304 réponses à ce sujet

[Justin2k]

*LEVIATHAN SPOILERS*

Leviathan was a plot device that could have ended it somewhat conventionally. Have the ships drop black artifacts behind enemy lines. Then let the Leviathans control the reapers and fight each other like the Brutes did. Then send in the fleets to attack.

Also you wouldn't have to kill every reaper, just Harbinger or something and they could fall back into deep space.

Bioware overthought it. There should have been a 0.1% chance of a conventional victory, and Shepard was that 0.1%. Everyone goes happy.

[prog_bassist]

Cheesesack wrote...

Also, people keep saying "How can we hope to achieve conventional victory when none of the other cycles in all this time did? This proves that it's impossible." Guess what, none of the other cycles managed to complete the Crucible and set it off either, and it's implied that every cycle has attempted it in some way (or at least, many of the more recent cycles). The whole point of Me is that this cycle if different; we're the ones that finally break the chain. If that wasn't the case, the game would just show us failing no matter what and be utterly pointless.

If we can achieve what no other cycle could; build and successfully deploy the Crucible, then why is it so unbelievable that we could also do what no other cycle could and win the fight? After all, we have many advantages over previous cycles.

You don't simply build thousands of more ships in such a short amount of time.  That's what conventional victory is going to amount to, because the Reapers will take dozens of ships, if not more, with them before going down.  With Hierarchy and Alliance forces suffering major losses and in disarray, there's no time and manpower to simultaneously engage in a ground war while training personnel to man new ships.

[Conniving_Eagle]

ZajoE38 wrote...

Conventional victory is simply not an option. Reapers are meant to be invulnerable and pose an ultimate threat. It's the basis of ME. Anyone who understands that, knew that deux ex machina - some super weapon of mass destruction was needed to defeat them if there will be final game. For those still don't get it and want to change the narration, it was many times said in game that Reapers can't be defeated conventionally.

Wrong. This concept is very poorly established by the writers in Mass Effect 3 with Hackett's "Omfg, I just got pwned. There's no way we can beat them conventionally, Shepard." after the Alliance got caught by the Reapers with their pants down. Do even know what a deus-ex machina is? The Reapers are meant to be invulnerable and a deus ex machina was necessary to beat them - both of these are incorrect and objectively poor from a literary standpoint, and both were forced upon the plot by the writers in Mass Effect 3. 

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 31 août 2012 - 03:04 .

[Ironhandjustice]

Pitznik wrote...

I hope it won't happen. If something would ever happened to the ending to create some sort of super uber happy ending, make it some high EMS destroy or even new function of the Crucible. Throwing the Crucible away would be moronic, and replacing it with just normal conventional victory would be even worse.

so... you want an answer to this?

Ok, go and see "marauder shields comic".

SID receives a Mordin's Message like: "if you see this, I'm dead. seems the crucible is interfacing with the reapers, we have walked INTO A TRAP!"

Why this is not a valid plot twist? You spent the entire game building a reaper trap thought to disolve all organic efforts to fight against the reapers.

Check mate.

[Jadebaby]

"come on.. We can DO this!" - Femshep.

[Cheesesack]

The plot does not become filler or a dead end. How much of the plot directly relates to the Crucible? None, apart from maybe the mission on Thessia. You are securing alliances for a push to take back Earth and at the same time, each new ally adds to the Crucible project. You get plenty of war assets which are nothing to do with the Crucible and are solely for the fleet which attacks the Sol system. Securing these alliances and convincing these people to help you would be just as relevant for a conventional victory. You would do pretty much exactly the same stuff even if part way through, Hackett decides to abandon the Crucible project and just go all out for a naval victory (which is not what I'm suggesting should happen at all). As for people getting courtmartialed, that really does make no sense.

As for the suicide mission, Ithe comparrison I'm making is that the mission has different gradients of success. You can accomplish the goal (stop the Collectors) with people dying, or you can get the best ending where everyone lives. The comparisson should go something lie this:

Worst Ending (achieved through doing the bost basic, bare-bones playthrough and/or making bad decisions):

ME2 - Everyone including Shepard dies after accomplishing their goal.
ME3 - Low EMS gives a rubbishy Crucible that kills everyone and.or you refuse the Catalyst and end up losing the war.

Decent ending (got through completeing most of the in game content but not relaint on other games and/or finding and completing everything):

ME2 - Mission is completed with some casualties, you get to continue into ME3.
ME3 - Crucible works as intended and you get the choice of multiple ways of using it.

Best ending (achieved through finding every last asset in the game and/or playing other games and optional DLC and/or making the right decisions to ensure maximum support in the final battle):

ME2 - Shepard defies everyones expectations and keeps his/her entire squad alive.
ME3 (currently) - Er, well, nothing. I guess Shepard taking a breath, but you can easily get that with a standard playthrough.
ME3 (conventional victory ending)- Shepard defies everyones expectations by uncovering enough new intel/technology and rallying enough races to give oranics a slim but definite hope of a conventional victory.

And that's assuming that this ending would be inherantly 'better' and 'happier' than the existing ones, which it wouldn't necessarily be.

[Jadebaby]

Ironhandjustice wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

I hope it won't happen. If something would ever happened to the ending to create some sort of super uber happy ending, make it some high EMS destroy or even new function of the Crucible. Throwing the Crucible away would be moronic, and replacing it with just normal conventional victory would be even worse.

so... you want an answer to this?

Ok, go and see "marauder shields comic".

SID receives a Mordin's Message like: "if you see this, I'm dead. seems the crucible is interfacing with the reapers, we have walked INTO A TRAP!"

Why this is not a valid plot twist? You spent the entire game building a reaper trap thought to disolve all organic efforts to fight against the reapers.

Check mate.

Exactly, and having it as a trap makes more sense lorewise then what it's actually ment for.

[Ironhandjustice]

Justin2k wrote...

*LEVIATHAN SPOILERS*

Leviathan was a plot device that could have ended it somewhat conventionally. Have the ships drop black artifacts behind enemy lines. Then let the Leviathans control the reapers and fight each other like the Brutes did. Then send in the fleets to attack.

Also you wouldn't have to kill every reaper, just Harbinger or something and they could fall back into deep space.

Bioware overthought it. There should have been a 0.1% chance of a conventional victory, and Shepard was that 0.1%. Everyone goes happy.

And why "man" them?

You have the quarians and the geth (assume they are both necessary). They can interface the ships agains the geth hive mind. "Surprise, you squid-face"

[Conniving_Eagle]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Conventional victory being impossible is a thematic betrayal in of itself. Up until this point, the player was meant to believe that they could defeat the Reapers on their own terms. Conventional Victory = Impossible was only [arguably] established in the third game.

Prior, we are given the sense of "Our cycle is different." The Reapers' effectiveness at 'reaping' comes not from their firepower or military capabilities, it comes from their patience and ruthless calculus. In the previous cycles, the Reapers would pour through the Citadel, killing the galaxy's leaders and obtaining all the necessary information on advanced organic life. More importantly, they gain total control of the Mass Relays. The Reapers then proceed shut down all the relays, only opening one at a time to systematically wipe out its respective local civilization(s). This is what Sovereign meant when it said "We are legion. Our numbers will darken the skies of every world." Sovereign didn't mean this would occur simultaneously, they don't have the numbers for that. The Reapers' success is the result of cutting off a system's communication, then swarming it, planet by planet.

The Reapers have already lost this critical advantage. I'm curious to know how they learned anything about this galaxy, they didn't capture the Citadel until the end of the game. How did they ascertain which planets were colonies, homeworlds, the location of Arcturus Station, each race's level of technology and capabilities (they obviously prepared for the Turians). There are the Collectors, but they operated in the Terminus systems, and only collected genetic information.

With the destruction of Sovereign, the Turians developed Thanix technology. Commander Shepard retrieved information and Reaper tech from the derelict dreadnought and the Collector base. What about Arrival? What the hell was the point of that DLC? Give the Alliance and Council another 6 months to sit on their asses doing nothing? You think the Reapers would've been weakened from having to make a journey spanning thousands of light years from dark space to the milky way.

Javik comments that this cycle might have a chance, that the reason the Prothean Empire was due to its hegemony, and even then, the Protheans came close to defeating the Reapers.
Remember the end of Mass Effect 2?

www.youtube.com/watch

The music is not menacing or depressing, there isn't some long fixation on the Reapers to get the point across to the player "Yeah, look at how huge their fleet is, they are unstoppable." The music is at first subtle, but it is upbeat, optimistic, and hopeful. We then see Shepard glance out into space, with composed look on their face, as if to say "Bring it on." Then the camera switches switches to show the Reaper fleet in dark space, descending upon the Milky Way, but keep in mind the music, it is epic, upbeat, optimistic. It is foreshadowing what an epic and grand scale ME3 would be for the player (one of the best executed endings to get someone excited for a sequel IMO).

ME3 could have been so much more, there was no need for a super weapon, because the antagonists weren't established as invincible (which is poor writing). If done correctly, conventional victory wouldn't have broken Mass Effect's lore or made the Reapers look like pushovers. It was only in the third game that they writers decided "Nope. They're unstoppable, there's no way you can beat the Reapers." Even then, you can still make the argument that we didn't need the Crucible to win in ME3, there wasn't enough information on the Reapers to disprove it."

Pretty much sums up my feelings on it, if a bit unrefined.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 31 août 2012 - 03:09 .

[Pitznik]

wwinters99 wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

Omega 4 suicide mission - impossible UNLESS reaper IFF, loyal squad, etc
Peace between the Geth and Quarians - impossible UNLESS loyal Tali, loyal Legion etc
Defeating the Reapers - impossible UNLESS the Crucible, allied galaxy

The above are all impossible WITHOUT SHEPARD.

We are told over and over in ME2 that the suicide mission is impossible, yet Shepard can bring everyone back alive.

We are told over and over in ME3 that the reapers are unbeatable, yet....oops, yes the are, too bad, buy DLC.

Shepard is spiritus movens in all of those situations, but he still needs some kind of an edge to beat the odds. In ME3 such an edge is Crucible which wouldn't be constructed without Shepard, and galaxy cooperating, which again wouldn't be possible without Shepard. Remember it is about DEFEATING THE REAPERS, not about adding some self-imposed restriction on top of that.

[Pitznik]

Ironhandjustice wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

I hope it won't happen. If something would ever happened to the ending to create some sort of super uber happy ending, make it some high EMS destroy or even new function of the Crucible. Throwing the Crucible away would be moronic, and replacing it with just normal conventional victory would be even worse.

so... you want an answer to this?

Ok, go and see "marauder shields comic".

SID receives a Mordin's Message like: "if you see this, I'm dead. seems the crucible is interfacing with the reapers, we have walked INTO A TRAP!"

Why this is not a valid plot twist? You spent the entire game building a reaper trap thought to disolve all organic efforts to fight against the reapers.

Check mate.

Marauder Shield comics reeks of pathos. It is not a valid twist, because without the Crucible there is nothing left. If there was, Crucible wouldn't be even built, and certainly not deployed. For your idea to work, the conventional victory would have to be impossible before the Earth operation and suddenly become possible after the Crucible turning out to be a trap. How? Remember, certainty of defeat is the only excuse to deploy the Crucible, it is too costly and too risky to even try it in any other case.

[CommanderVyse]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

So its a very tough sell for a conventional victory.

With a good enough writer, nothing is a tough sell.

[Cheesesack]

Cainne Chapel wrote...
So its a very tough sell for a conventional victory. The narrative of even the first two games, pretty much says conventional aint gonna work

You see, this is where I disagree. Yes, the reapers are made out to be an incredibly powerful, nigh unbetable enemy in the first two games, but Shepard facing overwhelming odds is nothing new, it's practically the norm.

The Crucible is only convenitantly discovered at the start of ME3 (one single line of text in an ME2 DLC that may or may not refer to it doesn't count). Until then, no one had the faintest idea it existed. Yet clearly, Sheaprd still thought they could win and intended to fight regardless. There's no evidence for the Reapers unbetablesness other than he fact various people say "we can't beat them". Now, I'm not denying they're incredibly powerful and outmatch lots of the stuff we have, I'm just saying there's nothing that concretley proves they are 'unbeatble'.

What did Shepard intend to do about the Reapers before they discovered the Crucible? He/she says at the start of ME3 that the only hope is to rally all the races, to unite everyone against the Reapers. Sheaprd has had since ME1 to think about fighting them. Clearly, he/she thought it was possible to win in some way, and I doubt Shepard's only hope was to rely on the conveniant discovery of an ancient superweapon to do that.

It's only ME3 that definitively states that the Reapers are 'unbeatable' without the Crucible since before then, no one knew the Crucible even existed or had any way of knowing it would be discovered.

[NexusIsaac]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Conventional victory being impossible is a thematic betrayal in of itself. Up until this point, the player was meant to believe that they could defeat the Reapers on their own terms. Conventional Victory = Impossible was only [arguably] established in the third game.

Prior, we are given the sense of "Our cycle is different." The Reapers' effectiveness at 'reaping' comes not from their firepower or military capabilities, it comes from their patience and ruthless calculus. In the previous cycles, the Reapers would pour through the Citadel, killing the galaxy's leaders and obtaining all the necessary information on advanced organic life. More importantly, they gain total control of the Mass Relays. The Reapers then proceed shut down all the relays, only opening one at a time to systematically wipe out its respective local civilization(s). This is what Sovereign meant when it said "We are legion. Our numbers will darken the skies of every world." Sovereign didn't mean this would occur simultaneously, they don't have the numbers for that. The Reapers' success is the result of cutting off a system's communication, then swarming it, planet by planet.

The Reapers have already lost this critical advantage. I'm curious to know how they learned anything about this galaxy, they didn't capture the Citadel until the end of the game. How did they ascertain which planets were colonies, homeworlds, the location of Arcturus Station, each race's level of technology and capabilities (they obviously prepared for the Turians). There are the Collectors, but they operated in the Terminus systems, and only collected genetic information.

With the destruction of Sovereign, the Turians developed Thanix technology. Commander Shepard retrieved information and Reaper tech from the derelict dreadnought and the Collector base. What about Arrival? What the hell was the point of that DLC? Give the Alliance and Council another 6 months to sit on their asses doing nothing? You think the Reapers would've been weakened from having to make a journey spanning thousands of light years from dark space to the milky way.

Javik comments that this cycle might have a chance, that the reason the Prothean Empire was due to its hegemony, and even then, the Protheans came close to defeating the Reapers.
Remember the end of Mass Effect 2?

www.youtube.com/watch

The music is not menacing or depressing, there isn't some long fixation on the Reapers to get the point across to the player "Yeah, look at how huge their fleet is, they are unstoppable." The music is at first subtle, but it is upbeat, optimistic, and hopeful. We then see Shepard glance out into space, with composed look on their face, as if to say "Bring it on." Then the camera switches switches to show the Reaper fleet in dark space, descending upon the Milky Way, but keep in mind the music, it is epic, upbeat, optimistic. It is foreshadowing what an epic and grand scale ME3 would be for the player (one of the best executed endings to get someone excited for a sequel IMO).

ME3 could have been so much more, there was no need for a super weapon, because the antagonists weren't established as invincible (which is poor writing). If done correctly, conventional victory wouldn't have broken Mass Effect's lore or made the Reapers look like pushovers. It was only in the third game that they writers decided "Nope. They're unstoppable, there's no way you can beat the Reapers." Even then, you can still make the argument that we didn't need the Crucible to win in ME3, there wasn't enough information on the Reapers to disprove it."

Just wanted to agree with that. The only thing we can do now is to give constructive, painful criticism.

[Ironhandjustice]

Pitznik wrote...

Ironhandjustice wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

I hope it won't happen. If something would ever happened to the ending to create some sort of super uber happy ending, make it some high EMS destroy or even new function of the Crucible. Throwing the Crucible away would be moronic, and replacing it with just normal conventional victory would be even worse.

so... you want an answer to this?

Ok, go and see "marauder shields comic".

SID receives a Mordin's Message like: "if you see this, I'm dead. seems the crucible is interfacing with the reapers, we have walked INTO A TRAP!"

Why this is not a valid plot twist? You spent the entire game building a reaper trap thought to disolve all organic efforts to fight against the reapers.

Check mate.

Marauder Shield comics reeks of pathos. It is not a valid twist, because without the Crucible there is nothing left. If there was, Crucible wouldn't be even built, and certainly not deployed. For your idea to work, the conventional victory would have to be impossible before the Earth operation and suddenly become possible after the Crucible turning out to be a trap. How? Remember, certainty of defeat is the only excuse to deploy the Crucible, it is too costly and too risky to even try it in any other case.

You don't even consider the possibility of finding something that helps you to defeat the reapers. You go to play football with eleven players? Or you bring more?

This is the same, if we found additional weapons, they should be used as secondary plans. You state, without hesitate, that the crucible is the only way to kill the reapers. According to what? only according to "I have no choice". This is supposed to be roleplay, pal.

And what about leviathans? they should be enraged against the reapers. They seem to have an incredible power that shuts down a reaper.

You want to kill reapers? Fine, arm suicide vesseles with amplifiers for this guys, Escort them inside reaper fleet.

BLAM. Psionic blast.

Reapers reaped. Heh.

On the other side, the Dark Energy plot is still out there. It could be scrapped, OR, modified in order to do something with it. What if one of your future dlcs make possible to build dark energy weapons?

They could pass through reaper shields and meke the fight equal. "Yeah, you have a red death-ray that ****s my ships with one shot... but I have the same, and more ships than you, moron".

This is sci-fi, all is possible with deus ex machina, I see it like investigation at the first ME. Previously:

-Prothean beacon
-Liara
-Thorian
-Location of the mu relay.

For (for example) DE weapons you need:

-Cool leviathans to understand DE
-Dark energy lab ruins
-Dark energy weapon prototype
-A scientist capable of doing this.

Why not?

[Cheesesack]

Also, for those of you saying that we don't have the strength to defeat the Reapers, you may well be correct. But that's my point; each new DLC they release can contain more tools for us to use against them. This can be both gameplay wise (new war assets to raise our EMS to the required level for a 'conventional victory' ending) and lore wise (powerful new allies and technology that allow us to equal the Reapers).

I'd argue that the Leviathans alone giveus a massive, massive boost. This isn't particularly reflected in the EMS (which is sizeable but nothing special), but in terms of lore, I feel that it is. Sure, maybe they can't defeat the Reapers on their own (or they'd have done it by now), but the add a massive amount of weight to the allied forces. Who knows what more DLC could add? Bioware can put in anything, and with good enough writing (something they are clearly capable off despite the mess that is the ending), they can make it believable.

Sure, conventional victory may be a hard sell, but that's the point. The whole point of every underdog story ever is that success seems impossible or unlikely, but it's accomplished anyway. And it doesn't usually require some magical plot device to make it happen. In Rocky, he didn't win because he found a new boxing glove which exploded when he punched his enemy in the face. He won because of his hard work and determination.

Modifié par Cheesesack, 31 août 2012 - 03:30 .

[ThaDPG]

Vigilant111 wrote...

I do not see how a conventional victory could rub anyone the wrong way, it is RPG, you choose your own path, how one's actions and consequences cannot possibly diminish the effects of other peoples' endings. Sure, it would be a huge retcon, but one could argue that ME3 ending was itself a retcon on the entire series

Yes, they are meant to be invincible, but everything has weaknesses, these reapers are no more powerful than the universe itself

No, conventional warfare is not repeating the mistakes of previous cycles, the mistakes in previous cycles were splinter groups, uniformity in combat tactics due to lack of diversity...

The Crucible is a machine, a weapon that can be modified to enhance a conventional victory, it would actually give way to a more satisfying showing of the use of war assets, that people were actually doing things that are more useful than just distracting a couple of harbingers or protecting the Crucible entering Earth

And to add to that, Shepard's cycle is the first to have a totally united galaxy, organics and synthetics, so they are definitly not repeating the mistakes of the other cycles

[Cainne Chapel]

wwinters99 wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

So its a very tough sell for a conventional victory.

With a good enough writer, nothing is a tough sell.

True, but even a good enough writer cant make me believe that Jimmy Olson could Punch Clark Kent and Clark would get hurt by it.

[D24O]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

True, but even a good enough writer cant make me believe that Jimmy Olson could Punch Clark Kent and Clark would get hurt by it.

Accually Jimmy Olson is a super saiyan made of kryptonite.

[Cheesesack]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

wwinters99 wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

So its a very tough sell for a conventional victory.

With a good enough writer, nothing is a tough sell.

True, but even a good enough writer cant make me believe that Jimmy Olson could Punch Clark Kent and Clark would get hurt by it.

It's not really the same. We're shown several times that organics are capable of destroying Reaper capital ships. They're super tough, yes, but it's not like our weapons are incapable of hurting or destroying them.

Modifié par Cheesesack, 31 août 2012 - 03:41 .

[Cainne Chapel]

Cheesesack wrote...

Also, for those of you saying that we don't have the strength to defeat the Reapers, you may well be correct. But that's my point; each new DLC they release can contain more tools for us to use against them. This can be both gameplay wise (new war assets to raise our EMS to the required level for a 'conventional victory' ending) and lore wise (powerful new allies and technology that allow us to equal the Reapers).

I'd argue that the Leviathans alone giveus a massive, massive boost. This isn't particularly reflected in the EMS (which is sizeable but nothing special), but in terms of lore, I feel that it is. Sure, maybe they can't defeat the Reapers on their own (or they'd have done it by now), but the add a massive amount of weight to the allied forces. Who knows what more DLC could add? Bioware can put in anything, and with good enough writing (something they are clearly capable off despite the mess that is the ending), they can make it believable.

Sure, conventional victory may be a hard sell, but that's the point. The whole point of every underdog story ever is that success seems impossible or unlikely, but it's accomplished anyway. And it doesn't usually require some magical plot device to make it happen. In Rocky, he didn't win because he found a new boxing glove which exploded when he punched his enemy in the face. He won because of his hard work and determination.

Believe me I hear ya cheesstack, problem is though, the narrative was never made in a way (as far back as ME1) that made it look like taking the reapers headon would be a good or SMART idea.

Hell we luckily beat a Reaper (through its own dumb move mind you) and then turn around and get blown up by their lackeys.   Who also can take out colonies left and right easily (Those swarms were sweet...bet the reapers wish they had more for planet control no?).

Then we turn around and ahve to face tens of thousands of said ships?  Now Shepard is essentially a god as he is the main character, so things tend to break down in front of him.

But an army of world destroying godlike spaceships I think is a bit much EVEN for shepard (nevermind he takes one on on foot, and can dodge it stamping feet... thats besides he point) and yes if someone can do it, its gonna be Shepard

But not conventionally, anyway they change it to make it POSSIBLE for a conventional victory would come off as even more forced than the current endings people dont like.  Now as I said I'm all for more , WELL thought out endings.  But even I cant wrap my head around a hard fought conventional ending, even if it cost the galaxy most of its infrastructure.

Problem is the galactic alliance just does NOT have the man or ship power to take them on head on, even with Leviathans help (because lets face it, if the Leviathans were truly as strong as they say, 1) we wouldnt know about them and 2) they'd of taken back their galaxy in their prime.  No now they're just a relic of the past, used to hiding and scurying.

though I would like to see a Leviathan and Thorian control battle,  see who wins.

[Pitznik]

Ironhandjustice wrote...


You don't even consider the possibility of finding something that helps you to defeat the reapers. You go to play football with eleven players? Or you bring more?

This is the same, if we found additional weapons, they should be used as secondary plans. You state, without hesitate, that the crucible is the only way to kill the reapers. According to what? only according to "I have no choice". This is supposed to be roleplay, pal.

And what about leviathans? they should be enraged against the reapers. They seem to have an incredible power that shuts down a reaper.

You want to kill reapers? Fine, arm suicide vesseles with amplifiers for this guys, Escort them inside reaper fleet.

BLAM. Psionic blast.

Reapers reaped. Heh.

On the other side, the Dark Energy plot is still out there. It could be scrapped, OR, modified in order to do something with it. What if one of your future dlcs make possible to build dark energy weapons?

They could pass through reaper shields and meke the fight equal. "Yeah, you have a red death-ray that ****s my ships with one shot... but I have the same, and more ships than you, moron".

This is sci-fi, all is possible with deus ex machina, I see it like investigation at the first ME. Previously:

-Prothean beacon
-Liara
-Thorian
-Location of the mu relay.

For (for example) DE weapons you need:

-Cool leviathans to understand DE
-Dark energy lab ruins
-Dark energy weapon prototype
-A scientist capable of doing this.

Why not?

You don't understand me at all. If all the thing you mention would be possible, there wouldn't be ANY REASON to deploy the Crucible. Crucible plan is so hopeless, so unpredictable, that everything else giving hope become a primary plan. It works only if there is no other choice. To make conventional victory possible you would have to drop the Crucible ENTIRELY, thus rewriting good part of the plot. No sane person would risk all of the galaxy unengaged forces in a battle to use the device that might as well do nothing, if there would be an alternative.

[Cainne Chapel]

Granted D2, I did hear Lil' Jimmy WAS a genuine bad ass back in the day and that the cameraman schtick is just to pay bills

I hear ya cheessack, but we're also shown it took a FLEET to take out ONE with LUCK on their side.

Not to mention the Reapers have more than just capital ships at their command and they're tech SEVERELY outmatches ours.

Heck Destroyers alone are rpetty dang powerful to make no mention of capital ships

[Cainne Chapel]

Basically the way i see it is like this

Conventional Victory makes about as much sense as Random merc#2 ending shepard in a knife fight. It COULD happen yes, but is it? nope.

edit: But think of the possibilites for that merc! He could be the new face of ME, make all the money, be the badass of the galaxy.

Modifié par Cainne Chapel, 31 août 2012 - 03:52 .

[clennon8]

Conventional victory is, like, for noobs. Cool people win with MacGuffins! DERP.