304 réponses à ce sujet

[GimmeDaGun]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

LOL

Nowhere was the Crucible advertised at all. What was shown was the SWORDS fleet and various other battle scenes that displayed conventional fighting. Even Bioware knows what's popular in trailers. Plus the pre-release hype about choices.

Advertising the Crucible would have been pretty spoilerish. They didn't show anything about the Catalyst either. Trailers usually show spectacular, action filled moments. They aim to hype people up. Not that surprising at all. 

[GimmeDaGun]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

DJRackham wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Conventional victory was not only possible but advertised in the trailers and pre-release hype.

False advertising does not mean that it is possible...

It means it should have been possible  <_<

What kind of logic says that a basically unbeatable enemy can be destroyed by canons and missles? I still can't see it. The battle at the end would have turned into a butchery pretty fast if it wasn't for the Crucible... I mean look at the size and firepower of the reaper armada.

The circumstances of this cycle were so unique that a conventional victory was pretty much what almost every fan expected.

I've already written my views on this matter in some of my previous posts in this thread, if you are interested you can find them in here.

But in a nutshell: yes, "this" and the previous cycle were so unique that they managed to delay the reaper attack and unreveal the reaper threat before they could arrive and take the galaxy by surpise. The reapers had to change plans because of that. It was also unique because they managed to put aside old quarrels and grudes, so they could work together on the ancient devise which they hoped to destroy the reapers.

They could get together a strike force great enough to escort this devise to the Citadell, and made it work... in the end they managed to stop the reapers, a force no one could stop for millions of years. Unique enough? I say, yes.

But no one before (even more advanced and in their own way unique civilizations, like the protheans) managed to destroy the reapers by conventional means (just take a look at all the cunning prothean initatives which failed). Even this cycle didn't have the technological advantage and knowlege to stop an ancient sentient armada of cyborg ships which collected knowledge and manipulated technological and social evolution in the galaxy since they have come to be (even before them the "leviathans" ruled the galaxy... the reapers predecessors). The reapers are quite thorough and resourseful, and damn they are powerful. 

So, yes I get that many people wished for a conventional victory and a more traditional - a bit hollywoodish if you ask me - approach to the endings, but I think this one works just as well, if not better than the ending you wish the story had.

Although I still think that a traditional ending would have ruined the whole - established - reaper myth in a whim and would have made Shep technically another GI Joe hero who defeats anything what is thrown at him with his left hand, then take his triumphant medal of honor and walk away with his damsel to the sunset... meh... I don't know if it would have been a better way to end a dark sci-fi saga like this. But it all comes down to taste and personal preferences in the end. 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 31 août 2012 - 11:38 .

[fr33stylez]

You'd need a entire rewrite of ME3 (which would be nice) in order to have 'Conventional Victory' make sense (and a partial rewrite of ME2 to make it great). Otherwise you're just adding more nonsensical crap on top of nonsensical crap.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 31 août 2012 - 11:28 .

[Aaleel]

I hope not, I just couldn't buy it at all, and it would make focusing on building the crucible all game pointless.

Honestly if the original ending allowed us to just walk up, use the crucible and kill all the reapers no one would have any trouble accepting that the crucible was the only way, or be concerned about conventional victory being possible.

No one even knows how many reapers there are. I remember the end of ME2, and the sea of reapers that was still appearing when they cut away. In a war of attrition I just couldn't buy it.

Modifié par Aaleel, 31 août 2012 - 11:36 .

[DistantUtopia]

Pitznik wrote...
You know what I mean. In case you don't - super happy devaluated to "without genocide/eugenics/slavery" or whatever you wish to call various drawbacks of option we currently have. Just that.

I always believed Conventional Victory meant an even worse drawback than the 3 RGP palettes.  I hate the Crucible as it is but I've never ever thought of a Conventional as the "super happy" most people seem to attach to it.

[Binary_Helix 1]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

I've already written my views on this matter in some of my previous posts in this thread, if you are interested you can find them in here.

But in a nutshell: yes, "this" and the previous cycle were so unique that they managed to delay the reaper attack and unreveal the reaper threat before they could arrive and take the galaxy by surpise. The reapers had to change plans because of that. It was also unique because they managed to put aside old quarrels and grudes, so they could work together on the ancient devise which they hoped to destroy the reapers.

They could get together a strike force great enough to escort this devise to the Citadell, and made it work... in the end they managed to stop the reapers, a force no one could stop for millions of years. Unique enough? I say, yes.

But no one before (even more advanced and in their own way unique civilizations, like the protheans) managed to destroy the reapers by conventional means (just take a look at all the cunning prothean initatives which failed). Even this cycle didn't have the technological advantage and knowlege to stop an ancient sentient armada of cyborg ships which collected knowledge and manipulated technological and social evolution in the galaxy since they have come to be (even before them the "leviathans" ruled the galaxy... the reapers predecessors). The reapers are quite thorough and resourseful, and damn they are powerful. 

So, yes I get that many people wished for a conventional victory and a more traditional - a bit hollywoodish if you ask me - approach to the endings, but I think this one works just as well, if not better than the ending you wish the story had.

Although I still think that a traditional ending would have ruined the whole - established - reaper myth in a whim and would have made Shep technically another GI Joe hero who defeats anything what is thrown at him with his left hand, then take his triumphant medal of honor and walk away with his damsel to the sunset... meh... I don't know if it would have been a better way to end a dark sci-fi saga like this. But it all comes down to taste and personal preferences in the end. 

Reverse engineering Sovereign's remains leapfrogged weapons development by several generations and lead to the Thanix canon which obliterated The Collector Cruiser. Plus the Collector Base itself was reaper tech and could have contained a gold mine of knowledge. Add to that the Rachni which could breed so fast they'd match every indoctrinated reaper soldier to a man. Then Citadel forces still had access to the relays, communications, plus they fought together as a united galaxy.

Compare all that to building something so stupid nobody even knows how it works, what it does, or if it will even function. When it does enable "victory" it does so in an absurd manner. You see the groundwork for victory was already established in the first two games. They didn't need to go off in a bizarre new direction. The fan backlash at ME3 is totaly warranted.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 31 août 2012 - 11:42 .

[DarthSliver]

I think for a conventional victory ME2 would need to change where the Council stuck to believing in what Shepard said after Shepard gets ambushed by Collectors never to be seen until Cerberus revives him/her. I strongly think conventional victory was thrown out the airlock because of the Council arrogance in believing whatever they wanted once Shepard was gone and not bugging them anymore about the Reaper Threat. I am sure thats why Harbinger had the Collectors take Shepard out too because he knew if that human wasnt there the Galaxy would have no hope to prepare for their Arrival.

As much as Iike your idea Cheesesack the most Bioware could do is give us a cutscene showing us maybe taking the Reaper Fleet out at Earth but end with the Reapers in other systems coming in wiping out the United Forces. Its been said there are enough Reapers to Darken every sky of every planet of the Galaxy and this shows on the Galaxy Map even before you attack the Cerberus base. You forget that every known Solar System on the Galaxy Map is occupied by the time you have all your forces attack Earth. The forces you gather were only met to be cannon Fodder so you can put that Crucible where its needed to go so you can flip the Reapers off by winning.

[V-rcingetorix]

Well written, and logically contemplated Cheesesack. I think Conventional victory is very possible, especially as it is admitted as being possible in the Codex.

Repurposing the Crucible seems to be an excellent method, as well as making an actual point to all the extra EMS. Overall, the ending should include a reunion of some sort, since the same was done in all previous versions. Only in the worst possible ending was a reunion impossible, no it's the only ending :/

[V-rcingetorix]

Addendum:

You don't need to rewrite anything. Just make the Crucible a little more user-friendly; maybe have a DLC where the Quarian Admiral Xen discovers the Crucible for Dummies guide deep within the Prothean data.

[The Spamming Troll]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Although I still think that a traditional ending would have ruined the whole - established - reaper myth in a whim and would have made Shep technically another GI Joe hero who defeats anything what is thrown at him with his left hand, then take his triumphant medal of honor and walk away with his damsel to the sunset... meh... I don't know if it would have been a better way to end a dark sci-fi saga like this. But it all comes down to taste and personal preferences in the end. 

at what point in the game is it ok for shepard to not be a hero? is the end of the game a good point for shepard to lose?

did your shepard die at the end of ME3? id bet he did.

if i defeated the reapers by uniting the galaxy to fight the reapers, basically doing everything i was doing in the game(while not caring about the crucible), id be almost 100% more content with what actually happens after i plug in the crucible. the only reason the reapers werent defeated conventionally was because bioware wrote it like that. i just dont agree with SO BE IT. id have written it differently.

underdog story > spaceidiot

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 01 septembre 2012 - 12:25 .

[xsdob]

I say we have a conventional pyrrhic ending, with 100% ems you can destroy all the reapers at the cost of 90% of all populations of every race.

You'll win, and be able to tell your children about it as you repopulate the cosmos, and you won't need to use the crucible while keeping the endings realistic in terms of fighting a force as strong as the reapers.

And for all of you who say, "We should attack the citadel" Let me ask you this,

1. What makes you think the reapers won't defend the citadel with everything they have, since they themselves are very difficult to beat.

2. What makes you think the citadel is so easily destroyed? It could have sheilds more powerful sheilds that keep if from being destroyed, deployable guns for defense, hell it could ****ing be able to move on it's own for all we know about it.

3. What garuntee do you have that destroying the citadel will actually destroy the catalyst?

Modifié par xsdob, 01 septembre 2012 - 12:29 .

[The Spamming Troll]

what if the crucible just disabled reapers within a certain proximity?

then since reapers seem to be nearly indestructible, we just go ME2 style and get inside the reapers and destroy their cores. we'd get to destroy a few of the species the reapers harvested, a few boss battles, then harbingers core would be chuck norris. ...i feel like ive posted this idea before.

[N7 Spectre525]

Hudathan wrote...

N7 Spectre525 wrote...

I played this trilogy fully expecting my Shepard to die. But I did not expect my Shepard to roll over like some Punk to some bratty AI/KID and meekly pick his own death. This wasn't my Renegade Shepard,I dont  now who that guy was.
And as far as succesfully saving the galaxy,thats a matter of opinion because from what I saw in my original ending pre-EC the galaxy was fuqqqed up.

So what would 'your Shepard' have done besides using the Crucible? Unless your Shepard is actually not concerned with doing whatever it takes to save the galaxy.

My Shep is not going to become some Overlord or force mass Synthesis on the galaxy or kill of his allies who helped him get that far. Its f'd up but I refuse to go along with some punk ass Reaper. I should be able to win or lose depending on my galactic readiness if I refuse the brats offers. Too low, galaxy is destroyed,very high, galaxy is liberated but with very high casulties.

[Dharvy]

xsdob wrote...

I say we have a conventional pyrrhic ending, with 100% ems you can destroy all the reapers at the cost of 90% of all populations of every race.

You'll win, and be able to tell your children about it as you repopulate the cosmos, and you won't need to use the crucible while keeping the endings realistic in terms of fighting a force as strong as the reapers.

And for all of you who say, "We should attack the citadel" Let me ask you this,

1. What makes you think the reapers won't defend the citadel with everything they have, since they themselves are very difficult to beat.

2. What makes you think the citadel is so easily destroyed? It could have sheilds more powerful sheilds that keep if from being destroyed, deployable guns for defense, hell it could ****ing be able to move on it's own for all we know about it.

3. What garuntee do you have that destroying the citadel will actually destroy the catalyst?

And 90% of the galaxy is dead is preferable to say the simple destroy ending?

Ending: Shepards lives and after the war its it gets out that Shepard could have ended the war years earlier but refused because he states so in one point in time in a debreif and becomes the anti-hero and is court marshalled, hunted, hated and the deaths of the Galaxy gets blamed on him. Shepard have even more nightmares of all the voices from the dead screaming "Why didn't you save us!?"

But simply from a visual standpoint I'll enjoy seeing a galatic battle. But trying to win without using the Crucible almost feels like Frodo refusing to throw the Ring in the fire. Or in Star wars refusing to attack the weak spot on the Death Star and trying to hope your forces destroy the enemy by some other means. After having the plot device already in place to destroy your enemy and then trying for another way kinda seems stupid.

[Dharvy]

N7 Spectre525 wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

N7 Spectre525 wrote...

I played this trilogy fully expecting my Shepard to die. But I did not expect my Shepard to roll over like some Punk to some bratty AI/KID and meekly pick his own death. This wasn't my Renegade Shepard,I dont  now who that guy was.
And as far as succesfully saving the galaxy,thats a matter of opinion because from what I saw in my original ending pre-EC the galaxy was fuqqqed up.

So what would 'your Shepard' have done besides using the Crucible? Unless your Shepard is actually not concerned with doing whatever it takes to save the galaxy.

My Shep is not going to become some Overlord or force mass Synthesis on the galaxy or kill of his allies who helped him get that far. Its f'd up but I refuse to go along with some punk ass Reaper. I should be able to win or lose depending on my galactic readiness if I refuse the brats offers. Too low, galaxy is destroyed,very high, galaxy is liberated but with very high casulties.

Yeah the Catalyst should have came at you on its knees and be like "you can kill us (destroy) or inprison us (control) or pardon us (synthesis) and we all go in peace." And you would of had it by the balls then you could fill like a man and pick a choice. It'll be like "please don't kill or inprison us, please pardon and we all go in peace, please" then you'll feel like a real renagade and end them Reapers.

[o Ventus]

Pitznik wrote...

I hope it won't happen. If something would ever happened to the ending to create some sort of super uber happy ending, make it some high EMS destroy or even new function of the Crucible. Throwing the Crucible away would be moronic, and replacing it with just normal conventional victory would be even worse.

I fail to see how an asspull plot device is somehow better than a legitimately possible means of victory.

At least, that's what I gathered from your post.

[Rommel49]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

I've already written my views on this matter in some of my previous posts in this thread, if you are interested you can find them in here.

But in a nutshell: yes, "this" and the previous cycle were so unique that they managed to delay the reaper attack and unreveal the reaper threat before they could arrive and take the galaxy by surpise. The reapers had to change plans because of that. It was also unique because they managed to put aside old quarrels and grudes, so they could work together on the ancient devise which they hoped to destroy the reapers.

They could get together a strike force great enough to escort this devise to the Citadell, and made it work... in the end they managed to stop the reapers, a force no one could stop for millions of years. Unique enough? I say, yes.

But no one before (even more advanced and in their own way unique civilizations, like the protheans) managed to destroy the reapers by conventional means (just take a look at all the cunning prothean initatives which failed). Even this cycle didn't have the technological advantage and knowlege to stop an ancient sentient armada of cyborg ships which collected knowledge and manipulated technological and social evolution in the galaxy since they have come to be (even before them the "leviathans" ruled the galaxy... the reapers predecessors). The reapers are quite thorough and resourseful, and damn they are powerful. 

So, yes I get that many people wished for a conventional victory and a more traditional - a bit hollywoodish if you ask me - approach to the endings, but I think this one works just as well, if not better than the ending you wish the story had.

Although I still think that a traditional ending would have ruined the whole - established - reaper myth in a whim and would have made Shep technically another GI Joe hero who defeats anything what is thrown at him with his left hand, then take his triumphant medal of honor and walk away with his damsel to the sunset... meh... I don't know if it would have been a better way to end a dark sci-fi saga like this. But it all comes down to taste and personal preferences in the end. 

The issue being that conventional victory was never stated as being completely impossible until the current installment; and even then it's still flat out contradicted by the codex. A big part of the reason previous cycles failed was due to the fact they were never able to present a united front to the enemy - the Reapers were always able to launch a surprise attack against the Citadel first, effectively decapitate the galactic government, etc. and keep the disparate parts of the galaxy isolated from one another. You kinda contradict yourself here - no prior cycle had managed to defeat the Reapers with the Crucible either. By contrast, prior cycles may well have had the total military power to conventionally beat the Reapers, but they would've been incapable of bringing it all to bear and would've been wiped out piecemeal... hell, this is the established Reaper MO.

The whole reason Sovereign had to work through pawns and hide its existence and purpose was because it wouldn't survive being presented with a united front. When it was left with no recourse but to directly assault the Citadel, even with the Geth backing it up? It didn't survive.

That lesson is reinforced in spades during ME2, during the various missions, debriefings and other little pieces of information picked up along the way. TIM's concern over the  Quarians preparing to go to war against the Geth since the Migrant Fleet would likely be needed against the Reapers, or that the only thing that really seems to bother TIM about the work to cure the genophage is the fact that he was in the dark about just how much progress the Krogan had actually made. It continued with things like Legion, being able to cooperate with the Geth and the revelation of just how big a faction the Geth really were, that the enemy force of the first installment was only a fraction of the whole and that Geth were a "mind the size of a galactic arm". At the time, from the second installment onward even the Rachnii Queen was committed to helping in the fight against the Reapers provided it survived long enough.

Knowing that the Reapers weren't too far off also informed a lot of my choices during the second installment, getting the squad together, having them work with one another regardless of any bad blood or old grudges, ensuring they were as ready as possible, etc. it was like a microcosm of the current state of the galaxy. At no point was it suggested we'd need space-magic bats.

I'm definitely inclined to think conventional victory was originally conceived of as an ending (and rightly so), with things like the Rachnii potentially having a bigger role than they ended up getting. They account for a piddly 100 MS in total (I mean, hell, the assorted Volus assets account for more), yet Hackett almost grudgingly admits that bringing the Rachnii into the fold was a good idea since they'd "know a thing or two about waging a galactic war".

Yet, the visible impact of all the work done to get those assets on the battlefield of Earth? Bupkiss. They may as well not exist. Totally invisible, don't matter except as a means to push up the magic number. It flies in the face of the entire narrative.

Regardless, as I quoted on the last page, even the codex states that it's theoretically possible to beat the Reapers with the right weapons, information and strategy since they have suffered casualties in the battles across the galaxy. They definitely perceive things like ICBMs and nukes as a major threat (and rightly so, as the math indicates) which is why they lock down missile silos, etc.

[David7204]

How about a perfect ending that is neither "press a button and kill all the Reapers" or "build a bunch of ships and kill all the Reapers." That would sure be nice. All of the suggestions I've seen in the past months have been horrible. The Crucible releases a super-virus, or a Reaper-shield killer, or destroys a reaper communication hub or some nonsense. Worse than the original ending.

For the most part, I agree. I don't think conventional assets made near enough of an impact on the ending. But that alone is not enough. Conventional forces can do 99.99% of the work, but something right at the end needs to tip the scales. That's the hard part.

[WhereEternityEnds]

Guys, guys....I have the perfect idea to solve everything.

MECHA REAPER. Shepard invokes the awesome power of a mecha reaper and it promptly destroys all the other regular reapers. There. Done.

[AlanC9]

Aaleel wrote...

I hope not, I just couldn't buy it at all, and it would make focusing on building the crucible all game pointless.

Honestly if the original ending allowed us to just walk up, use the crucible and kill all the reapers no one would have any trouble accepting that the crucible was the only way, or be concerned about conventional victory being possible.

This. We only get into the subject of conventional victory because some people can't handle the moral implications of the existing choices.

BTW, nice avatar.

[Dharvy]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

I hope not, I just couldn't buy it at all, and it would make focusing on building the crucible all game pointless.

Honestly if the original ending allowed us to just walk up, use the crucible and kill all the reapers no one would have any trouble accepting that the crucible was the only way, or be concerned about conventional victory being possible.

This. We only get into the subject of conventional victory because some people can't handle the moral implications of the existing choices.

BTW, nice avatar.

And some think just because you're talking with the Catalyst and its the "reaper overlord" that to make a choice is some kind of submission to the Reapers or to their ideology or something else utterly stupid. If anyone else other than the "reapers' boss" told you how it worked it wouldn't be all this confusion and it would a lot simpler. Bioware seemed to confuse most of their fans by having the Catalyst talk to them and tell you how your weapon work. They see it as the Catalyst choices versus simply how your weapon happens to work.

[A0170]

I'd love to see an ending with a conventional victory OP. But BW seems to be sticking with the Crucible idea. Just look at the implications of the Refuse ending for example. Again, if we go with Refuse and disregard the Crucible, we'd wind up losing the conventional war but give the next cycle a fighting chance. So why would Bioware go through all that time and trouble to put the Refuse ending there, only to put in even more time and effort just to refute it months later?

[Meltemph]

and a more traditional - a bit hollywoodish if you ask me - approach

As someone who doesnt consider "unconvention victory" a problem at all even in ME3(I just heavily dislike what direction they took the unconventional victory), I really need to know, cause I see this said alot on these boards. Where are all these movies(or TV) that have "conventional" victories in scifi?  It seems to me all hollywood cares about right now are twists. Honestly, I would be thrilled to see a "conventional victory scifi" becaue that would be truely unique.

Modifié par Meltemph, 01 septembre 2012 - 06:00 .

[Meltemph]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

I hope not, I just couldn't buy it at all, and it would make focusing on building the crucible all game pointless.

Honestly if the original ending allowed us to just walk up, use the crucible and kill all the reapers no one would have any trouble accepting that the crucible was the only way, or be concerned about conventional victory being possible.

This. We only get into the subject of conventional victory because some people can't handle the moral implications of the existing choices.

BTW, nice avatar.

I disagree. While people may say their problem is unconventional victroy, I think they mean they have a problem with THIS unconventional victory.  The crucible was not recieved well, so it only makes sense.  I mean honestly, you cant get much more unconventional then ME2, but you never saw these complaints.

[Dharvy]

Meltemph wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

I hope not, I just couldn't buy it at all, and it would make focusing on building the crucible all game pointless.

Honestly if the original ending allowed us to just walk up, use the crucible and kill all the reapers no one would have any trouble accepting that the crucible was the only way, or be concerned about conventional victory being possible.

This. We only get into the subject of conventional victory because some people can't handle the moral implications of the existing choices.

BTW, nice avatar.

I disagree. While people may say their problem is unconventional victroy, I think they mean they have a problem with THIS unconventional victory.  The crucible was not recieved well, so it only makes sense.  I mean honestly, you cant get much more unconventional then ME2, but you never saw these complaints.

I think its just because of the Catalyst is telling you. Say if EDI took you aside on earth in their final conversation and told you she scanned and Crucible and think that the Crucible can possibly destroy the Reapers but because most tech is Reaper based it will affectly destroy more than just the Reapers, possibly her and the Geth along with a lot of this galaxy's tech. Or that also the TIM may be on to something that the Crucible may also give you Control of the Reapers for a time. This would way heavily on you as you venture on your last mission. Then some Neutral VI or AI can further confirm as you reach the Crucible's controls. 

With something along them lines all this idiotic conventional victory talk would be minimal. In movies, stories, games, books, its almost always some unconventional way to defeat some near unstoppable enemy. The Crucibles is this stories unconventional way to stop the enemy.