514 réponses à ce sujet

[xxskyshadowxx]

Chaotic-Fusion wrote...

From Ashes was removed from the main game. That much is obvious from the leaked script and from the fact that Javik is a damn Prothean.

Something akin to the Warden's keep DLC, a new adventure with new loot that doesn't majorly affect the plot, and is clearly developed in the interim between the game going gold and release, is fine. Because it's optional, Javik clearly wasn't. Making him DLC was a cheap move.

Exactly..

The devs themselves stated in the Final Hours app that they were making so many changes to appeal to a broader audience (I rather believe that EA told them "make ME into CoD with Blue romance"...) that they ran out of time to complete the single player development and had to rip out the character and had to modify the scenes that were originally programmed to include him. That's not good in and of itself.

Then they managed to finish it and get it certified by the time the game was released and they decide to charge folks $10 extra dollars for something that should have been in the game, and originally was...so those who didn't buy it, got an incomplete game and those that did paid $70 for a game that should have cost $60.

Someone posted a quote in these forums from someone from EA commenting on how most people just paid the extra $10 and didn't care, and that in the future it would be easy to get $70 for the standard release games in the future because of it.

Some folks got mad over that quote, but if the majority of the customers are voting with their dollars (regardless of what they post about it in the forums) that releasing incomplete games and charging extra up front to get the complete package is okay, then technically EA/BioWare did nothing wrong. it's basically just capitalism at work, and that's not a bad thing technically.

But for me personally.....getting people hooked on a "trilogy" with a well-made first game, stringing them along with an "okay" character driven bridge sequel into the conclusion...then over-hyping and misrepresenting said conclusion before releasing it incomplete, and counting on dedicated fans to pay extra up front to get the complete game (which turns out to abandon nearly everything that made the story great to begin with...but I digress...) is extremely amoral to me. Shame on them. Until they modify their business practices, I will not be purchasing their games new. I will still play their games, but will rent them or buy them used, despite the fact that I normally hate buying used games.

Modifié par xxskyshadowxx, 31 août 2012 - 01:35 .

[Omega2079]

AxStapleton wrote...

if you buy a game, do you buy the rights to play it or is it completely and utterly yours?

Current legal system consider the software on the disk to licenced, and that you do not own it.

AxStapleton wrote...
...there comes a point where companies such as Capcom, Activision and EA just abuse it.

Abuse? How?

They offer a product and show their terms and conditions to the sale. You voluntarily purchase a licence for the software. Nobody makes you buy one.

AxStapleton wrote...
It was obvious that Javik's lines were recorded alongside all the other squadmates because he has conversations with other squadmates throughout the game and, as stated by others, a lot of the DLC was in fact already on the disc.

So?  How does time of production make any difference? You licence one, but not the other.

There were parts of coding in preparation for the Leviathan dlc within the Extended Cut. Does that mean that if you downloaded it, you get the Lev. dlc for free?

Modifié par Omega2079, 31 août 2012 - 05:33 .

[Pitznik]

From Ashes is optional, it isn't in any way integral to the story. DLCs will always be about something important/interesting, noone will buy them otherwise. If you don't like this business practice, teach them a lesson, with your wallet, not with your virtual tears.

From Ashes obviously was at least partially cut out from the game, but it doesn't change anything, it is up to Bioware to decide what counts as the game, and what counts as DLC. It is up to you to decide if you will buy or not.

[NS Wizdum]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

We didn't have day-1 DLC a few years ago? Why has it suddenly become so damn important for developers?

Because it allows them to keep paying (while making money on) excess staff, that they would normally just lay off to lower costs?


I don't see From Ashes as essential at all. It gives you a walking, talking codex, thats it. It also helped make the collectors edition worth it.

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 31 août 2012 - 05:58 .

[Iakus]

 Whether or not something "should have been in the main game" Day 1 DLC simply looks greedy.  Intentional or not, it looks like something that's been cut from the game, and people don't like that (obviously).

I'm sure most people wouldn't mind Day 1 DLC that's free with new purchases.  You're not really paying more for it and can be seen as a way to combat used purchases.  But having to purchase more content for a game right out of the box seems...tacky.  

[NS Wizdum]

iakus wrote...

 Whether or not something "should have been in the main game" Day 1 DLC simply looks greedy.  Intentional or not, it looks like something that's been cut from the game, and people don't like that (obviously).

I'm sure most people wouldn't mind Day 1 DLC that's free with new purchases.  You're not really paying more for it and can be seen as a way to combat used purchases.  But having to purchase more content for a game right out of the box seems...tacky.  

Unfortunately, developers can't pay their bills or employees with happiness and gratitude.

[dancarrero]

Bfler wrote...

Imagine you buy an expensive car and when you want to collect it you realize that there are no seats in it. You can drive without seats but you know that something is missing.
Then the salesman talks to you and offers you the seats for an additional amount of money.

What would you think?

Imagine Nothing.My daughter bought a brand knew Hyundai Elantra and they tried to charge her $200 for a spare tire!!She went to the junkyard and bought it for $70.I guess Hyundai has learned from Bioware first day DLC!Bioware blazing the path for business!

[Jamie9]

It depends. What am I paying £40 ($60) for? I bought the N7 Edition but otherwise I wouldn't have bought From Ashes.

When I pay for a videogame on release, I'm paying for the time the devs spent up until release. ANYTHING made before release, everybody should get. Yes, this includes the incredibly obnoxious pre-order bonuses.

[Pitznik]

Jamie9 wrote...

It depends. What am I paying £40 ($60) for? I bought the N7 Edition but otherwise I wouldn't have bought From Ashes.

When I pay for a videogame on release, I'm paying for the time the devs spent up until release. ANYTHING made before release, everybody should get. Yes, this includes the incredibly obnoxious pre-order bonuses.

Heh, no. You don't get any guarantee or right to get everything made before the release. You get the right to get product called ME3.

[Iakus]

NS Wizdum wrote...

iakus wrote...

 Whether or not something "should have been in the main game" Day 1 DLC simply looks greedy.  Intentional or not, it looks like something that's been cut from the game, and people don't like that (obviously).

I'm sure most people wouldn't mind Day 1 DLC that's free with new purchases.  You're not really paying more for it and can be seen as a way to combat used purchases.  But having to purchase more content for a game right out of the box seems...tacky.  

Unfortunately, developers can't pay their bills or employees with happiness and gratitude.

I'm talking about perceptions here.

[Justin2k]

The people defending day one content are not really doing any service to themselves. You're basically telling developers "hey, don't put all your ideas in the retail game, I'm very happy to pay extra for them".

DLC was intended to be a way for console developers to be able to add to and patch their games in the way PC devs could. It's been turned into a sales tool. This was not the intention. Day 1 DLC sets that precedent even further.

One game could cost upwards of $100 to get full content. The additions to PC used to be paid for expansion packs, or free content packs.

[eddieoctane]

dancarrero wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Imagine you buy an expensive car and when you want to collect it you realize that there are no seats in it. You can drive without seats but you know that something is missing.
Then the salesman talks to you and offers you the seats for an additional amount of money.

What would you think?

Imagine Nothing.My daughter bought a brand knew Hyundai Elantra and they tried to charge her $200 for a spare tire!!She went to the junkyard and bought it for $70.I guess Hyundai has learned from Bioware first day DLC!Bioware blazing the path for business!

Was that for a full-size spare or just the donut? Full-size spares have been an extra for a long time. But if they are charging $200 for a dount, you can buy a new rim and full size tire and get it mounted and balanced for that price. Can't say that would surprise me, though, as the new focus is on screwing the consumer as much as possible for a few extra bucks rather than convincing them to come back and buy again.

[Hudathan]

 

NS Wizdum wrote...

Hudathan, the problem with that is the publishers. Making a video game is an investment and a huge risk. Publishers dump money into development and marketing, in the hopes that they will make more money than they put in at some point in the future. Sure, the fans (the real ones anyway) wouldn't mind waiting an additional 3 months, but that extra time costs the publisher millions in salaries, marketing, and development. Do you think they would have made enough additional sales by including From Ashes, to make back the millions of dollars they spent on 3 more months of development? Theres no way.

I'm absolutely aware that it's 100% on the publishers. However, like I said in my earlier post, ME3 was not some random game that EA took a chance on. It was the climax of a very well received series and could only benefit more from good word of mouth. You really think they weren't going to make up for whatever development costs they had if everybody out there can't stop talking about how much you get for this game compared with everything else on the market?

We're not talking about the team coming up with some additional content down the line and needing a way to distribute it to the consumers. That kind of stuff isn't new in gaming, we've had expansions for a long time now. We're talking about day 1 DLC's where the content is fully integrated with the game proper and left out simply to make some more money off the top.

ZombieGambit wrote...

You're assuming developers and publishers are charites and not actual for-profit businesses.

No, I'm not, because I'm not asking them to give us the game for free. I'm asking them to give us their best efforts for my money in exchange for customer loyalty which absolutely has financial benefits for them. Movie theaters don't charge more for a ticket to an indie film with no budget than they would the latest summer blockbuster, and studios don't leave out pieces of their movies that you can pay extra to see later.

By your logic oil companies should just get together and charge us $100 a gallon because they're in the business of making money and that makes it impervious to criticism.

Modifié par Hudathan, 31 août 2012 - 06:29 .

[BatmanPWNS]

I don't see how you can justify by saying their trying to make a profit. Developers were trying to make a profit int the 90's too but they didn't cut content for it. They worked their ass off to make sure it was good enough. If developers could make enough money back then without the need of DLC, then they can do the same right now.

[Pitznik]

Justin2k wrote...

The people defending day one content are not really doing any service to themselves. You're basically telling developers "hey, don't put all your ideas in the retail game, I'm very happy to pay extra for them".

DLC was intended to be a way for console developers to be able to add to and patch their games in the way PC devs could. It's been turned into a sales tool. This was not the intention. Day 1 DLC sets that precedent even further.

One game could cost upwards of $100 to get full content. The additions to PC used to be paid for expansion packs, or free content packs.

Not really, I don't like it any more than you do, but people claiming they have some "right" to that content are just funny. It is business practice, nothing else, and it will be dropped if it fails. So don't buy day one DLC and you have made much more than this thread ever will.

[Omega2079]

Justin2k wrote...

The people defending day one content are not really doing any service to themselves. You're basically telling developers "hey, don't put all your ideas in the retail game, I'm very happy to pay extra for them".

No. It's telling them that content that's desirable sells well and that content that isn't does not.

Justin2k wrote...
DLC was intended to be a way for console developers to be able to add to and patch their games in the way PC devs could. It's been turned into a sales tool. This was not the intention. Day 1 DLC sets that precedent even further.

It's a product for sale, not a religion or moral code.

Justin2k wrote...
One game could cost upwards of $100 to get full content. The additions to PC used to be paid for expansion packs, or free content packs.

You can pay a lot more than $100 for a complete content in a game. And yet, nobody's forcing anyone to buy it.

I don't need or want to pay $2063.94 for dlc. I have no problem going without it.


============

BatmanPWNS wrote...

I don't see how you can justify by
saying their trying to make a profit. Developers were trying to make a profit int the 90's too but they didn't cut content for it. They worked their ass off to make sure it was good enough. If developers could make enough money back then without the need of DLC, then they can do the same right now.

So they shouldn't try to offer new things?
To try to find new ways to satisfy their customers?
And they shouldn't try to make a profit?

Does that mean more people voluntarily trading their money that they earned for products they desire is a bad thing?

Modifié par Omega2079, 31 août 2012 - 07:06 .

[dancarrero]

eddieoctane wrote...

dancarrero wrote...

Bfler wrote...

Imagine you buy an expensive car and when you want to collect it you realize that there are no seats in it. You can drive without seats but you know that something is missing.
Then the salesman talks to you and offers you the seats for an additional amount of money.

What would you think?

Imagine Nothing.My daughter bought a brand knew Hyundai Elantra and they tried to charge her $200 for a spare tire!!She went to the junkyard and bought it for $70.I guess Hyundai has learned from Bioware first day DLC!Bioware blazing the path for business!

Was that for a full-size spare or just the donut? Full-size spares have been an extra for a long time. But if they are charging $200 for a dount, you can buy a new rim and full size tire and get it mounted and balanced for that price. Can't say that would surprise me, though, as the new focus is on screwing the consumer as much as possible for a few extra bucks rather than convincing them to come back and buy again.

All they gave her was a fixaflat and a tire iron.I would have expected the itsybitsy donut that has been standard for 2 decades.Just enough to get you to the service station.
Reminds me of day 1 DLC:)

Modifié par dancarrero, 31 août 2012 - 07:04 .

[NS Wizdum]

Its like people aren't even reading my replies...

Mass Effect 3 was feature complete 3 months prior to the release. A small team of developers continues working on bug fixes and responding to playtests. The developers that were no longer needed then started working on From Ashes (prior to the availibility of DLC, these developers would simply be layed off). From Ashes was complete a month prior to release. DLC doesn't take as long to playtest as the full game (and you don't have to coordinate shipping and pressing DVDs), so From Ashes was released at the same time as Mass Effect 3.

From Ashes was never going to make it into the game that shipped. There was not enough time, the game was already delayed once. The alternative to day 1 DLC would have been to fire the extra developers and then release From Ashes in August.


Also, those comparing older games to the current generation need to wake up. Bugets for games are approaching and surpassing bugets for movies. Game developers are hiring voice actors, orchestras, and artists to complete games. All of this takes much more time, and costs much more money, than those old games. This is also why you see developers try to broaden the scope of their games. They need more bodies to break even.

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 31 août 2012 - 07:10 .

[GiarcYekrub]

NS Wizdum wrote...

Its like people aren't even reading my replies...

Mass Effect 3 was feature complete 3 months prior to the release. A small team of developers continues working on bug fixes and responding to playtests. The developers that were no longer needed then started working on From Ashes (prior to the availibility of DLC, these developers would simply be layed off). From Ashes was complete a month prior to release. DLC doesn't take as long to playtest as the full game (and you don't have to coordinate shipping and pressing DVDs), so From Ashes was released at the same time as Mass Effect 3.

From Ashes was never going to make it into the game that shipped. There was not enough time, the game was already delayed once. The alternative to day 1 DLC would have been to fire the extra developers and then release From Ashes in August.


Also, those comparing older games to the current generation need to wake up. Bugets for games are approaching and surpassing bugets for movies. Game developers are hiring voice actors, orchestras, and artists to complete games. All of this takes much more time, and costs much more money, than those old games. This is also why you see developers try to broaden the scope of their games. They need more bodies to break even.

Well said, some people need to grow up and face reality once in a while.

People crying about "On Disc Premium content" need to ask themselves would I rather pay for bandwidth and wait for it to download entirely?
People crying about "Day 1 Premium content" need to ask themselves would they rather wait a month artificially after release or have Javik to join your squad "Day 1"?
People crying about "Important plot Premium content" need to ask themselves would they really want to buy content that is just some sort of side quest that has minimal relevence to the main story line, I'm thinking of all the people complaining about Star Trek:Insurrection which ignored the DS9 Dominion war plot to go have fun in the briar patch

[Helios969]

OP I'm with you...didn't bother me in the least. If microtransactions are what is needed to keep the lights on and keep the saga rolling, then I guess that's what is needed. Free market economy doesn't mean free. Nobody runs a company with the intent to break even...or "make just enough."

[wirelesstkd]

People here are so entitled, it drives me crazy. I have no problem with day one DLC. I also have no problem with the idea that it was developed at the same time and even included on the disc. It's not about how it was developed, but rather how it was budgeted for. If the DLC (which was optional and in NO WAY needed to enjoy the game) was outside the game budget, OF COURSE we should have to pay more if we want it. How does that not make sense?

The other thing to keep in mind is that game prices have remained too steady over the years. Mass Effect 3 cost the same as some new games for SuperNES. The difference between 16 bit letters delivering dialogue and Martin Sheen has to cost something, yet somehow game studios have figured out a way to keep prices low. And fans reward them by whining non-stop that all they want to do is make money. OF COURSE that's all they want to do - they are a BUSINESS. That's their objective. If you like the product, buy it. If not, don't The market will sort this out.

Sorry for ranting, but the DLC thing drives me nuts.

[robertthebard]

Sion1138 wrote...

It bothers me because:

1. The Prothean race was all over the place during ME1 and even 2, by which I mean it was an important part of the story. The last living Prothean should not be DLC (even though they completely marginalized and dumbed down the Protheans later.)

- This is a cheap shot. They've taken advantage of their fans, knowing they wouldn't pass up the chance to meet a living Prothean.

2. It was finished alongside the game. How does additional content come out the same day as the game? I've never seen anyone do that before. Again, cheap shot.

I have the exact opposite view, I guess.  It was bonus material for buying the Collector's Edition, Digital Deluxe Edition, and yet they sold it on day 1 for less than I would have paid with a preorder of either.  If you want CE/DDE content, you should have to buy that version of the game, instead of getting it for less overall than I would have paid and then complaining about it.

[King of the Evil Crabs]

I'd like to think that the Bioware of a few years ago would have handled it better, if they finished the game comfortably in the time frame to add this content why did the game feel unfinished in certain areas.

With day one DLC Mass Effect 3 is more expensive then it's predecessor & many would regard it as inferior.

So I'm Paying more for less. Companies are not charity, they need to make money which is reasonable. But I'm not going to be milked. I bought From Ashes & won't be buying more day one DLC until I'm sure the purchased product has not been skimped on.