6432 réponses à ce sujet

[wantedman dan]

Mikk016 wrote...

I think he's talking about the "artistic integrity" most of us don't seem to understand.

That explanation has always irked me. Using "artistic integrity" as a crutch to defend poor storytelling is weak argumentation.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 03 octobre 2012 - 05:09 .

[Chardonney]

3DandBeyond wrote...

If you do view the torso as a cliffhanger, it would make sense, especially if taken along with the male stargazer scene.  That may never have been about DLC.

Agreed, it would be a perfect gliffhanger for ME4. I so wish for that - the forever optimist that I am - even though it seems highly unlikely. Also, the Stargazer line "...but okay, one more story" kinda hints towards that direction (wishful thinking again most likely). Oh, but wouldn't that be amazing, though? *sigh*

But I would settle for a a better ending for Shep in Destroy. If the ME4 is going to be dated after the reaper war, it would be much more satisfying to play with a new character and know, that yeah, while I'm doing this and that with him/her, Shep is somewhere around the galaxy fine and well.  

Modifié par Chardonney, 03 octobre 2012 - 05:13 .

[3DandBeyond]

wantedman dan wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

And you're happy with that? Seriously?

With that answer, you can't seriously wonder why people are still so bitter at you people.

Well, this seems to be a recurring problem.  Ambiguity does not mean closure.  But then, a lot of things don't mean what they think they mean.  And one of their marketing guys (the head marketing guy) couldn't seem to subtract 2007 from 2012 and get 5, and said you wouldn't care about any friends or romances at the end of ME3 because it's all out war and the fighting would be so intense.  And, that no one would remember what took place in the previous games because who could remember what happened when ME1 was released 8 years ago.  This right here indicates a  real lack of understanding of the word fan.  And how actual fans play the games and what replayability and all those codex listings mean.  How can you market a game if you don't understand the intended audience, can't subtract, and don't even know what the game is about?  And then saying that it was the best game for entry into the series.  Ok, so why are they going to release the trilogy if you should only ever play ME3?

I blame speculation.  We need to start an opposite speculation thread and put in it the things we really want to see in a game and say it's exactly what we hope never to see.  Maybe then they'll make a game like that.

They can still pull this out and do something that's worthy at least at the end of the game and actually allow real input, logical input as to why this stuff just failed to meet hopes, if not expectations.  I never fully expected any ending that was totally predictable, but at this point predictable at least would have given true closure and a decent closure.

[Mikk016]

wantedman dan wrote...

That explanation has always irked me. Using "artistic integrity" as a crutch to defend poor storytelling is weak argumentation.

Me too. "Artistic integrity" is the worst explanation, justification, answer or whatever the hell it actually means, to anything. I lost my faith in ME and the company when they don't even have the cojones to just say: "hey, we made a mistake."

[3DandBeyond]

Chardonney wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

If you do view the torso as a cliffhanger, it would make sense, especially if taken along with the male stargazer scene.  That may never have been about DLC.

Agreed, it would be a perfect gliffhanger for ME4. I so wish for that - the forever optimist that I am - even though it seems highly unlikely. Also, the Stargazer line "...but okay, one more story" kinda hints towards that direction (wishful thinking again most likely). Oh, but wouldn't that be amazing, though? *sigh*

I agree.  I try not to think too much of that as a possibility because I know the logistics of doing that would be enormous.  They'd have to assure a large core cast would return because if not it would really mess things up again.  I can't imagine some being happy if for instance Miranda did not return.  However, and I'm not saying this would happen to Miranda, but there's a real risk here whenever you say you wouldn't like something to happen because that is exactly what they are likely to do-there's the real possibility that they will decide to cut some of the cast if they decide to continue with the story of Shepard.  I think it's the reason why friends were scattered to the winds.  And some of them were assigned duties on the crucible.  They didn't show up in some slideshows.  It also looked to me like the crucible was destroyed in destroy.

You see, speculation is bad for you.

[wantedman dan]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Well, this seems to be a recurring problem.  Ambiguity does not mean closure.  But then, a lot of things don't mean what they think they mean.  And one of their marketing guys (the head marketing guy) couldn't seem to subtract 2007 from 2012 and get 5, and said you wouldn't care about any friends or romances at the end of ME3 because it's all out war and the fighting would be so intense.  And, that no one would remember what took place in the previous games because who could remember what happened when ME1 was released 8 years ago.  This right here indicates a  real lack of understanding of the word fan.  And how actual fans play the games and what replayability and all those codex listings mean.  How can you market a game if you don't understand the intended audience, can't subtract, and don't even know what the game is about?  And then saying that it was the best game for entry into the series.  Ok, so why are they going to release the trilogy if you should only ever play ME3?

I blame speculation.  We need to start an opposite speculation thread and put in it the things we really want to see in a game and say it's exactly what we hope never to see.  Maybe then they'll make a game like that.

They can still pull this out and do something that's worthy at least at the end of the game and actually allow real input, logical input as to why this stuff just failed to meet hopes, if not expectations.  I never fully expected any ending that was totally predictable, but at this point predictable at least would have given true closure and a decent closure.

Ambiguity is the antithesis of closure. What we have here is a fundamental failure on multiple levels of the Bioware heirarchy. The very fact they don't acknowledge it is a failure in and of itself. 

When game publishers focus more on the elite journalists and their reviews over what the fans want, we have a problem. Bioware is the exact epitome of this problem. The fact is, we're almost a year removed from the initial drop of Mass Effect 3. Would it be practical, or even possible, to salvage what's left? I don't think so. 

[BearlyHere]

luaggy wrote...

It's been a few months since i touched ME3 or looked at these forums after my disappointment of the infamous endings, my original anger at me3's conculsion was really more a sense of feeling that i hadn't truly won. The starkid, the destruction of the relays etc i was okay with or at least i could accept. Personnally when i watch an epic movie or play a game of ME calibur i hope for an outcome that has both emotional content (which ME3 did well) and a final scene where the hero/heroine is rewarded in some form. the end of the original star wars for quick example with the medal ceromony. A simple scene after the destroy ending when shepard takes the breath an arm reaches down and takes shepards camera moves to show the LI, a few words like "you didn't think you were really alone shepard" For me something along those lines would of been enough and at small expense on biowares part to leave me with a sense of reward. Although a reuion dlc or a extra endings cut i would see as very doutful

See, that could have been so easy to do, and wouldn't require writing dozens of different ending slides. All people want is closure in their game, not ambiguity to save Bioware the work of getting themselves out of the corner they had painted themselves into. Though I think people would like to know what happened to the rest of the crew, such as "Joker became a wandering drunk after EDI's death," etc, I think most would have been satisfied knowing that Shep was rescued and reunited with LI. I can't wrap my head around why they're so hell bent on preserving a horrible ending now that they know how many people are unsatisfied. 

But no, instead we got a massive middle finger. Because when it comes down to it, that's all the die endings are. I've stated before I wonder because of the reaction, especially from the good doctors, if they  play their games anymore, or play any games? If the answer is no, I challange Bioware employees to do that, starting with ME1, and then tell me that the ending of the trilogy didn't feel like a middle finger directed at the players. 

The other day that old Chevy Chase movie Vacation was on, and it got me thinking what if the family finally got to Wally World, and finding it closed, the final credits rolled. No happy ending, game over. No, Bioware, it's the destination, not just the journey. The journey is simply what happens along the way. The destination is the whole point. Without that arrival at the destination, the journey is pointless. I challenge them to give us real closure and see how their DLC sales pick up, because at least then, we would have a reason to make those stops on the journey. As it stands now, what is the point if more DLC doesn't get us there? We're not 14 year old boys squeeling, "Ooh, guns! Swords! Boobies!" And if the people in charge can't see that, maybe they need to hire people who do understand their demographics and respect their customers.

[davepissedatending]

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.





wow that is so depressing :/ so why say boiware are listening  then ? Your not !! If bioware did bring out a ending dlc it would sell buckits loads do U not like making money?? Glad ive seen this because the Levi dlc will b the last I buy. What's the point playing again if no matter what shepards dead wow I miss games being fun why so depressing??

[Ithurael]

wantedman dan wrote...

That explanation has always irked me. Using "artistic integrity" as a crutch to defend poor storytelling is weak argumentation.

...but from my point of view the Jedi are evil..
:wizard::wizard:

[Mastone]

OP...they won't, they are to artistic for us players.. we just don't get that smart and clever ending

[Knottedredloc]

Ugh.... Reading Priestly's responses just ruined what excitement I had left for playing any of the ME games again and it's not because of Bioware's refusal to tough the endings. I can accept that the ending "is what it is".    I actually completed a full ME1 thru ME2 run in preparation for Leviathan and resently started ME3 again. I was planning on running through ME3 up until just before strike on Cerberus to start Leviathan. Unforunately I can't get through the game anymore because right now it feels like a chore. It's funny but I did not realize it until I open this thread and started reading. I not blaming Priestly or anyone in particular for this sudden epiphany because I think I have been feeling this way for a while. Sorry for the long random rant and I would like to say thank you to Bioware and everyone on the board. It was good while it lasted but after 6 yrs of being a diehard fan Mass Effect I think it time for me to move on for now. Maybe something will happen later to reignite that spark because I actually love this board and Mass Effect will always have a place in my heart. Goodbye yall!

Modifié par Knottedredloc, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:25 .

[MattFini]

wantedman dan wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

And you're happy with that? Seriously?

With that answer, you can't seriously wonder why people are still so bitter at you people.

Pretty much this.

Yes, synthesis and control present fairly definitive endings for Shepard. And yet, the players who do all the 'extra' work to get high EMS destory are graced with an ambiguous breath.

And that's the end of Shepard's story?

I can't think of another example of a gaming company so abrasively giving the middle finger to their main character. Hell, Eidos "killed" Lara Croft, but they had the good sense to bring her right back. Although that's not really comprable because they never claimed that was the end of Lara, either. 

Modifié par MattFini, 03 octobre 2012 - 07:27 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Bester76 wrote...

With eloquence of thought like that, have we completely ruled out GWB from actually having a hand in the ending(s)......?

If he did I would expect far more colloquialism from the Catalyst, of course the Reapers motivation for killing organics might result in them just being good eatin' but that's far less convoluted as far as I'm concerned.

[CaIIisto]

Seems like George may have at least crafted the message for the Shepard character and ME fans in general....

http://politicaldemo...ck_it.jpg?w=655

[Iakus]

MattFini wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

And you're happy with that? Seriously?

With that answer, you can't seriously wonder why people are still so bitter at you people.

Pretty much this.

Yes, synthesis and control present fairly definitive endings for Shepard. And yet, the players who do all the 'extra' work to get high EMS destory are graced with an ambiguous breath.

And that's the end of Shepard's story?

I can't think of another example of a gaming company so abrasively giving the middle finger to their main character. Hell, Eidos "killed" Lara Croft, but they had the good sense to bring her right back. Although that's not really comprable because they never claimed that was the end of Lara, either. 

And that's why I think the Shepard "lives" ending either needs to be tweeked to be more definitive, or Mass Effect 3 needs a Broken Steel-style dlc..

[Dr.Freeman]

wantedman dan wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

And you're happy with that? Seriously?

With that answer, you can't seriously wonder why people are still so bitter at you people.

THIS.

I'm on a new ME3 playthrough right now and I have only 2 missions left. Cerberus and Earth.
You know, when it came to the Suicide Mission in ME2, I was all like "YEAH LET'S DO IT !!!"
But when it comes to the final missions in ME3 it's only... Meh.
There is Thessia, then Horizon (motivation decreases...), you attack Cerberus (motivation almost zero) and then there is Priority Earth and it's just... Meh. And the main reason for me is, that the characters I love are treated so bad. Yes Bioware, I cared for Shepard and his/her crew and all I wanted is to know  what happened to them, after that long journey. I don't want Shepard to be either dead or alive. Hell, he did not deserve to die twice. <_<

Modifié par Dr.Freeman, 03 octobre 2012 - 08:23 .

[Xellith]

Dr.Freeman wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

And you're happy with that? Seriously?

With that answer, you can't seriously wonder why people are still so bitter at you people.

THIS.

I'm on a new ME3 playthrough right now and I have only 2 missions left. Cerberus and Earth.

Priority Earth doesnt count as a mission.  Its more like a glorified fetch quest in its intricacy.

[Dr.Freeman]

Yes you're right, and it's not just meh, it's more like "I don't want to do this sh*t again."

[CaIIisto]

Some parts of Priority Earth I thought were ok - the goodbyes at the command post, the final assault on the beam (even though it was railroaded), however, the general gameplay was meh, and the final 10 minutes are just an abomination.

[jakal66]

Bioware please tell Chris to just stop talking about the scene he's just making it worse...If this is your idea of closure then hell, you deserve everything you got in regards complaints about the ending.

That excuse is weak, Chirs just weak.It shows you(BIOWARE) didn't know what to do with that sequence, you wanted sheppard dead and you were afraid to kill him so just in case you put that PATHETIC scene and the expect us to be happy with how you handled that ending.

A little ten year old could've come up with a sequence after the scene better than leaving this horrible excuse for an ending in destroy. I hope Bio eventually figures this out because this is just cementing bad business for their next game...rememeber BIOWARE people might forgive but not forget.ME4 depends on how you deal with sheppard.

You still have the chance...but Chris...I have to say I was more or less OK with the scene, well not OK, but I accepted it since some other Bioware staff had said he survived, you came in and in 2 seconds spread doubt all over the place....thanks...

Why were you so decided to kill off the character...you had 2 endings in which he indeed sacrifices, now gives us a damn ending where he survives and accepts the fate he has written for humanity and the rest...do it while we still care...otherwise....it'll be too late

Modifié par jakal66, 03 octobre 2012 - 09:32 .

[AresKeith]

Bester76 wrote...

Some parts of Priority Earth I thought were ok - the goodbyes at the command post, the final assault on the beam (even though it was railroaded), however, the general gameplay was meh, and the final 10 minutes are just an abomination.

Yea, everything past the "goodbyes" was complete crap and wasted potential because it was rushed

[Lunch Box1912]

wantedman dan wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

And you're happy with that? Seriously?

With that answer, you can't seriously wonder why people are still so bitter at you people.

It's Damage Control.

[jakal66]

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

And you're happy with that? Seriously?

With that answer, you can't seriously wonder why people are still so bitter at you people.

It's Damage Control.

More like damaging even more what was already broken....they could have saved that ending(destroy) with the EC...they chose not to for what ever CRAZY reason ....

[Lunch Box1912]

jakal66 wrote...

Lunch Box1912 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

futurepixels wrote...
How can you say that leaving the fate of your hero "up to the individual" is not open-ended and ambigious?

If he lives, he is alive and if he dies he is not. There are 2 interpretations of that breath. Either it is Shepard's first breath after recovering, or it is Shepard's last breath before dying.

And you're happy with that? Seriously?

With that answer, you can't seriously wonder why people are still so bitter at you people.

It's Damage Control.

More like damaging even more what was already broken....they could have saved that ending(destroy) with the EC...they chose not to for what ever CRAZY reason ....

I'm sure at the time they thought they were saving a lot of what is about as green as your sick smiley.

Modifié par Lunch Box1912, 03 octobre 2012 - 09:48 .

[jakal66]

May I add that my complaint is mainly due to the decision of not showing sheppard's true fate after high EMS Destroy scene.Other than that i am "ok" with the EC.But when they promised closure the first thing that came on my mind was " surely they'll expand on that"...
Boy was I wrong....