514 réponses à ce sujet

[Isichar]

Omega2079 wrote...

Isichar wrote...



But what about when it actually is part of the content you purchased and its locked until you pay? If I go into a store and buy a ME3 disk should I not be entitled to the content on that disk? Even if I say I want to support the developers more it feels like content is purposely been locked out in the interest of making more money which feels really scabby towards the consumer.

You're not buying the game, you're buying a licence to it. There never is a transfer of property.

The EULA has terms and conditions. Have a read, it contains a lot of details.

Except of course when I walked into the store, handed the clerk 60+ bucks and got the game handed to me.

I guess I have just been conditioned by a couple decades of actually owning the games I buy.  Dont seem to recall expansion packs getting disabled the moment my internet or the servers went down for a second... 

Modifié par Isichar, 05 septembre 2012 - 09:04 .

[Omega2079]

Isichar wrote...

Omega2079 wrote...

Isichar wrote...



But what about when it actually is part of the content you purchased and its locked until you pay? If I go into a store and buy a ME3 disk should I not be entitled to the content on that disk? Even if I say I want to support the developers more it feels like content is purposely been locked out in the interest of making more money which feels really scabby towards the consumer.

You're not buying the game, you're buying a licence to it. There never is a transfer of property.

The EULA has terms and conditions. Have a read, it contains a lot of details.

Except of course when I walked into the store, handed the clerk 60+ bucks and got the game handed to me.

I guess I have just been conditioned by a couple decades of actually owning
the games I buy.  Dont seem to recall expansion packs getting disabled
the moment my internet or the servers went down for a second... 

Within the confines of the legal system, no, you're still not transfering property.

Games have been licenced for a long time now.

DRM is another issue, but they're still something you agree to with the EULA.

Modifié par Omega2079, 05 septembre 2012 - 09:08 .

[Isichar]

Omega2079 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Omega2079 wrote...

Isichar wrote...



But what about when it actually is part of the content you purchased and its locked until you pay? If I go into a store and buy a ME3 disk should I not be entitled to the content on that disk? Even if I say I want to support the developers more it feels like content is purposely been locked out in the interest of making more money which feels really scabby towards the consumer.

You're not buying the game, you're buying a licence to it. There never is a transfer of property.

The EULA has terms and conditions. Have a read, it contains a lot of details.

Except of course when I walked into the store, handed the clerk 60+ bucks and got the game handed to me.

Within the confines of the legal system, no, you're still not transfering property.

Its all about how you put the spin on it I guess.

Modifié par Isichar, 05 septembre 2012 - 09:10 .

[Omega2079]

Isichar wrote...
Its all about how you put the spin on it I guess.

It's an inter-subjective concensus. Untill that changes, the system won't recognise you as a properrty owner of the game.

[Isichar]

Omega2079 wrote...

Isichar wrote...
Its all about how you put the spin on it I guess.

It's an inter-subjective concensus. Untill that changes, the system won't recognise you as a properrty owner of the game.

Not anymore of course. For me it is not that long ago I actually owned what I purchased. EA and other companys will put a spin on why it is a good thing, but so far it has been an incredibly negative thing for the peple supporting the game who just want to enjoy it. I dont support it and frankly never will.

[GiarcYekrub]

Isichar wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

There is nothing wrong with the concept. What that dlc maybe is wrong...

Day one dlc guns...No problem.

Day one dlc character with no heavy need in plot. still no problem.

Day one dlc with a character with depth and has a heavy part of the plot and story....Big problem.

Javik adds more incite, understanding and depth to the plot and story to ME3 AND IT'S A DAY ONE DLC.... that IS THE PROBLEM.

I disagree with this so much, I want DLC to matter, I want it to fit with the ongoing narative, I want it to "incite, understanding and depth to the plot and story" the alternative is superfluous side quests like "Bring down the sky" and "pinnacle station". Your complaining because of what makes it worth the asking price IMO. Give me a Javik over a Zaeed anyday even Day 1.

Anyway roll on Omega.

But look at it this way, if your not willing to pay the extra 10-15 bucks or w/e it costs for that DLC, then wouldn't you feel like your getting an incomplete/inferior product? Making content that is important to the dynamic of the game released with the original game that is locked out to players who are not willing to pay more is very easily viewed as milking the consumer. I love DLC and I want to support the practice but it should be my choice to support it, I dont want to feel like I have to spend more to get a complete product.

No your getting the complete base product, like the people that buy the Theaterical release of films like Lord of the Rings rather than splash the cash for the extended editions.

Everybody is doing analogies so here mine Its like buying a Cheese sandwich and being offered tomato as an optional extra, Yes its an incomplete Cheese and Tomato sandwich but its a complete Cheese sandwich so either eat it without the tomato or pay up and enjoy it if tomato is your thing.

[Isichar]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Isichar wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

There is nothing wrong with the concept. What that dlc maybe is wrong...

Day one dlc guns...No problem.

Day one dlc character with no heavy need in plot. still no problem.

Day one dlc with a character with depth and has a heavy part of the plot and story....Big problem.

Javik adds more incite, understanding and depth to the plot and story to ME3 AND IT'S A DAY ONE DLC.... that IS THE PROBLEM.

I disagree with this so much, I want DLC to matter, I want it to fit with the ongoing narative, I want it to "incite, understanding and depth to the plot and story" the alternative is superfluous side quests like "Bring down the sky" and "pinnacle station". Your complaining because of what makes it worth the asking price IMO. Give me a Javik over a Zaeed anyday even Day 1.

Anyway roll on Omega.

But look at it this way, if your not willing to pay the extra 10-15 bucks or w/e it costs for that DLC, then wouldn't you feel like your getting an incomplete/inferior product? Making content that is important to the dynamic of the game released with the original game that is locked out to players who are not willing to pay more is very easily viewed as milking the consumer. I love DLC and I want to support the practice but it should be my choice to support it, I dont want to feel like I have to spend more to get a complete product.

No your getting the complete base product, like the people that buy the Theaterical release of films like Lord of the Rings rather than splash the cash for the extended editions.

Everybody is doing analogies so here mine Its like buying a Cheese sandwich and being offered tomato as an optional extra, Yes its an incomplete Cheese and Tomato sandwich but its a complete Cheese sandwich so either eat it without the tomato or pay up and enjoy it if tomato is your thing.

I view it like this. If I buy a burger, I have a right to eat whatever is on that burger when I have purchased it and eat it the way I see fit. I am not simply "renting the rights to eat the burger as they see fit" its my burger to do with as I please. I dont think you gave a good analogy because in this situation they gave me the burger with tomatos on it already and told me I have no right to eat what is already on my burger unless I pay them more because I dont actually own the burger.

I would love to see people accept that logic in this kind of situation.

Modifié par Isichar, 05 septembre 2012 - 09:57 .

[GiarcYekrub]

Isichar wrote...

I view it like this. If I buy a burger, I have a right to eat whatever is on that burger when I have purchased it and eat it the way I see fit. I am not simply "renting the rights to eat the burger as they see fit" its my burger to do with as I please. I dont think you gave a good analogy because in this situation they gave me the burger with tomatos on it already and told me I have no right to eat what is already on my burger unless I pay them more because I dont actually own the burger.

I would love to see people accept that logic in this kind of situation.

No they didn't, The Javik Premium content has always been advertised as separate product, Included only in the premium editions or as optional extra. They haven't removed anything from your purchase just offered you something else you might also be intrested in, to aid in the enjoyment of your original purchase.

[Isichar]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Isichar wrote...

I view it like this. If I buy a burger, I have a right to eat whatever is on that burger when I have purchased it and eat it the way I see fit. I am not simply "renting the rights to eat the burger as they see fit" its my burger to do with as I please. I dont think you gave a good analogy because in this situation they gave me the burger with tomatos on it already and told me I have no right to eat what is already on my burger unless I pay them more because I dont actually own the burger.

I would love to see people accept that logic in this kind of situation.

No they didn't, The Javik Premium content has always been advertised as separate product, Included only in the premium editions or as optional extra. They haven't removed anything from your purchase just offered you something else you might also be intrested in, to aid in the enjoyment of your original purchase.

Not the same, Javic/tomatos is on the CD/burger. He is part of the original purchased content. When I buy the CD over the counter before I even stick it in my computer it has Javic on it locked. The difference in this case is that they are saying you do not own the content on the CD, just the right to access it, for a burger you clearly own what you buy.

If I buy a burger and it has tomatoes on it when I buy it then I damn well have a right to eat those tomatoes.

Modifié par Isichar, 05 septembre 2012 - 10:14 .

[GiarcYekrub]

Since the Javik premium content was first shown

[GiarcYekrub]

Isichar wrote...
Not the same, Javic/tomatos is on the CD/burger. He is part of the original purchased content. When I buy the CD over the counter before I even stick it in my computer it has Javic on it locked. The difference in this case is that they are saying you do not own the content on the CD, just the right to access it, for a burger you clearly own what you buy.

If I buy a burger and it has tomatoes on it when I buy it then I damn well have a right to eat those tomatoes.

lol, you don't own what is on this disk. I thought somebody else had explained that to you. A disk is merely a delivery mechanism. Personally I prefer not having to download all the Javik files over the internet and having to store it some how on my creaking 360 20Gb HDD, If the content can be streamed from the disk this is a good thing, certainly in my situation.

So just to be clear, if Bioware had forced everyone to Download Javik entirely at an additional cost to them for hosting it and additional cost to us for bandwidth, time(I hate waiting for downloads) and storage your OK with it?

[Isichar]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Isichar wrote...
Not the same, Javic/tomatos is on the CD/burger. He is part of the original purchased content. When I buy the CD over the counter before I even stick it in my computer it has Javic on it locked. The difference in this case is that they are saying you do not own the content on the CD, just the right to access it, for a burger you clearly own what you buy.

If I buy a burger and it has tomatoes on it when I buy it then I damn well have a right to eat those tomatoes.

lol, you don't own what is on this disk. I thought somebody else had explained that to you. A disk is merely a delivery mechanism. Personally I prefer not having to download all the Javik files over the internet and having to store it some how on my creaking 360 20Gb HDD, If the content can be streamed from the disk this is a good thing, certainly in my situation.

So just to be clear, if Bioware had forced everyone to Download Javik entirely at an additional cost to them for hosting it and additional cost to us for bandwidth, time(I hate waiting for downloads) and storage your OK with it?

My point was your burger analogy does not work because of what you just admitted. I am glad we are on the same page.

Since you see content on the original disk been locked off until you pay for it a good thing for you, then I am happy your happy. I view it rather differently and for that matter quite a few people do. But I know my feelings on the matter won't change their business practices, but its sad to see people that are happy to be milked for more.

Modifié par Isichar, 05 septembre 2012 - 10:29 .

[Isichar]

Sion1138 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

My point was your burger analogy does not work because of what you just admitted. I am glad we are on the same page.

Since you see content on the original disk been locked off until you pay for it a good thing for you, then I am happy your happy. I view it rather differently and for that matter quite a few people do. But I know my feelings on the matter won't change their business practices, but its sad to see people that are happy to be milked for more.

They are a coherent unit viewing the mass of their consumers from above. They gather and accumulate data, they evaluate what they can and can not get away with.

Unfortunately, the mass seems agree to just about anything. As the years go by, they will do more and more of this. Slowly, so as to avoid shock. In the end we will accept being given half the value for the full price because it will seem that "this is how it works".

The trick is to convince people its in their best interest. Then they welcome it with open arms despite the fact it costs them more.

[GiarcYekrub]

I see how you can be mistaken into believing that you own the content on a Disk, just think of it this way, Mass Effect 3 cost what $30-40million to make do you really think they'd give you the result of all that investment for a measily $60? If you owned it then you could copy it, torrent it heck Activision,Ubisoft,etc could buy one and redistribute it and EA and bioware would just get that inital $60 back. You are only buying a very restricted license to enjoy the advertised content, nothing more.

[Isichar]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

I see how you can be mistaken into believing that you own the content on a Disk, just think of it this way, Mass Effect 3 cost what $30-40million to make do you really think they'd give you the result of all that investment for a measily $60? If you owned it then you could copy it, torrent it heck Activision,Ubisoft,etc could buy one and redistribute it and EA and bioware would just get that inital $60 back. You are only buying a very restricted license to enjoy the advertised content, nothing more.

To be very clear my only point was that the burger analogy does not work. I am well aware of the way they view it legally and whether that is right or is right or not is a different story, which I clearly do not agree with. You used buying a burger as an example for buying the game but the situations cannot compare due to the difference in the fact that when you buy the burger it is yours, we agree that the CD is a different case even if we disagree on whether it is acceptable or a good thing.

That been said to answer your question. Yes I do think that.

[GiarcYekrub]

Seems your angry about logistics, trust me there are much more important things to get worked up about in general.

Personally I'm fearful of Digital Distribution only model as I fear we are being channelled into at least on consoles a one store monopoly where only the platform holder sets the price. PC seems more healthy with Origin,GOG,Steam,etc competing.

So in general I personally would like to see more competition in the digital space. I fear we are not ready yet but I fear that publishers will push hard for it to become a reality maybe to quickly in an effort to appease attitudes like your own.

Another thing that scares me is the "Freemium" concept which I just can't get away from the phrase "death by 1000 cuts" at least with Mass Effect 3 it is a complete product without extras

[Isichar]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Seems your angry about logistics, trust me there are much more important things to get worked up about in general.

Personally I'm fearful of Digital Distribution only model as I fear we are being channelled into at least on consoles a one store monopoly where only the platform holder sets the price. PC seems more healthy with Origin,GOG,Steam,etc competing.

So in general I personally would like to see more competition in the digital space. I fear we are not ready yet but I fear that publishers will push hard for it to become a reality maybe to quickly in an effort to appease attitudes like your own.

Another thing that scares me is the "Freemium" concept which I just can't get away from the phrase "death by 1000 cuts" at least with Mass Effect 3 it is a complete product without extras

I am angry that I am paying more for less and been told I have less control over what I have purchased. As for 100% digital thats better for the companys your already so willing to give more and more money to support so you should be happy to do so. I don't see how that is any worse then what is been done already since it is progressing towards the same thing.

Modifié par Isichar, 05 septembre 2012 - 11:33 .

[GiarcYekrub]

Competition in the marketplace is important, I know I bought ME3 here in UK from ASDA because they were the cheapest, I bought another game from Tesco for the same reason, they are competing against each other for my custom driving prices down. CoD is RRP at £55 ~ $85 but because of the supermarket price wars it retails for ~£35 ($55) www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/nov/08/pricecheck-call-of-duty-modern-warfare to elimate this competition will be bad IMO

Also "The Burger" is the base content, which is all you purchased.

[GiarcYekrub]

Isichar wrote...
I am angry that I am paying more for less

This is what I don't understand, game budgets are rising massively, Just looking at Mass Effect 3 for your $60 you are now getting  a product of $30-40million investment. You are getting Martin Sheen, Your getting varied environments, HD graphics, A story that reflects the choices made in prevous games, both a male and female protagonist etc.