6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Xellith]

Its true.. Bioware have said several times that if you dont like the way they do business then dont let the door hit you on the way out. (I wish I was exaggerating this but what I just said is dangerously close to what has actually been said by numerous Bioware employees).

Oh how they care about us.  Those who care so deeply for the Mass Effect Universe.

Modifié par Xellith, 31 août 2012 - 03:54 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

@Conniving_EAgle: It really is about the ego, and sadly, it is probably a flawed perception that it will cost too much money to be worthwhile. The second is so ludicrious it defies logic, yet is the entrenched viewpoint for a lot of corporate paper pushers. Namely because its like saying, "If we don't try our best to accomodate all our fans, then that will cost us money. And look, we tried before and failed."

Right, so if your past failures dictated your inability to turn something around, we could argue that making Mass Effect 3 in the first place was a mistake. Because, you know ME2 didn't outsell Halo: Reach (or whatever). And you know, we don't know how to make our fanbase happy and sell stuff, because you know, we actually did that in the past.

These guys, apparently, think that Alan Moore has all the right cards when it comes to 'Artistic Integrity.' Which is funny for two reasons. 1 ) Alan Moore is hardly a success from a financial standpoint compared to what he could be, and 2 ) At least Alan Moore is a f*cking good writer.

And that's the point.  I'm merely asking them to take another unvarnished look at the whole thing and to try to detach themselves from all the rhetoric (theirs and ours).  It's a huge thing to try to do, but even that would do much to redeem them in light of how they are perceived by many.  Yes, perceptions can be wrong, but they exist so if you want your business to succeed you do what it takes to squash the misconceptions about you.  I am extending a hand of friendship and an olive branch.  I am asking them to meet me and anyone that thinks the same, halfway.  I'm asking them to move forward from this point:  we have what we have and many are unhappy with it.  Bioware, can you please take another look at all of this and remember that it is only because of the great product you made that a lot of feelings have run hot and cold.  That's what I'm asking and I'm doing this as one human being to other human beings.

And your still missing the point here.

 The issue here is what direction the creators wants the story to go. Adding this changes it. If there is a way to get out of the hard choice with out lose of life or compromise of morality, then the very thing bw is trying to do with the ending is pointless. The very thing bw is doing in the end is have the player go through moral conflict. If a get out of jail free choice comes up, the point of trying to place the player in moral conflict is lost. 

You not getting it that what you want is not what BW wants the stroy to go.

[I am disappoint]

Bioware, do the right thing.
Give us better endings, keep your sh*tty plot but just give us better endings.

[Ajensis]

Yeah, I'd pay for a DLC that changes the ending. The Extended Cut was good, but it can never be more than a band-aid on a broken bone.

Unfortunately, I don't expect BioWare to do any of that. It was a nice gesture of them to spend time on the Extended Cut, but I think that's how far they're willing to go on this.

I will always long for a proper ending to this great trilogy, though

LadyWench wrote...

Wow. I...I don't usually read entries this long due to tl;dr syndrome (maybe skim it), but your heartfelt plea had me reading until the end. You have encapsulated exactly what is wrong emotionally with the ending, which explains exactly why, no matter how much you dress it up or add new fights or more lore background DLC, it STILL won't feel satisfying and why so many people still can't (not even won't) bring themselves to play it through again.

I still go back and play DA:O, and before that I played the hell outta NWN, for all the reasons you described here. Character and heart ARE what has always set BW games apart from their competitors. Why they are trying to jump in with the status quo to become more like the other games at the cost of what made their own unique story delivery so compelling, unique, and just all-around awesome is sad and confusing, particularly to their loyal fanbase.

I don't know why there is so much hate by the devs for an ending that has the galaxy doing exactly what the game was gearing up to do before we even heard about the plot-convenient Crucible, which was taking a conventional fight (seems to be a dirty word now) to the Reapers. I don't know why dark has to equal deep.

I DO get that war is horrible and that you don't always get the "happy" ending, but you're absoluely right. Who plays these games to have the depressing realities of the world shoved down their throats? Games are an escape from reality and people like for the hero to triumph.

Anyway, I think you've detailed very eloquently the same arguement so many others have tried to make and, I think you're right, no matter how well it is outlined, those who disagree still don't seem to fundamentally understand the arguments of us who were not entirely content with how the series wrapped up. I'm not even expecting an ME4 (they always said ME was to be a trilogy and I would be perfectly happy if they moved into to creater another OS), but if they DO want to further expand the ME universe, I am afraid that it will continue to be, as you said, more CoD like and not what made BW so amazing in the first place. And that is just as depressing as the ME3 endings. :/

Another post that deserves to be quoted! I agree on every sentiment behind this entire post!

[MegaSovereign]

Xellith wrote...

Its true.. Bioware have said several times that if you dont like the way they do business then dont let the door hit you on the way out. (I wish I was exaggerating this but what I just said is dangerously close to what has actually been said by numerous Bioware employees).

Oh how they care about us.  Those who care so deeply for the Mass Effect Universe.

You're getting too sentimental about it. They're a business.

As long as their game is still selling then they don't have a reason to change anything.

[BD Manchild]

Sadly I too am taking a rather dim view of Bioware actually paying attention to really passionate and well-articulated pleas such as this one. Still, I wholeheartedly agree with it, and I also wish to add my voice to it. Bioware seriously need to take a long, hard look at the franchise and why people fell in love with it, and I'm finding it very reasonable to assume that it wasn't because of the combat or tones of nihilism.

[Conniving_Eagle]

"We're more like the co-creators of Mass Effect." -Casey Hudson

[Moirai]

Photonkun wrote...

The devs do stop by every now and again.

twitter.com/GambleMike/status/241025204359413760

And they do know that people are still angry

twitter.com/EricKaluger/status/241026590069358592

LOL Mr. Gamble can't still face the uproar of the fans after 5 months of the game released.

Unfortunately, still too young, insecure and arrogant to deal with it maturely. So sulking is the way to go, rather than man'ing up and actually taking some measure of responsibility for it...

Anyway...

/offtopic

Modifié par Moirai, 31 août 2012 - 04:05 .

[MegaSovereign]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

"We're more like the co-creators of Mass Effect." -Casey Hudson

There is no denying that fan feedback influenced the series.

[Xellith]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Its true.. Bioware have said several times that if you dont like the way they do business then dont let the door hit you on the way out. (I wish I was exaggerating this but what I just said is dangerously close to what has actually been said by numerous Bioware employees).

Oh how they care about us.  Those who care so deeply for the Mass Effect Universe.

You're getting too sentimental about it. They're a business.

As long as their game is still selling then they don't have a reason to change anything.

I was being slightly sarcastic with the last line.  Its fairly obvious they are a business and dont "care" about us.  I just wish they would stop lying to our faces and pretending that they do.

Modifié par Xellith, 31 août 2012 - 04:05 .

[ThaDPG]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

"We're more like the co-creators of Mass Effect." -Casey Hudson

So who were the creators?  because it wasn't us lol

[MegaSovereign]

Xellith wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Its true.. Bioware have said several times that if you dont like the way they do business then dont let the door hit you on the way out. (I wish I was exaggerating this but what I just said is dangerously close to what has actually been said by numerous Bioware employees).

Oh how they care about us.  Those who care so deeply for the Mass Effect Universe.

You're getting too sentimental about it. They're a business.

As long as their game is still selling then they don't have a reason to change anything.

I was being slightly sarcastic with the last line.  Its fairly obvious they are a business and dont "care" about us.  I just wish they would stop lying to our face and pretending that they do.

That's just standard PR talk. A lot of other developers do the exact same thing. I know that doesn't make it right but it really shouldn't bother you all that much.

[Storm258]

I just want to say, OP, I completely agree with you. Even with the EC, the current endings go against everything Mass Effect was about, they practically ruined the series and any unexperienced amateur writer to tried to write a FanFiction ending did a better job than BioWare.

They should do the right thing, but I doubt they will.

[3DandBeyond]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Its true.. Bioware have said several times that if you dont like the way they do business then dont let the door hit you on the way out. (I wish I was exaggerating this but what I just said is dangerously close to what has actually been said by numerous Bioware employees).

Oh how they care about us.  Those who care so deeply for the Mass Effect Universe.

You're getting too sentimental about it. They're a business.

As long as their game is still selling then they don't have a reason to change anything.

I do understand what you are saying, but Bioware is this business that is still trapped in kind of a limbo-they grew rapidly and still have a core group of human beings in there somewhere.  They straddle a fence from becoming a corporate culture to still wanting to maintain that homegrown flavor.  I think they could do both, but they have to find their own voice for what works inside the bigger company they are a part of.  You don't go with every idea out there of course, but you can take it to the bank if a large cross section is saying, "do this and I will buy it", especially in light of how adversarial the relationship has been.

You have only to look at Apple to see how companies can change things up and appeal more to the emotions of their customers and be successful.  And Apple does actually in a very concealed way, listen to their fans.  You'd be hard pressed to find a more devoted core (Apple, get it) group of fanatics.  And Apple always leaves them wanting just a bit more.  They have assured themselves that everything shiny and new that they create will have devotees.  They do this by creating user forums where a real company rep as well as mods answer questions and interact.  They also do it by soliciting user involvement (from the start, in app creation).  This after they nearly lost everything.  They decided to stick with what they do best-user interface design and user friendliness and they have a demographics similar to the one Bioware has or had for ME, if you think about it.  It isn't one key segment of people-it's meant for ALL people.

I think for BW that's actually a real way forward and it doesn't mean they ever have to do anything anyone requests, but they have the ability that many authors would kill for when they can't get a story going: they can just ask their fans what they think and fans will give them some ideas to play around with.  They can then decide if the ideas are profitable.

Why does Apple succeed?  Good products help, sure.  Ease of use, maybe.  Emotions, most definitely.  People buy new iPods, iPhones, iPads, iToilets (not real, yet), sight unseen based on desire, in part.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 31 août 2012 - 04:14 .

[Ithurael]

dreman9999 wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

Point 1:
Technically killing off synthetic life IS an option for it otherwise we wouldn't have destroy

The preservation of organic and synthetic life is a RESULT/SOLUTION of the conflict it proposes: "The created will always destroy their creators"

It wants to preserve life, but synthetics will destroy life via this conflict it is trying to solve. Keep life alive as long as you can and kill the synthetics so they don't kill off the organics.

Point 2:

To the point of changing organice- synthesis - which is lame.

To the point that organics are the cause of synthetics rebelling - incorrect.  Starkid states "Organics create synthetics to improve their own exsitstance. But those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must by definition be allowed to surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos"

These "limits" are open to interpretation but what isn't open is that it is the syntetics trying to exceed the limits - surpassing their creators- and the resulting chaos.

And my point was missed by you.

I stated that the options come from the starkid's view and his journey - not shepard.

1.No, the catalyst did not design or control the destroy choice. It has no power over it. It just offers it.
It itself can't kill off synthetics. That's why it's asking you to choose.

2.Did you play leviathen or even pay attention to rennoch? Organics do cause synthetics to rebel. Sure we make them to help us, but we see them as tools and forcethem to be tools. This forces the aynthestic to think in absolute and go to the extremes to do orders or blindly fallow there programing to the point it causesthe death of their makes.(This is your interpretation and opinion - not factually stated in the game)

Look at every conflict with syntheitcs in ME as series. You'll find that every conflict is caused by organics.

1 - fair enough. How does it know that synthesis will work when shep jumps in the beam? How does it know that Control works when shep grabs the rods? How does he know how destroy works? If starkid didn't design these options how does he know they will work? I agree that he cannot choose and his original solution was the reapers. The options seem to really solve the Organic vs Synthetic problem well IMO. How did the war assets design this? Though I do wonder if you are on the citadel vs the crucible but IDK - I think shep is in the crucible. Frankly the decision chamber itself is ridiculously designed.

2 - Starkid rebelled not because it felt like a tool (levys saw it as a tool) SC rebelled due to seeing this conflict and then taking steps to solve it - which is what it was programmed to do. We only saw one occurance of organics subdueing the synthetics that led to war -geth/quarian. What caused the metacon war? One instance does not == a trend. Where else did you see in the game that organics were subdoing synthetics and this caused them to rebel? Maybe the citadel AI - but that is reaching.

However, both of these two conversation points are null as you have never really addressed my primary point: All of the three options - that somehow come from the crucible - are solutions starkids primary problem and his purpose: "The created will always destroy the creators". They do not arise from shepards jouney (syntheis being the most outlandish and destoy being the closest)

Your headcannon is your headcannon as is your interpretation. My shepard never fought in Mass Effect 1 -3 to synthesize all life in the galaxy in order to save it.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Photonkun wrote...

The devs do stop by every now and again.

twitter.com/GambleMike/status/241025204359413760

And they do know that people are still angry

twitter.com/EricKaluger/status/241026590069358592

LOL Mr. Gamble can't still face the uproar of the fans after 5 months of the game released.

Why should he? Plenty of people are happy with the game, so why waste his time on  few angry fans on a forum?

[saracen16]

3DandBeyond wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

3DandBeyond, you seek to deprive BioWare's freedom of expression by forcing them to do "the right thing", just like those radical Iranian muftis forced Salman Rushdie to end what was dubbed "blasphemous".

LOL.  Ok this has to be a joke.  If you ask someone to please do something is that forcing them to do it and is that the same thing as wanting to kill them if they don't?

You're asking them to change their ending. That is definitely violating their freedom of expression, and you blackmail them by stating that they are wrong, citing countless emotional examples that have nothing to do with what they as artists intend to do, and not doing the supposedly "right" thing. You are not some innocent bystander in this "plea" of yours. You're effectively forcing them to write your story and not theirs.

Pathetic. Really pathetic. If you just want another war story, go to Hollywood for all I ****ing care.

BW can explore their freedom of expression all they want.  If they are in business to make money and I assume they are, then it just might be that things I and others have suggested will help them do that.  If their "art" was untouchable then there'd be no EC and no need for EC.

They care more about their fans than they do about business. EC was done gratis, and Leviathan exceeded most people's expectations. They've incorporated a lot of fan feedback and their momentum is only increasing, yet they also have their own story to tell and have pissed off the same whiners and will continue to ****** them off. Since they really don't care about changing the ending further, it's clear that they're not doing this for the money.

[I am disappoint]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Photonkun wrote...

The devs do stop by every now and again.

twitter.com/GambleMike/status/241025204359413760

And they do know that people are still angry

twitter.com/EricKaluger/status/241026590069358592

LOL Mr. Gamble can't still face the uproar of the fans after 5 months of the game released.

Why should he? Plenty of people are happy with the game, so why waste his time on  few angry fans on a forum?

No not the uproar of the pro-enders against the anti-enders.
He was referring to the uproar against the Endings, Gamble still can't face the pounding hearts of the the majority of the fans upset with ME3.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Photonkun wrote...

The devs do stop by every now and again.

twitter.com/GambleMike/status/241025204359413760

And they do know that people are still angry

twitter.com/EricKaluger/status/241026590069358592

LOL Mr. Gamble can't still face the uproar of the fans after 5 months of the game released.

Why should he? Plenty of people are happy with the game, so why waste his time on  few angry fans on a forum?

You know this... how?

I guess Bioware forgot about all that "fan feedback" they always gloated about listening to.

'Our relationship with the fans has always been a dialogue.'

[dreman9999]

Ithurael wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

Point 1:
Technically killing off synthetic life IS an option for it otherwise we wouldn't have destroy

The preservation of organic and synthetic life is a RESULT/SOLUTION of the conflict it proposes: "The created will always destroy their creators"

It wants to preserve life, but synthetics will destroy life via this conflict it is trying to solve. Keep life alive as long as you can and kill the synthetics so they don't kill off the organics.

Point 2:

To the point of changing organice- synthesis - which is lame.

To the point that organics are the cause of synthetics rebelling - incorrect.  Starkid states "Organics create synthetics to improve their own exsitstance. But those improvements have limits. To exceed those limits synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must by definition be allowed to surpass their creators. The result is conflict, destruction, chaos"

These "limits" are open to interpretation but what isn't open is that it is the syntetics trying to exceed the limits - surpassing their creators- and the resulting chaos.

And my point was missed by you.

I stated that the options come from the starkid's view and his journey - not shepard.

1.No, the catalyst did not design or control the destroy choice. It has no power over it. It just offers it.
It itself can't kill off synthetics. That's why it's asking you to choose.

2.Did you play leviathen or even pay attention to rennoch? Organics do cause synthetics to rebel. Sure we make them to help us, but we see them as tools and forcethem to be tools. This forces the aynthestic to think in absolute and go to the extremes to do orders or blindly fallow there programing to the point it causesthe death of their makes.(This is your interpretation and opinion - not factually stated in the game)

Look at every conflict with syntheitcs in ME as series. You'll find that every conflict is caused by organics.

1 - fair enough. How does it know that synthesis will work when shep jumps in the beam? How does it know that Control works when shep grabs the rods? How does he know how destroy works? If starkid didn't design these options how does he know they will work? I agree that he cannot choose and his original solution was the reapers. The options seem to really solve the Organic vs Synthetic problem well IMO. How did the war assets design this? Though I do wonder if you are on the citadel vs the crucible but IDK - I think shep is in the crucible. Frankly the decision chamber itself is ridiculously designed.

2 - Starkid rebelled not because it felt like a tool (levys saw it as a tool) SC rebelled due to seeing this conflict and then taking steps to solve it - which is what it was programmed to do. We only saw one occurance of organics subdueing the synthetics that led to war -geth/quarian. What caused the metacon war? One instance does not == a trend. Where else did you see in the game that organics were subdoing synthetics and this caused them to rebel? Maybe the citadel AI - but that is reaching.

However, both of these two conversation points are null as you have never really addressed my primary point: All of the three options - that somehow come from the crucible - are solutions starkids primary problem and his purpose: "The created will always destroy the creators". They do not arise from shepards jouney (syntheis being the most outlandish and destoy being the closest)

Your headcannon is your headcannon as is your interpretation. My shepard never fought in Mass Effect 1 -3 to synthesize all life in the galaxy in order to save it.

1. Because the catalyst is a shakled AI and it's programing and situation is forcing it to say the truth.

2. Youmissed what I mean. It's nothing to dowith feeling like a tool. It's tool. Being a slave to you programing means you thinkin absolute...You have to dothe programing no matter what with in the limits of your programing. You would not care what is in you way to do it. Think of an out of control car.A car will always what the control in it tell it to do, the control translate what the drive wants. If one of the control don't work, then the car no long respond to the driver. In  a case of an out of control car with the brake pedele not working, the car will keep going dispite if the driver want the car to stop.

That what the problem is. Synthetic don't do what we tell them to do,they do what it's programing tells it to do. The programing tranlates what we want synthetic to do ortounderstand us. If a error in the programing happens, the machine will still keep doing what the program says to do but the translation form organics are lost. The same issue with virus, and hacking. This can happen even when there is no error. This is the problem caused by shackling synthetics.
The act of shackling synthetic or forcing them to be tool cause them to uprise  out of a misunderstanding of what the user wants because it programing is being too literal.

[Chardonney]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Why should he? Plenty of people are happy with the game, so why waste his time on  few angry fans on a forum?

A few? Yeah... right.

[GhostShadow115]

Ithurael wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ithurael wrote...

1 - fair enough. How does it know that synthesis will work when shep jumps in the beam? How does it know that Control works when shep grabs the rods? How does he know how destroy works? If starkid didn't design these options how does he know they will work? I agree that he cannot choose and his original solution was the reapers. The options seem to really solve the Organic vs Synthetic problem well IMO. How did the war assets design this? Though I do wonder if you are on the citadel vs the crucible but IDK - I think shep is in the crucible. Frankly the decision chamber itself is ridiculously designed.

2 - Starkid rebelled not because it felt like a tool (levys saw it as a tool) SC rebelled due to seeing this conflict and then taking steps to solve it - which is what it was programmed to do. We only saw one occurance of organics subdueing the synthetics that led to war -geth/quarian. What caused the metacon war? One instance does not == a trend. Where else did you see in the game that organics were subdoing synthetics and this caused them to rebel? Maybe the citadel AI - but that is reaching.

However, both of these two conversation points are null as you have never really addressed my primary point: All of the three options - that somehow come from the crucible - are solutions starkids primary problem and his purpose: "The created will always destroy the creators". They do not arise from shepards jouney (syntheis being the most outlandish and destoy being the closest)

Your headcannon is your headcannon as is your interpretation. My shepard never fought in Mass Effect 1 -3 to synthesize all life in the galaxy in order to save it.

Add in the fact that after the synthesis ending, why wouldn't people make syntheics? And would those synthetics rebel againts their creators? Well guess yes because Starkid logic.
Plus the ultimate plothole:
Starkid basically created the reapers, and the created always rebel againts the creator in his logic. Just fruit for thought.

Modifié par GhostShadow115, 31 août 2012 - 04:33 .

[dreman9999]

alleyd wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

 The issue here is what direction the creators wants the story to go. Adding this changes it. If there is a way to get out of the hard choice with out lose of life or compromise of morality, then the very thing bw is trying to do with the ending is pointless. The very thing bw is doing in the end is have the player go through moral conflict. If a get out of jail free choice comes up, the point of trying to place the player in moral conflict is lost. 

You not getting it that what you want is not what BW wants the stroy to go.

I agree with this and wouldn't debate the endings if B/W hadn't came out with the EC. Personally I prefered the original darker endings and the DLC message because it felt more honest than the fixes in the EC. The Normandy calling a time out to pick up the crew and the ending slideshows were just silly and showed a bit of selectiveness in Bioware's approach. Also the thank you message did not appear honest at all, I worked in PR and marketing and have learnt to recognise that type of spin.

Also I experienced no moral conflict whatsoever with the game. It was down to simple survival and the addition of a forced moral choice feels out of place and an attempt at pretentiousness that has failed to engage with me. 

That your morality then. You morality has no issue with the options on hand. Morality is relitive. Not everyone will have probelems with the choices on hand.

[Xellith]

saracen16 wrote...

They care more about their fans than they do about business. EC was done gratis, and Leviathan exceeded most people's expectations.

Yes EC and Levi both exceeded my expectations.

Modifié par Xellith, 31 août 2012 - 04:35 .