6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Xellith wrote...

Well the way that people were overreacting to Patrick Weekes tweets (seriously people. Overreat much?) and they responded - I figure its safe to say they are "aware" of this thread.

The two things are not related. As for aware of this thread, they are aware of it as much as every other thread on here.

[Xellith]

lol...

[3DandBeyond]

Xellith wrote...

PuppiesOfDeath2 wrote...

Conan Doyle proclaimed he would never change the ending after he penned Holmes' death at Reichenbach Falls. Then he did. After his fans demanded it.

HOW DARE THOSE FANS QUESTION HIS ART!

It sets a dangerous precedent, no wait paid reviewers said changing the ending of ME3 would do that, some 100plus years after Conan Doyle and others, such as Dickens proved it was better to be flexible (with reach, perhaps).

Conan Doyle said he wanted to kill off Sherlock Holmes because it distracted him from more important things.  He apparently had some feeling that Holmes and these books were not "serious" business.

From Wikipedia:
"I must save my mind for better things," he wrote to his mother at the
time, "even if it means I must bury my pocketbook with him."


I think this really makes the point.  It is very much a part of what seems to have happened here with ME3.  The devs and Bioware employees, prior to release, made it known they wanted ME3 to be the breakout  game, to even be the Star Wars of its time and in this format.  They wanted a blockbuster similar to what Star Wars had been.  But, it seems clear that partway through its creation they began to fear that creating some Star Wars-esque ending would mean they wouldn't be taken seriously.  This is my take on this, my opinion.  It doesn't make them bad people, but I think they misunderstood (maybe got tired) what they'd done before, what would and wouldn't work.  The ending was staring them in the face, but they wanted to be taken seriously.  They started out going for Star Wars and then figured maybe they needed to go for Blade Runner or something more lofty. 

The ending is not like 2001, but there seems to have been an eye to create what Kubrick wanted 2001 to do.  Clarke wanted to explain it to people, so he was writing the book while the movie was being made.  Kubrick didn't want it explained; he wanted people to, wait for it, speculate.  He had real disdain for Clarke wanting people to understand it and wanted it to speak for itself. 

I think Bioware wanted this to be the game that made the ME franchise and they wanted it to be considered art - it's just they changed ideas of what it would be midstream.  They may well have run out of time and resources for the thing as well.  And, horror of horrors, it was not loved and respected.  I can imagine the shock of that.  I can imagine the hurt. 

As I said, this is my speculation, but from everything I've read, it's clear they started out with the idea that it would be their "Star Wars" and then they wanted something more serious, but they got caught with that same dilemma that hit Conan Doyle-the pocketbook and the fans or the art, the serious "thing".  You decide which is most important.  Conan Doyle did.  He realized that killing off Holmes would put him in a place of mediocrity.  Instead, he gave him immortality.  He never died and still lives on well past Conan Doyle's own mortality.  Had he been left dead, every movie ever done about him might never have happened becausle Holmes was the larger than life, quirky, flawed "superhero" that even helped spawn CSI and many detective stories that came along in the interim.

I see Shepard like this.  Allowing Shepard to live creates this undefinable something that would exist long after we are done playing these games.  Again, I don't mean one easy to get Shepard lives ending, but a way to get there-hurdles to overcome, pitfalls to avoid and even death if unsuccessful.  But, one way in which we can resurrect Shepard just as Conan Doyle did Holmes.  And just look at how well that worked out for him.

Do what you do best, Bioware-go with the character that was the heart of 3 stories, books, and so on.  Shepard never failed you before.

[Felis Menari]

Xellith wrote...

Catalyst "You have choice. More than you think"
Catalyst "Now choose"
Catalyst "Death, Death or Death"
Shepard "Ill have a slice of Death please"

Yeah...like the OP, I too feel that ME3 grinds pretty hard against what ME1/ME2 set up. Overall the stories of those games are rather uplifting, due in no small part to Shepard and his/her crew beating the odds in almost every situation. There's a good bit of that in ME3, but in the end, it all amounts to diddly squat. It kind of feels like Bioware was so focused on ending Shepard's story, that they lost sight of what made the previous two games so enjoyable. I can deal with some situations going bad (Virmire in ME1, ME2's suicide mission), but for all possible endings of the Mass Effect trilogy to be quite thorougly depressing, it's hard to see the upside of things.

You either kill all synthetics, take control of the reapers (who knows how long that will last with Shepard's ties to humanity being severed), or force a bio/techno evolution upon all living and synthetic creatures within the galaxy (refusal doesn't feel like a true ending, so I'll leave that one out). None of those options are discussed in any extent except between Shepard and the rogue AI. So all outcomes are done without any form of consent. I don't imagine galactic rape is a theme Bioware would really want to push upon their fans, but...that's exactly what they have done.

[robertthebard]

Felis Menari wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Catalyst "You have choice. More than you think"
Catalyst "Now choose"
Catalyst "Death, Death or Death"
Shepard "Ill have a slice of Death please"

Yeah...like the OP, I too feel that ME3 grinds pretty hard against what ME1/ME2 set up. Overall the stories of those games are rather uplifting, due in no small part to Shepard and his/her crew beating the odds in almost every situation. There's a good bit of that in ME3, but in the end, it all amounts to diddly squat. It kind of feels like Bioware was so focused on ending Shepard's story, that they lost sight of what made the previous two games so enjoyable. I can deal with some situations going bad (Virmire in ME1, ME2's suicide mission), but for all possible endings of the Mass Effect trilogy to be quite thorougly depressing, it's hard to see the upside of things.

You either kill all synthetics, take control of the reapers (who knows how long that will last with Shepard's ties to humanity being severed), or force a bio/techno evolution upon all living and synthetic creatures within the galaxy (refusal doesn't feel like a true ending, so I'll leave that one out). None of those options are discussed in any extent except between Shepard and the rogue AI. So all outcomes are done without any form of consent. I don't imagine galactic rape is a theme Bioware would really want to push upon their fans, but...that's exactly what they have done.

I remember finishing ME 1 and thinking, geez, I hope there aren't a lot of those things around.  I see the post about upbeat and dramatic, but not scary about ME 2's end music from time to time, and while I don't disagree, it goes all ominous when we see the fleet moving, or, more accurately, part of the fleet.  I came away, the first time, feeling kind of overwhelmed by their scope.  Then we get to see them at work, seriously, not just one single ship wreaking havoc, and I was left with "We're not going to be able to win on their(the Reapers)terms.  So it didn't blindside me like it apparently blindsided a lot of people.  Perspective is everything.  This is what I felt after the first two games, and I didn't need Hackett telling me "we can't beat them conventionally" to drive it home, I was already leaning that way anyway.

[3DandBeyond]

Ithurael wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Tooneyman wrote...

I'm proud to see that this thread has made it to 65. I hope this becomes the most active thread on the Bioware forums. I made a thread about the same thing. Keep up the love OP. We've got your back when you fall.

Hey cool and thanks a lot.

I have your back 3D. Your passion to the game and ideas are very impressive.

Though I must ask, what is the purpose of this? What is it that we seek to tell Bioware? What is the desired end state?

Many of the topics you covered in the OP connect on many of my feelings. But they are just feelings - not 'deliverables'

If you could go to bioware with infinite munies and power and say change: [blank] what would it be?

Well, if I had infinite money there's a lot that I'd change, but what I'm going for here is the least destructive method to what they now have.

I left it partly open to their determination of what might work-as I see it a "real" destroy or refuse where additional assets that we obtain mean something to the whole picture.  I've referenced the Puzzle Theory or even my own ideas as possibilities (my own has no name but there's a link in my tagline).  Basically, what I'm saying is that many are willing to pay to see some way forward that would (for us) invalidate the kid and separate the crucible from him and the choices and make one path possible. 

I like refuse or a destroy that weakens the reapers so that a "real" fight might take place, but I see that as taking a lot more resources for them to make happen-it also would require the addition of more unknown assets.  I always did prefer a way to have an actual fight where people have learned new ways to fight the reapers.  Dark energy weapons that reduce the mass of reapers and make them vulnerable for instance.  Outcomes that ran the gamut from full loss to sad partial loss (friends, LI, Earth, or Shepard or all) but the galaxy is saved, to a real victory (reapers dead, main characters alive, Earth saved but still a mess, galaxy saved but still a mess), and an aftermath showing the consequences of all this.

Most of my real gut level wishes revolve around the invalidation of the kid.  I see him as being fatally flawed and that the closer the galaxy gets to victory (more assets, better decisions with a variety of good and bad decisions) lead to the obviousness of the flaw in the kid becoming greater each time something is added.  Eventually, I see him as rather delusional (not the right word for an AI, but effective) and perhaps even desperate as he sees his solutions and his goal slipping away.  I'd love to see his last play being to either try to intimidate Shepard by being the visual image of the "so be it" character (Harbinger?) who sees his impending doom.  He might threaten that Shepard must make a choice and Shepard might get to say that s/he has made a choice-then echo what Hackett says about dead reapers being the solution.

I have another way, but again it would require some invasive things be done to the game prior to the ending that involves making the choices not be choices but natural occurrences that come from the Shepard you played.  If you like control and agreed with TIM-maybe you could even let him live, you gave him the base, and so on, then when you use the crucible you'd take control, but there would be good and bad versions where Shepard could live and just control the reapers to fix things and then send them into the sun or Shepard could have an even worse fate than we have now-dies and is uploaded and becomes a true reaper god, ruling with fear and the reaper threat, creating a reaper empire.  And synthesis and destroy would also have good and bad versions as well as the in between.  I also think the kid would exist in some way, but not necessarily as the kid and not having anything to do with the crucible or the choices-remove his goal from it except to say that the reapers were sent to preserve organics.  He could merely be there in some form (again looking like Harbinger or other characters depending on your Shepard) to tell what will happen or even to try and prevent it from happening. 

These are all my own ideas for what could happen with what we have.  But, what I'm asking here isn't that specific other than that I want them to take a look at what's been requested and weigh the merits, without all the negativity attached.  I'm asking them to be a business and ignore they animosity that sometimes is real and that sometimes they merely always feel is directed at them.  I'm also asking them to be humans and to reconsider leaving a great many fans out in the cold.  I want them to look at what people are willing to pay for and consider all of it-to do that they have to get past the hurt and anger on all sides.  That's not easy.  I'm telling them I would pay to have an addition to the endings we have-the easiest I feel would be a true destroy where the crucible helps defeat the reapers and does only kill them-with real consequences and a real outcome.  Beyond that, I see then a possibility for some of the post-ending DLC people have requested.  I think a reunion DLC for those that want it could be wrapped up in an aftermath pack where Shepard must help in rebuilding and all-this is more like epilogue DLC.  But that doesn't preclude conflict, choice, and fighting at all.

Bottom line is, I'm putting all ideas out on the table, offering less expensive ideas for making things work for those who want a satisfying ending that leaves the current ending intact for those that like it.  But the first most important thing is to get Bioware, to ask Bioware to just consider it-that's the first step.  Specifics can't come until they determine if there'd be some win in it for them.  I think there would-moneywise and maybe more importantly, heartwise.

[Felis Menari]

robertthebard wrote...

Felis Menari wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Catalyst "You have choice. More than you think"
Catalyst "Now choose"
Catalyst "Death, Death or Death"
Shepard "Ill have a slice of Death please"

Yeah...like the OP, I too feel that ME3 grinds pretty hard against what ME1/ME2 set up. Overall the stories of those games are rather uplifting, due in no small part to Shepard and his/her crew beating the odds in almost every situation. There's a good bit of that in ME3, but in the end, it all amounts to diddly squat. It kind of feels like Bioware was so focused on ending Shepard's story, that they lost sight of what made the previous two games so enjoyable. I can deal with some situations going bad (Virmire in ME1, ME2's suicide mission), but for all possible endings of the Mass Effect trilogy to be quite thorougly depressing, it's hard to see the upside of things.

You either kill all synthetics, take control of the reapers (who knows how long that will last with Shepard's ties to humanity being severed), or force a bio/techno evolution upon all living and synthetic creatures within the galaxy (refusal doesn't feel like a true ending, so I'll leave that one out). None of those options are discussed in any extent except between Shepard and the rogue AI. So all outcomes are done without any form of consent. I don't imagine galactic rape is a theme Bioware would really want to push upon their fans, but...that's exactly what they have done.

I remember finishing ME 1 and thinking, geez, I hope there aren't a lot of those things around.  I see the post about upbeat and dramatic, but not scary about ME 2's end music from time to time, and while I don't disagree, it goes all ominous when we see the fleet moving, or, more accurately, part of the fleet.  I came away, the first time, feeling kind of overwhelmed by their scope.  Then we get to see them at work, seriously, not just one single ship wreaking havoc, and I was left with "We're not going to be able to win on their(the Reapers)terms.  So it didn't blindside me like it apparently blindsided a lot of people.  Perspective is everything.  This is what I felt after the first two games, and I didn't need Hackett telling me "we can't beat them conventionally" to drive it home, I was already leaning that way anyway.

We all knew the score. Most of us, I would imagine, still expected the conflict to have at least one upbeat outcome. That every single ending requires Shepard's death for no good reason (in my mind, anyways), save for one, makes for a rather lackluster finish for an overall epic trilogy. And the one ending in which Shepard survives, Bioware won't even commit to a definitive yes or no. I'm not a fan of ambiguity, in case you can't tell. <_<

Modifié par Felis Menari, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:18 .

[M920CAIN]

Sign me on as the guy who would donate a kidney if Shepard needed one for his operation after he gets out of the rubble.

[Dragoonlordz]

Felis Menari wrote...

Xellith wrote...

Catalyst "You have choice. More than you think"
Catalyst "Now choose"
Catalyst "Death, Death or Death"
Shepard "Ill have a slice of Death please"

Yeah...like the OP, I too feel that ME3 grinds pretty hard against what ME1/ME2 set up. Overall the stories of those games are rather uplifting, due in no small part to Shepard and his/her crew beating the odds in almost every situation. There's a good bit of that in ME3, but in the end, it all amounts to diddly squat. It kind of feels like Bioware was so focused on ending Shepard's story, that they lost sight of what made the previous two games so enjoyable. I can deal with some situations going bad (Virmire in ME1, ME2's suicide mission), but for all possible endings of the Mass Effect trilogy to be quite thorougly depressing, it's hard to see the upside of things.

You either kill all synthetics, take control of the reapers (who knows how long that will last with Shepard's ties to humanity being severed), or force a bio/techno evolution upon all living and synthetic creatures within the galaxy (refusal doesn't feel like a true ending, so I'll leave that one out). None of those options are discussed in any extent except between Shepard and the rogue AI. So all outcomes are done without any form of consent. I don't imagine galactic rape is a theme Bioware would really want to push upon their fans, but...that's exactly what they have done.

The theme of the games were never uplifting. If you managed to find elements uplifting it was despite the them not because of it. From having companions and squadmates die, your character being ignored and dismissed, betrayal often and by many and hidious experiments on people from David to all the people Cerberus altered, conflict and war, death all around constantly and genocide of entire species. Shepard killed, by collectors, forced to work for terrorists who did extremely gruesome things in the past. Races and colonies enslaved.

ME was never uplifting in the sense of setting or universe. It's great if you managed to find certain parts uplifting but that was not the theme of setting of any of the games. People all around killed or turned into husks and people used as reaper goo. Death of crew and council, cycles of extinction, all the loyalty missions being negative and having negative plots from sons turned killers, fathers abusing women and murdering men, children used as guinea pigs in experiments etc plus much more.

ME3 had more uplifting parts than either of the other two, in this one you can make peace between geth and quarians, can cure the genophage and can unite the galaxy. Depending on what you pick at the end it does not have to alter that. In control for example I consider the genophage still cured, I still have peace between geth and quarians and I still have a galaxy united. I merely use the Reapers to help rebuild.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:29 .

[Xellith]

I honestly expected an effort:reward ratio with a scale from "OH CRAP WE ARE TOTALLY SCREWED /harvested" to "OMG... WE DID IT.. WE LOST A LOT ON THE WAY.. BUT WE DID IT GUYS /MAN TEAR"

We didnt even get a ****ing suicide mission 2.0

Me at london "man I wonder how they are going to top ME2 suicide mission :D"
Me at beam "Holy crap this beam segment is crazy!!!"
Me getting hit by beam and waking up all torn up "wait... what??"
Me at TIM "We arnt going to see our assets in action are we?"
Me at elevator "Wut?"
Me at catalyst "what the..."
Me at catalysts explanation "are you ****ing kidding me -_-"
Me choosing my ending "wait... is this is???"
Me at credits "there has to be more after credits..."
Me at buzz aldrin scene "o.O???"

and finally...

Modifié par Xellith, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:26 .

[3DandBeyond]

Yes, xelith, exactly. Fine with me if mostly we are truly messed up (even in a Shepard live ending the galaxy is), but please one way, one real authentic ray of hope.

[Iakus]

Xellith wrote...

I honestly expected an effort:reward ratio with a scale from "OH CRAP WE ARE TOTALLY SCREWED /harvested" to "OMG... WE DID IT.. WE LOST A LOT ON THE WAY.. BUT WE DID IT GUYS /MAN TEAR"

We didnt even get a ****ing suicide mission 2.0

Me at london "man I wonder how they are going to top ME2 suicide mission :D"
Me at beam "Holy crap this beam segment is crazy!!!"
Me getting hit by beam and waking up all torn up "wait... what??"
Me at TIM "We arnt going to see our assets in action are we?"
Me at elevator "Wut?"
Me at catalyst "what the..."
Me at catalysts explanation "are you ****ing kidding me -_-"
Me choosing my ending "wait... is this is???"
Me at credits "there has to be more after credits..."
Me at buzz aldrin scene "o.O???"

and finally...

And then there's going online and finding out, no that wasn't one of the worst endings.  Shepard alone, injured, buried in rubble is the best possible outcome your Shepard can hope for.

[Moirai]

Xellith wrote...

I honestly expected an effort:reward ratio with a scale from "OH CRAP WE ARE TOTALLY SCREWED /harvested" to "OMG... WE DID IT.. WE LOST A LOT ON THE WAY.. BUT WE DID IT GUYS /MAN TEAR"

We didnt even get a ****ing suicide mission 2.0

Me at london "man I wonder how they are going to top ME2 suicide mission :D"
Me at beam "Holy crap this beam segment is crazy!!!"
Me getting hit by beam and waking up all torn up "wait... what??"
Me at TIM "We arnt going to see our assets in action are we?"
Me at elevator "Wut?"
Me at catalyst "what the..."
Me at catalysts explanation "are you ****ing kidding me -_-"
Me choosing my ending "wait... is this is???"
Me at credits "there has to be more after credits..."
Me at buzz aldrin scene "o.O???"

and finally...

*nods* I feel your pain. That was pretty much my reaction too. It was also pretty much the unprompted reaction of a couple of RL friends.

I had finished it before them and therefore knew what was waiting for them while they were still actively enjoying it. It was actually quite painful waiting for them to finish as well. When they did it was anger from the male friend, and tears from the female friend, coupled with disbelief all round.

Nice one, Bioware...

[Warrior Craess]

robertthebard wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

IamDanThaMan wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xellith wrote...

So people who dont understand synthesis are paraphrasing "dumb" because we didnt pick up seondary material to explain everything?

Sounds legit.

Even worst, his quote does absolutely nothing to hint at synthesis being possible. I mean, just think about it, if all it took were Reaper nanites, the Reapers could have gotten Synthesis knocked out a long time ago.

Play the end of the game again. The catalyst says it was not possible until the crucible was combined with the citadel. Also, Shepard was needed to provide a blue-print.

Seriously, this is not a big leap. I figured this out before the EC even came out, and with the EC, it is even more obvious. YOu are just trying to refute it because it disproves your point.

PS. I am very much enjoying the fact that I totally derailed this thread and that it is now about the explanation of synthesis.

Incorrect, he states it has been done before, and always failed, becuase it "can not be forced"  Explain to me how 1 person of untold trillions of people, making that choice isn't forcing it? 

What they couldn't find someone of similiar mind set to shepard in who knows how many cycles? 

really?

Being deliberately obtuse does not help forward an arguement, it just makes you deliberately obtuse.  According to the Catalyst, Shepard is the first organic ever to get there.  According to everything we know, we are the first to actually deploy the Crucible.  whether this opens up the possibility or not is beside the point, as far as I'm concerned.  All of these endings are moot.  The game ends in London, and any discussion of anything after is officially supported headcanon as far as I'm concerned.  Now if they'd only make the legend save at the beam, I'd be a happy camper.  Shep's dead, and cannot come back to haunt any future installments, and EMS determines how much longer the galaxy resists before they get sucked into a new Reaper or two.

/sigh... 

seriously watch the video in the link (ignore the commentary though) from the 28:40 mark onwards.. "we have tried a similiar solution in the past. but it has always failed. It can not be ... forced" 

Yet what the Catalyst requires is the ultimate in forcing organics to become hybrids. There is not getting around this contridiction. 

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:51 .

[Killdren88]

Saddened, Why do we even bother? They will just ignore us until people give up on the concept.

[Warrior Craess]

robertthebard wrote...

N7_Paragon2077 wrote...

Lmao. You would think that one would want everyone else to also enjoy the game they love. That's so incredibly childish, that I can't believe it. It's not as if those few downers have to choose it. They can still have their bleak, wasteland ending. Nobody cares as long as they like it. It's like being a bully in school. You're just against that kid for the sake of it even though he didn't even do anything to you. Just cause he has a different preference than you. Those kinds of people need to grow up. If an overwhelming amount of people would choose that ending, those people should support us, cause we support them. We don't want their endings changed. We want one for us, too.

I'm going to come off cold and logical here, but hey, what can I say?  I'm against any ending where Shepard lives.  This is Shepard's last gasp for Mass Effect, and I find it fitting that Shepard dies.  All I have to do to see what happens when a protagonist in a BioWare game isn't central to a story, but alive is go over to the DA forums.  What I find incredibly childish is calling somebody else childish when they don't agree with you, for whatever reason.  This is the kind of behavior I expect from my granddaughters, the oldest being 12.

I am neither for, nor against 3D's proposals.  I have my ending, if they'd add my legend save, and I love it.  It accomplishes everything I need to accomplish, and I don't expect that anyone would agree with me, although it has had some recognition, even in this very thread, as a legitimate ending.  What I do oppose is somebody bashing somebody else for their beliefs, while believing they should be immune to being bashed for their own beliefs.  This does not constitute dialog, or discussion, and is why even though I have views in common with others in this thread, I do not necessarily support them.  If they made a rainbows and butterflies ending to this series, I would not buy it.  I have been under the impression since Mass Effect that beating the Reapers on their terms would be impossible.

I don't skip the endings because I feel like they're bad, even though I don't like how they handled the Crucible.  I skip the endings because to me, the DeM of surviving being nuked by Harbinger, which I see as on par with the Lazarus Project, where, if you have enough credits, you can purchase a soul back from the void, is 1,000 times worse than all the endings combined.  Nothing they add after that will matter to me, since I have watched a cruiser get one shotted by that beam.  I have watched shuttles get utterly destroyed, but I'm supposed to believe that even though my armor, with all those electronics in it that short out(which should kill you outright) is better than what a cruiser has.  Sorry, the contrivance here is all it took for me to not want to play the rest of the game.  Asking for anything after that is, in my opinion, further supporting a bigger contrivance than Synthesis.

And nothing about an optional DLC allowing shepard to live, and deal with the idiot star child requires you to change your endings. You got endings you can like, so why are you so up in arms about what many other people would like in order to get an ending they would like? 

[Felis Menari]

Warrior Craess wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

IamDanThaMan wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xellith wrote...

So people who dont understand synthesis are paraphrasing "dumb" because we didnt pick up seondary material to explain everything?

Sounds legit.

Even worst, his quote does absolutely nothing to hint at synthesis being possible. I mean, just think about it, if all it took were Reaper nanites, the Reapers could have gotten Synthesis knocked out a long time ago.

Play the end of the game again. The catalyst says it was not possible until the crucible was combined with the citadel. Also, Shepard was needed to provide a blue-print.

Seriously, this is not a big leap. I figured this out before the EC even came out, and with the EC, it is even more obvious. YOu are just trying to refute it because it disproves your point.

PS. I am very much enjoying the fact that I totally derailed this thread and that it is now about the explanation of synthesis.

Incorrect, he states it has been done before, and always failed, becuase it "can not be forced"  Explain to me how 1 person of untold trillions of people, making that choice isn't forcing it? 

What they couldn't find someone of similiar mind set to shepard in who knows how many cycles? 

really?

Being deliberately obtuse does not help forward an arguement, it just makes you deliberately obtuse.  According to the Catalyst, Shepard is the first organic ever to get there.  According to everything we know, we are the first to actually deploy the Crucible.  whether this opens up the possibility or not is beside the point, as far as I'm concerned.  All of these endings are moot.  The game ends in London, and any discussion of anything after is officially supported headcanon as far as I'm concerned.  Now if they'd only make the legend save at the beam, I'd be a happy camper.  Shep's dead, and cannot come back to haunt any future installments, and EMS determines how much longer the galaxy resists before they get sucked into a new Reaper or two.

/sigh... 

seriously watch the video in the link (ignore the commentary though) from the 28:40 mark onwards.. "we have tried a similiar solution in the past. but it has always failed. It can not be ... forced" 

Yet what the Catalyst requires is the ultimate in forcing organics to become hybrids. There is not getting around this contridiction. 

www.youtube.com/watch

And that's why I mentioned galactic rape. No matter how you try to spin it, it simply isn't right. You aren't just going to have to bend your morals to go through with it, you're gonna have to break them entirely.

Modifié par Felis Menari, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Tooneyman]

Killdren88 wrote...

Saddened, Why do we even bother? They will just ignore us until people give up on the concept.

Than we will never give up on it. Every time they release a trailer of something. BAM! Its us and the ending. Every time they make a tweet. BAM! Its us and the ending. Every time they even make a move or try to sell a new game. BAM! Its us and the ending. We aren't going anywhere until we get what we asked for. If it takes 25 years and their copyright is up on this franchise. BAM! It will be us who snag it first and try to fix and release the game with a new and awesome ending or at least adding to the one that makes sense and has all the stuff fixed on it. So Remember. BAM! Its us and the ending and we aren't going anywhere. You shouldn't either. It just gives you more entertainment right?

[3DandBeyond]

Dragoonlordz wrote...



The theme of the games were never uplifting. If you managed to find elements uplifting it was despite the them not because of it. From having companions and squadmates die, your character being ignored and dismissed, betrayal often and by many and hidious experiments on people from David to all the people Cerberus altered, conflict and war, death all around constantly and genocide of entire species. Shepard killed, by collectors, forced to work for terrorists who did extremely gruesome things in the past. Races and colonies enslaved.

ME was never uplifting in the sense of setting or universe. It's great if you managed to find certain parts uplifting but that was not the theme of setting of any of the games. People all around killed or turned into husks and people used as reaper goo. Death of crew and council, cycles of extinction, all the loyalty missions being negative and having negative plots from sons turned killers, fathers abusing women and murdering men, children used as guinea pigs in experiments etc plus much more.

ME3 had more uplifting parts than either of the other two, in this one you can make peace between geth and quarians, can cure the genophage and can unite the galaxy. Depending on what you pick at the end it does not have to alter that. In control for example I consider the genophage still cured, I still have peace between geth and quarians and I still have a galaxy united. I merely use the Reapers to help rebuild.

Seriously?  I'm sorry, but ME1's conflict ended with Shepard rising from the rubble and ashes then the epilog.  ME2 ended with the collectors (the expendable vanguards for the reapers-didn't want to risk losing another real reaper after Sovereign before they understood what was happening) being destroyed and the epilog-the most uplifting part I think almost of all 3 games; the looks Shepard got from this band of misfits.

Uplifting was the theme throughout.  Redemption, diversity, unity-those are uplifting themes.  From Ashes-that is the Phoenix rising.  And this consistently happened within all ME games, even with Leviathan and Shepard at the beginning of ME2.  As bad as things got, the mirror image was just one obstacle away-if Kaidan or Ashley needed to die, they did so because they demanded it and because they knew that they couldn't both survive.  The sacrifice there was uplifting.  If Mordin needed to die, he did so because he was redeeming himself and what he had done-I cried like a baby, but I also rejoiced at his selfless sacrifice and who he had become. 

Every character within Shepard's circle is a tale of redemption and it doesn't get more uplifting than that, but all of that is squashed when Shepard does what the Shepard that helped others find redemption never would do.  Shepard helped the geth redeem themselves in my game-so that Shepard couldn't forget that and say, "oh well, dead reapers, yay!"  Shepard in my game helped EDI find redemption and autonomy, Wrex, Grunt, Jack too, and Miranda-Shepard helped everyone become authentic autonomous individuals separate from their pasts.  That Shepard couldn't integrate tech within them against their will or fundamentally change who they are.  And my Shepard could never force people that have seen such horrors to live with the reapers in their midst as control shows.

The game had uplifting themes everywhere within it.  If not, I wouldn't have played it.  I don't want dark, demented, and fatalistic.  Take Earth Back is not a depressing theme-but that was the theme of ME3-the driving force.  That implies many things and uplifting is one of them. 

[Dragoonlordz]

Tooneyman wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

Saddened, Why do we even bother? They will just ignore us until people give up on the concept.

Than we will never give up on it. Every time they release a trailer of something. BAM! Its us and the ending. Every time they make a tweet. BAM! Its us and the ending. Every time they even make a move or try to sell a new game. BAM! Its us and the ending. We aren't going anywhere until we get what we asked for. If it takes 25 years and their copyright is up on this franchise. BAM! It will be us who snag it first and try to fix and release the game with a new and awesome ending or at least adding to the one that makes sense and has all the stuff fixed on it. So Remember. BAM! Its us and the ending and we aren't going anywhere. You shouldn't either. It just gives you more entertainment right?

If harrassment is your intention then the result will be banning, suspensions, blocking and eventually you as an individual will be ignored plus there is no way you will ever buy the franchise. Not in 25 years and not in 50 years. Vast amount of this your so called 'us' have become smaller and smaller in number every passing week. Your us is a tiny fraction of the people what was in past and it is getting smaller and will continue to do so until there is but a handful of whiners as most get on with their lives, accept the direction Bioware wants to take their franchise or lose interest in whining like babies. A lot of which will at some point see something new whether Bioware game or DLC that they actually want.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:17 .

[3DandBeyond]

iakus wrote...

Xellith wrote...

I honestly expected an effort:reward ratio with a scale from "OH CRAP WE ARE TOTALLY SCREWED /harvested" to "OMG... WE DID IT.. WE LOST A LOT ON THE WAY.. BUT WE DID IT GUYS /MAN TEAR"

We didnt even get a ****ing suicide mission 2.0

Me at london "man I wonder how they are going to top ME2 suicide mission :D"
Me at beam "Holy crap this beam segment is crazy!!!"
Me getting hit by beam and waking up all torn up "wait... what??"
Me at TIM "We arnt going to see our assets in action are we?"
Me at elevator "Wut?"
Me at catalyst "what the..."
Me at catalysts explanation "are you ****ing kidding me -_-"
Me choosing my ending "wait... is this is???"
Me at credits "there has to be more after credits..."
Me at buzz aldrin scene "o.O???"

and finally...

And then there's going online and finding out, no that wasn't one of the worst endings.  Shepard alone, injured, buried in rubble is the best possible outcome your Shepard can hope for.

Yes and imagine the horror of those that couldn't play MP and were begging for a way to even get that. 

When I first finished the game I thought I'd done something wrong (I got the torso ending).  I kept seeing things saying there was a "Shepard lives" ending and didn't quite get it.  I was appalled to find out the ending I got was the best one.

I thought this had to be some joke, that people misunderstood and we all missed something.  I combed through threads, war asset lists, and all.  I could not believe that people that had written Mordin and Legion and Grunt had done this.  I still can't.  In many ways the shock hasn't worn off.  I fully understand what they say about all this, but their credibility lives on shakey ground.  They have too many voices saying too many opposing things and when they finally agree on a message it comes out in very cruel ways.  I don't think they see this.  That's why I'm asking they review what has happened. 

I said this:  I like to paint.  If you always stand close to the canvas you never see the mistakes.  Step back, turn away, and return with fresh eyes and maybe you can see what we see.  Sure, we've all said hurtful, nasty things.  But they must consider, our comments are borne of frustration and lack of power and lack of interaction in an interactive medium about an interactive product.  We say things and are ignored when we say them-no one asks us to clarify what we say.  And then we see others misrepresent what we've said (IGN, G4TV, Game Informer), and frustration builds.  I want to ask them to get beyond their impressions of us, right or wrong, and understand one thing: we are fans.  We have loved BW and this game.  Please, take another look with fresh eyes.

[Xamufam]

Modifié par Troxa, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:23 .

[3DandBeyond]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Tooneyman wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

Saddened, Why do we even bother? They will just ignore us until people give up on the concept.

Than we will never give up on it. Every time they release a trailer of something. BAM! Its us and the ending. Every time they make a tweet. BAM! Its us and the ending. Every time they even make a move or try to sell a new game. BAM! Its us and the ending. We aren't going anywhere until we get what we asked for. If it takes 25 years and their copyright is up on this franchise. BAM! It will be us who snag it first and try to fix and release the game with a new and awesome ending or at least adding to the one that makes sense and has all the stuff fixed on it. So Remember. BAM! Its us and the ending and we aren't going anywhere. You shouldn't either. It just gives you more entertainment right?

If harrassment is your intention then the result will be banning, suspensions, blocking and eventually you as an individual will be ignored plus there is no way you will ever buy the franchise. Not in 25 years and not in 50 years. Vast amount of this your so called 'us' have become smaller and smaller in number every passing week. Your us is a tiny fraction of the people what was in past and it is getting smaller and will continue to do so until there is but a handful of whiners as most get on with their lives, accept the direction Bioware wants to take their franchise or lose interest in whining like babies. A lot of which will at some point see something new whether game or DLC that they actually want.

Stop with the name calling.  And consider this: do you want Bioware to survive and make quality games of the ME type?  Do you want them to have the money and resources to do so?  Do you want all videogames to end up being the same?  CoD games have SP that is like a big tutorial to get you ready for MP.  Is that what you want?  I don't want every game to be like that and it's foolish for BW to go that way.

The more people that buy their products, the more likely this is to happen.  The more often people listen to the real haters-the haters of people, who say "go away" and "shut up, whiner", the fewer customers a game dev has.  Many people lurk in forums, even other game devs do.  There are devs out there that may even see the suggestions on this forum and think that sounds like a good idea, never pull a Bioware or never pull an ME3.  These devs are envious of the diversity of the fanbase that ME has.

It's myopic to think that the FPS gamer (mostly teenage boys) will carry game development forward.  And the largest segment of game buyers (NA) needs to be augmented by the global community.  The demographics of gaming is shifting-as recognized by Nintendo and the Wii, MS and Kinect.  Moms want to play, too.  And Nintendo is recognizing that just as in America, females decided they liked football as much as the men in the family, females like a variety of games and not just those with flowers and Barbies.  Other devs see that the money in the family comes from those that are working (in the US, more women than men retained their jobs during the recession).  And those with the better jobs have more disposable entertainment cash.  More women than men buy books and magazines and the publishing industry recognizes that.

Now, I'm not saying that ME is a "woman's" game.  I'm saying that turning it into a teenage boy's game is a mistake.  And the demographics that liked ME, liked it because the adventures and the outcomes were heroic.  ME3's endings are not.  Most do not role play games in order to die.  Most movies are also role playing concepts and people do not go to them to have the hero always die-the biggest money makers have heroes that live.  That means that's what people want.  And businesses must consider this or go out of business. 

So, by all means get antagonistic and tell people to go away and shut up.  Then live with the consequences.  I've seen it happen before.  And you are so right, there will be other games.  That's exactly the point.  ME needs to keep all the fans it can in order to remain a profitable franchise and it should remain unique within a field of boring cookie cutter sameness.  Bioware should lead, not follow.

[robertthebard]

Warrior Craess wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

IamDanThaMan wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xellith wrote...

So people who dont understand synthesis are paraphrasing "dumb" because we didnt pick up seondary material to explain everything?

Sounds legit.

Even worst, his quote does absolutely nothing to hint at synthesis being possible. I mean, just think about it, if all it took were Reaper nanites, the Reapers could have gotten Synthesis knocked out a long time ago.

Play the end of the game again. The catalyst says it was not possible until the crucible was combined with the citadel. Also, Shepard was needed to provide a blue-print.

Seriously, this is not a big leap. I figured this out before the EC even came out, and with the EC, it is even more obvious. YOu are just trying to refute it because it disproves your point.

PS. I am very much enjoying the fact that I totally derailed this thread and that it is now about the explanation of synthesis.

Incorrect, he states it has been done before, and always failed, becuase it "can not be forced"  Explain to me how 1 person of untold trillions of people, making that choice isn't forcing it? 

What they couldn't find someone of similiar mind set to shepard in who knows how many cycles? 

really?

Being deliberately obtuse does not help forward an arguement, it just makes you deliberately obtuse.  According to the Catalyst, Shepard is the first organic ever to get there.  According to everything we know, we are the first to actually deploy the Crucible.  whether this opens up the possibility or not is beside the point, as far as I'm concerned.  All of these endings are moot.  The game ends in London, and any discussion of anything after is officially supported headcanon as far as I'm concerned.  Now if they'd only make the legend save at the beam, I'd be a happy camper.  Shep's dead, and cannot come back to haunt any future installments, and EMS determines how much longer the galaxy resists before they get sucked into a new Reaper or two.

/sigh... 

seriously watch the video in the link (ignore the commentary though) from the 28:40 mark onwards.. "we have tried a similiar solution in the past. but it has always failed. It can not be ... forced" 

Yet what the Catalyst requires is the ultimate in forcing organics to become hybrids. There is not getting around this contridiction. 

www.youtube.com/watch

This is why the internet sucks as a medium for communication, or maybe it's just my migraine happy shots not letting me be clear?  I'm going into largely uncharted territory for me here, as I said, as far as I'm concerned, these events never happen.  My canon games end in London, everything else is officially supported head canon, and if they released DLC with everything 3D wants, I wouldn't buy it.  I'm happy with my ending.  I have also stated, quite plainly, maybe even in these exact words that I am neither for nor against said DLC, even though I wouldn't buy it.

However, whatever SC may have tried in the past is irrelevent, since we know, from his own mouth, that this is the first time an Organic has stepped into it's lair.  Maybe his previous attempts resulted in what we call husks, or any of the other Reaper variants?  Are we sure that these aren't the results of trying Synthesis?  If this is true, then they are failed experiments, even if Banshees are a pain in the ass...  I'm free to look at the big picture, because as far as I'm concerned everything after London is, and maybe a better term is officially supported fanfiction.  The contrivance of getting to these scenes is greater than all of that segment combined, in my eyes, which is why I compared it to the Lazarus Project's "if you have enough credits, you can buy a soul back from the Void".