514 réponses à ce sujet

[Hudathan]

wirelesstkd wrote...

People here are so entitled, it drives me crazy. I have no problem with day one DLC. I also have no problem with the idea that it was developed at the same time and even included on the disc. It's not about how it was developed, but rather how it was budgeted for. If the DLC (which was optional and in NO WAY needed to enjoy the game) was outside the game budget, OF COURSE we should have to pay more if we want it. How does that not make sense?

So if a film studio decided that a particular movie was costing too much, they should chop off a piece of the story and sell it to us separately at a later date? I have lots of problems with Hollywood, but one thing I respect about the movie business is the fact that they're willing to charge us the same amount of money for a ticket regardless of how much budget they spent.

Do you really believe that day 1 DLC's are content that would otherwise not exist due to budget and time or is that just what the publisher told you? 

[vixvicco]

Because it was about a Prothean. Anything else, and it would have been fine.
Secondly, there was not enough content to justify it being a DLC.
Thirdly, DLC should be because it was an afterthought, not right off the bat, okay time to charge a bit more.

[robertthebard]

Sion1138 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

It bothers me because:

1. The Prothean race was all over the place during ME1 and even 2, by which I mean it was an important part of the story. The last living Prothean should not be DLC (even though they completely marginalized and dumbed down the Protheans later.)

- This is a cheap shot. They've taken advantage of their fans, knowing they wouldn't pass up the chance to meet a living Prothean.

2. It was finished alongside the game. How does additional content come out the same day as the game? I've never seen anyone do that before. Again, cheap shot.

I have the exact opposite view, I guess.  It was bonus material for buying the Collector's Edition, Digital Deluxe Edition, and yet they sold it on day 1 for less than I would have paid with a preorder of either.  If you want CE/DDE content, you should have to buy that version of the game, instead of getting it for less overall than I would have paid and then complaining about it.

If it was a weapon pack or something, or even any other character, if Vega had been DLC, it wouldn't have bothered me. But a Prothean... Not fair.

In all honesty, he really doesn't add that much.  For the first 3 or 4 games I played, I treated him exactly like Kasumi or Zaeed.  Cannon fodder with skills.  I didn't talk to him after the initial dialog on the Normandy because with Kasumi and Zaeed, there was no point, and I didn't miss anything important in the game.  It's a novelty, and after some youtube links I found out there are some funny lines that I'd been missing, but it didn't affect gameplay one way or another, other than Garrus got a new rifle to use, which is essentially a weapon pack.  I didn't know there was more, and that's the way I viewed it for a while.  Even now, I tend to not take him to most places unless I know I can spark a reaction.  It's like not recruiting Tali until after you get Legion, it's funny, once, but not something I'd do every time.

[inversevideo]

robertthebard wrote...

I have the exact opposite view, I guess.  It was bonus material for buying the Collector's Edition, Digital Deluxe Edition, and yet they sold it on day 1 for less than I would have paid with a preorder of either.  If you want CE/DDE content, you should have to buy that version of the game, instead of getting it for less overall than I would have paid and then complaining about it.

This bothered me as well.  

[Hudathan]

robertthebard wrote...

In all honesty, he really doesn't add that much.  For the first 3 or 4 games I played, I treated him exactly like Kasumi or Zaeed.  Cannon fodder with skills.  I didn't talk to him after the initial dialog on the Normandy because with Kasumi and Zaeed, there was no point, and I didn't miss anything important in the game.  It's a novelty, and after some youtube links I found out there are some funny lines that I'd been missing, but it didn't affect gameplay one way or another, other than Garrus got a new rifle to use, which is essentially a weapon pack.  I didn't know there was more, and that's the way I viewed it for a while.  Even now, I tend to not take him to most places unless I know I can spark a reaction.  It's like not recruiting Tali until after you get Legion, it's funny, once, but not something I'd do every time.

Bioware felt that it was a story worth telling and selling, that's the important thing. And any content that's PART of the main storyline should also be part of the production schedule. This was the final installment for an epic trilogy, it needs to be as complete as possible. If the story calls for more time and money then that's what it deserves.

It's not like EA gave us the complete ME3 and then decided to charge us extra months down the line because Bioware made some follow-up expansion that takes place after the game. This is a case of chapters being taken out of the main storyline and kept separate in order to charge extra for the complete picture. Ask yourself if you would condone the same thing from the author of a book or the distributor of a movie?

Modifié par Hudathan, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:40 .

[Hudathan]

Sion1138 wrote...

That's how I see it. And let it be known before anyone calls me a whiner or entitled or whatever, that I'm not demanding anything. I'm just stating in retrospect, what I think of the whole thing.

Expecting to be given the complete product is not entitled. In fact let me reword that, we are absolutely entitled to a complete product if we are to pay the full price on day 1.

[wirelesstkd]

Hudathan wrote...

wirelesstkd wrote...

People here are so entitled, it drives me crazy. I have no problem with day one DLC. I also have no problem with the idea that it was developed at the same time and even included on the disc. It's not about how it was developed, but rather how it was budgeted for. If the DLC (which was optional and in NO WAY needed to enjoy the game) was outside the game budget, OF COURSE we should have to pay more if we want it. How does that not make sense?

So if a film studio decided that a particular movie was costing too much, they should chop off a piece of the story and sell it to us separately at a later date? I have lots of problems with Hollywood, but one thing I respect about the movie business is the fact that they're willing to charge us the same amount of money for a ticket regardless of how much budget they spent.

Do you really believe that day 1 DLC's are content that would otherwise not exist due to budget and time or is that just what the publisher told you? 

First, the analogy is a little flawed because movie studios don't have the delivery mechanism to deliver DLC. But yes, they do in fact cut out content that would be too expensive to create, even though it was initially scripted to be in movie. One example that jumps to mind is the Terminator movie. The original movie was about two terminators, one older model programmed to go back in time and save Sarah Connor, and a newer model that was able to shape shift set on killing her. It was deemed to expensive, so it was scaled back to the older model and a human. Of course what got cut became the sequel.

Another example (you can see I'm a huge James Cameron fan with my two examples) is the movie the Abyss. Cameron decided midway through that he couldn't afford to finish the big scene at the end with the tsunami about to hit, but then being stopped by aliens. So he ruthlessly cut out the entire coldwar subplot. Years later he went back and finished it when computer technology got better and cheaper. He released the movie as an extended director's cut on VHS (and later DVD, etc.).

So, yes, this kind of thing happens a lot. And yes, I do believe that day one DLC would not exist if we didn't have the delivery mechanism. In the case of mass effect 3, I think that the whole Prothean angle would have been cut out of the game all together. The other option might have been that they would have cut something else out. But something would have been cut. You can look at how they slashed parts out of the Ardhat Yakshi storyline. Somewhere a dev said this was supposed to be a lot bigger. I think Morinth was supposed to be there, as well. But budgets are budgets. They have to make a profit, and that's reasonable.

Modifié par wirelesstkd, 04 septembre 2012 - 02:51 .

[wirelesstkd]

Hudathan wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

That's how I see it. And let it be known before anyone calls me a whiner or entitled or whatever, that I'm not demanding anything. I'm just stating in retrospect, what I think of the whole thing.

Expecting to be given the complete product is not entitled. In fact let me reword that, we are absolutely entitled to a complete product if we are to pay the full price on day 1.

You got a full product. You don't need the DLC to understand or enjoy the game.

[eddieoctane]

wirelesstkd wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

Sion1138 wrote...

That's how I see it. And let it be known before anyone calls me a whiner or entitled or whatever, that I'm not demanding anything. I'm just stating in retrospect, what I think of the whole thing.

Expecting to be given the complete product is not entitled. In fact let me reword that, we are absolutely entitled to a complete product if we are to pay the full price on day 1.

You got a full product. You don't need the DLC to understand or enjoy the game.

The EC is an admission on the part of BioWare that the game was not complete.

[Hudathan]

wirelesstkd wrote...

You got a full product. You don't need the DLC to understand or enjoy the game.

I don't see how it's a full product if a living, breathing member of the Normandy crew that has interactions with all the main characters over the course of the entire game is none the less left out of the default version of the game. Yeah, maybe the game is still very good without it, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. I don't need to see Kyle Reese's vision of the future in Terminator 1 to enjoy the rest of that movie, but that doesn't mean they should make the sequence and then charge me extra for it.

From Ashes is a piece of the main story of Mass Effect 3 that was ready to go at launch but we're expected to pay extra for it in order to see the complete picture. It's not a story that takes place after ME3, it's not a story that takes place before ME3, it's PART of ME3. Just because they sell it as something extra doesn't mean I'm fooled into thinking it's something extra.

Sion1138 wrote...
I share your sentiment, but there just aren't any rules to refer to on the question of what constitutes 'complete'. They can do whatever they want, they could have cut half the content and you still wouldn't have had legal grounds to grievance (Not that I advocate going to court for a game, just trying to make a point).[/i][i]

Of course not, and everything I say is definitely my personal opinion as a consumer. There is nothing I can really do about any of this other than voicing my concerns when I think a particular industry is being unfair. I'm still a huge fan of Bioware and their games, including From Ashes which I think is a great DLC...except it's not really a DLC in this case now is it.

Modifié par Hudathan, 04 septembre 2012 - 03:06 .

[tomcplotts]

NS Wizdum wrote...

tomcplotts wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

 It honestly doesn't bother me, I just want to know why other people feel this way. 

From Ashes was a nice add-on so I guess it depends on on the individual. 

probably because it's a form of corporate theft and deceit. ashes wasn't an add on. it was plot essential and part of the original game. so they took it out and resold it to you. i'm from a generation and time that used to believe that constituted fraud.

they want to charge more for the game? then charge more. let the market decide. stop trying to lie and cheat your way from a 60 buck game to a 70 buck game.

Incidentally, this is also why I hate DLC (as opposed to expansion packs, which are not the same thing). Few things are worse than having your story split up over a long period of time and sold to you in installments. Make the bloody game, front to back, and sell it for what you think is a fair profit. that way you keep the iontegrity of the experience intact.

this is  one drawback to high speed internet. it encourages installments on game purchasing.

Learn how game developers work. Also, you might want to tone down your "THE END IS NIGH!" speech.

And you might want to bite me. I just described how game developers work. And I'm pretty sure I've been doing this a lot longer than you have. When you have an actual argument next time, use it.

[Bleachrude]

ZombieGambit wrote...

Nothing is wrong with Day-1 DLC, everyone who complains about it is completely clueless about the development process.

Let's say a developer making a AAA title is given 1 year and 10 months to complete it, but the game won't be released for 2 years. After the allotted time has passed and if the game is indeed complete it all comes down to bug testing, marketing etc. The majority of the programmers are no longer needed and so they're sent home to wait for the next project.

Now, if a developer decides it wants to include DLC on the first day it instead tasks these programmers to start developing it and then it can be tested after the main game has gone "golden" and released alongside it.

Instead of waiting a month or more to release this finished content developers usually decide to release it as soon as possible to make the most out of the hype surrounding the game and it's a show to fans that they plan to continue to support they game through DLC.

Now, take From Ashes. It went through the same process, but BioWare had enough time to manage to put some placeholders for Javik on the disc to save download space. The download contained everything except Javik, it included the mission, dialogue, new squadmate outfits, and weapon.

Yep, nothing wrong with Day-1 DLC.

ZombieGambit understands how the industry works...

The biggest thing people need to realize that the final build of a game has to be sent to the console manufactures 2-3 months BEFORE it actually is released.  There's also the fact that usually there's a 2-4 week internal final build test as well by the game company.

(It's one of the reasons why I DO agree that there was too short a development time for ME3.)

[King of the Evil Crabs]

Sion1138 wrote...

wirelesstkd wrote...
They have to make a profit, and that's reasonable.

Yeah, well that's understood of course. But where's the limit? They certainly did make a profit off this game and I'd wager it's probably around a 100 big one's. So then, how much is enough?

The whole thing is skewed man, it's become too big. They spend more money on marketing then on making the actual product. I don't know what to say anymore. 

I want to wind the clock back to 2003.

+1 this

[eddieoctane]

Sion1138 wrote...

Developers should be independent, but I know that's a tall order since they can barely finance themselves sometimes. Perhaps the solution lies in partnerships, multiple studios joining forces while still retaining their independence. This is actually what Bioware and Pandemic did at one point, and then the great white ate them while they weren't looking.

Sort of like Image Comics. It might take some real effort on the part of developers, but the result would be awesome for gaming as a whole. And I might actually tolerate someone claiming their game is art when the publishers bottom line isn't the primary reason for sales.

[clarkusdarkus]

Because back in the day £40 used to get me a full game, if content is available the day of release then it should be on disk anyway. If zaeed was free then why wasn't javik? is it because his important? if that's the case then my earlier point about being on disk is valid. I never bought javik as i dont agree with day1 dlc and never will be duped like that.

[wirelesstkd]

Hudathan wrote...

wirelesstkd wrote...

You got a full product. You don't need the DLC to understand or enjoy the game.

I don't see how it's a full product if a living, breathing member of the Normandy crew that has interactions with all the main characters over the course of the entire game is none the less left out of the default version of the game. Yeah, maybe the game is still very good without it, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. I don't need to see Kyle Reese's vision of the future in Terminator 1 to enjoy the rest of that movie, but that doesn't mean they should make the sequence and then charge me extra for it.

From Ashes is a piece of the main story of Mass Effect 3 that was ready to go at launch but we're expected to pay extra for it in order to see the complete picture. It's not a story that takes place after ME3, it's not a story that takes place before ME3, it's PART of ME3. Just because they sell it as something extra doesn't mean I'm fooled into thinking it's something extra.

Those interactions are part of what you're paying for in the DLC.

The part about Kyle Reese's dream makes a good point, though. Sure - that didn't get cut out, but things that add value to a movie are very frequently cut out of the film and later included in a higher priced, Director's Cut DVD. Take for example the elaborate sequence in T2 where the Terminator explains that he can't learn because his chip has that function turned off. A whole section where they cut in to his head happens and you get interaction between Sarah and John where she tries to destroy the chip and John stops her. Cameron talked about how he loved the scene because it shows John starting to take charge and make decisions.

The scene was fully filmed, but added running time to the movie. Theaters hate that, because it means they can't play the movie as many times a day, which means they make less money than if the movie was shorter. As a result, the line of the terminator explaining how can't learn was changed to him saying he can learn and the whole scene was cut. BUT - there it is in the high priced collecter's DVD that I own. I love it and I think it adds value, but I don't feel like the movie was incomplete without it.

[wirelesstkd]

eddieoctane wrote...

wirelesstkd wrote...

You got a full product. You don't need the DLC to understand or enjoy the game.

The EC is an admission on the part of BioWare that the game was not complete.

Two things: one, the EC was free. Two, it's not an admission that the game was incomplete, just that they did a poor job explaining what they meant. If this had been a movie, we'd be hosed, leaving the theater asking ourselves, "what the hell was that?" (see: Apes, The Planet Of (2001))

[Bleachrude]

If anything, I think Leviathan is more plot-essential to ME3 than Javik...but this I think is just a refinement of bioware making DLC styory related "better"

Compare say ME1's "Bring down the sky" to ME2 "Lair of the shadow broker"

or

Compare DAO's "Return to Ostagar" with DA2 "Legacy"

Personally, I consider Javik closer to Sebastian in terms of importance to the storyline...

[Hudathan]

wirelesstkd wrote...

Those interactions are part of what you're paying for in the DLC.

The part about Kyle Reese's dream makes a good point, though. Sure - that didn't get cut out, but things that add value to a movie are very frequently cut out of the film and later included in a higher priced, Director's Cut DVD. Take for example the elaborate sequence in T2 where the Terminator explains that he can't learn because his chip has that function turned off. A whole section where they cut in to his head happens and you get interaction between Sarah and John where she tries to destroy the chip and John stops her. Cameron talked about how he loved the scene because it shows John starting to take charge and make decisions.

The scene was fully filmed, but added running time to the movie. Theaters hate that, because it means they can't play the movie as many times a day, which means they make less money than if the movie was shorter. As a result, the line of the terminator explaining how can't learn was changed to him saying he can learn and the whole scene was cut. BUT - there it is in the high priced collecter's DVD that I own. I love it and I think it adds value, but I don't feel like the movie was incomplete without it.

Hollywood forcing people to double-dip when it comes to home video in order to avoid feeling like they're missing out is something else I have a problem with.

[iloveexplosives]

wirelesstkd wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

wirelesstkd wrote...

You got a full product. You don't need the DLC to understand or enjoy the game.

I don't see how it's a full product if a living, breathing member of the Normandy crew that has interactions with all the main characters over the course of the entire game is none the less left out of the default version of the game. Yeah, maybe the game is still very good without it, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be included. I don't need to see Kyle Reese's vision of the future in Terminator 1 to enjoy the rest of that movie, but that doesn't mean they should make the sequence and then charge me extra for it.

From Ashes is a piece of the main story of Mass Effect 3 that was ready to go at launch but we're expected to pay extra for it in order to see the complete picture. It's not a story that takes place after ME3, it's not a story that takes place before ME3, it's PART of ME3. Just because they sell it as something extra doesn't mean I'm fooled into thinking it's something extra.

Those interactions are part of what you're paying for in the DLC.

The part about Kyle Reese's dream makes a good point, though. Sure - that didn't get cut out, but things that add value to a movie are very frequently cut out of the film and later included in a higher priced, Director's Cut DVD. Take for example the elaborate sequence in T2 where the Terminator explains that he can't learn because his chip has that function turned off. A whole section where they cut in to his head happens and you get interaction between Sarah and John where she tries to destroy the chip and John stops her. Cameron talked about how he loved the scene because it shows John starting to take charge and make decisions.

The scene was fully filmed, but added running time to the movie. Theaters hate that, because it means they can't play the movie as many times a day, which means they make less money than if the movie was shorter. As a result, the line of the terminator explaining how can't learn was changed to him saying he can learn and the whole scene was cut. BUT - there it is in the high priced collecter's DVD that I own. I love it and I think it adds value, but I don't feel like the movie was incomplete without it.

this is prob the most well thaughtout reasoning i have ever seen here and i agree completely.
all dlc is is extras non of it is needed. its like buying a matock rifle and then buying a upgrade, u dont need the upgrade but its nice and it can help