and Bioware should answer it, Chris.



I do not feel it is open ended. In most endings Shepard dies. Hard to be more definitive than death. I think people who cling to hope that there will be more see "open ended ambiguity" where it doesn't exist.



:devil:


The destroy ending (highest EMS) is very open ended in and of itself.  There are a myriad of possibilites.

Modifié par liggy002, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:18 .


#5861
Jawsomebob

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Davik Kang wrote...

Good day.

Personally I thought the ending was pretty amazing. The whole reason I signed up here was to talk about the ending and the series as a whole some more, because I thought it was so clever and had so many talking points.

I was so excited by the ending that the ME series went from one that I really enjoyed as a really good series of games, to becoming one of my favourite video game experiences ever. (Been playing for a long time btw). And I was really looking forward to learning about other players' interpretations of it all.

So I was disappointed to find that lots of people, including, it would seem, most people on this forum, found the ending to be pretty unsatisfying. And furthermore, that a very big proportion of those actually think the ending is flat out terrible.

I have been effectively banned from the "Do The Right Thing" thread, because certain members felt that the thread was only for players who didn't like the ending to make suggestions for how it could be improved. So I made this thread so that people who did like the ending could talk about why.

By the way I am not claiming that the whole game is awesome - in fact there are a number of things that I thought were not great, or even bad - but the focus of this thread is meant to be what players liked about the ending of ME3.

I have posted loads already across the forum on all the reasons I loved it, so I won't post it all again (at least, not in the OP). I'll check back on here tomorrow.

Yeah stick it to the pro-enders!!!! Lolz.

I still to this day cannot believe people hav this viewpoint but I guess it is like domocrats and republicans. I will always hate the ending to 3 and I try really hard to understand these people who like it...but I just dont see it. 

Modifié par Jawsomebob, 01 octobre 2012 - 09:44 .


#5862
sH0tgUn jUliA

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ld1449 wrote...

In ME3 its only compounded, not assisted by the fact that the death is held up by what is one of the most unequivocably hated characters in existence, the Catalyst, and framed by three equally abhorrent choices which equate, from left to right with Mass Slavery, Mass Molestation, and Mass Genocide.

Without the option of clear survivability, the endings will always be reduced to merely an elaborate method of killing off the protagonist of a 100 plus hour series in the eyes of a lot of people.


And not just the three choices. It was leaving the galaxy in the state of a total wasteland, even if one were to survive, never to see one's loved ones again, ever. desolate, hopeless.

And this is why I, and many people felt this way when they finished the game the first time. Like this picture which is titled "Desolation":

Image IPB

This has nothing to do with not making tough choices. This has to do with the outcomes of those choices. They were all bad outcomes. I'm going by the March endings. They do not change much with the EC. No time tables are given. Just a slide show and some cutscenes, but in the end they are pretty much the same. They are not going to change.

#5863
Chardonney

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Jawsomebob wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Good day.

Personally I thought the ending was pretty amazing. The whole reason I signed up here was to talk about the ending and the series as a whole some more, because I thought it was so clever and had so many talking points.

I was so excited by the ending that the ME series went from one that I really enjoyed as a really good series of games, to becoming one of my favourite video game experiences ever. (Been playing for a long time btw). And I was really looking forward to learning about other players' interpretations of it all.

So I was disappointed to find that lots of people, including, it would seem, most people on this forum, found the ending to be pretty unsatisfying. And furthermore, that a very big proportion of those actually think the ending is flat out terrible.

I have been effectively banned from the "Do The Right Thing" thread, because certain members felt that the thread was only for players who didn't like the ending to make suggestions for how it could be improved. So I made this thread so that people who did like the ending could talk about why.

By the way I am not claiming that the whole game is awesome - in fact there are a number of things that I thought were not great, or even bad - but the focus of this thread is meant to be what players liked about the ending of ME3.

I have posted loads already across the forum on all the reasons I loved it, so I won't post it all again (at least, not in the OP). I'll check back on here tomorrow.


Yeah stick it to the pro-enders!!!! Lolz.

I still to this day cannot believe people hav this viewpoint but I guess it is like domocrats and republicans. I will always hate the ending to 3 and I try really hard to understand these people who like it...but I just dont see it. 


The same. I fully respect their viewpoint but I don't understand it. We have had such an amazing thing going on for the past five years with this game trilogy that we love so dearly and then it all came down to this monstrosity of an ending. How can anyone accept that or even like it? At all?

It's also sad that this thing going on between pro-enders and anti-enders has started to seem like a civil war in this forum, that one game/company has managed to get players fighting against each other. ME3 should've been such a incredible thing, a wonderous thing, the next best thing after sliced bread but... yeah, this is what we have now. Still, I will hold the line and hope for the best because that is what we still have, hope.

#5864
3DandBeyond

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ld1449 wrote...


It'd definitely tip the endings to being "good enough" in my book. Right now it sits at "Close but no ciggar"

And most people who know me personally find that odd since I'm normally someone who says the main character dying would make some stories better.

Mass Effect 3 would very easilly fall into that category BUT. The key difference between ME3 and other stories that don't have the character die that I say the character should die is one primary key and any literature professor will tell you this rule hands down must always be followed when you want to make the character a martyr.

The person needs to have an option to live.

Even if in books/movies it doesn't seem like there's an option they always have more meaning/significance than ME3 in general because even if there isn't an aparent choice at the end of the book for the character to escape/survive there was always a choice throughout the length of the story itself for the Character to just say "****it" and leave. Its not a choice any author will take of course because its the damn protagonist but we, the audience know in an out of sandbox sense that the person always had that "option" if not for author/hand of god guiding them.

But in ME3 there is not an option to even run because Reapers kill everything. So without even the farthest fallback point of survivability available to Shepard even in an outworld sense,  you reduce the poignancy of his sacrifice into just a killing off move.

Take for example armageddon. (One of the only Bay films I can stomach) Bruce Willis at the end of that movie shoves the character AJ back into the ship after AJ drew the short straw of blowing himself up along with the asteroid, making it so AJ escaped on the ship and he was the one who died in his place. Hence the significance, bravery and poignancy of his sacrifice.

Now lets change the picture. On Armageddon, before Bruce shoves the AJ character back into the ship a piece of rock from the asteroid falls off rips right through the ship, the whole crew dies and AJ gets some shrapnel to shatter his helmet and kill him.

Bruce willis blowing up the bomb at that point is no longer a sacrifice, its him expediting his death by a few minutes and saving the people of earth in the process.

With no option of survivability there is no meaning, no martyrdom, no catharsis, there is only death

In ME3 its only compounded, not assisted by the fact that the death is held up by what is one of the most unequivocably hated characters in existence, the Catalyst, and framed by three equally abhorrent choices which equate, from left to right with Mass Slavery, Mass Molestation, and Mass Genocide.

Without the option of clear survivability, the endings will always be reduced to merely an elaborate method of killing off the protagonist of a 100 plus hour series in the eyes of a lot of people.



This is an exceptionally good point.  The hero must have a clear option to survive and choose not to for the greater good or it isn't sacrifice.  It's just necessary dying.

But the other point for me is that the hero must have that clear idea that what s/he will do is for the good.  If I set off this bomb will it do what I want it to do, or if it won't the death is meaningless.  It's gratuitous.  But since you allude to rules here, it's also so that in a series of books or stories or games, you set up certain rules-ME did with Shepard survivng AND defeating the enemy.  The enemies kept getting bigger and Shepard still could survive.  Now, dying to save everyone can make sense, but honestly in a game, heroes coming out alive is a lot more fun, even if hard to achieve.

Even in some of the most difficult games I've ever played where you could be a truly evil badass (and I mean there was no question of you being a hero) or somewhat the opposite, you lost and died a lot, but also could win and survive.

The one issue is that in this game, moreso than in any other there is so much the artifice of you being that character in making those decisions.  You make what you think are say, honorable decisions and when Javik says that line about you still thinking you can win with your honor intact, I say yes I do.  It'll be hard but sure.  But for me there is no winning.  There's choosing something that either keeps the status quo-reapers alive and under an AI control, give the reapers what they want-synthesis, not ever a goal, or choose to destroy billions of innocents and/or other stuff that's not very well-defined. 

None of those choices even partly allow one to keep the semblance of honor intact because they are not well-defined.  What would an AI Shepard be like?  Well, I don't even have to go that far.  How could I choose to force people to live with creatures that are bigger than skyscrapers and that may well have turned their towns, their cities, their planets, and their loved ones into goo?  And creatures that have people goo coursing through them-people that now exist as mere thoughts within reapers, who have been changed into data.  There's no assurance that Shepard AI will be anything benevolent as time goes on and my paragon says things no paragon would.  Synthesis has similar questions as to the fate of people, but also just what the heck the tech does or will do and how it's possible that synthetics will get full understanding of organics (that no longer exist) and from where?  The knowledge that the tech imparts upon people comes from where?

So, for death to be meaningful it must be a clear choice and it must be an active one-going toward something and not merely to avoid something else.  The mistakes within these choices are like other stories in ME on steroids.  Advancement, that caused problems.  Inserting something artificial in people without their knowledge, that caused problems, asserting control (in some cases indoctrination) upon people or racing to achieve control, or controlling AIs, that caused trouble, attempting to destroy races of people, that caused trouble.  So, no reason to believe there'd be any problems this time.

#5865
CaIIisto

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On the one hand, BW have created an ending that guarantees fans will be debating it until ME4 comes out.

Sadly, on the other, I don't see any way in which 50% of people aren't going to be disappointed when they reveal ME4's details.

#5866
CaIIisto

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3DandBeyond wrote...
So, for death to be meaningful it must be a clear choice and it must be an active one-going toward something and not merely to avoid something else.  The mistakes within these choices are like other stories in ME on steroids.  Advancement, that caused problems.  Inserting something artificial in people without their knowledge, that caused problems, asserting control (in some cases indoctrination) upon people or racing to achieve control, or controlling AIs, that caused trouble, attempting to destroy races of people, that caused trouble.  So, no reason to believe there'd be any problems this time.


Agree with this. 

Enforced suicide isn't a sacrifice. It's not a sacrifice when you have no other choice. 

I still believe that ultimately the range of choices should have covered Shepard both living and dying, each incentivised, and then the decision put in the hands of the player. 

#5867
3DandBeyond

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Bester76 wrote...

ME4:

6 hour SP campaign
Horde Mode Co-op
New TDM-based MP

Afterall, they want to appeal to the widest possible audience.....


This is perhaps what they will focus on, unfortunately.  Almost every company is doing it and with EA's statement that every game they make will have MP with it, and their belief in micro transactions, I'm very afraid that any company that becomes a part of this will be on that model (for rpgs and the like).  This is the CoD model, not just the FPS part, but the idea of a brief campaign and horde mode coop (special ops) as well as the TDM MP with some "missions" thrown in. 

The reason why most are failing at it where CoD succeeds is CoD is predictable and it exists.  Those that want that kind of experience, buy CoD.  People buy it for what it is and given other choices that are out there, they often feel like "there can be only one".  Most other games' attempts at going it CoD style don't do such a good job.  The seem cartoonish by comparison.  And micro transactions?  With CoD, some maps are real fan favorites that are grind fests.  So, other maps get ignored.  And CoD features a workable level up strategy and games that don't nickel and dime you to death.  I will say it again-I would much rather buy CoD maps than pay for any micro transaction and I have.  But I know that is mindless action that is so sad if that's what they want ME to become.  I've played plenty of CoD wannabes.  I liked Killzone 2, but 3 was less exciting.  I liked Resistance 2 a lot because of the coop horde mode that was in it.  But beyond those games, most have been just fluff. 

But again, if BW goes in this direction they are playing to a diminishing fanbase.  CoD has some broad appeal, but I can tell you when I've played it recently those with mics on have mostly been what sounds like 8 year old boys.  That's not a winning strategy for ME, not one with what's supposed to be mature story lines.  And this is not just a onetime thing-I've noticed this a lot that there's a large group of young kids playing CoD.  I contrast that with those that played Demon's Souls and Dark Souls-I never played those games with anyone under 19. I am sure they were there, but not in my games.

If ME goes this route, they will have to dilute the game quite a bit. 

#5868
3DandBeyond

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Bester76 wrote...

On the one hand, BW have created an ending that guarantees fans will be debating it until ME4 comes out.

Sadly, on the other, I don't see any way in which 50% of people aren't going to be disappointed when they reveal ME4's details.


Well the thing with this is that no matter what type of game ME4 is, unless BW can resist the urge to fudge the details about what it will be there may be a really "funny" thing happen.  Consider this scenario where they say it's going to be amazing and hype it excessively (I see no ability to resist doing this because of their back and forth over issues on twitter).  Then consider a lot of those who just love (not really for the most part IMO) the endings and the balance of the choices and whatever nauseating thing they repeat, finding out after they pre-order, that the game sucketh for them. 

Say, they have a change of heart and it's about Shepard coming out of indoctrination (anything could happen, not saying this would be it), and s/he actually defeats the reapers and there's a prologue of the galaxy rebuilding and going on.  Then the story takes place well after this prologue with a new set of characters.  Can you imagine the internal outcry of these people-how can they complain since the story is Bioware's to do with as they may?  If this happened (and I'm not a big advocate of indoctrination-but just imagine any one of the things we've suggested here) I'd buy that. 

Bioware has played around doing it the other way-incomprehensible, derivative, fantasy leading to futility and death or ambiguity.  So, why not equal time, returning to the older themes of overcoming things depite impossible odds?  I think at best there's a 50/50 divide of like/not like.  I actually think the division is more realistic if it's stated with more nuance.  There are those that like it, those that don't, and those that thought it was ok, but are no longer BW customers.  I think most of us still here want to have a reason for remaining BW customers, so I do believe there will be a big drop-off.  DA3's story and success or failure will be part of the determining factor and with the inclusion of MP there, it seems likely DA3's story will be smaller as was ME3's.  It will indeed be interesting to see what ME4 or whatever it will be called is touted as.  They lack credibility, so I won't believe any of it until it comes out.  I really do hope they will learn from this.

#5869
GarvakD

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Bester76 wrote...

ME4:

6 hour SP campaign
Horde Mode Co-op
New TDM-based MP

Afterall, they want to appeal to the widest possible audience.....

If this version is announced and released, they may not have enough funding to continue with the game.  And honestly, I would not be surprised if something like this ocurred.  

#5870
FOX216BC

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Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?


If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.



:devil:

Wow over 90 houres of gameplay and i'll end up with "interpretations". That's cheap.

I did not saw my name in the credits. So why should i fill in the gapes with my own imagination?

#5871
JamieCOTC

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Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?


If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.



:devil:


If you leave it up to the individual then anything is possible.  Shepard can be alive in any of the endings.  Maybe Harbinger's heart grew three sizes after letting Shep say goodbye to his/her sweetheart and called the whole thing off.

The idea of Shepard dying in the end was never a problem for me, rather it was the "speculation from everyone" that killed the ending imho. So if I'm going to speculate, then I'll just have to specualte myself a better ending.  Shepard dies, the Reapers are destroyed, and the rest of the galaxy goes on. The end. 

#5872
CaIIisto

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Well the thing with this is that no matter what type of game ME4 is, unless BW can resist the urge to fudge the details about what it will be there may be a really "funny" thing happen.  Consider this scenario where they say it's going to be amazing and hype it excessively (I see no ability to resist doing this because of their back and forth over issues on twitter).  Then consider a lot of those who just love (not really for the most part IMO) the endings and the balance of the choices and whatever nauseating thing they repeat, finding out after they pre-order, that the game sucketh for them. 

Say, they have a change of heart and it's about Shepard coming out of indoctrination (anything could happen, not saying this would be it), and s/he actually defeats the reapers and there's a prologue of the galaxy rebuilding and going on.  Then the story takes place well after this prologue with a new set of characters.  Can you imagine the internal outcry of these people-how can they complain since the story is Bioware's to do with as they may?  If this happened (and I'm not a big advocate of indoctrination-but just imagine any one of the things we've suggested here) I'd buy that. 

Bioware has played around doing it the other way-incomprehensible, derivative, fantasy leading to futility and death or ambiguity.  So, why not equal time, returning to the older themes of overcoming things depite impossible odds?  I think at best there's a 50/50 divide of like/not like.  I actually think the division is more realistic if it's stated with more nuance.  There are those that like it, those that don't, and those that thought it was ok, but are no longer BW customers.  I think most of us still here want to have a reason for remaining BW customers, so I do believe there will be a big drop-off.  DA3's story and success or failure will be part of the determining factor and with the inclusion of MP there, it seems likely DA3's story will be smaller as was ME3's.  It will indeed be interesting to see what ME4 or whatever it will be called is touted as.  They lack credibility, so I won't believe any of it until it comes out.  I really do hope they will learn from this.


You just hope that BW are actually paying attention. 

Most polls that I've seen around the EC endings tend to ask the question of "was it better than the OE" - that's the wrong question to ask, or certainly shouldn't be the only question to ask - it indiciates that the EC is better than the OE, but says nothing of whether or not people found it a satisfactory ending to the trilogy.

I have to wonder if part of the reason that BW are so reluctant to clarify the Shepard breath scene with a definitive "dead/alive' position is because they're still not sure if they'll need to do something with the character in ME4 to help unfurl the mess that we have at the moment. 

It will be interesting to see how DA3 fares. After DA2, TOR and ME3, another mixed or poor response, and BW will likely be feeling the heat.

#5873
hiraeth

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Bester76 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
So, for death to be meaningful it must be a clear choice and it must be an active one-going toward something and not merely to avoid something else.  The mistakes within these choices are like other stories in ME on steroids.  Advancement, that caused problems.  Inserting something artificial in people without their knowledge, that caused problems, asserting control (in some cases indoctrination) upon people or racing to achieve control, or controlling AIs, that caused trouble, attempting to destroy races of people, that caused trouble.  So, no reason to believe there'd be any problems this time.


Agree with this. 

Enforced suicide isn't a sacrifice. It's not a sacrifice when you have no other choice. 

I still believe that ultimately the range of choices should have covered Shepard both living and dying, each incentivised, and then the decision put in the hands of the player. 


^exactly. if you force a character (especially the main character that the player controls) to suicide/death, then to me the death doesn't feel as meaningful. maybe i wanted my shepard to sacrifice him/herself and maybe i didn't; maybe in one of my shepard's storylines it would have made sense and would have been coherent with her actions up until the end, and in another one of my shepard's storylines it wouldn't have made as much sense. why don't i get to choose? i previously chose everything, from the height of my eyebrow line to which of my squadmates dies, but i can't even willfully choose whether i sacrifice myself or not?

"but you do get to choose- in destroy you live!"

not really because (a) apparently it's up to me and millions of other players whether that breath is a last breath or breath of hope (side rant: REALLY? you can't even give me the satisfaction of definitely saying what type of breath that was? REALLY?), (B) when i made that choice, i had no idea that i was going to live and in fact was told that i would probably die because i'm partially synthetic, and © even if i assume that the breath scene indicates life, there's nothing after that scene confirming that i live...except some old dude telling a little kid stories about "the shepard" in god knows how many years.

fail all around. just fail fail fail. 

#5874
MegaSovereign

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Bester76 wrote...

ME4:

6 hour SP campaign
Horde Mode Co-op
New TDM-based MP

Afterall, they want to appeal to the widest possible audience.....


The minute they add TDM, I'm out.

#5875
dreman9999

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MassEffectFShep wrote...

Bester76 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
So, for death to be meaningful it must be a clear choice and it must be an active one-going toward something and not merely to avoid something else.  The mistakes within these choices are like other stories in ME on steroids.  Advancement, that caused problems.  Inserting something artificial in people without their knowledge, that caused problems, asserting control (in some cases indoctrination) upon people or racing to achieve control, or controlling AIs, that caused trouble, attempting to destroy races of people, that caused trouble.  So, no reason to believe there'd be any problems this time.


Agree with this. 

Enforced suicide isn't a sacrifice. It's not a sacrifice when you have no other choice. 

I still believe that ultimately the range of choices should have covered Shepard both living and dying, each incentivised, and then the decision put in the hands of the player. 


^exactly. if you force a character (especially the main character that the player controls) to suicide/death, then to me the death doesn't feel as meaningful. maybe i wanted my shepard to sacrifice him/herself and maybe i didn't; maybe in one of my shepard's storylines it would have made sense and would have been coherent with her actions up until the end, and in another one of my shepard's storylines it wouldn't have made as much sense. why don't i get to choose? i previously chose everything, from the height of my eyebrow line to which of my squadmates dies, but i can't even willfully choose whether i sacrifice myself or not?

"but you do get to choose- in destroy you live!"

not really because (a) apparently it's up to me and millions of other players whether that breath is a last breath or breath of hope (side rant: REALLY? you can't even give me the satisfaction of definitely saying what type of breath that was? REALLY?), (B) when i made that choice, i had no idea that i was going to live and in fact was told that i would probably die because i'm partially synthetic, and © even if i assume that the breath scene indicates life, there's nothing after that scene confirming that i live...except some old dude telling a little kid stories about "the shepard" in god knows how many years.

fail all around. just fail fail fail. 





What did I just read?
MassEffectFShep,Bester76,and 3d...You all wrong. A sacrific is not something a person or being inheritly wants to do. It something they do for for the greater good of th good.

It doesn't defer that sacrific if the person is put in a death no matter what choice. That means when the persom makes the choice, less death happens.

Look at Startrek 2's ending. We have the 2 main characters traped a near exploding warp core and the way to turn it off is in a super radiated room. If the warp core is not turned off, everyone n the ship dies. If it is turn of, it means one person dies.
That's the same thing as the endings of ME3.