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One Last Plea - Do the Right Thing


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#2101
3DandBeyond

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Or Synthesis, Robert. It's fairly obvious it's leaning towards Synthesis.


Nope.  The kid prefers synthesis for some unclear reason, not necessarily Bioware.  The kid and thus the reapers see it as good, but that does not mean the writers do.  If you believe they meant for a real fight to not ever possibly lead to a real victory, then you have to believe they meant for dead reapers to be the canon way to end this.  It was said far more often then the robotically repeated, conventional victory is not possible. 

Synthesis may well be a distraction.  But, anything the kid wants is not what the galaxy wants.

#2102
Jadebaby

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Logan Cloud wrote...

Again, you pull that out to distract from my main point.

"You" is referring to people like you specifically. People who come into threads like these and demand something be done about something you don't like because you don't like it.

Again, you know exactly who and what I was referring to.


LOL this whole thread is about adding to the endings, anyone complaining about that in here could not do it in a better place.

I've got a better idea, if you don't like what is being discussed in this thread, DON'T OPEN IT!

The only thing you are doing by contributing is helping to bump it up the first page lol.

And I take offense to "people like you" because other than the fact that I dislike the endings, you know NOTHING about me. And I have never threatened nor harrassed BioWare,or made demands of them. So if you're going to be a ******, just STFU.

Anyone who goes "waaa... All anti-enders are spoiled whiners making demands, waaa..." or "waaa all pro-enders are generalizing, condescending douche bags, waaaa." Both need to just need to grow the **** up or STFU.

#2103
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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AresKeith wrote...

I agree with that, I think Bioware had enough to Publish themselves


Bioware would never, never have done that.

Look at their history. Bioware has always had a two-year developmental cycle. That means that ME2 could never have lived up to what it should have been, regardless of EA.

#2104
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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3DandBeyond wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Or Synthesis, Robert. It's fairly obvious it's leaning towards Synthesis.


Nope.  The kid prefers synthesis for some unclear reason, not necessarily Bioware.  The kid and thus the reapers see it as good, but that does not mean the writers do.  If you believe they meant for a real fight to not ever possibly lead to a real victory, then you have to believe they meant for dead reapers to be the canon way to end this.  It was said far more often then the robotically repeated, conventional victory is not possible. 

Synthesis may well be a distraction.  But, anything the kid wants is not what the galaxy wants.


When I said "it," I was referring to the Catalyst.

#2105
Dragoonlordz

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3DandBeyond wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Or Synthesis, Robert. It's fairly obvious it's leaning towards Synthesis.


Nope.  The kid prefers synthesis for some unclear reason, not necessarily Bioware.  The kid and thus the reapers see it as good, but that does not mean the writers do.  If you believe they meant for a real fight to not ever possibly lead to a real victory, then you have to believe they meant for dead reapers to be the canon way to end this.  It was said far more often then the robotically repeated, conventional victory is not possible. 

Synthesis may well be a distraction.  But, anything the kid wants is not what the galaxy wants.


Since when do you know what the galaxy wants? The only thing you know is they did not want to die, killing the Reapers is merely one way of doing this. Controlling them is another. I never picked synthesis so not going to touch that with 10ft barge pole in regards to this element. My victory in control saves more lives than any victory you can come up with as your happy ending. Rather than going through my ending all over again however here is summary in another thread.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:49 .


#2106
Jadebaby

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bolded part, yes it does matter. You missed my entire point if did not pick up on that. You wish to butcher and mass murder them even in your idea.


Stopped reading here, I already stated I'm not comparing endings, they are all as equally bad as each other, you cannot disprove that without using headcanon. The very fact that you have to open the discussion with "your idea sucks, while my ideaa...." Shows that to bolster up your own ending, you have to put down the others.

Which I actually understand, you know why? Because.they.are.all.as.bad.as.each.other.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:46 .


#2107
AresKeith

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EntropicAngel wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I agree with that, I think Bioware had enough to Publish themselves


Bioware would never, never have done that.

Look at their history. Bioware has always had a two-year developmental cycle. That means that ME2 could never have lived up to what it should have been, regardless of EA.


Bioware has always had a two-year development cycle because of the Publisher, if Bioware publish themselves they can give themselves as long as they feel they need to work on the game.

#2108
Dridengx

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lol

#2109
Dragoonlordz

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Jade8aby88 wrote...


Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bolded part, yes it does matter. You missed my entire point if did not pick up on that. You wish to butcher and mass murder them even in your idea.


Stopped reading here, I already stated I'm not comparing endings, they are all as equally bad as each other, you cannot disprove that without using headcanon. The very fact that you have to open the discussion with "your idea sucks, while my ideaa...." Shows that to bolster up your own ending, you have to put down the others.

Which I actually understand, you know why? Because.they.are.all.as.bad.as.each.other.


I do not consider my ending bad at all. In fact I consider my ending better than any that others have come up with in here so far (imho). My ending set the stage, what happens a million years later, a thousand years later is always headcanon but always occurs as headcanon even if you had any ending you can dream of there will be parts of it using headcanon because Bioware cannot write a million years or thousand years worth of content in a single ending. It preseves more life than any others I have read, that is what the galaxy wants at the most basic level. To live and that is why the galaxy is even fighting the Reapers to prevent their deaths. The only reason I did not like Synthesis (which potentially) can save more maybe is because in that your change everyone but in mine they all remain the same as before.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:57 .


#2110
Ozida

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Mystiq6 wrote...

And therein, I think, lies the problem. Western RPGs love choice. I personally love JRPGs because they tell a very coherent story. How would this have played out if Mass Effect's story was linear? I also love the occassional western RPG (like Mass Effect) but I can't help but wonder how much easier it is to write a linear story than a diverging one like this.

I'm writing a story for a game myself and I don't even want to think about divergent paths. There is only one: you get a choice of two for the ending. Since I'm telling the story, you're going to do what the main character wants to do, with  maybe some non-linearity in the game play, but the story itself follows a single path.

Clearly some people are happy with the endings as is because it lets them fulfill their head-canon (along with what they perceived as the themes of the games) but it sure as hell doesn't do it for me. A linear story may not have been in this hole.


That's exactly it. Divergent pathways means twice as much work, then four times, then eight, then sixteen...and that's only four real choices. It's incredibly, almost unfathomingly time-consuming.


Which just requires more hard work, doesn't it?

As a huge fan of Fallout 2, I easily remember over a dozen of different choices, if not more, throughout the game. Large ones and small ones... A huge world of choices of every step your character takes, of every dialogue. And at the end you could get about 3-5 different outcomes for main locations (~55 critical differences in the end). So it's not impossible, and Mass Effect is not the first series that tried that. If BioWare couldn't do it right, they shouldn't do it in the first place. To get yourself in a mess of choices only to say: "It was too hard to finish it properly" is a weak way to develop the plot.

I think, the cornerstone of the problem is the idea that the ending should have choices in the first place. That Shepard should decide of something at the very end of the game. I would much rather prefer, if endings where just outcomes based on your previous actions. You cured the genophage? Cool, everybody is happy. But wait, you killed Wrex? Then expect a new war... Something like that. Not a pushed selection of colorful death that has practically nothing to do with the rest of the game. IMHO.

Modifié par Ozida, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:54 .


#2111
Epique Phael767

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AresKeith wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

I agree with that, I think Bioware had enough to Publish themselves


Bioware would never, never have done that.

Look at their history. Bioware has always had a two-year developmental cycle. That means that ME2 could never have lived up to what it should have been, regardless of EA.


Bioware has always had a two-year development cycle because of the Publisher, if Bioware publish themselves they can give themselves as long as they feel they need to work on the game.

"A delayed game has the potential to save itself, but a rushed game is forever bad;" -Shigeru Miyamoto

#2112
Jadebaby

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bolded part, yes it does matter. You missed my entire point if did not pick up on that. You wish to butcher and mass murder them even in your idea.


Stopped reading here, I already stated I'm not comparing endings, they are all as equally bad as each other, you cannot disprove that without using headcanon. The very fact that you have to open the discussion with "your idea sucks, while my ideaa...." Shows that to bolster up your own ending, you have to put down the others.

Which I actually understand, you know why? Because.they.are.all.as.bad.as.each.other.


I do not consider my ending bad at all. In fact I consider my ending better than any that others have come up with in here so far (imho). My ending set the stage, what happens a million years later, a thousand years later is always headcanon but always occurs as headcanon even if you had any ending you can dream of there will be parts of it using headcanon because Bioware cannot write a million years or thousand years worth of content in a single ending. It preseves more life than any others I have read, that is what the galaxy wants at the most basic level. To live and that is why the galaxy is even fighting the Reapers to prevent their deaths.


But that's just your opinion. If it were fact. No one would pick the other endings.

#2113
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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AresKeith wrote...

Bioware has always had a two-year development cycle because of the Publisher, if Bioware publish themselves they can give themselves as long as they feel they need to work on the game.


Since Baldur's Gate, Bioware has had a 2-year cycle. What makes you think they would have changed?

#2114
Dragoonlordz

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Jade8aby88 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bolded part, yes it does matter. You missed my entire point if did not pick up on that. You wish to butcher and mass murder them even in your idea.


Stopped reading here, I already stated I'm not comparing endings, they are all as equally bad as each other, you cannot disprove that without using headcanon. The very fact that you have to open the discussion with "your idea sucks, while my ideaa...." Shows that to bolster up your own ending, you have to put down the others.

Which I actually understand, you know why? Because.they.are.all.as.bad.as.each.other.


I do not consider my ending bad at all. In fact I consider my ending better than any that others have come up with in here so far (imho). My ending set the stage, what happens a million years later, a thousand years later is always headcanon but always occurs as headcanon even if you had any ending you can dream of there will be parts of it using headcanon because Bioware cannot write a million years or thousand years worth of content in a single ending. It preseves more life than any others I have read, that is what the galaxy wants at the most basic level. To live and that is why the galaxy is even fighting the Reapers to prevent their deaths. The only reason I did not like Synthesis (which potentially) can save more maybe is because in that your change everyone but in mine they all remain the same as before.


But that's just your opinion. If it were fact. No one would pick the other endings.


The point is you keep saying all the endings are bad but clearly for me mine was not and there is very good logical reason behind why I feel that way. So I do not accept this statement by you of them all being bad.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:00 .


#2115
3DandBeyond

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I would still like to know what stake people that don't want this have in this. I'm asking Bioware to consider this and it has zero effect on what you have. It can however very possibly make Bioware some money that could very possibly lead to more DLC for you.

Please tell me how any of this hurts you. As yet no one has given one single rational reason for being against it.

Reasons give to date have been:
*I'd know it exists-ok, that's not rational.
*Too many people would play it. Ok, seriously this was said and it proves my point that some people do agree, it would be popular. But, they don't want it to happen because it would be popular. This was said and again, it makes no sense to me.
*It's their art and they don't have to or shouldn't change it because artists don't give in to fans. Wrong, artists do change things for the wishes of fans. Not doing so is myopic and antithetical to profits for consumer "art". Leonardo da Vinci altered his art to suit his benefactors. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Charles Dickens and Jules Verne altered the endings of their works to suit fans. Authors bend to the wishes of Agents, Editors, and Publishers who have them fit their work to fans. Authors also often write multiple versions of book endings just so Publishers are ready in case of fan outcry. Focus groups guide products to suit fans. Beta testing guides products to fix bugs as well as content to suit fans. Movies often have Director's cuts and release versions-some have many different versions. Movies have been released with endings that people did not like and so new versions were released. Superheroes have been killed off and brought back due to fan pressure. It happens all the time. And why do they do this? Two reasons. To make money and to keep fans-sometimes they just feel it is the right thing to do.

I have not demanded anything, nor am I suggesting Bioware kill your firstborn, burn your copy of ME3, or force you to smile at the end of the game. I'm not asking for bunnies and rainbows and clowns. I am asking for a path to a win-a victory-a Shepard lives amongst the pain and suffering that has happened. I am asking for a plausible way for this to happen that does not involve immoral, dark choices with sunshine epilogs. I want an ending that would lead to Shepard authentically sacrificing his/her life with sadness and bittersweet tears all around because it was done for the real, actual good. And I want one possible way that could be difficult as hell to get to a Shepard, EDI, the geth live, friends unite, the reapers die, and we can say goodbye to the hero of 3 stories, 3 games, face to face. I am asking to be allowed to pay for the privilege of said content. I am asking for an ending that fits with the Shepard I played-where themes of redemption, unity, character, heart, friendship, and diversity matter and where true self-determination and self-reliance can begin. I am asking please.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:01 .


#2116
Dragoonlordz

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3DandBeyond wrote...

I would still like to know what stake people that don't want this have in this. I'm asking Bioware to consider this and it has zero effect on what you have. It can however very possibly make Bioware some money that could very possibly lead to more DLC for you.

Please tell me how any of this hurts you. As yet no one has given one single rational reason for being against it.

Reasons give to date have been:
*I'd know it exists-ok, that's not rational.
*Too many people would play it. Ok, seriously this was said and it proves my point that some people do agree, it would be popular. But, they don't want it to happen because it would be popular. This was said and again, it makes no sense to me.
*It's their art and they don't have to or shouldn't change it because artists don't give into fans. Wrong, artists do change things for the wishes of fans. Not doing so is myopic and antithetical to profits for consumer "art". Leonardo da Vinci altered his art to suit his benefactors. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Charles Dickens and Jules Verne altered the endings of their works to suit fans. Authors bend to the wishes of Agents, Editors, and Publishers who have them fit their work to fans. Authors also often write multiple versions of book endings just so Publishers are ready in case of fan outcry. Focus groups guide products to suit fans. Beta testing guides products to fix bugs as well as content to suit fans. Movies often have Director's cuts and release versions-some have many different versions. Movies have been released with endings that people did not like and so new versions were released. Superheroes have been killed off and brought back due to fan pressure. It happens all the time. And why do they do this? Two reasons. To make money and to keep fans-sometimes they just feel it is the right thing to do.

I have not demanded anything, nor am I suggesting Bioware kill your firstborn, burn your copy of ME3, or force you to smile at the end of the game. I'm not asking for bunnies and rainbows and clowns. I am asking for a path to a win-a victory-a Shepard lives amongst the pain and suffering that has happened. I am asking for a plausible way for this to happen that does not involve immoral, dark choices with sunshine epilogs. I want an ending that would lead to Shepard authentically sacrificing his/her life with sadness and bittersweet tears all around because it was done for the real, actual good. And I want one possible way that could be difficult as hell to get to a Shepard, EDI, the geth live, friends unite, the reapers die, and we can say goodbye to the hero of 3 stories, 3 games, face to face. I am asking to be allowed to pay for the privilege of said content. I am asking for an ending that fits with the Shepard I played-where themes of redemption, unity, character, heart, friendship, and diversity matter and where true self-determination and self-reliance can begin. I am asking please.


Because of how you wrote that in such a biased and belittling way towards those against your proposal here is a reason why they should not. Because they (Bioware) said so.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:04 .


#2117
AresKeith

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EntropicAngel wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Bioware has always had a two-year development cycle because of the Publisher, if Bioware publish themselves they can give themselves as long as they feel they need to work on the game.


Since Baldur's Gate, Bioware has had a 2-year cycle. What makes you think they would have changed?


because Baldur's Gate wasn't Published by Bioware, and it basically takes longer to make games now than it did in the 90's because of new graphics and etc. The real problem is that Publishers like EA and Activi$ion always tries to beat there competition by trying to get their games out as quick as possible

#2118
Dragoonlordz

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AresKeith wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Bioware has always had a two-year development cycle because of the Publisher, if Bioware publish themselves they can give themselves as long as they feel they need to work on the game.


Since Baldur's Gate, Bioware has had a 2-year cycle. What makes you think they would have changed?


because Baldur's Gate wasn't Published by Bioware, and it basically takes longer to make games now than it did in the 90's because of new graphics and etc. The real problem is that Publishers like EA and Activi$ion always tries to beat there competition by trying to get their games out as quick as possible


It works on a timeslot system for getting content burned to disc and produced ready for dispatch if I recall correctly. Certain parts of the year are allocated and also registered to your product being printed/published/written to disc at third party companies which speciailize in creating on mass the the copies for releasing. Publishers use this system so they have to fit their products of all their studios within this framework. Now how long between when slots open I do not know but a delay and production time isn't decided on a whim.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:11 .


#2119
3DandBeyond

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Jade8aby88 wrote...


Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bolded part, yes it does matter. You missed my entire point if did not pick up on that. You wish to butcher and mass murder them even in your idea.


Stopped reading here, I already stated I'm not comparing endings, they are all as equally bad as each other, you cannot disprove that without using headcanon. The very fact that you have to open the discussion with "your idea sucks, while my ideaa...." Shows that to bolster up your own ending, you have to put down the others.

Which I actually understand, you know why? Because.they.are.all.as.bad.as.each.other.


Yep.  And whether or not someone just loves the endings is a moot point.  It isn't pertinent to this discussion.  I am not asking them to surrender anything or to give up what they now have.  I actually think it's like I can ask someone for chocolate ice cream and some people will insert the idea that I should not have it because vanilla is best.  That's an opinion. 

The problem is only someone with issues would try to tell someone not to ask for something they want and be so attached to them not getting it.  I have no idea what those issues are, but having studied Psychology I am pretty sure I have a clue.  These people are not that happy with what they got and misery loves company.  They don't want anyone else happy, either.  See, if I were happy, I wouldn't be here.  I'd be playing the game I love so much.  Or, I'd be spreading that love all around.  And I'd want everyone to be having that kind of fun, too.  I don't get the anger and bitterness over someone asking for something a tad bit "happier".  Especially when the alternative is dark, immoral, and oddly cast as bunnies and rainbows with the aftermath that is shown in each ending.  It's surreal.

#2120
Dragoonlordz

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bolded part, yes it does matter. You missed my entire point if did not pick up on that. You wish to butcher and mass murder them even in your idea.


Stopped reading here, I already stated I'm not comparing endings, they are all as equally bad as each other, you cannot disprove that without using headcanon. The very fact that you have to open the discussion with "your idea sucks, while my ideaa...." Shows that to bolster up your own ending, you have to put down the others.

Which I actually understand, you know why? Because.they.are.all.as.bad.as.each.other.


Yep.  And whether or not someone just loves the endings is a moot point.  It isn't pertinent to this discussion.  I am not asking them to surrender anything or to give up what they now have.  I actually think it's like I can ask someone for chocolate ice cream and some people will insert the idea that I should not have it because vanilla is best.  That's an opinion. 

The problem is only someone with issues would try to tell someone not to ask for something they want and be so attached to them not getting it.  I have no idea what those issues are, but having studied Psychology I am pretty sure I have a clue.  These people are not that happy with what they got and misery loves company.  They don't want anyone else happy, either.  See, if I were happy, I wouldn't be here.  I'd be playing the game I love so much.  Or, I'd be spreading that love all around.  And I'd want everyone to be having that kind of fun, too.  I don't get the anger and bitterness over someone asking for something a tad bit "happier".  Especially when the alternative is dark, immoral, and oddly cast as bunnies and rainbows with the aftermath that is shown in each ending.  It's surreal.


My discussion with her has nothing to do with what you want to discuss. She was talking about the content of the ending I liked and it's impact.

I addressed your issues in another discussion many pages back.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:16 .


#2121
Jadebaby

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3DandBeyond wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bolded part, yes it does matter. You missed my entire point if did not pick up on that. You wish to butcher and mass murder them even in your idea.


Stopped reading here, I already stated I'm not comparing endings, they are all as equally bad as each other, you cannot disprove that without using headcanon. The very fact that you have to open the discussion with "your idea sucks, while my ideaa...." Shows that to bolster up your own ending, you have to put down the others.

Which I actually understand, you know why? Because.they.are.all.as.bad.as.each.other.


Yep.  And whether or not someone just loves the endings is a moot point.  It isn't pertinent to this discussion.  I am not asking them to surrender anything or to give up what they now have.  I actually think it's like I can ask someone for chocolate ice cream and some people will insert the idea that I should not have it because vanilla is best.  That's an opinion. 

The problem is only someone with issues would try to tell someone not to ask for something they want and be so attached to them not getting it.  I have no idea what those issues are, but having studied Psychology I am pretty sure I have a clue.  These people are not that happy with what they got and misery loves company.  They don't want anyone else happy, either.  See, if I were happy, I wouldn't be here.  I'd be playing the game I love so much.  Or, I'd be spreading that love all around.  And I'd want everyone to be having that kind of fun, too.  I don't get the anger and bitterness over someone asking for something a tad bit "happier".  Especially when the alternative is dark, immoral, and oddly cast as bunnies and rainbows with the aftermath that is shown in each ending.  It's surreal.



Agree on every single word.

And if they are not as you described, the only other variable is "White-knighting", the amount of "because BioWare said so" and "don't compromise their art" that's being thrown around in this thread. I'd say that it's pretty present one.

#2122
Mystiq6

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Epique Phael767 wrote...
It feels like they didn't try very hard. The only thing headscratching to me is why they tried to make the game for as wide of an audience as possible and then gave it an "artistic" interperative ending most people wouldn't understand. For the audience they aimed for (Which I do not agree with making the target audience wider) they should have gone for the simplistic "everyone dies" or "happy " ending. doing what they did makes no sense.

Now, I must admit I'm no professional writer. I'm completely self-taught. I have problems with characterization, plotting, pacing and just about everything. I can recognize a well-written story but it's a lot harder to write one.

BioWare ended up with the same problem that I'm learning about and running into with the main antagonist of the main plot from my story. The main villian is powerful enough to the point of being unbeatable. Nearly every antagonist has a weakness, as does the protagonist. Shepard has a weakness: he's just a human and he can easily be killed. The reapers are billions of years old and, as told to us by Sovereign, are nigh omnipotent and have no weaknesses. As is drilled into our heads throughout the games, they present such a strong threat that you have no idea how to beat them up until the last 5 minutes of the last game.

This is where I think the crux of the problem with Mass Effect comes from. Someone, anyone, stop me if you think I'm wrong.

BioWare wanted to present the strongest antagonist in literature, something billions of years old, so old that mere mortals cannot comprehend their strength and existence. Here's Sovereign's entire exchange from Mass Effect 1, and please read all of it because it sets up the tone of how terrible a threat the reapers are:

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own. You cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.

Reaper, a label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they choose to call us is irrelevant. We simply are.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

Confidence born of ignorance. The cycle cannot be broken.

The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance and at the apex of their glory, they are extinguished. The Protheans were not the first. They did not create the citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. They merely found them, the legacy of my kind.

Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

We have no beginning, we have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.

My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness. You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence.

We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape your doom.

Your words are as empty as your future. I am the vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over."

Do you remember what you felt the first time you heard this? Honestly, blood rushed to my head. You had no clue how to kill Sovereign and end the reaper threat, especially after you heard that Sovereign was just one of millions, if not billions. All you knew is that you really wanted to beat the ever loving crap out of Sovereign and watch his corpse burn. From a story standpoint, the reapers obviously stood for something. There was symbolism here, it was just that the game purposefully wasn't letting on yet. From experience in other stories where the threat is so high, I had a strong feeling that there was going to be some sort of philosophical solution, or something else slightly mind-bending.

Take Matrix: Revolutions. To end the Matrix itself, the machines are their own undoing. Their weakness is that they want to be free. Agent Smith grew sick of the prison and wanted out. The machines themselves are too numerous and powerful to fight conventionally. The machines' weakness is the same freedom that humans want and rather than having to pull a deus ex machina like Mass Effect, the ending to the Matrix grew rather organically (pun intended) around the events throughout the series.

The reapers contained no weaknesses, claimed to be superior in every facet to every race alive today, refused to listen to us in any capacity and wanted nothing but to destroy us. The game did not even pretend to explore ways in which to kill reapers until pulling a deus ex right at the beginning of the third game. You can argue that the reapers and the Catalyst stand for humanity's (real humanity, not in-game humanity) follies. We will be our own destruction if we don't put aside our differences and stand together.

And then how do you beat the reapers? I can't think of a way without it feeling cheesy. Beating the reapers required a philosophical conclusion, which the game lacked and never explored. My quick answer? You had to unite the entire galaxy, no questions asked, get nearly a perfect score and then you could win conventionally. Instead, the game chose to make very literal points instead of exploring the themes opened up by Sovereign in the first game.

"You exist because we allow it and you will end because we demand it." It's safe to say that this is the most iconic line in the game and ignored at every turn since being said. The end of this game should have come full circle and swung back around to what Sovereign said. In retrospect, nothing any reaper said or anything we've learned since has proven anything of what Sovereign said about "fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding; There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own. You cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension."

Did Leviathan need to exist? It might have worked. Did the reapers need a reason to do what they did? This is likely what soured the game's plot. Instead of focusing on the philosophical nature of Sovereign's conversation, the game went on to make literal answers.

Of course, we realize what I just said is all garbage by beating the game because obviously it is about sacrifice. We must sacrifice people for the greater good or space monsters will harvest us until they can figure out how to stop us from destroying ourselves.

BioWare probably had the same thought I'm having with my antagonist. I want to create the ultimate evil. What makes an evil ultimate? There is nothing stronger. How do you make nothing stronger than it? Make it unbeatable. Problem is, it has to be beatable unless it is a tragedy. Mass Effect and my story are not tragedies. BioWare resolved it with a deus ex. By making Sovereign as he was, expectations were set up that the reapers were the ultimate evil (as well as the expectation that some kind of philosophical question and answer was forthcoming). The second or third game should have at least had a sub plot of the reapers' weakness. Leviathan, if introduced in the second game, could have served that purpose.

We're all much more critical of the game than we need to be for many reasons. Most of them to do with the anticlimactic ending and the lack of fulfillment with "Sovereign's Promise", as it were, and the deus ex machina to beat the reapers. I still feel like the game handed me an "I Win" button. All that hard work to get to that point, only to be told that I cannot win without basically accept the white flag of surrender from the guy I'm trying to beat.

The reapers' real weakness is that they're a bunch of dumbasses and couldn't clean the galaxy of all traces of anything in 50,000 years, which allowed the Crucible to survive for millions of years.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:34 .


#2123
3DandBeyond

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Jade8aby88 wrote...


Agree on every single word.

And if they are not as you described, the only other variable is "White-knighting", the amount of "because BioWare said so" and "don't compromise their art" that's being thrown around in this thread. I'd say that it's pretty present one.


Yes, agreed.  Bioware can make up their own minds.  But a lot of people like to speak for them.  Software development is always in a state of flux and with patches and DLC, games are meant to be augmented and even altered.  I've modded forums (game dev forum for one), done private beta testing, and I've gotten a little bit of insight into how some things are handled internally-the input of fans.  And, at many other companies it does work and they welcome it.  One dev I have dealt with has 2 sites for fans-one site is just for suggestions and complaints and they reply.  They also altered things and they were happy to do so.

#2124
Dragoonlordz

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Jade8aby88 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Dragoonlordz wrote...

Bolded part, yes it does matter. You missed my entire point if did not pick up on that. You wish to butcher and mass murder them even in your idea.


Stopped reading here, I already stated I'm not comparing endings, they are all as equally bad as each other, you cannot disprove that without using headcanon. The very fact that you have to open the discussion with "your idea sucks, while my ideaa...." Shows that to bolster up your own ending, you have to put down the others.

Which I actually understand, you know why? Because.they.are.all.as.bad.as.each.other.


Yep.  And whether or not someone just loves the endings is a moot point.  It isn't pertinent to this discussion.  I am not asking them to surrender anything or to give up what they now have.  I actually think it's like I can ask someone for chocolate ice cream and some people will insert the idea that I should not have it because vanilla is best.  That's an opinion. 

The problem is only someone with issues would try to tell someone not to ask for something they want and be so attached to them not getting it.  I have no idea what those issues are, but having studied Psychology I am pretty sure I have a clue.  These people are not that happy with what they got and misery loves company.  They don't want anyone else happy, either.  See, if I were happy, I wouldn't be here.  I'd be playing the game I love so much.  Or, I'd be spreading that love all around.  And I'd want everyone to be having that kind of fun, too.  I don't get the anger and bitterness over someone asking for something a tad bit "happier".  Especially when the alternative is dark, immoral, and oddly cast as bunnies and rainbows with the aftermath that is shown in each ending.  It's surreal.



Agree on every single word.

And if they are not as you described, the only other variable is "White-knighting", the amount of "because BioWare said so" and "don't compromise their art" that's being thrown around in this thread. I'd say that it's pretty present one.


You: I want this and that, make it happen, I will pay for it and noone else has to download it if doesn't want it.

Bioware: No we are producing different content to that.

You: I want this and that still, make it happen, yadda yadda yadda.

Bioware: We told you no, we are producing different content.

You: I told you to produce this and that now make it happen, others don't need to download it's optional.

Bioware: *sigh* Whats point of talking to you if you refuse to listen to anything we say...

You: I'm still waiting for this and that, where is it, make it already, it's optional for other people, do it.

Bioware: -silence- (for good reason too, if you ignore what Bioware say -why say anything).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:24 .


#2125
CronoDragoon

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Okay, how did we go from zero Lightning avatars to forty in the span of a few days. Someone explain! Did FF13-3 get announced?