6432 réponses à ce sujet

[Ozida]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

How many millions upon millions of dollars has EAware made off of Mass Effect and all the associated DLC? Take the time to rewrite the game from the Cerberus base assault forwards. Do what's right for the series and for the fans. Forget about MAXIMUM PROFITS just this once.

This point I honestly don't understan either. BioWare doesn't want our money we are willing to pay for a better ending? Huh? What kind of business model is that? Reminds me of arguing with Consuela from Family Guy.

 - BioWare, can you make a better ending, please?
 - No, no. You like this one.
 - How about I give you more money to make a better ending then?
 - No. We make art, you go.

[Sinapus]

Zan51 wrote...

You know what? I have just finished a 9 hour day working at another game company, with  a 1 hour commute either way. I am tired.

I am an intelligent woman, been reading since I was 4 and a half, well educated, a teacher, got an A. Sc. in Forensics, like I said, work for a major gaming company as a GM, studied English Literature, and some French and American, learned about the building blocks of language. I am a published SF writer of 20 years now, I read on average between 5-8 books a week, and I could NOT make sense of what the hell ME3 was doing!

The way all that went before that we were told mattered for ME3 got tossed down the drain, that MP suddenly means so much to the SP game, that godawful last 10 minutes of the ending! I anm not by a long chalk lacking in intelligence, reasoning, vocabulary, or understanding of how to parse classical fiction, non-fiction, and all forms of art to glean every morsel of understanding from them, but ME3 has me beat!

I am honestly coming to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe the reason it makes no sense is because - it makes no sense!  Because the professional discipline of sticking to a theme, a concept, and carrying it through to its natural conclusion was actually missing from some point midway through ME3. 

Instead, somewhere, someone allowed the concept to go haring off willy-nilly in any direction those in charge of it at that time wanted! Instead of being disciplined, they indulged themselves in their dreams and fantasies and put those into the game instead of good old fashioned hard work and sticking to the plot! It isn't artistic, it is self-indulgent and nonsensical.

When you have a good, solid buying fan base, and you try to get what you wrongly see as the rest of the buying public interested in your product at the expense of what you know will sell, you fail to please either lot. The FPS lobby wouldn't have been attracted to ME3 in the numbers they wanted because it was also part of an RPG game, and they don't want that. So we got this hybrid that very few folk were happy with, that really does not make sense because it wasn't designed to make sense, because part way through designing it, they raced off in a different direction!

But, as 3D hand others have proved in their dissertations, it CAN be saved. Will it? I hope so. I really, really hope so, because I loved this game till now.

Well said.

[Dragoonlordz]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Stopped reading here, not getting into debates about which endings are better as I feel they are all equally bad.

However;

Sovereign "we are each a nation, free of weakness"
Catalyst: "We don't kill them, we help to preserve them by ascending them to Reaper form."

The Human Reaper became alive at the end of ME2 despite not being completely built because why? Because most of the minds had already been 'uploaded' to it.

I know for a fact that their minds live on in Reaper form, it doesn't matter in what way or manner, they are there. Period.

Lastly, I saw you type "double-standards" and I know what you're going to say about how people can't say Shepard isn't alive in control and then turn around and say these peoples mind live on. They are totally different things. The catalyst already existed before Shepard uploaded their consciousness to it.

Whereas a Reaper's existence requires organics minds to fuel it from the get go.

Bolded part, yes it does matter. You missed my entire point if did not pick up on that. You wish to butcher and mass murder them even in your idea. My Reapers protect people, save lives, prevent war and never start one anymore. They do not cull races, do not mass murder, they protect every race from such atrocities ever happening again. The galaxy runs itself the people alive are free and nothing about that has changed. The only freedom I took away was the freedom to mass murder or wipe out another species.

In your happy ever after your races war with each other, your races mass murder each other just like always have done. You only have to look at human history to know this, let alone millions of years in ME universe. People come together to fight a common foe but when that foe is no longer they fight amongst themselves over resources, beliefs or strong pick on the weak because they can plus more. Mine protects them all does not harvest or wipe out races in order to do so anymore once I took control (whatever I may be).

Now seems to me out of your happy ever after and my ending more people live, more races are protected from harm in mine than yours. In fact you want to mass murder these people who became Reapers long ago without any idea of whether they wish to be culled by you or whether they even are self aware or have any individuality anymore, to you in your own words it doesn't matter you would kill aka butcher them all anyways.

I'll take a stab at this one. 

Lets take a similiar villian and compare them. The N.a.z.i.'s (grrrr hate that world is filtered) committed many of the same crimes. They destroyed whole people. The threated all civiliations as we knew them. Now What if Audie Murphy took Hitlers place, and suddenly the N.a.z.i.'s became the policemen of the world? How would people feel about the war crimes that they had committed? How would anyone be able to trust them? 

The fact is the reapers are much worse the WW2 Germany, Each one is physical representation of genocide. They can not exist with out an entire advanced species being brutally murdered and broken down into goo, and used to create a single reaper. How could the rest of the galaxy ever look at that with out trepidation? How could you be comfortable knowing that the person providing your protection was the worse mass murdered in the hitory of the universe? 

It doesn't matter that shepard is in charge of the reapers. No one will ever be able to trust them, or to feel comfortable around them. governments will build weapons specifically to counter the reaper threat (which they will believe in). War is an inevitable conclusion of the control ending. 

Trust however is not required. Trust can be built upon over centuries, millenia or however long around for. Once helped rebuild they will not be hanging around street corners chatting with people, they will only come out to prevent wars and mass murder as a last resort. First like said by way of threat of conflict with them if do not stop in attempting to commit genocide on another species or groups trying to start wars. Out of sight out of mind when not doing such. Their only purpose once I became the whatever wish to call me is to protect species, prevent war and prevent genocide. Self preservation of all races and all species includes protection of themselves.

Not by means of mass harvesting or butchering species. It goes for all races and governments, if war is their intention it is no different to a terrorist group. No war will be allowed, not governments and not Reapers. The ones behind the plot will be stopped but only the ones behind it. Just like if they tried to create weapons to attack another race the ones behind that as individuals would be stopped by minimum force possible. The Reapers are a race now in my ending no different to Geth or Humans. All are protected including the Reapers from war. No government leaders or scientists will be allowed to create weapons for the sole purpose of killing another species including the Reapers. Individuals are responsable not entire races and not worlds. Only the ones wanting to start a war will be held accountable.

Credit where it's due however that was a good argument you put forth.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:25 .

[Dragoonlordz]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

One thing I find funny about the Wrex thing is if you kill him in ME2 over the cure in that game, what a bummer it must be to know he could of lived and still have his race cured in the next.

Sucks to be him I guess.

I kept him alive though in ME2.

Kill Wrex in ME2?

ME1 sorry.

[Mystiq6]

The Mass Effect story presented in the games could have been a lot longer. I can't offer any reasons I think as to why. BioWare knows what they're doing but something about Mass Effect screams missed opportunity. It's as if the story in the games got too big and they needed ways to shrink it, didn't realize what some things meant from a game play perspective or went too far in their attempts to appeal to a new audience.

- War assets shouldn't have been cut down to a numbers game. I was expecting to have to place assets, a la the Suicide Mission. This would have made the game a lot longer but would have been much more satisfying. I felt the same disappointment when upgrading the Normandy in Mass Effect 2 and found out that it had no effect on game play. War assets have no affect on game play, only outcomes, and their purpose isn't even clear in-game.
- Priority: Earth should have shown a lot more of what was going on around Earth. I would have liked to have seen the other races doing their part.
- Earth should have been a bigger part of the game. Simply being a human myself just doesn't cut it somehow, and I don't care about Earth in-game. This also would have added at least 3-4 hours onto the game, but it would have easily paid off.
- The story of the Leviathans should have been present throughout the game, which would have foreshadowed the Catalyst and given the reapers more screen time, especially when believe people Cerberus got way too much in comparison.
- The ending of the game could have easily been 10x longer. Of course, that would mean snuffing the current endings as we have them. It's the end to a massive, epic sci-fi series, after all.

It's easy to see that a lot of different writers worked on these games. It's good in pieces but once you look at the whole picture, some things just don't mesh well. BioWare is in the unique position of being one of the developers where the story means a lot more than the game play and gamers are going to be just as critical of the story in BioWare games as they are the game play in Blizzard games: vicious.

I thought Leviathan was a fantastic piece of storytelling but it could have meant a lot more to the outcome of the game and a lot more to the ending (ways in which the ending could have been different from what we have) had the story contained Leviathan right from the beginning. I highly suspect Leviathan might have existed in some form in someone's head a long time ago.

Leviathan being there from the start could have easily given us a completely different ending had their existence been given time to gestate in the story proper. As it is, the ending is already given so Leviathan's story has to fit into it, rather than letting Leviathan affect the ending -- as it so easily could have. I felt that their reluctance to fight, and the reason given for it, was just an easy way out for it to stand as just a sizable war asset.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:25 .

[Warrior Craess]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Actually we are talking about asking bioware to create a DLC (not leviathan) that will expand the endings. We've said we'd even pay for it. Placing it in exactly the same category as the broken steel DLC for Fallout 3. 

The fact that the implications of Leviathan, and the possiblities it creates should impact the endings and doesn't is just another instance of poor story telling. A demonstration that they don't think about the consequences of what they are doing. 

As an exercise in "what if" lets consider the miricale of Palaven, as it concerns indoctrinated reaper forces. How badly could the reapers be hurt if their own forces carried warp bombs, fission weapons, aniti matter bombs etc? 

What if Normandy went around to a few places and attacted the attention of reapers, only to lure them into a place with a few Leviathans? 

What if a Life ship was converted to carry Leviathans instead of produce crops? If some shuttles or drones were loaded with the artifcats? How would the battle for earth have gone then? 

I didn't make the leviathan DLC, but I can certainly see, quite easily how the revelations it had, could easily effect the ending.

No, no, read the post that you originally replied to, and the post there that I was replying to. We were talking about Leviathon specifically.

I did address Leviathan though.  Based one what is revealed by the leviathan DLC. The endings should be effected. The presence or leviathans as active members of the war, changes the war. Even if we still can't go toe to toe, ship to ship in open conflict, the war is effected.  Can we win it with levianthans on our side (at least temporarily?) well, thats definately something that should have been addressed. 

Too bad that all the possiblities of Leviathan were ignored.

[Mystiq6]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

The Mass Effect story presented in the games could have been a lot longer. I can't offer any reasons I think as to why. BioWare knows what they're doing but something about Mass Effect screams missed opportunity. It's as if the story in the games got too big and they needed ways to shrink it, didn't realize what some things meant from a game play perspective or went too far in their attempts to appeal to a new audience.

The problem with ME was that it was simply impossible to fully show the results of our choices. It was simply too much. Bioware was too ambitious.

There's nothing wrong with being ambitious. I just wish they'd followed through. Mass Effect's story is incredibly ambitious and a lack of foresight kept it from being truly epic.

[AresKeith]

Mystiq6 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

The Mass Effect story presented in the games could have been a lot longer. I can't offer any reasons I think as to why. BioWare knows what they're doing but something about Mass Effect screams missed opportunity. It's as if the story in the games got too big and they needed ways to shrink it, didn't realize what some things meant from a game play perspective or went too far in their attempts to appeal to a new audience.

The problem with ME was that it was simply impossible to fully show the results of our choices. It was simply too much. Bioware was too ambitious.

There's nothing wrong with being ambitious. I just wish they'd followed through. Mass Effect's story is incredibly ambitious and a lack of foresight kept it from being truly epic.

they probably could have if EA wasn't known for their strict deadline

[Epique Phael767]

Mystiq6 wrote...

The Mass Effect story presented in the games could have been a lot longer. I can't offer any reasons I think as to why. BioWare knows what they're doing but something about Mass Effect screams missed opportunity. It's as if the story in the games got too big and they needed ways to shrink it, didn't realize what some things meant from a game play perspective or went too far in their attempts to appeal to a new audience.

- War assets shouldn't have been cut down to a numbers game. I was expecting to have to place assets, a la the Suicide Mission. This would have made the game a lot longer but would have been much more satisfying. I felt the same disappointment when upgrading the Normandy in Mass Effect 2 and found out that it had no effect on game play. War assets have no affect on game play, only outcomes, and their purpose isn't even clear in-game.
- Priority: Earth should have shown a lot more of what was going on around Earth. I would have liked to have seen the other races doing their part.
- Earth should have been a bigger part of the game. Simply being a human myself just doesn't cut it somehow, and I don't care about Earth in-game. This also would have added at least 3-4 hours onto the game, but it would have easily paid off.
- The story of the Leviathans should have been present throughout the game, which would have foreshadowed the Catalyst and given the reapers more screen time, especially when believe people Cerberus got way too much in comparison.
- The ending of the game could have easily been 10x longer. Of course, that would mean snuffing the current endings as we have them. It's the end to a massive, epic sci-fi series, after all.

It's easy to see that a lot of different writers worked on these games. It's good in pieces but once you look at the whole picture, some things just don't mesh well. BioWare is in the unique position of being one of the developers where the story means a lot more than the game play and gamers are going to be just as critical of the story in BioWare games as they are the game play in Blizzard games: vicious.

I thought Leviathan was a fantastic piece of storytelling but it could have meant a lot more to the outcome of the game and a lot more to the ending (ways in which the ending could have been different from what we have) had the story contained Leviathan right from the beginning. I highly suspect Leviathan might have existed in some form in someone's head a long time ago. Leviathan being there from the start could have easily given us a completely different ending.

So many writers, but hardly a good idea between them.

[Mystiq6]

AresKeith wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

The Mass Effect story presented in the games could have been a lot longer. I can't offer any reasons I think as to why. BioWare knows what they're doing but something about Mass Effect screams missed opportunity. It's as if the story in the games got too big and they needed ways to shrink it, didn't realize what some things meant from a game play perspective or went too far in their attempts to appeal to a new audience.

The problem with ME was that it was simply impossible to fully show the results of our choices. It was simply too much. Bioware was too ambitious.

There's nothing wrong with being ambitious. I just wish they'd followed through. Mass Effect's story is incredibly ambitious and a lack of foresight kept it from being truly epic.

they probably could have if EA wasn't known for their strict deadline

I don't know if I would blame EA for this. I honestly can't think of a gaming story that's quite as epic as Mass Effect. Certainly Mass Effect had a very anticlimactic ending for one reason or another. Assassin's Creed comes quite close but I'm hoping they stop with the cliffhanger endings and actually give us a pay-off.

It's easy to end a story. You can just say everyone dies and that's it. It's hard to end a story with the momentum you've built up thus far.

[AresKeith]

EntropicAngel wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

they probably could have if EA wasn't known for their strict deadline

 

Nothing to do with EA and everything to do with trying to compile multiple divere pathways into a congruent story.

yes, time constraint and limited resources for ME3 is EA's fault

[Mystiq6]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

There's nothing wrong with being ambitious. I just wish they'd followed through. Mass Effect's story is incredibly ambitious and a lack of foresight kept it from being truly epic.

Nothing wrong with ambition, but it was too much. WHat they tried to do was simply, and still is, impossible.

AresKeith wrote...

they probably could have if EA wasn't known for their strict deadline

 

Nothing to do with EA and everything to do with trying to compile multiple divere pathways into a congruent story.

And therein, I think, lies the problem. Western RPGs love choice. I personally love JRPGs because they tell a very coherent story. How would this have played out if Mass Effect's story was linear? I also love the occassional western RPG (like Mass Effect) but I can't help but wonder how much easier it is to write a linear story than a diverging one like this.

I'm writing a story for a game myself and I don't even want to think about divergent paths. There is only one: you get a choice of two for the ending. Since I'm telling the story, you're going to do what the main character wants to do, with  maybe some non-linearity in the game play, but the story itself follows a single path.

Clearly some people are happy with the endings as is because it lets them fulfill their head-canon (along with what they perceived as the themes of the games) but it sure as hell doesn't do it for me. A linear story may not have been in this hole.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:36 .

[Mystiq6]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

The Mass Effect story presented in the games could have been a lot longer. I can't offer any reasons I think as to why. BioWare knows what they're doing but something about Mass Effect screams missed opportunity. It's as if the story in the games got too big and they needed ways to shrink it, didn't realize what some things meant from a game play perspective or went too far in their attempts to appeal to a new audience.

- War assets shouldn't have been cut down to a numbers game. I was expecting to have to place assets, a la the Suicide Mission. This would have made the game a lot longer but would have been much more satisfying. I felt the same disappointment when upgrading the Normandy in Mass Effect 2 and found out that it had no effect on game play. War assets have no affect on game play, only outcomes, and their purpose isn't even clear in-game.
- Priority: Earth should have shown a lot more of what was going on around Earth. I would have liked to have seen the other races doing their part.
- Earth should have been a bigger part of the game. Simply being a human myself just doesn't cut it somehow, and I don't care about Earth in-game. This also would have added at least 3-4 hours onto the game, but it would have easily paid off.
- The story of the Leviathans should have been present throughout the game, which would have foreshadowed the Catalyst and given the reapers more screen time, especially when believe people Cerberus got way too much in comparison.
- The ending of the game could have easily been 10x longer. Of course, that would mean snuffing the current endings as we have them. It's the end to a massive, epic sci-fi series, after all.

It's easy to see that a lot of different writers worked on these games. It's good in pieces but once you look at the whole picture, some things just don't mesh well. BioWare is in the unique position of being one of the developers where the story means a lot more than the game play and gamers are going to be just as critical of the story in BioWare games as they are the game play in Blizzard games: vicious.

I thought Leviathan was a fantastic piece of storytelling but it could have meant a lot more to the outcome of the game and a lot more to the ending (ways in which the ending could have been different from what we have) had the story contained Leviathan right from the beginning. I highly suspect Leviathan might have existed in some form in someone's head a long time ago. Leviathan being there from the start could have easily given us a completely different ending.

So many writers, but hardly a good idea between them.

That's just not fair. It may not be completely coherent when looked at as a whole but overall it is still a very good story.

[Epique Phael767]

Mystiq6 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

The Mass Effect story presented in the games could have been a lot longer. I can't offer any reasons I think as to why. BioWare knows what they're doing but something about Mass Effect screams missed opportunity. It's as if the story in the games got too big and they needed ways to shrink it, didn't realize what some things meant from a game play perspective or went too far in their attempts to appeal to a new audience.

The problem with ME was that it was simply impossible to fully show the results of our choices. It was simply too much. Bioware was too ambitious.

There's nothing wrong with being ambitious. I just wish they'd followed through. Mass Effect's story is incredibly ambitious and a lack of foresight kept it from being truly epic.

they probably could have if EA wasn't known for their strict deadline

(snip)

It's easy to end a story. You can just say everyone dies and that's it. It's hard to end a story with the momentum you've built up thus far.

It feels like they didn't try very hard. The only thing headscratching to me is why they tried to make the game for as wide of an audience as possible and then gave it an "artistic" interperative ending most people wouldn't understand. For the audience they aimed for (Which I do not agree with making the target audience wider) they should have gone for the simplistic "everyone dies" or "happy " ending. doing what they did makes no sense.

[3DandBeyond]

robertthebard wrote...


None of the choices are supposed to prevent killer robots, they are supposed to end the war.  3 of 4 do.  1 of 3 eliminates the Reapers from the scene completely.

Nope.  Shepard's goal is to kill reapers to thus save the galaxy and end the war.  The choices are meant to solve the kid's problem and they do, all of them do so temporarily.

[Blind2Society]

84 pages in 4 days huh? Damn.

Time to go read the OP.

[AresKeith]

EntropicAngel wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

yes, time constraint and limited resources for ME3 is EA's fault

No it is not. And it isn't simply time contraints and limited resources, like you're imagining. It's more like, to do justice to it, right about now is when we'd be getting ME2. And it would have cost as much as ME2 and ME3 combined. And it would be as big as both games put together.

That would never have happened, especially if Bioware were still independent.

I agree with that, I think Bioware had enough to Publish themselves