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One Last Plea - Do the Right Thing


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#5926
3DandBeyond

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

TreguardD wrote...

Chris, take a step back. Look at this from the prospective of narrative.

You are taking the role of the protagonist and RIPPING it away from the player. You have to understand how angry that makes people.

We are not creating a decision. We are not approaching a situation and seeing our choices.

We are reaching a situation and being told "Here are your options." And all of them stink.

The only situation in which Shepard sounds like herself, AT ALL, is the one which you give a big middle finger to your player base by giving a "You Failed" message.

The One Ring, Instrumentally, Gencoide, and Failure. Those are your options.

FIX IT!

Saying that you are done with the endings is a bug, not a feature. Swallow your pride, and make it right.


I'm sorry, you just have to ask yourself.... "What would Brian Boitano do?" :D

Yes, I agree. All the choices stink. Unfortunately they're not going to change them. We're stuck. In a pile of garbage. Forever. :crying:

So I'm writing my own ending just so I can have a satisfactory conclusion to the story.


It makes me wonder just who will be joining us in this pile of garbage.  Should the next ME game be over-hyped and not be what it's said to be and then feature scenes from Lost In Space as a CoD clone, I have no doubt some will be showering the devs with praise at the originality of it all, but then others will be thrown down into the rubble with us.  Only they will have to get their own.  No sense letting them join us.

#5927
Humanoid_Typhoon

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TreguardD wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?


If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.



:devil:


Chris, take a step back. Look at this from the prospective of narrative.

You are taking the role of the protagonist and RIPPING it away from the player. You have to understand how angry that makes people.

We are not creating a decision. We are not approaching a situation and seeing our choices.

We are reaching a situation and being told "Here are your options." And all of them stink.

The only situation in which Shepard sounds like herself, AT ALL, is the one which you give a big middle finger to your player base by giving a "You Failed" message.

The One Ring, Instrumentally, Gencoide, and Failure. Those are your options.

FIX IT!

Saying that you are done with the endings is a bug, not a feature. Swallow your pride, and make it right.

Image IPB
Well said.

#5928
Zan51

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So we finally get a post or three from a senior Bioware person. Thanks for taking the time. Really. But how much of this have you read, or how was t summerized for you? Honestly, I hope.

A lot of us feel that you are trying to say you substitute open-ended speculation for a decent ending. That's not using the Craft of writing, that's abusing it. It's sloppy, amateurish. No professional writer does that if they are worth their salt.  I know, I am one.

In the RBG or Refuse choices you gave us there is no showing of the outcome of our choices except thos vapid stills. Where are the dying Geth to make us feel the pain of that choice? The grieving Joker over the dead EDI? Not there at all, just wiped away as if they don;t exist. Sloppy writing, I say.

I could go on but I really can't be bothered. If you can't, why should I or any of us who really wanted to see the game succeed, become a bright beacon of goodness.

I and many many others play games to escape a life that is less than ideal, to be a hero when we cannot change anything much in our own lives. As writers, game designers, we hold poeple who play our games, read our books in the palm of our hands,. We can elevate them to fantastic highs of emotion, make them be the Hero for  40 hours of play/reading. Or we can do what you did - trample on all the loyalty and investments they have made in your products by giving them something that is second best.

I know it will be a long time before I buy a game like this again. Meanwhile, I will go and play a fantastic little Indie dungeon crawler that just came out, a sequel in fact, where I can really kick ass and WIN. And it cost less than half yours did. That's by how much you have disillusioned me.

#5929
Calamity

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 So my Shep will forever be left in that rubble? :crying:

I'm not imaginative! Please don't make me try to write a rescue scenen in my head!:(

#5930
Gtacatalina

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Calamity wrote...
So my Shep will forever be left in that rubble? :crying:


Yep so will my ShepImage IPB

What a great end for my hero ShepImage IPB Yeah that's real closureImage IPB

#5931
3DandBeyond

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Zan51 wrote...

So we finally get a post or three from a senior Bioware person. Thanks for taking the time. Really. But how much of this have you read, or how was t summerized for you? Honestly, I hope.

A lot of us feel that you are trying to say you substitute open-ended speculation for a decent ending. That's not using the Craft of writing, that's abusing it. It's sloppy, amateurish. No professional writer does that if they are worth their salt.  I know, I am one.

In the RBG or Refuse choices you gave us there is no showing of the outcome of our choices except thos vapid stills. Where are the dying Geth to make us feel the pain of that choice? The grieving Joker over the dead EDI? Not there at all, just wiped away as if they don;t exist. Sloppy writing, I say.

I could go on but I really can't be bothered. If you can't, why should I or any of us who really wanted to see the game succeed, become a bright beacon of goodness.

I and many many others play games to escape a life that is less than ideal, to be a hero when we cannot change anything much in our own lives. As writers, game designers, we hold poeple who play our games, read our books in the palm of our hands,. We can elevate them to fantastic highs of emotion, make them be the Hero for  40 hours of play/reading. Or we can do what you did - trample on all the loyalty and investments they have made in your products by giving them something that is second best.

I know it will be a long time before I buy a game like this again. Meanwhile, I will go and play a fantastic little Indie dungeon crawler that just came out, a sequel in fact, where I can really kick ass and WIN. And it cost less than half yours did. That's by how much you have disillusioned me.


This is to the point.  While Chris is a Community Manager and not actually developing the games, I think what he has said shows a real misunderstanding of a lot of things that may be pervasive at BW.  First of all words have actual definitions.  Not meaning to be needlessly snarky, but there's no way I can help it.  All choices have high levels of ambiguity and a disconnect between what is shown and what should be shown in cutesy slideshows that appear to be meant to make people feel warm and fuzzy about making such abhorrent decisions. 

But even if the other choices/endings are closed and specific, the torso scene is anything but.  And having any ending be either this or that by definition does not provide closure since it is an illustration of ambiguity.  Using real definitions for such words-the ending is not fixed, not clear, not closed, and is ambiguous which is the opposite of what closure provides.  I am not meaning this to insult.  I believe he was acting on some sort of idea that if you think the torso is Shepard dying, you have closure or if you think it's Shepard somehow recovering under an unhealthy pile of rubble then that is closure.  Well, no it isn't.  Closure may be something we can head canon and provide for ourselves, but this is another promise BW made for the EC-that it would provide closure.  Nowhere did anyone ever say that closure must exist in our heads.  At some point they need to get real and actually say what they mean or mean what they say.

All one has to do is actually play the games and be honest about it and then see how bad a fit that torso scene at the very least is for these games.  There's a long list of things that don't fit, but a non-win or a quasi-win through the murder of friends.  The very definition of sadistic.

#5932
CyberMiguel

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Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?


If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.



:devil:

Have you personally seen someone die right in front of your eyes? I have and I also have some physiology studies (as I'm a pharmacist) and if there's one thing I can tell you for certain is that Shepard's breath scene IS NOT a person's last breath before dying. 

Everything else is kind of true though: you can't get more definite than death. 

Modifié par CyberMiguel, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:27 .


#5933
3DandBeyond

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CyberMiguel wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?


If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.



:devil:

Have you personally seen someone die right in front of your eyes? I personally have and I also have some physiology studies (as I'm a pharmacist) and if there's one thing I can tell you for certain is that Shepard's breath scene IS NOT a person's last breath before dying. 

Everything else is kind of true though: you can't get more definite than death. 


I'm with you here.  I've seen several people die and I'm so sick of it being called artistic that I could just scream.  Real death is anything but that.  I know that's a gasp for breath (I also took care of a friend who died of lung cancer and that type of gasping as well as bloody, and I mean real blood coughing fits was really so artistic).  I've seen critically injured people with mangled bodies.  I took care of a young man whose head had been ripped open by an industrial fan blade whose brains were draining out his nostrils (he was brain dead).  I took care of a young man whose whole right side of his chest was blown open by a self-inflicted shotgun blast.  I took care of amputees post-op.  I took care of many severely injured people and tried to resuscitate my dying father whose breath kind of gurgled out of him.  I know what death looks like and it is not pretty, not fun, not cool, and not artistic.  And yes, I know that gasp was not a dying breath and I think it's plenty horrid and sadistic for BW to assert that it could be this or could be that.

Beyond that, seeing as Shepard was already severely injured and had lost a lot of blood and perhaps had head trauma-at least a severe concussion.  Hell, s/he had the armor blown off of him/her.  And then this already injured person was inside of a pretty horrid blast (seriously, this is the image you want people to grab onto in the face of all this rotten war and IED stuff that's been going on as well as the very real trauma of closed and open head injuries that many are now suffering from).  And after that this already injured person that is within that blast and its blowback and incendiary nature, s/he ends up covered in and laying in a pile of heavy rubble and takes one breath.  One. 

If on the citadel then where and how will help come, who will find that torso in time?  It makes no sense that the Normandy would.  And we have no idea what happened to all those synthetic implants within Shepard.  Some have said that Shepard would survive because of all the rebuilding done by Cerberus and that Shepard would start to heal right away.  Well, then what exactly does the kid mean by the comment that even Shepard is part synthetic?  Ambiguity.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 02 octobre 2012 - 01:42 .


#5934
Chardonney

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Well, then what exactly does the kid mean by the comment that even Shepard is part synthetic?  Ambiguity.


True.

The way I see it is that everything the brat says about Destroy option is covered with "What ever you do, do not choose this" frosting. Everytime time I have played that scene, I have felt heavily BW's intent to push the player towards the other options (mainly Synthesis) seeping through. There could just as well be a red sign standing in front of the tube saying: "Wrong! Turn back now!"  :?

#5935
3DandBeyond

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Chardonney wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Well, then what exactly does the kid mean by the comment that even Shepard is part synthetic?  Ambiguity.


True.

The way I see it is that everything the brat says about Destroy option is covered with "What ever you do, do not choose this" frosting. Everytime time I have played that scene, I have felt heavily BW's intent to push the player towards the other options (mainly Synthesis) seeping through. There could just as well be a red sign standing in front of the tube saying: "Wrong! Turn back now!"  :?




Yes, destroy has "Idiot" written all over it.  I sometimes think that's the real reason for the torso scene.  They had said there would be no "reaper off button" and they didn't want a big space cannon because they thought that would be laughable (but really there could be a way to make it not be a big space cannon but something with more nuance but then their imagination would have had to been working which would mean we wouldn't have to make up stuff ourselves).  I think they just didn't take time or have time to give it that nuanced use.  So, destroy would be canon if it worked right and you know you can't have that (I'm so sick of that idea). 

And somewhere down in the bowels of BW-land, someone said, "hey, I know let's make it make no sense.  And then let's make it have some of the worst consequences of any of the choices.  That way no one will want to choose it.  Not canon.  Bingo bango."  And if you choose it because you selfishly also chose for Shepard to live, they decided on ambiguity for the torso as well to punish you for your idiocy and selfishness.  Now, go pick something cool.  But not that Control thing over there-they decided to make that sound just ominous enough that it's possible and even likely that will turn out bad.  Oh, but green eyes.  Who doesn't love green eyes?

I actually think that destroy is just the model for the finger message of refuse.  Refuse exists to tell you that you just didn't understand the message of destroy.

#5936
darkway1

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I have an odd question....on the Citadel,I'm sure in the refuge section there was a vendor selling Shepard love-bots or Shepard bots of some kind????......what happens if you picked the Synthesis ending.......invasion of the Shepard sex-bot?

#5937
Juggle

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CyberMiguel wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?


If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.



:devil:

Have you personally seen someone die right in front of your eyes? I have and I also have some physiology studies (as I'm a pharmacist) and if there's one thing I can tell you for certain is that Shepard's breath scene IS NOT a person's last breath before dying. 

Everything else is kind of true though: you can't get more definite than death. 


+1
I have to agree with that, by the way. This is not a sigh of person who is near death.

#5938
N7 Lisbeth

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CyberMiguel wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?


If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.



:devil:

Have you personally seen someone die right in front of your eyes? I have and I also have some physiology studies (as I'm a pharmacist) and if there's one thing I can tell you for certain is that Shepard's breath scene IS NOT a person's last breath before dying. 

Everything else is kind of true though: you can't get more definite than death. 


What's ambiguous is that after the "breath scene," we don't know if Shepard is rescued. We witnessed some rebuild slides and dialogue, but Shepard wasn't in any of it. That seems to heavily imply Shepard is dead.

The bottom line is you can't have a movie, a series, or a game end without knowing what happened to the main character and call that wrapped up. In the entertainment industry, we call that a cliffhanger.

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:55 .


#5939
Kel Riever

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Shepard lives in Destroy. The End.

Saying it is speculation is pure stupid on someone's part, even if that someone happens to be 'a writer.'

Because clearly, ME3 'writers' now need quotes around that title.

#5940
N7 Lisbeth

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darkway1 wrote...

I have an odd question....on the Citadel,I'm sure in the refuge section there was a vendor selling Shepard love-bots or Shepard bots of some kind????......what happens if you picked the Synthesis ending.......invasion of the Shepard sex-bot?


Only with a 7% degree of accuracy, the VI said. I know one-time met acquaintances that could better guess my responces to different stimuli than that.

#5941
TreguardD

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

TreguardD wrote...

Chris, take a step back. Look at this from the prospective of narrative.

You are taking the role of the protagonist and RIPPING it away from the player. You have to understand how angry that makes people.

We are not creating a decision. We are not approaching a situation and seeing our choices.

We are reaching a situation and being told "Here are your options." And all of them stink.

The only situation in which Shepard sounds like herself, AT ALL, is the one which you give a big middle finger to your player base by giving a "You Failed" message.

The One Ring, Instrumentally, Gencoide, and Failure. Those are your options.

FIX IT!

Saying that you are done with the endings is a bug, not a feature. Swallow your pride, and make it right.


I'm sorry, you just have to ask yourself.... "What would Brian Boitano do?" :D

Yes, I agree. All the choices stink. Unfortunately they're not going to change them. We're stuck. In a pile of garbage. Forever. :crying:

So I'm writing my own ending just so I can have a satisfactory conclusion to the story.


I'd rather ask what would Sonic and Shadow do. Follow Garrus's advice. If you scream long enough, eventually someone will come around to see what the fuss is about. If nobody's come yet, you've not screamed long or loud enough.

#5942
Iakus

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Gtacatalina wrote...

Calamity wrote...
So my Shep will forever be left in that rubble? :crying:


Yep so will my ShepImage IPB

What a great end for my hero ShepImage IPB Yeah that's real closureImage IPB


And mine.  Doomed to spend all eternity house sitting for Schrödinger's cat 
:(

#5943
Chardonney

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iakus wrote...

Gtacatalina wrote...

Calamity wrote...
So my Shep will forever be left in that rubble? :crying:


Yep so will my ShepImage IPB

What a great end for my hero ShepImage IPB Yeah that's real closureImage IPB


And mine.  Doomed to spend all eternity house sitting for Schrödinger's cat 
:(



And mine, as well. There's gonna be a big pile of Sheps under that rubble. :unsure:

#5944
AresKeith

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Chardonney wrote...

iakus wrote...

Gtacatalina wrote...

Calamity wrote...
So my Shep will forever be left in that rubble? :crying:


Yep so will my ShepImage IPB

What a great end for my hero ShepImage IPB Yeah that's real closureImage IPB


And mine.  Doomed to spend all eternity house sitting for Schrödinger's cat 
:(



And mine, as well. There's gonna be a big pile of Sheps under that rubble. :unsure:


mines too, still waiting for that team to say "we found Shepard" and are starts to pull them out the rubble

#5945
CmnDwnWrkn

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Oh please. People are all of a sudden concerned about "genocide" when it comes to the Geth, but had no problem with wiping out the Batarians. Hypocrites.

#5946
Chardonney

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CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Oh please. People are all of a sudden concerned about "genocide" when it comes to the Geth, but had no problem with wiping out the Batarians. Hypocrites.


Who says we have no problems wiping out the Batarians. I happen to like those guys and felt like **** after the arrival. That was the most depressing and saddest moment in ME2. :?

#5947
TreguardD

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CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Oh please. People are all of a sudden concerned about "genocide" when it comes to the Geth, but had no problem with wiping out the Batarians. Hypocrites.


It's disturbing that you really believe that.

As a reader, it is easier to understand (not accept, understand) because it makes sense within the flow of the narrative. The relay was a stalling tactic, the only available one at that time. And if you think that big three hundred thousand number is just a number... (well, it is a video game - you're right) but within the confines of the universe, it is a massacre.

That wasn't easy to do, either.

The real genocide of the Batarians is done by the Reapers. Do not hold me accountable for that one.

The real difference between the two events - the relay and the "Crucible" - is the initiater. We have our options laid out by a catalyst (who could honestly say "Ok. We'll just go away, then.) rather than initiating the idea ourselves.

#5948
HiddenInWar

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I read a quote by a user on tumblr regarding the destroy ending. I don't remember all of it, but here's what I do remember: "Sometimes, not everything has a happy ending. Sometimes the hero dies alone in a cave while the kingdom rejoices". I found this to be strangely pretty.

#5949
ShepnTali

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They left Shepard's fate 'ambiguous' to make everyone happy. lol...

#5950
Mad-Hamlet

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ShepnTali wrote...

They left Shepard's fate 'ambiguous' to make everyone happy. lol...


Well, God knows I love ambiguity.

I might have a job!

The IRS may audit me!

My soon to be born child could be a gender!

Happy days!