6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Archonsg wrote...

@entropicangel
No, the majority didn't demanded a change but asked why the ending boiled down to an "A, B, C" (literally) ending. We wanted ti know why the entire game played out almost catering to one style of play (Renegade) and why Shepard had to have his or her character, his soul murdered in those last 10 or so mins, to be replaced by a broken automaton blindly accepting solutions from an obviously insane and murderous AI without even so much a fight. That he chose to commit suicide, and suicide it was hidden behind the veneer of control - power, synthesis - dead messiah, destroy - victory at any cost, three themes.

We were asking, where was the fourth theme, victory and survival.

I see the term "selfish" thrown around alot, but perhaps my understanding of that term, being someone who ALREADY HAS SOMETHING BUT DOES NOT WANT ANY ONE ELSE TO HAVE THE SAME, is flawed.
Pro-current-enders are happy with what they have. How is adding ANOTHER ending, one they don't have to play towards make those who want such an ending make them "selfish"?

Because you wish to step on the themes that made the ME franchise so sucessful, like artistic integrity, and darkness and hopelessness.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
ME isn't a book or a movie,it is a completely seperate medium that can be altered on a whim. also plenty of authors and directors have changed movies and books based on customer feedback.

Sherlock.

I doubt "plenty" will turn out to be a very large number.

Perhaps not a large number, but in terms of who was willing to set aside silly notions like "artistic integrity" in a consumer product, plenty applies just fine.

[plfranke]

@Entropic
I think for the most part, and when everything is said and done, Bioware will be hurt by this whole ending mess. However, I also think that Capitalism doesn't necessarily win in this case.

For instance, if a lot of Mass Effect 3 fans would have knew how the ending was going to turn out, they wouldn't have pre ordered and may not have played at all. I wouldn't for one, I would have definitely waited for the price to go down and then, I only might have bought it. A lot of people are so attached to the Mass Effect universe (not Bioware but the universe and its characters) that they will buy and dlc that will allow them to interact. There are some people that specifically want romance dlcs for Mass Effect 2 characters (as a strictly Jack romancer I might even want this for the right price and content). A lot of people may buy future dlc in hopes that it will change the ending or at least, whatever happens in the dlc will be shown at the end.

I bought Leviathan without any doubt in my mind that I would see those orbs in action in London. Despite that I was very disappointed in some of Leviathan's explanations that were clearly working under the constraint of the Catalyst, I enjoyed every bit of the dlc before that. To find out at the end that Leviathan did absolutely nothing, was frustrating. It almost seemed like Bioware was making a joke out of the fact that Leviathan was so useless in the new Catalyst dialogue.

Shepard: The Leviathans are a part of this war now!
Catalyst: Good, I welcome their involvement.

Yet, they hadn't done anything. It was confusing, frustrating, and I vowed right then and there I wasn't going to buy anymore dlc. In a perfect world, where if you knew whether or not you were going to enjoy the product and could then make a decision, Capitalism would always be right, in this case, not so much.

[plfranke]

I wasn't buying the dlc in hopes it would change the ending. I was buying it in hopes that Leviathan would do something in the battle at Earth. Otherwise, there was literally no point in buying the dlc.

[chevyguy87]

EntropicAngel wrote...

No one is buying DLC in the hopes that it will change the endings

To some that may be true, to others maybe not. Some still hang on to that little bit of thread left called hope. However I cannot say anything in regards to that, since I no longer own any of the ME games. I have since moved on, but I gander at the forums every now and then. This statement interested me so here I am replying to it. 

My stance on post ending DLC especially Leviathan is that it should have been in the base game. I despise when game devlopers cut content out on purpose to push it to the side as DLC. I do not care about sales figures and other business related swill, but cutting content from the final product is just a shady thing to do, just shady. To charge consumers to play what at one point was in the game, but was cut out, is just malicious and criminal. Pro enders Anti enders I don't care we are ALL consumers and those of you who are okay with paying for content that was omitted from the vanilla game may be alright with that, but I most certainly am not. 

That is just another reason why I have quit Mass Effect.

[plfranke]

chevyguy87 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

No one is buying DLC in the hopes that it will change the endings

To some that may be true, to others maybe not. Some still hang on to that little bit of thread left called hope. However I cannot say anything in regards to that, since I no longer own any of the ME games. I have since moved on, but I gander at the forums every now and then. This statement interested me so here I am replying to it. 

My stance on post ending DLC especially Leviathan is that it should have been in the base game. I despise when game devlopers cut content out on purpose to push it to the side as DLC. I do not care about sales figures and other business related swill, but cutting content from the final product is just a shady thing to do, just shady. To charge consumers to play what at one point was in the game, but was cut out, is just malicious and criminal. Pro enders Anti enders I don't care we are ALL consumers and those of you who are okay with paying for content that was omitted from the vanilla game may be alright with that, but I most certainly am not. 

That is just another reason why I have quit Mass Effect.

Yeah, if you play Leviathan after already completing the game, it really feels like it should have been there from the beginning.  It's even worst though that Leviathan foreshadows something in the ending that is only foreshadowed one other place in the game and it is dialogue easily missed. To add something that foreshadows an out of no where part of the story is so stupid.

[robertthebard]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Yeah, not giving paying customers what they want is a safe bet, supply and demand can go bite a fat one.

You should run your own company.

Tell that to every author in the world. Or movie maker, I suppose.

ME isn't a book or a movie,it is a completely seperate medium that can be altered on a whim. also plenty of authors and directors have changed movies and books based on customer feedback.

Sherlock.

You really don't know much about crafting a video game, do you?  I've seen some of the fan creation mods over the years that were altered on a whim; I wish I hadn't seen some of them.  You cannot unsee what has been seen.  I'm not trying to be dismissive, or judgemental, or to make too many assumptions here, but DLC costs more to make than some of the people here make a year.  Reunion slideshows would fill the bill for some people, and if not voiced would be relatively cheap to make, but would have part of the reunion clique up in arms because they dared to do slideshows for the reunion.  Then, if they didn't present it "just so", there would be even more outrage than there currently is.  This is just one aspect that I see asked for.  So even if BioWare did what they could afford to do, somebody would be unhappy, and the hate would continue to flow.  I'd bet you right now that if a reunion was done with slideshows, somebody would chime in with "if you were going to do that, it would have been better that you did nothing".

Changed on a whim isn't exactly the case, now is it.  It's nice to throw that out there to make yourself sound reasonable, but frankly, I've built areas in NWN 2.  It took me a week to get one area the way I wanted it to look and feel, and there were going to be 40 areas in the mod I was going to convert from NWN.  After I get the look and feel, I have to start working on populating it, and towns have to have NPC's that aren't static decorations.  I had a script that ran an RNG for 4 random responses, and then skipped which ones had been used, so you couldn't get the same one twice in a row.  It took me 1.5 weeks to get that to work.  NPC's can't look the same, so I have to spend a half hour or so on each one making them look different, or people would complain.  .5 hours x a couple of hundred NPC's, and it's a good thing nobody had to sign my paycheck for that trivial detail work, eh?  However, that's one of those trivial details that a rabid fan will latch on to and call you lazy for not doing, because they have no clue what kind of work is involved in actually doing it.  Don't get me wrong, if I was rich, I might go out and buy a Mercedes on a whim.  But I'm not rich, so I can't.  Developer costs are factored into every decision, and that's why they aren't changed, on a whim.  You don't just push a button and say, there's it's fixed.  Not everyone that wants these changes believe this, but it seems you do.  That's not how it works.

[Alez Zinai]

EntropicAngel wrote...
....
Victory and survival? That was never a theme I saw. I saw victory....

Could you name war that ended like ME3? Is it a victory when opposing leader (responsible for genocide) let you choose one of outcomes he provides? Yes Shepard ended the Reaper threat but he didn't win victory over them. Then what was the story about?

[robertthebard]

plfranke wrote...

I wasn't buying the dlc in hopes it would change the ending. I was buying it in hopes that Leviathan would do something in the battle at Earth. Otherwise, there was literally no point in buying the dlc.

I bought the DLC in hope that it would add some enjoyable time to the main game.  It did.  I was pleased.  It also clarified the endings a bit, which is too bad, since it doesn't matter to me how clear they make them.  They didn't make me feel any better about surviving Harbinger's laser.  That, to me, is equal to the Lazarus Project's DeM of "if you have enough money you can buy a soul from the void".  No amount of discussion is going to change my mind on either.  As presented, this, more than all of the, in my view, mishandling of the Crucible ruins the end of the game for me.  They want Shepard on their last legs, desperately pushing forward despite obviously critical injuries, and while I can't sit here and propose another way to do that, the way it's done, and I have never been there w/out the EC, doesn't add up.  I understand why it's there.  This would have been a 10x worse crapstorm if they'd chosen to end the game there, which I feel is unfortunate, since I would have loved that ending.

[robertthebard]

Alez Zinai wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...
....
Victory and survival? That was never a theme I saw. I saw victory....

Could you name war that ended like ME3? Is it a victory when opposing leader (responsible for genocide) let you choose one of outcomes he provides? Yes Shepard ended the Reaper threat but he didn't win victory over them. Then what was the story about?

So we asked Japan's permission to nuke them in WW II?  You see, we don't get the skinny on what's said in peace talks in wars that don't end that way.  We don't know what kinds of compromises are made between leaders when they put down the guns and talk about it.  We don't know what concessions are made.  Does this mean they reach the same conclusions as are presented in ME?  No, and it can't.  You see, you are now trying to make reality fit into SF.  If a pro-ender did that, the sharks would be in a frenzy about it.  In the two games where I have allowed myself to ignore the DeM of surviving Harbinger's laser, I chose Destroy.  The Reapers are indeed dead, and the galaxy is now free of that threat to begin rebuilding.  I'm sorry that you see doing what you set out to do as compromise simply because SC decided that part of it's moustache twirling exposition should be explaining the function of the crucible.  I don't see it that way.  Perspective is everything.  In your perspective, the whole idea of the catalyst is flawed, and I agree with you there, but I don't agree that it suddenly becomes the focus of the game, any more than any moustache twirling exposition suddenly makes the bad guy into the hero of the tale.  To me, SC was no different than Sovereign on Virmire, or Harbinger on the asteroid at the end of Arrival.  Just looking for a chance to tell you how insignificant you are.  Congratulations for buying it.  I didn't.

Modifié par robertthebard, 03 septembre 2012 - 12:13 .

[robertthebard]

Arcian wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

They aren't changing it my friend, and to buy DLC in the hopes that they are is insanity according to Einstein, so those people have far more pressing concerns than  Mass Effect.

Einstein has nothing to do with this, leave him out of it you evil EA person you.

Einstein wrote...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

[chevyguy87]

plfranke wrote...

To add something that foreshadows an out of no where part of the story is so stupid.

Exactly, this is the key area where almost all post ending DLC will fail especially if it is to be set somewhere in the middle of the story and as you said even worse if one has already completed the game. Leviathan would have worked out better if it was presented to us very early on in the ME3 story line. That way we would have had logic on our side when having our little fireside chat with Glow Stick. Hell maybe the story would have played out completely different if they chose that route, but like I said cutting out content only to release it as DLC is just a criminal thing to do especially since Leviathan contains information that would have been wonderful to know right out of the gate when ME3 dropped back in March. 

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Perhaps not a large number, but in terms of who was willing to set aside silly notions like "artistic integrity" in a consumer product, plenty applies just fine.

I'd disagree, but it's subjective at that point.

plfranke wrote...

@Entropic
I think for the most part, and when everything is said and done, Bioware will be hurt by this whole ending mess. However, I also think that Capitalism doesn't necessarily win in this case. 

For instance, if a lot of Mass Effect 3 fans would have knew how the ending was going to turn out, they wouldn't have pre ordered and may not have played at all. I wouldn't for one, I would have definitely waited for the price to go down and then, I only might have bought it. A lot of people are so attached to the Mass Effect universe (not Bioware but the universe and its characters) that they will buy and dlc that will allow them to interact. There are some people that specifically want romance dlcs for Mass Effect 2 characters (as a strictly Jack romancer I might even want this for the right price and content). A lot of people may buy future dlc in hopes that it will change the ending or at least, whatever happens in the dlc will be shown at the end.

I bought Leviathan without any doubt in my mind that I would see those orbs in action in London. Despite that I was very disappointed in some of Leviathan's explanations that were clearly working under the constraint of the Catalyst, I enjoyed every bit of the dlc before that. To find out at the end that Leviathan did absolutely nothing, was frustrating. It almost seemed like Bioware was making a joke out of the fact that Leviathan was so useless in the new Catalyst dialogue.

Shepard: The Leviathans are a part of this war now!
Catalyst: Good, I welcome their involvement.

Yet, they hadn't done anything. It was confusing, frustrating, and I vowed right then and there I wasn't going to buy anymore dlc. In a perfect world, where if you knew whether or not you were going to enjoy the product and could then make a decision, Capitalism would always be right, in this case, not so much.

No one is buying DLC in the hopes that it will change the endings--at least, no one who's got access to BSN and who has seen Bioware say.

multiple times.

they aren't changing it.

They aren't changing it my friend, and to buy DLC in the hopes that they are is insanity according to Einstein, so those people have far more pressing concerns than  Mass Effect. 

Someone will change it eventually.  The economics are too compelling.  But it could take quite some time.  Once the decline in the franchise value is manifest, however, it will be financial negligence not to do it.

[PuppiesOfDeath2]

I support this thread. It has been one of the most interesting and thoughtful (generally) on BSN, imo.

[Krunjar]

So many words but all i can hear is the futile whine of entitled ego inflated children.

[dorktainian]

to me it's fairly simple.

Bioware is not going to pander to anyones demands. They have given us all a product which it is fair to say is highly disappointing. They insist that we are wrong for not understanding the ending. Then they say it is art.

The ending sucks on so many levels it ain't funny anymore.

So get this straight. Bioware is not going to change the endings.

I say they don't deserve any more of our money if thats the case. The fact of the matter is tho that many of you will continue to buy this half baked churned out rubbish so bioware will continue to make it. The only way to put across your points of view is to not be so forthcoming with your cash. If they dont sell many units then they make take notice of all the people that think their game sucks, instead of existing in a bull**** proof bubble thinking they are immune to criticism.

Vote with your wallet. That is the only way to get your POV across.

[3DandBeyond]

EntropicAngel wrote...



So let it not do well. That's called capitalism. But don't act like because you (the literary "you," not you personally) dislike it it should be changed.

DA ][ did fairly poorly in comparison to it's predecessor because people weren't satisfied with it and told those around them. That's what should be done, not clamor for changes.

You see here's the thing.  I'm not looking to have BW and ME fail.  If everyone goes by this philosophy and just never challenges companies to make what they think are good things then we get nowhere.  Companies would much prefer someone saying, "I don't like this product because of ABC reasons" rather than someone that says let it fail.  I don't want that to happen. 

Also, all products undergo a lot of scrutiny prior to release focused on figuring out what the consumer will or will not like.  Authors have Editors and Publishers and Agents-these people are paid to understand what works and what doesn't and to help the author give fans what they want.  There are focus groups and screeners that screen movies to see what is and is not good.  Companies hire psychologists to determine which demographic group they should target for their products.  You get rebates on products that you send in to help them gather data on who is buying what product-they don't offer rebates because they love you.  Authors, movie producers, and even game devs have changed their products to suit fans, because of one or two things: they want to make a profit and they want to keep legacy players buying future products.  Fans are consumers and are idiots if they mostly like the things a company does, but don't speak up when they see something they don't like.  That does not help the company, nor does just not buying their products.  They have no idea what fans think they did wrong if fans don't tell them. 

I'm not asking you to agree with me and I'm not asking you to give up what you have.  I am asking BW to take another look and reconsider things and let you keep what you like.  I am asking it because in my opinion they have not handled this in the "right" manner-I've got the work history to support that.  Companies cannot afford to let their hurt get in the way of doing business, but fans need to do better too.  I want BW to continue making unique games, ME or ME-like.  I don't want them to just decide to make cookie cutter products that are not about the story and about the characters.  I have specifically stated I want them to succeed, but I want them to remember who brought them to the dance.  I want them to look at the examples of successful people who turned things around because they stopped viewing things as only negative and tried to really see what others are saying.  Communication is key, but just chalking it all up to letting the market decide it all is destructive and not constructive.

Mass consumed art does not exist in a vaccuum-it needs a paying audience to survive.  And human beings need appreciation for their creations.  I want to help BW achieve both.

I'm not demanding anything and I'm not asking anyone to give up what they now have.  I am asking BW to take another look, yet that seems to threaten many people and I think they have to ask themselves why they are so bent on seeing a lot of ME fans unhappy.  I also have to wonder if they think it would have been a good idea for people to never complain in the first place-understand that there likely would have been no more DLC at all if everyone that disliked the original endings had returned their games (retailers already reported a glut of returns and had to make exceptions for ME3 due to this).  How long do you think BW could bleed money?

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 03 septembre 2012 - 03:23 .

[elitehunter34]

Krunjar wrote...

So many words but all i can hear is the futile whine of entitled ego inflated children.

So giving criticism and then suggesting for a way to change the game in accordance with that criticism is the whine of entitled ego inflated children?  Really? Do you honestly believe this?  Are we not allowed to criticize and then suggest ideas to fix those percevied problems.  Why the flamebait?  Seriously?  I don't want to believe that someone would be close minded enough to actually say something like this.

[Xellith]

Krunjar wrote...

So many words but all i can hear is the futile whine of entitled ego inflated children.

I just went to Aldi and got;
Bread
Grapes
Tomatoes
Bananas

and then went to Iceland and got;
1 bottle of Vimto

Therefore your opinion is invalid.

Modifié par Xellith, 03 septembre 2012 - 03:42 .

[AresKeith]

Krunjar wrote...

So many words but all i can hear is the futile whine of entitled ego inflated children.

its funny how your trying to use the word entitled wrong to make it an insult

[Dragoonlordz]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Mass consumed art does not exist in a vaccuum-it needs a paying audience to survive.  And human beings need appreciation for their creations.  I want to help BW achieve both.

They have a willing paying audience, a large one. They have a large number of people who appreciate their creations too. They already have both. This does not mean 'everyone' has to be a member of that paying audience and neither does it mean 'everyone' has to appreciate their creations.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 03 septembre 2012 - 03:53 .