6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Xellith]

So the main points to take away from mass effect are:
"Do whatever. Nothing will ever change. At the end of the day what will be will be no matter what you do to change your 'fate'"

and

"Life sucks and then stuff goes full retard just before you die".

Modifié par Xellith, 01 septembre 2012 - 02:05 .

[Dragoonlordz]

plfranke wrote...

They actually are changing their tune dragoonlordz. At first it was we have a big plan for dlc, gonna be lots of dlc. Now it's, dlc depends on how Leviathan goes.

I remember them saying they wanted to discuss and were open to ideas about the ending prior to EC with the caveat of allowing for the majority of hyperbole and hysteria to die down first along with giving more people time to play it. Whether you think they did or did not is a separate issue not relating to what they said of which I am merely mentioning. Then EC was released and said that was it for ending changing DLC outside of minor dialogue and such. In one case seemed like there was a grey area prior to EC, but the way I see it that is no longer in place post EC. This is going on what they said and my interpretation of it only. An opinion based on what was said.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 septembre 2012 - 02:05 .

[Jere85]

I hope this thread gets some attention from BW, it deserves it.

Modifié par Jere85, 01 septembre 2012 - 02:10 .

[Dragoonlordz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

So if they answer in this thread they will be doing no more ending DLC, honest question... whether you will accept that or continue asking. I ask because if they say they do not want to do something and you ignore that is it really them not listening and tuning someone out or the other way around with your dismissing their decision and tuning out their answers? Also do not forget it is more than just changing someone's mind, costs them vastly more time and money to make something than you play or buy it even if they did want to do more ending related DLC which they said they do not.

You act like I'm asking them to rewrite the game and I'm not, but many have no problem with them continuing with MP development when that could also have been used to do other things.  I'm asking them to look at it.  And I've suggested a really non-invasive and minimally expensive way they could do it, but also I'm asking if they will look at the requests for other content.  That doesn't at all preclude them from making what you might want-but if they don't make oodles of money on current DLC, you might be lucky to see more.  What I'm suggesting also might make the DLC you want possible.  I don't know why you can't see that.  The more people that buy what they sell, the more content they will see as viable and they will make.

How much and what DLC do you think they have planned currently?  How much of it for SP?  Do you ever express your wish for DLC?  If they don't deliver it in the next DLC, will you stop requesting it?

My plea here is for them to revisit the notion-that's what I've said.  That doesn't mean I'll stop asking for added content if they say no (though I might depending on who might possibly answer and what s/he might say or how s/he says it).  I'm not here demanding anything.  And I'm not saying for them to please do this or that in a month or you are poopie heads.  My plea is for them to consider fan videos, the love for this series and the characters, the unique thing they created with ME and the themes they made us believe in and the people they created that we cared about.

My "one last plea" was an appeal to them as human beings who created something that people did appreciate-and I'm asking them to look at it again.

I'm not saying they don't listen.  I am saying they maybe are not listening effectively.  We send a lot of noise their way, but even noise has a purpose sometimes or a message, even if it's a warning that what you are doing is harmful-in this case, less profitable as well as less inclusive of the fan base they created.

I asked for a trial DLC and took part many times in a thread about that, in fact one of the major contributers and reasonable people there. I did not get it, but I accepted that they did not want to do it. I don't have to like everything about this game, there are as I said to AFW lot's of things I did not like but I respect their right to decide what to add or not in their product as they have said many times they respect my right to no longer buy games from them if I so chose.

I however buy games based on individual basis, while I might not like one I might like the next one they make. I leave feedback, I discuss but if they say no I respect their choice. It is their choice and on their shoulders the consequence of that choice. Everytime a developer makes something I do not like I sell it on ebay and buy something else I might enjoy more.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 septembre 2012 - 02:14 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Chris Preistly wrote...

"I answered this. There will be no more new endings. I used the "quotes" as we consider the Extended Cut the ending, the finale, the stop whatever you want to call it of the ending of Mass Effect 3. We do not plan to make new endings, give more closure to the endings, adding or subtracting to or from the endings, etc. We are done with the endings.   

That said, we are working on some very cool downloadable story based single player content. In these DLCs there will certainly be elements that will effect the end of the game. As Mike Gamble already said, depending on what you do in Leviathan there will be new dialog with the Catalyst at the end of the game. These sorts of elements are definitely possible for future DLC as well.   

And for all those stating "Well if you don't X I am not going to buy another game/DLC/etc from BioWare again". I'm sorry you feel that way, but I understand it. That is your ability as a consumer. If a company (us, a burger joint, a shoe store, etc) does not live up to your expectations, you go elsewhere. I get it and I do the same thing. I do not fault anyone for feeling this way. Hopefully, the DLC we come up with or a future BioWare title will make you want to give us another try.   

However, if you don't like it, feel free to leave. I'm sorry we have disappointed you and as I said, we'll try to make better content or games in the future that you will hopefully enjoy. No one if forced to be here. You don't like it, feel free to take your business elsewhere and stop trying to ruin the funn and enjoyment for those people who do enjoy ME3 and the DLC.   

Done now. "

Do you want to know where this is bad? From a marketing standpoint we can now tell the 26 other non-Bioware customers who are considering becoming Bioware customers about this experience and they won't become Bioware customers. This is a very bad attitude. This is the reason North America is getting killed by Asia in business and manufacturing. We cannot compete in price so we have to compete in customer service. Lose that and we lost the economic war. Yet for some reason some European companies seem to do just fine.

This is why German software company that makes competing software to American bloatware company gets my business: I can still text them on my PC and get a tech support person who is helpful and solves the problem. My tech support is free. I don't have to pay a subcription for tech support like I do with bloatware. I don't have to have my computer configured a certain way like I do with bloatware. I don't get the answer "turn off that feature" as a solution like I do with bloatware.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 01 septembre 2012 - 02:15 .

[3DandBeyond]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

plfranke wrote...

They actually are changing their tune dragoonlordz. At first it was we have a big plan for dlc, gonna be lots of dlc. Now it's, dlc depends on how Leviathan goes.

I remember them saying they wanted to discuss and were open to ideas about the ending prior to EC with the caveat of allowing for the majority of hyperbole and hysteria to die down first along with giving more people time to play it. Whether you think they did or did not is a separate issue not relating to what they said of which I am merely mentioning. Then EC was released and said that was it for ending changing DLC outside of minor dialogue and such. In one case seemed like there was a grey area prior to EC, but the way I see it that is no longer in place post EC. This is going on what they said and my interpretation of it only. An opinion based on what was said.

This is my point about listening effectively.  You can't do so with emotions all wrapped up in it.  You have to step back, take a deep breath, and wade into even things you don't like to hear.  The people that only ever agree with you will tell you nothing.  Others that are over the top critical are most likely speaking with their frustrations and emotion, but they might say something of value.  If you tune out opposing voices, you will start to believe your own press releases.

I'm not saying they did this, but I participated in the "yes, we're listening" thread and I know that a lot of what went into the EC were things that people guessed the endings meant and hoped they wouldn't use.  Refuse or shooting the kid was something that BW half-used.  I have no doubt they listen, but when all they can say about this site is that people are insulting them (I couldn't find where someone insulted Mike Gamble because usually it's always Mac and Casey), I think they have ignored much that's in between the lines.

If I create something I want to sell, I don't expect anyone to love me.  I know they won't like the price, it may be the wrong color, size, pattern, shape, or something.  But they may still like it enough to buy it.  If they tell me what they didn't like, it may help me if other people have said the same thing.  But not everyone is going to walk up to me and say in plain English and in a civil way, "I would prefer if this was smaller and green".  People don't act like that.  They grumble, they gripe, the hesitate.  I don't expect perfection.

[Dragoonlordz]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Chris Preistly wrote...

"I answered this. There will be no more new endings. I used the "quotes" as we consider the Extended Cut the ending, the finale, the stop whatever you want to call it of the ending of Mass Effect 3. We do not plan to make new endings, give more closure to the endings, adding or subtracting to or from the endings, etc. We are done with the endings.   

That said, we are working on some very cool downloadable story based single player content. In these DLCs there will certainly be elements that will effect the end of the game. As Mike Gamble already said, depending on what you do in Leviathan there will be new dialog with the Catalyst at the end of the game. These sorts of elements are definitely possible for future DLC as well.   

And for all those stating "Well if you don't X I am not going to buy another game/DLC/etc from BioWare again". I'm sorry you feel that way, but I understand it. That is your ability as a consumer. If a company (us, a burger joint, a shoe store, etc) does not live up to your expectations, you go elsewhere. I get it and I do the same thing. I do not fault anyone for feeling this way. Hopefully, the DLC we come up with or a future BioWare title will make you want to give us another try.   

However, if you don't like it, feel free to leave. I'm sorry we have disappointed you and as I said, we'll try to make better content or games in the future that you will hopefully enjoy. No one if forced to be here. You don't like it, feel free to take your business elsewhere and stop trying to ruin the funn and enjoyment for those people who do enjoy ME3 and the DLC.   

Done now. "

Do you want to know where this is bad? From a marketing standpoint we can now tell the 26 other non-Bioware customers who are considering becoming Bioware customers about this experience and they won't become Bioware customers. This is a very bad attitude. This is the reason North America is getting killed by Asia in business and manufacturing. We cannot compete in price so we have to compete in customer service. Lose that and we lost the economic war.

This is why German software company that makes competing software to American bloatware company gets my business: I can still text them on my PC and get a tech support person who is helpful and solves the problem. My tech support is free. I don't have to pay a subcription for tech support like I do with bloatware. I don't have to have my computer configured a certain way like I do with bloatware. I don't get the answer "turn off that feature" as a solution like I do with bloatware.

No it is not just price. I question your grasp on economics for saying it is. The reason for Asia's and specifically China's dominance at the moment is not just prices but cheap labour, long hours and selling more for cheaper prices combined with buying less from the west too. Western firms cannot compete when their goods are not being bought by probably the biggest economic powehouse right now on the world stage and that powerhouse selling their products cheaper than can be produced over here is merely part of the issue. No amount of customer service will help you and most companies are still having their customer service handled by the east and middle east because they will do more to please you than the western counterparts due to that cheap labour job security is low so they put in the extra effort in order to keep paychecks coming over there more so than the lazy people over here.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 septembre 2012 - 02:26 .

[MegaSovereign]

@sH0tgUn jUliA

Pfft. Eastern countries have far worse customer service.

North Americans are a fickle bunch, they'll look for any reason to sue a company. Because of this, North American companies generally care more about customer satisfaction.

No it is not, I question your grasp on economics for saying it is. The reason for Asia's and specifically China's dominance at the moment is cheap labour, long hours and selling more for cheaper prices combined with buying less from the west. Western firms cannot compete when they goods are not being bought by probably the biggest economic powehouse right now on world stage and that nation selling their products cheaper than can be produced over here.

Also this.

[3DandBeyond]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I asked for a trial DLC and took part many times in a thread about that, in fact one of the major contributers and reasonable people there. I did not get it, but I accepted that they did not want to do it. I don't have to like everything about this game, there are as I said to AFW lot's of things I did not like but I respect their right to decide what to add or not in their product as they have said many times they respect my right to no longer buy games from them if I so chose.

I however buy games based on individual basis, while I might not like one I might like the next one they make. I leave feedback, I discuss but if they say no I respect their choice. It is their choice and on their shoulders the consequence of that choice. Everytime a developer makes something I do not like I sell it on ebay and buy something else I might enjoy more.

Good luck selling on ebay in the future when all games are downloads.  Why wouldn't you return the game if it's bad?  The company that made such a bad game learns nothing from you re-selling it.  All you are doing is encouraging them to make poorer and poorer games until they figure out what is the worst pile of garbage someone will pay $60 USD or more for.  That's their tipping point.

And companies that have poor CS track records do not value their customers.  BW suffers from this appearance.  And I have worked in many CS situations as well as those of life and death. 

Companies must determine their first connection or first chance to make a good impression with their customers.  In a lot of places, it's the greeter at the door or the rep on the phone or how friendly your website is.  That first contact will determine a major portion of what that customer thinks of your business.  BW has a presence here. This is their face to the world.  But they use surrogate sites where real discussion is limited. 

So you asked for trial DLC in a thread and then gave up because you didn't get it.  Ok.  I'm not you. And I'm willing to wait for the DLC I'd like to see.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 01 septembre 2012 - 02:41 .

[Xellith]

Valmarn wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...You do realize they've already stated that beyond the EC they don't plan to change the endings. Maybe adjust dialog (like they did with Leviathan), which I'd expect. But you're never going to get a full adjustment. You're going to have to accept the endings as they are.

It wouldn't be the first time that they went back on something that they said.

Bioware flip flop about as much as Mitt Romney.

[3DandBeyond]

Dragoonlordz wrote...



No it is not just price. I question your grasp on economics for saying it is. The reason for Asia's and specifically China's dominance at the moment is not just prices but cheap labour, long hours and selling more for cheaper prices combined with buying less from the west too. Western firms cannot compete when their goods are not being bought by probably the biggest economic powehouse right now on the world stage and that powerhouse selling their products cheaper than can be produced over here is merely part of the issue. No amount of customer service will help you and most companies are still having their customer service handled by the east and middle east because they will do more to please you than the western counterparts due to that cheap labour job security is low so they put in the extra effort in order to keep paychecks coming over there more so than the lazy people over here.

It's basically slave labor with a trace amount of oversight geared toward ever cheaper prices.  It's the Walmart effect.

Walmart created this culture that is now adhered to by almost all products out there.  They can make or break a company by selling or dropping their product line.  And they used this to send labor overseas.  They would tell a manufacturer that they must sell their product for less each year or so or they would no longer sell it at Walmart.  Levi Strauss and Husky bikes are 2 big brands that were forced to go to China or go out of business.  The loss of Walmart sales would have ruined them.  Look at Foxconn and thank Apple for that mess. 

And the CS given by some in some of the countries (sometimes through no fault of their own) is often really poor.  Many of the CS reps in some of the countries work in "farms" where they handle calls from multiple companies.  They also are really sometimes not supervised very well.  I was on one electronic's website and a person kept posting there with a tagline for Chinese Knockoff iPads.  That person was constantly swearing at people posting for tech help on the site and then making things up in answers-things that could have ruined their devices.  Found out the person was working in CS for the company (that owned the website) in the Phillippines-the person was posting on work time.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Just to keep it real. I'm perhaps pleading with Bioware to ask themselves if this is how they saw it when they said they knew people would have a hard time saying goodbye to Shepard.

I want them to ask themselves is this what they hoped would happen the first time they played a video game or when they had a glimmer of an idea for a space opera game?

Did they think that endings that don't conclude the hero's story arc in each obviously desired way would actually make fans really satisfied?

Bioware, could no one there really understand that fans realized they'd have to say goodbye to Shepard and wanted some authentic ways to do it-a death for a real, bittersweet reason or a life that Shepard might finally get to live. And that living Shepard would be the driving force behind helping form unity needed for rebuilding a sad, depressing, hurt galaxy.

Bioware, could no one there understand that Shepard sold ME games? The face was how we saw Shepard. The face was so important that people became really upset when the import didn't work. Part of what we feel, but not the only part is a desire to say goodbye to Shepard and also a goodbye to all the people we've "met" in this galaxy, this time.

The best thing ME ever did was to focus the story on the characters. That was what set it apart from other RPGs. It was like living for a time within the story because that created the emotional attachment. No, it's not real life-it is a story. But for many of us, it has no end, because the characters we lived with, fought with, fought for, and even cared about, can't embrace those choices. Others can, but that is also what was so great about ME: diversity. It was just as much exemplified outside the game as in. I appreciate that they like and feel the choices ring true. But we are not the same and so a game that always was about that diversity and our different choices, ends up leaving many of us on the outside.

We want to finish the game and I can't believe you couldn't see that a great many people would want one Shepard lives ending along with the Shepard dies endings. And that they'd want that Shepard lives one to make some sense, not force some horrid immoral choice upon them. It's a game-please take another look and bring back the fun and a path to a win. Sure, Shepard can die, but can't there also be one possible path to life and the aftermath? Please.

You know I think where you and I think alike here is that you and I wanted to be able to look back a couple years down the road and say, "Yeah, Mass Effect? That was a great story. A great hero and it had a great ending."

And we can't do that.

Yet, I can still look back fondly at the I don't know how many hundred hours I played Morrowind/Tribunal/Bloodmoon which really didn't even have an end; and the however hundreds of hours I played Oblivion/Shivering Isles/Knights of the Nine adventure. I can look back on those and smile. I'm not done with Skyrim.

I can look back on ME1 and smile. I can look back on ME2 and smile (now that Arrival is removed from my HD).

Can't do that with the trilogy though. Put the entire trilogy together and it's not happy. It doesn't end well.

And you know BioWare, if I think about it has always had a lot of darkness in their stories. Maybe they're just not the game company for me. Bethesda has darkness but they always have a lot of humor, even in Fallout (listen to the supermutants talk). Some of it really dumb and in Skyrim the humor is grim, but it's there. Yes Commander Shepard, I used to be a spectre like you, but then I took a cryo round in the knee.

[Dragoonlordz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I asked for a trial DLC and took part many times in a thread about that, in fact one of the major contributers and reasonable people there. I did not get it, but I accepted that they did not want to do it. I don't have to like everything about this game, there are as I said to AFW lot's of things I did not like but I respect their right to decide what to add or not in their product as they have said many times they respect my right to no longer buy games from them if I so chose.

I however buy games based on individual basis, while I might not like one I might like the next one they make. I leave feedback, I discuss but if they say no I respect their choice. It is their choice and on their shoulders the consequence of that choice. Everytime a developer makes something I do not like I sell it on ebay and buy something else I might enjoy more.

Good luck selling on ebay in the future when all games are downloads.  Why wouldn't you return the game if it's bad?  The company that made such a bad game learns nothing from you re-selling it.  All you are doing is encouraging them to make poorer and poorer games until the figure out what is the worst pile of garbage someone will pay $60 USD or more for.  That's their tipping point.

And companies that have poor CS track records do not value their customers.  BW suffers from this appearance.  And I have worked in many CS situations as well as those of life and death. 

Companies must determine their first connection or first chance to make a good impression with their customers.  In a lot of places, it's the greeter at the door or the rep on the phone or how friendly your website is.  That first contact will determine a major portion of what that customer thinks of your business.  BW has a presence here. This is their face to the world.  But they use surrogate sites where real discussion is limited. 

So you asked for trial DLC in a thread and then gave up because you didn't get it.  Ok.  I'm not you. And I'm willing to wait for the DLC I'd like to see.

Firstly this. Secondly I'm not out to hurt a company if I do not like a game. I am not that petty trying to damage them financially and deliberately because the cause and effect of that is hurting the people who enjoyed that product. I leave feedback and upto them if wish to listen or not. If they choose not to and their next game is not to my liking then I can buy my next game instead from someone else. I am not going to cry over it. You seem to have a very distorted view of Bioware, they actually enjoy making their games and they do what they can and what they want to do within the deadlines they have.

Do not mistake making something you do not like to mean they do not like to make games they think are good and that hope you 'might' like to buy or play. If they were just in it for the money which you imply then they would not be making RPG's. RPG's is while not as niché a market as used to be, it pales in comparrison to other genres for income can generate.

You say I gave up, I say respected their choice and never threw a hissy fit or tantrum because I did not get something I would of liked. Whether or not I get something in a game is not so important that they have to give it to me, it's a video game. I enjoy it or I do not. If I do then great, if not then so be it I will leave feedback and hope the next one does cater more to my tastes. My life goes on, other things will entertain me and it is not the end of the world.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 septembre 2012 - 02:58 .

[Argetfalcon]

i support this thread

[3DandBeyond]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Firstly this. Secondly I'm not out to hurt a company if I do not like a game. I am not that petty. I leave feedback and upto them if wish to listen or not. If they choose not to then I can buy my next games from someone else. I am not going to cry over it. You seem to have a very distorted view of Bioware, they actually enjoy making their games and they do what they can and what they want to do within the deadlines they have.

Do not mistake making something you do not like to mean they do not like to make games they think are good and that hope you 'might' like to buy or play. If they were just in it for the money which you imply then they would not be making RPG's. RPG's is while not as niche a maket as used to be, it pales in comparrison to other genres for income can generate.

You say I gave up, I say respected their choice and never threw a hissy fit or tantrum because I did not get something I would of liked. Whether or not I get something in a game is not so important that they have to give it to me, it's a video game. I enjoy it or I do not. If I do then great, if not then so be it. My life goes on, other things will entertain me and it is not the end of the world.

Ok, this is ridiculous.  Why would returning a bad game be hurting a company-is it better that people just stop buying their games because they get so bad, and they go out of business?  Or is it better that if they make a poor game you tell them what you didn't like and you return it if it's that bad and convince them to make good games and stay in business?

Deadlines they have are often set up as a way to get a jump on the competition's next release.  But, if a company keeps releasing sloppy, poorly made products just to do that, then why should you reward that?  I personally would rather wait for a well-done product than get something that's rushed out to beat some other company's game.

I was specifically referencing your statement that when you get bad games, you sell them on ebay.  You are part of the problem with videogames today-you don't complain if things are really bad.  You accept whatever is given to you and pass it on to someone else rather than making the company accountable for selling a bad product.  And that's why they will continually seek the lowest quality that will get the best price.

Onto Bioware specifically.  My views are based upon what they've said.  They've not been upfront and honest. 

In the end, it doesn't matter what BW thinks is a good product, unless they do produce junk and people like you buy it and don't complain.  I value my money.  I'd prefer to see BW make great games and stay in business.  Your view of what a customer should do is not helpful to a company and it sounds like you can just throw money around.  For some people the money spent on ME is a lot of money.

According to your attitude in all of this, a dev is allowed to advertise a game as being a great racing game with a lot of realistic futuristic cars and if they decide to sell you instead a game with only one car in it, a dune buggy and it only has one track and it's only time trials, then that's ok.  As long as they get to sell you what they want to sell you.  And the thing to do is to then go and sell it on ebay and never ask them to make better games.

I didn't throw a tantrum or a hissy fit, but I'm done with you.  You are doing exactly what another poster said.  Have fun.

[Linksys17]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Linksys17 wrote...

Honestly the ending sucked but what killed me3 for me was stripping the few RPG elements from me2. me3 just felt like a huge demo where Bioware was showcasing their new combat

Conversation choice isnt a strictly RPG element by the by.  To some it is and to some it isnt as RPGs have long existed in gamng since before choice in what to say and any given time.

But what few RPG elements did they remove?  I would argue most feel ME3 has MORE Rpg elements than two did on tob of having better combat.

From ME2:

1. Well I do consider dialog choices an RPG element IMO

2. Hub worlds

3. terrible journal

4. visiting planets; ME2 at least had some planet and ship side missions, which gave me more incentive to peruse the galaxy map

ME1:

1. Inventory/loot system

2. Open world exploration

3. Customization of Squad; armor-mods, omni tool, and amps

4. conversation game mechanics; more tangible rewards for lesser decisions

The only nice RPGish element they added that I really liked was squadmates talking to each other like in DA or ME1 in those dreaded elevators  

Modifié par Linksys17, 01 septembre 2012 - 03:11 .

[AresKeith]

Linksys17 wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Linksys17 wrote...

Honestly the ending sucked but what killed me3 for me was stripping the few RPG elements from me2. me3 just felt like a huge demo where Bioware was showcasing their new combat

Conversation choice isnt a strictly RPG element by the by.  To some it is and to some it isnt as RPGs have long existed in gamng since before choice in what to say and any given time.

But what few RPG elements did they remove?  I would argue most feel ME3 has MORE Rpg elements than two did on tob of having better combat.

From ME2:

1. Well I do consider dialog choices an RPG element IMO

2. Hub worlds

3. terrible journal

4. visiting planets; ME2 at least had some planet and ship side missions, which gave me more incentive to peruse the galaxy map

ME1:

1. Inventory/loot system

2. Open world exploration

3. Customization of Squad; armor-mods, omni tool, and amps

4. conversation game mechanics; more tangible rewards for lesser decisions

The only nice RPGish element they added that I really liked was squadmates talking to each other like in DA or ME1 in those dreaded elevators  

I liked being able to buy and change my squad's armor, I wish they kept that in and the Spectre Armor for people who kept their Spectre Status

[3DandBeyond]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


You know I think where you and I think alike here is that you and I wanted to be able to look back a couple years down the road and say, "Yeah, Mass Effect? That was a great story. A great hero and it had a great ending."

And we can't do that.

Yet, I can still look back fondly at the I don't know how many hundred hours I played Morrowind/Tribunal/Bloodmoon which really didn't even have an end; and the however hundreds of hours I played Oblivion/Shivering Isles/Knights of the Nine adventure. I can look back on those and smile. I'm not done with Skyrim.

I can look back on ME1 and smile. I can look back on ME2 and smile (now that Arrival is removed from my HD).

Can't do that with the trilogy though. Put the entire trilogy together and it's not happy. It doesn't end well.

And you know BioWare, if I think about it has always had a lot of darkness in their stories. Maybe they're just not the game company for me. Bethesda has darkness but they always have a lot of humor, even in Fallout (listen to the supermutants talk). Some of it really dumb and in Skyrim the humor is grim, but it's there. Yes Commander Shepard, I used to be a spectre like you, but then I took a cryo round in the knee.

Yes, I think that's a great part of it.  I do want something that I can say made ME3 a lot of fun, but the last thing I've seen is what I remember.  I've head canoned plenty and worked some things out in my mind, but that's just it-I've always been a day dreamer and created stories in my head.  I figured this good story would have an ending worthy of the time spent on it-I didn't expect to have to give up Shepard's soul to achieve it.  I don't think you become a servant of evil to stop evil.

I never saw ME as that dark because of the humor it always had.  ME1 wasn't quite so obvious at all times, but I did laugh out loud when the AI wanted to hop on a ship to go join the geth.  ME2 and 3 had humor as well.

I love Bethesda games, warts and all, but of course they are done differently.  The humor is there in Fallout 3 of course.

[Mr.House]

Linksys17 wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Linksys17 wrote...

Honestly the ending sucked but what killed me3 for me was stripping the few RPG elements from me2. me3 just felt like a huge demo where Bioware was showcasing their new combat

Conversation choice isnt a strictly RPG element by the by.  To some it is and to some it isnt as RPGs have long existed in gamng since before choice in what to say and any given time.

But what few RPG elements did they remove?  I would argue most feel ME3 has MORE Rpg elements than two did on tob of having better combat.

From ME2:

1. Well I do consider dialog choices an RPG element IMO

2. Hub worlds

3. terrible journal

4. visiting planets; ME2 at least had some planet and ship side missions, which gave me more incentive to peruse the galaxy map

ME1:

1. Inventory/loot system

2. Open world exploration

3. Customization of Squad; armor-mods, omni tool, and amps

4. conversation game mechanics; more tangible rewards for lesser decisions

The only nice RPGish element they added that I really liked was squadmates talking to each other like in DA or ME1 in those dreaded elevators  

ME3 had a better power system, better selection of weapons, better leveling up system, weapon modding similar to ME and squadmates powers where better handled. Also more armor customization. Sure ME2 had a better dialog system, but in terms of rpg elements as a whole, ME2 was the black sheep. Strong dialog system, but the other elements where downright horrible.

[Conniving_Eagle]

3DandBeyond wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...


You know I think where you and I think alike here is that you and I wanted to be able to look back a couple years down the road and say, "Yeah, Mass Effect? That was a great story. A great hero and it had a great ending."

And we can't do that.

Yet, I can still look back fondly at the I don't know how many hundred hours I played Morrowind/Tribunal/Bloodmoon which really didn't even have an end; and the however hundreds of hours I played Oblivion/Shivering Isles/Knights of the Nine adventure. I can look back on those and smile. I'm not done with Skyrim.

I can look back on ME1 and smile. I can look back on ME2 and smile (now that Arrival is removed from my HD).

Can't do that with the trilogy though. Put the entire trilogy together and it's not happy. It doesn't end well.

And you know BioWare, if I think about it has always had a lot of darkness in their stories. Maybe they're just not the game company for me. Bethesda has darkness but they always have a lot of humor, even in Fallout (listen to the supermutants talk). Some of it really dumb and in Skyrim the humor is grim, but it's there. Yes Commander Shepard, I used to be a spectre like you, but then I took a cryo round in the knee.

Yes, I think that's a great part of it.  I do want something that I can say made ME3 a lot of fun, but the last thing I've seen is what I remember.  I've head canoned plenty and worked some things out in my mind, but that's just it-I've always been a day dreamer and created stories in my head.  I figured this good story would have an ending worthy of the time spent on it-I didn't expect to have to give up Shepard's soul to achieve it.  I don't think you become a servant of evil to stop evil.

I never saw ME as that dark because of the humor it always had.  ME1 wasn't quite so obvious at all times, but I did laugh out loud when the AI wanted to hop on a ship to go join the geth.  ME2 and 3 had humor as well.

I love Bethesda games, warts and all, but of course they are done differently.  The humor is there in Fallout 3 of course.

I echo both of your sentiments.

And for the record, I used to be a believer in Bioware, then I took a Mass Effect 3 ending to the euphoria, followed by several callous "deal with it" statements from them.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 01 septembre 2012 - 03:30 .

[Dragoonlordz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Firstly this. Secondly I'm not out to hurt a company if I do not like a game. I am not that petty. I leave feedback and upto them if wish to listen or not. If they choose not to then I can buy my next games from someone else. I am not going to cry over it. You seem to have a very distorted view of Bioware, they actually enjoy making their games and they do what they can and what they want to do within the deadlines they have.

Do not mistake making something you do not like to mean they do not like to make games they think are good and that hope you 'might' like to buy or play. If they were just in it for the money which you imply then they would not be making RPG's. RPG's is while not as niche a maket as used to be, it pales in comparrison to other genres for income can generate.

You say I gave up, I say respected their choice and never threw a hissy fit or tantrum because I did not get something I would of liked. Whether or not I get something in a game is not so important that they have to give it to me, it's a video game. I enjoy it or I do not. If I do then great, if not then so be it. My life goes on, other things will entertain me and it is not the end of the world.

Ok, this is ridiculous.  Why would returning a bad game be hurting a company-is it better that people just stop buying their games because they get so bad, and they go out of business?  Or is it better that if they make a poor game you tell them what you didn't like and you return it if it's that bad and convince them to make good games and stay in business?

Deadlines they have are often set up as a way to get a jump on the competition's next release.  But, if a company keeps releasing sloppy, poorly made products just to do that, then why should you reward that?  I personally would rather wait for a well-done product than get something that's rushed out to beat some other company's game.

I was specifically referencing your statement that when you get bad games, you sell them on ebay.  You are part of the problem with videogames today-you don't complain if things are really bad.  You accept whatever is given to you and pass it on to someone else rather than making the company accountable for selling a bad product.  And that's why they will continually seek the lowest quality that will get the best price.

Onto Bioware specifically.  My views are based upon what they've said.  They've not been upfront and honest. 

In the end, it doesn't matter what BW thinks is a good product, unless they do produce junk and people like you buy it and don't complain.  I value my money.  I'd prefer to see BW make great games and stay in business.  Your view of what a customer should do is not helpful to a company and it sounds like you can just throw money around.  For some people the money spent on ME is a lot of money.

According to your attitude in all of this, a dev is allowed to advertise a game as being a great racing game with a lot of realistic futuristic cars and if they decide to sell you instead a game with only one car in it, a dune buggy and it only has one track and it's only time trials, then that's ok.  As long as they get to sell you what they want to sell you.  And the thing to do is to then go and sell it on ebay and never ask them to make better games.

I didn't throw a tantrum or a hissy fit, but I'm done with you.  You are doing exactly what another poster said.  Have fun.

I do not care for your propaganda or conspiracy theories, your bad assumptions of what I have said means or your ignorance of the cause and effect of your actions. If something is within the deadline legally for returning an item because the item is faulty or not having contents specified on the packaging I will do so. The packaging is what a purchase legally bound to not what you heard from a dev on a forum which is open to interpretation prior to release. I sell on ebay if past that deadline and it is merely a game I do not enjoy. The game matched the description I read on the site I bought it from and it matched what was said on the packaging of which those are the final deciding factors to which i buy a game and in this case it matched.

What was said on the box was what was in the game and so it then fell into did I enjoy it or not which does not equal refund and becomes resell. One example of this lately was a third purchase of DA:O ultimate edition having owned it on PS3 and 360 I just decided to get a copy on PC. What was advertised on the box and on the site was in that case not in the game meaning the DLC codes did not work. So I tried to get codes from EA which they would not give 5 out of the 7 listed on the box and advert. So I returned it for refund and the store even let me keep the game plus refund. of which I later found a patch which was designed to solve another problem actually also solved this one so the game finally worked as advertised. I got back in touch with seller and refunded them the money because the product now worked as described on the box and product description on site bought from.

I would not look for a refund for my purchase when my reason for expecting something is merely what a single developer said pre-release or based on if I think it was pretty enough for me or never had something was never advertised of having in first place such as what your actually asking for. They NEVER said would get a happy ever after scene with your LI, they never said would be able to win conventionally and on top of that none of what was said of which others are quoting on here was ever written on the box or in any retailer description of the product that I have ever seen. I also do not appreciate your asinine claim that I am whats wrong with videogames today either because it is pure fallacy.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 septembre 2012 - 03:40 .

[AresKeith]

Mr.House wrote...

ME3 had a better power system, better selection of weapons, better leveling up system, weapon modding similar to ME and squadmates powers where better handled. Also more armor customization. Sure ME2 had a better dialog system, but in terms of rpg elements as a whole, ME2 was the black sheep. Strong dialog system, but the other elements where downright horrible.

but those are the things you would automatically know to be improved. While in ME3 their journal became crap, they took multiple Hub worlds, took out vehicle gameplay again, over-used auto-dialouge, those annoying fetch quests, half of your squads alt appearance were copy and paste reskins of each other

[Mr.House]

AresKeith wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

ME3 had a better power system, better selection of weapons, better leveling up system, weapon modding similar to ME and squadmates powers where better handled. Also more armor customization. Sure ME2 had a better dialog system, but in terms of rpg elements as a whole, ME2 was the black sheep. Strong dialog system, but the other elements where downright horrible.

but those are the things you would automatically know to be improved. While in ME3 their journal became crap, they took multiple Hub worlds, took out vehicle gameplay again, over-used auto-dialouge, those annoying fetch quests, half of your squads alt appearance were copy and paste reskins of each other

The copy-pase squadmember stuff has been present since ME2, but at least squadmates wear armor in ME3, the exception being EDI, who makes sense not to wear armor. Samara, Thane, Miri, Kasum and jack had moronic combat gear, fine Normandy outfits, but for combat? lol no. Also I already agreeded that ME2 did have a stronger dialog system. ME3 did go backwards on somethings, but overall the rpg elements where far better then ME2.

ME3 just has a very poor dialog system, and that is something no one can argue with. As for vehicle combat, if I had to deal with glass armor Hammerhead again I would have ripped my hair out.

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 septembre 2012 - 03:41 .

[3DandBeyond]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

snipped---
I would not look for a refund if my purchase if my reason for expecting something is merely what a single developer said pre-release or based on if I think it was pretty enough for me or never had something was never advertised of having in first place such as what your actually asking for. They NEVER said would get a happy ever after scene with your LI, they never said would be able to win conventionally and on top of that none of what was said of which others are quoting on here was ever written on the box or in any retailer description of the product that I have ever seen. I also do not appreciate your asinine claim that I am whats wrong with videogames today either because it is pure fallacy.

If you buy a product and it's bad, you think you have to accept that, no matter what they say.  That is wrong.  Devs are trying to get people to pre-order games, so they hype them and hype is advertising and it is about making promises.  And it was way more than one dev-I know you know that.  I never said they said there'd be a "happy ever after scene" so I don't know what you are talking about.

It isn't only what is written on the box that matters-where did you ever get that idea?  If someone tries to sell you a product and does not describe it correctly and you buy it, do you just live with that?  Do you ever return anything because the description of it was misleading?  Do you ever return anything?  I know you do.

I'm sorry if you don't understand this.  When you buy a game and it's bad, how will the dev ever know it's bad if no one complains?  And if no one complains, how will the dev ever know what people didn't like?  We are all the problem if we don't speak up and say exactly what we do or don't like.  Jessica Merizan did get this right-when we say we don't like the endings, that's not helpful.  We need to say what we didn't like or what would have been better.

What you've told me is you buy games and don't complain about them-that is not helping keep companies in business and making good games.  Bethesda never would have "fixed" Fallout 3 if people just sold the game on ebay and never said anything.  And then they might have kept making games that weren't open ended that people didn't like and they might have lost sales because people just stopped buying their games.  People that speak up are the best friends companies can have.

If you buy games based on what's on the box, that's a real problem, because boxes don't show you much of anything. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 01 septembre 2012 - 04:31 .

[Dragoonlordz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

snipped---
I would not look for a refund if my purchase if my reason for expecting something is merely what a single developer said pre-release or based on if I think it was pretty enough for me or never had something was never advertised of having in first place such as what your actually asking for. They NEVER said would get a happy ever after scene with your LI, they never said would be able to win conventionally and on top of that none of what was said of which others are quoting on here was ever written on the box or in any retailer description of the product that I have ever seen. I also do not appreciate your asinine claim that I am whats wrong with videogames today either because it is pure fallacy.

If you buy a product and it's bad, you think you have to accept that, no matter what they say.  That is wrong.  Devs are trying to get people to pre-order games, so they hype them and hype is advertising and it is about making promises.  And it was way more than one dev-I know you know that.  I never said they said there'd be a "happy ever after scene" so I don't know what you are talking about.

It isn't only what is written on the box that matters-where did you ever get that idea?  If someone tries to sell you a product and does not describe it correctly and you buy it, do you just live with that?  Do you ever return anything because the description of it was misleading?  Do you ever return anything?

I'm sorry if you don't understand this.  When you buy a game and it's bad, how will the dev ever know it's bad if no one complains?  And if no one complains, how will the dev ever know what people didn't like?  We are all the problem if we don't speak up and say exactly what we do or don't like.  Jessica Merizan did get this right-when we say we don't like the endings, that's not helpful.  We need to say what we didn't like or what would have been better.

What you've told me is you buy games and never complain about them-that is not helping keep companies in business and making good games.  Bethesda never would have "fixed" Fallout 3 if people just sold the game on ebay and never said anything.  And then they might have kept making games that weren't open ended that people didn't like and they might have lost sales because people just stopped buying their games.  People that speak up are the best friends companies can have.

If you buy games based on what's on the box, that's a real problem, because boxes don't show you much of anything. 

1. No you do not deserve a refund just because you think it is bad or you did not enjoy it. If they want to give you a refund for such a reason thats upto them but you do not deserve to have it if they do not. You deserve a refund if the product is fualty or falls within the legal requirement for one.

2. I do not pre-order games, your point is moot in relation to my actions and in regard to any pre-release statements they are subject to change.

3. You are throwing a hissy fit over my saying I sell games I do not enjoy on ebay, making asinine assumptions that I never return fualty products or when the product I buy does not have what is advetised form the place I buy it or listed on the product itself. Your ignorance over the fact I just gave you an example of recent time I did return an item by implying you do not think I have ever returned one makes me question your reading comprehension and for a valid reason to question it.

4. A dev knows I do not enjoy something via feedback. That is what it exists for and I know for fact they read my feedback just like they do most peoples given restrictions on how many places they can be at once or hours in a day. Reading feedback does not equal or require responding to each feedback left for it have have been read in the first place. Do not confuse the two and use some common sense in that regard. They do not 'only' listen to threats, boycotts and withholding money. It is possible to listen to feedback and not agree with what each feedback asks for.

5. Stop making asinine assupmtions about what I do based on your own personal bias, I never once said I never complain but you do show yourself as a liar in claiming I did. I do complain and I leave feedback, I do not buy something if I think I will not enjoy it and I will return it if is not as advertised (no I do not count pre-release tweets as reliable information). Legally binding description for puchase of goods is written on the box or product description where bought from of which if does not meet that then I return it. Not on what you think might be in game or what you heard prior to the finished product being released. Tweets and quotes are to be taken with pinch of salt, they for the most part merely describe what they would like to do or hope to do not what they have actually done in some cases.

6. Lastly seems to me your the one with the problem, you put too much faith in tweets and not enough on the legally binding product descriptions at point of sale. Your the one with problem with reading comprehension to what I have said and you have a problem lying about what I said. I am done with you.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 01 septembre 2012 - 04:10 .