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What exactly is wrong with Day 1 DLC?


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#401
Chaotic-Fusion

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Omega2079 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Omega2079 wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Ok, I'm going to ask something to the people defending these crappy business practices here:

Would you, as a consumer, prefer paying for Day-one DLC like you did for "From ashes", or would you like it being given for free with new purchases like Zaeed? As a thank you to people who bought the game?

No "EA isn't a charity", "It's perfectly ok!", "It's been done before" excuses, just tell me, what business model do you prefer?


When businesses sell products, they're not really giving away things for free. Calling it free is just a way to spin it. Any costs to them -things like charge card fees, shipping, etc- if they don't add them to the price of the products at the time of purchase, are accounted for and integrated into the price before you make the purchase.

I prefer the model where businesses guage the market to the best of their abilities, and based on consumer demand, products either sell well or they don't. I prefer this because it puts responsiblity on the consumer to make decisions based on their preferences. This allows me to make decision for myself, rather than a politician (someone that can never fully understand what's demanded in a market) and it puts presure (scrutiny) on businesses to make the best offers they can.


Yes, Zaeed was included in the price of the game, why wasn't From Ashes treated like that? Bioware, and the industry, is shifting strategies, and I don't like what they're doing.  But fair enough. I stil see something dishonest in removing something as integral as Javik from the main game. Because of how it impacts the story. Before he had been removed, as seen in the leaked script, Javik was written to be the catalyst. How much does that say about Bioware's art if their willing to butcher their script so much for cash?

I have no problem whatsoever with DLC like Warden's Keep for DA:O. That, in my opinion, is how it should be handled. It's a fun side-quest, which was clearly developed in the interim between the game going gold and release. It's optional, Javik clearly isn't.



From Ashes was accounted for in the CE, and as a spearate dlc.

As for Javik, I found the dlc to not make a big impact on the game. I'm fine with having bought it later on, rather than the with the CE. I played through the first time without it. It's addional content. Not having it doesn't break the game.


And why wasn't it accounted for in the standard game, like Zaeed? According to Bioware, it was developed in the same time as Zaeed, the time between the game going gold and release. Shifting strategies, trying to maximize profits. 

Javik, before being removed for DLC, was supposed to be integral to the plot. This kind of strategy disgusts me. Especially when they regularly use the "artistic integrity" excuse.

Removing the whole Tuchanka arc would't break the game. You'd still build the crucible, and defeat the reapers, losing a few war assets. Should it have been removed as well? Maybe included in the price of the collectors edition? Nothing wrong with that.

Modifié par Chaotic-Fusion, 08 septembre 2012 - 09:29 .


#402
Blueprotoss

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Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

So, as a consumer, you have no problem with paying 10$ for D1-DLC when you could get it included in the price of the game?

Ok.

From Ashes wasn't part of ME3 unless if you bought the CE for ME3.  Zaeed and Javik are two different things.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 08 septembre 2012 - 09:40 .


#403
Blueprotoss

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Paying extra for stuff that is already on the disk you just bought is bull****. That's the bottom line. If a company is going to charge extra for it, don't put it on the disk. 

Javik was on the disc while the rest of From Ashes wasn't on the disc just like Kasumi and Kasumi's Stolen Memory was.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote... 

This is like what happened with Leviathan, they put a Liara romance patch in the paid DLC. Right. A game patch that should have been downloadable free that fixed a bug in the game now comes with a paid DLC. Did they issue a patch to fix it otherwise? No.

In most DLC its common to do patch work like what happens with Bethesda games.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote... 

Zaeed was free.

Zaeed isn't free because you still need the VIP pass.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 08 septembre 2012 - 09:44 .


#404
Chaotic-Fusion

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Blueprotoss wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

So, as a consumer, you have no problem with paying 10$ for D1-DLC when you could get it included in the price of the game?

Ok.

From Ashes wasn't part of ME3 unless if you bought the CE for ME3.  Zaeed and Javik are two different things.


Yes, yes it was. Everything but the 20 minute mission was on the disk. From Ashes was 500mb, as was Zaeed. They were both developed, according to Bioware, in the period between the game going gold and release. Why does one cost 10$ and the other is included in the price of the game?

Zaeed rewarded everyone who bought it new by making those who bought it used pay 10$ if they wanted the DLC. From Ashes does not.

I don't know about you, but I prefer not having to pay 10$ when 2 years ago it wasn't necessary.

#405
Blueprotoss

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Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Yes, yes it was. Everything but the 20 minute mission was on the disk. From Ashes was 500mb, as was Zaeed. They were both developed, according to Bioware, in the period between the game going gold and release. Why does one cost 10$ and the other is included in the price of the game?

Only Javik was on disc just like what previously happened with Zaeed and Kasumi.  Its odd that you're complaining about $10 for Javik while $10 is fine for Zaeed and Kasumi for the same scenario. 

Chaotic-Fusion wrote... 

Zaeed rewarded everyone who bought it new by making those who bought it used pay 10$ if they wanted the DLC. From Ashes does not.

Zaeed isn't really "free" because you still need to purchase ME2 new or buy the pass.

Chaotic-Fusion wrote... 

I don't know about you, but I prefer not having to pay 10$ when 2 years ago it wasn't necessary.

Most DLC isn't free and to expect freebies will do more harm then good.

#406
Chaotic-Fusion

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Blueprotoss wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Yes, yes it was. Everything but the 20 minute mission was on the disk. From Ashes was 500mb, as was Zaeed. They were both developed, according to Bioware, in the period between the game going gold and release. Why does one cost 10$ and the other is included in the price of the game?

Only Javik was on disc just like what previously happened with Zaeed and Kasumi.  Its odd that you're complaining about $10 for Javik while $10 is fine for Zaeed and Kasumi for the same scenario. 

Chaotic-Fusion wrote... 

Zaeed rewarded everyone who bought it new by making those who bought it used pay 10$ if they wanted the DLC. From Ashes does not.

Zaeed isn't really "free" because you still need to purchase ME2 new or buy the pass.

Chaotic-Fusion wrote... 

I don't know about you, but I prefer not having to pay 10$ when 2 years ago it wasn't necessary.

Most DLC isn't free and to expect freebies will do more harm then good.


Sigh... I'm sorry, but you have a serious reading comprehension problem.

I'm posting this and then I give up. Zaeed was included in the price of a new game of ME2, I said that in the previous post. You didn't have to pay 10$ for him. You had to for From Ashes. Because it wasn't included in the price of the main game. And Kasumi isn't Day-one DLC.

#407
Blueprotoss

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Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Zaeed was included in the price of a new game of ME2, I said that in the previous post. You didn't have to pay 10$ for him. You had to for From Ashes. Because it wasn't included in the price of the main game. And Kasumi isn't Day-one DLC.

Zaeed was only "free" with the pass whether its a new or used copy of ME2. It doesn't matter if Kasumi wasn't Day 1 DLC because both Kasumi and Javik were cut characters put onto the disc before their add-ons were released.  Either way the most DLC is optional not required like in ME.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 08 septembre 2012 - 10:20 .


#408
paul165

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Yes for Zaeed you had to buy the game new that's fine. It allows EA to get some money from used sales and I don't have a problem with that.

However between 2 and 3 they changed their minds and decided to charge everyone an extra $10 regardless of whether you purchased a new copy or not - that I have a problem with as it was obvious that Javik was supposed to be in the main game.

Modifié par paul165, 08 septembre 2012 - 10:20 .


#409
Blueprotoss

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paul165 wrote...

Yes for Zaeed you had to buy the game new that's fine. It allows EA to get some money from used sales and I don't have a problem with that.

However between 2 and 3 they changed their minds and decided to charge everyone an extra $10 regardless of whether you purchased a new copy or not - that I have a problem with as it was obvious that Javik was supposed to be in the main game.

If you have a problem with Javik then you must have a problem with Kasumi.

#410
paul165

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Blueprotoss wrote...

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

Zaeed was included in the price of a new game of ME2, I said that in the previous post. You didn't have to pay 10$ for him. You had to for From Ashes. Because it wasn't included in the price of the main game. And Kasumi isn't Day-one DLC.

Zaeed was only "free" with the pass whether its a new or used copy of ME2. It doesn't matter if Kasumi wasn't Day 1 DLC because both Kasumi and Javik were cut characters put onto the disc before their add-ons were released.  Either way the most DLC is optional not required like in ME.


And you got the pass with a new copy of ME2 hence it was free with a new copy. I'm not quite sure where you are trying to go with this.

Kasumi was not released as day one - and yes that matters also Javik is a significant part of the game lore Kasumi much as I like her...isn't. Of course this is disregarding how boring the from ashes mission actually was compared to the sneak aspects of stolen memory or the moral choices of Zaeed's dlc.

#411
Blueprotoss

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paul165 wrote...

And you got the pass with a new copy of ME2 hence it was free with a new copy. I'm not quite sure where you are trying to go with this.

No matter what way you're trying to spin it, Zaeed was only "free" with the pass whether its a new or used copy of ME2. 

paul165 wrote... 

Kasumi was not released as day one - and yes that matters also Javik is a significant part of the game lore Kasumi much as I like her...isn't. Of course this is disregarding how boring the from ashes mission actually was compared to the sneak aspects of stolen memory or the moral choices of Zaeed's dlc.

Never said that Kasumi was released on Day 1 while she was a part of the game before her add-on release just like Javik.  Heck, Kasumi was more important then Javik because she was originally one of the required squadmates do to the Suicide Mission in ME2 before she was cut.  No matter DLC on ME is optional and no one is forcing you to buy the DLC.

#412
xlI ReFLeX lIx

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I think if there is DLC day one I see it as something you wanted to include in the game but lacked time, so if you decide to release it on launch day, I think THAT shout be our free DLC, we just spent $60+ for the game and the very same day I have to spend an extra $10 for content. Bull.

#413
Blueprotoss

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xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

I think if there is DLC day one I see it as something you wanted to include in the game but lacked time, so if you decide to release it on launch day, I think THAT shout be our free DLC, we just spent $60+ for the game and the very same day I have to spend an extra $10 for content. Bull.

If From Ashes was packaged with ME3 then there would have been another delay for ME3 because of the shipping hell that would have occured.

#414
HiddenInWar

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xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

I think if there is DLC day one I see it as something you wanted to include in the game but lacked time, so if you decide to release it on launch day, I think THAT shout be our free DLC, we just spent $60+ for the game and the very same day I have to spend an extra $10 for content. Bull.


You don't have to spend it, it just there when you find out you want to get it whenever you want.

#415
jpraelster93

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Blueprotoss wrote...

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

I think if there is DLC day one I see it as something you wanted to include in the game but lacked time, so if you decide to release it on launch day, I think THAT shout be our free DLC, we just spent $60+ for the game and the very same day I have to spend an extra $10 for content. Bull.

If From Ashes was packaged with ME3 then there would have been another delay for ME3 because of the shipping hell that would have occured.


Um all they would have to do is put a slip of paper with a code in each box not that hard

#416
paul165

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Blueprotoss wrote...

paul165 wrote...

And you got the pass with a new copy of ME2 hence it was free with a new copy. I'm not quite sure where you are trying to go with this.

No matter what way you're trying to spin it, Zaeed was only "free" with the pass whether its a new or used copy of ME2. 

paul165 wrote... 

Kasumi was not released as day one - and yes that matters also Javik is a significant part of the game lore Kasumi much as I like her...isn't. Of course this is disregarding how boring the from ashes mission actually was compared to the sneak aspects of stolen memory or the moral choices of Zaeed's dlc.

Never said that Kasumi was released on Day 1 while she was a part of the game before her add-on release just like Javik.  Heck, Kasumi was more important then Javik because she was originally one of the required squadmates do to the Suicide Mission in ME2 before she was cut.  No matter DLC on ME is optional and no one is forcing you to buy the DLC.


Last go:
  • Every single new copy of ME2 had a pass.
  • Therefore every single new copy of ME2 allowed you to download the Zaeed mission for free.
  • Therefore the Zaeed dlc was free with every new copy of ME2.
QED.

I was talking about game lore ie Javik gives you the background on the Prothean Empire, some detail on the organics vs. synthetics thing, a discussion on the uplifting of the asari and the history of the Prothean - Reaper war.

Kasumi gives you a codex entry for a submachine gun and a couple of nice in jokes.

See the difference in importance to the game universe there?

As for being required for the suicide mission much as I hate to do this - citation needed and even if she was that is a mechanical decision and has nothing to do with being important to the story.

#417
Blueprotoss

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jpraelster93 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

I think if there is DLC day one I see it as something you wanted to include in the game but lacked time, so if you decide to release it on launch day, I think THAT shout be our free DLC, we just spent $60+ for the game and the very same day I have to spend an extra $10 for content. Bull.

If From Ashes was packaged with ME3 then there would have been another delay for ME3 because of the shipping hell that would have occured.


Um all they would have to do is put a slip of paper with a code in each box not that hard

Its not that easy.  January was the start of the production phase for the shipping process and for DLC.  We don't know when From Ashes was "finished" so we can't say its an easy job without the information to make that judgement.

#418
M Hedonist

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It's just that the line between what's part of the initial game's development and what's part of add-on development has become very blurred. Everything that has been developed until the release of the game should be part of the product. Instead, everything that has been developed until the point where the physical copies of the game started production was put into ME3. What does it matter to me when the physical copies of the game go into production if I purchase it via download? At release day, I expect to be able to buy the whole game (and everything that has been developed up to that point) at once without having to pay any extra fees.
Plus, Javik was originally supposed to play a bigger role in the story. They had to get rid of that when they made him part of the optional DLC. That sucks.

#419
HiddenInWar

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Sion1138 wrote...

wirelesstkd wrote...
They have to make a profit, and that's reasonable.


Yeah, well that's understood of course. But where's the limit? They certainly did make a profit off this game and I'd wager it's probably around a 100 big one's. So then, how much is enough?

The whole thing is skewed man, it's become too big. They spend more money on marketing then on making the actual product. I don't know what to say anymore. 

I want to wind the clock back to 2003.



I'm all in favor of bioware making a good amount of paper, but that's not the reason why the DLC (or the game for that matter) should be dismissed to me. Its about quality. If the mission is fun and javik is a good character than your money is well spent. 

#420
Kathleen321

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I don't have a problem with day one DLC as long as it is DLC and not content that should have been included with the $60 game I already bought.

#421
Blueprotoss

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paul165 wrote...

Last go:
[list][*]Every single new copy of ME2 had a pass. [*]Therefore every single new copy of ME2 allowed you to download the Zaeed mission for free.
[*]Therefore the Zaeed dlc was free with every new copy of ME2.

Zaeed still isn't "free" whether you buy a new or old copy of ME2 while I see you'll ignore this again.

paul165 wrote... 

I was talking about game lore ie Javik gives you the background on the Prothean Empire, some detail on the organics vs. synthetics thing, a discussion on the uplifting of the asari and the history of the Prothean - Reaper war.

Javik being a Prothean isn't that important while if Javik was in ME1 or ME2 then it could have been a different story.

paul165 wrote...  

Kasumi gives you a codex entry for a submachine gun and a couple of nice in jokes.

You also get her as a squadmate, a mission, and other content.

paul165 wrote...  

See the difference in importance to the game universe there?

Yet you seem to have missed that Javik and Kasumi had their characters as placeholders on disc then the rest off their DLC content was released ater digitally.

paul165 wrote...  

As for being required for the suicide mission much as I hate to do this - citation needed and even if she was that is a mechanical decision and has nothing to do with being important to the story.

Yet you'll freak when Javik isn't free.

#422
Blueprotoss

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Kathleen321 wrote...

I don't have a problem with day one DLC as long as it is DLC and not content that should have been included with the $60 game I already bought.

From Ashes is just DLC.

#423
HiddenInWar

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Blueprotoss wrote...

Kathleen321 wrote...

I don't have a problem with day one DLC as long as it is DLC and not content that should have been included with the $60 game I already bought.

From Ashes is just DLC.

 

I imagine people who are against it wouldn't have a problem with it if it didn't come out Day 1, but to each their own. 

#424
I am disappoint

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Blueprotoss wrote...

Kathleen321 wrote...

I don't have a problem with day one DLC as long as it is DLC and not content that should have been included with the $60 game I already bought.

From Ashes is just DLC.


Nope. you're wrong.

#425
Guglio08

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My issue with this specific instance of Day 1 DLC is that I pre-ordered the Collector's Edition purely because it said "bonus character and mission," only to discover later that I was paying $20 for something everyone else could buy for $10. What else did the CE really provide? A dog you can barely interact with, a few bonus weapons that you couldn't unlock in MP for some time (and irrespective of whether you owned the CE or not), a hoodie, an art book that itself was a smaller version of one they were selling for $40, a Velcro thing that doesn't really work, a "special" case that held the disc in a vice grip which was known to damage or destroy the discs...

ME3's CE was literally pointless, and it's one saving grace was DLC that was then released on the first day. Not only was it removed from the core game and sold after the fact, but people who bought the CE didn't receive any true benefit for that cost.