304 réponses à ce sujet

[Rommel49]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I always thought a conventional victory would be possible.

Why?

Because of how the Reapers attack.

Through intermediaries.

In ME1 you had geth, krogan clones, and rachni as the bulk of the Reaper forces. In ME2 you had the Collectors. The Collectors weren't even an invasion force. They had a simple role (collect material to build a Reaper) and that's all they did. They pulled double duty of "Kill Shepard" because Reapers aren't stupid and can see a threat when one shows itself.

But they lost all that.

And even with their force Vigil tells you they shut off relays and systematically wiped out all life. That means they likely couldn't have taken the Prothean Empire in a stand up fight. They had to take the Citadel, shut off the relays, and slowly over centuries of conflict wipe them out.

By the end of ME2 and Arrival we'd stop their invasion plan, stopped their collecting plan, stopped their back-up invasion plan, and completely taken out their force of intermediaries.

All they had left was to give us a straight up fight. And dammit. Why couldn't we win that fight? No other cycle had such odds. They always attacked through agents, subterfuge, and by isolating and destroying hold-outs.

I've made the same observations. It was stated pretty clearly in ME1 that this is why Sovereign concealed its existence, hid its true nature and what its goals actually were while puppeteering the Geth, rather than simply assaulting the Citadel from the start. Because it wouldn't survive if presented with a united front.... and when it was left with no recourse except to assault the Citadel head-on, it didn't survive.

Dharvy wrote...

Me personally I won't mind if Refuse, with enough EMS could win the war, but the cost is the extinction or near extinction of upwards of 2 or more races, with the death toll to be catastrophic to the galaxy. So those who feel so morally conflicted could have their die trying to win feeling and the people more pragmatic and reasonable can still have their reasonable choices still. Also so the Refuse and win conventionally wouldn't become the better ending just a feel better ending.

But if Shepard was to live through a Refuse and ever go through a debrief and it gets out what s/he did that the war could have possibly been over however many years it takes to win conventionally, they'll probably become hated and hunted and have nightmares far greater than what they was having before with the dead crying "why didn't you save me?"

You keep trying to make this point, and it doesn't really work. It requires the assumption the Crucible/Catalyst is a pragmatic option as opposed to attempting a conventional victory - and it isn't necessarily. Nobody knows what it does, the whole purpose of trying to find the Catalyst was because it was supposedly what would've kept the Crucible from killing everybody.

It also requires the assumption that the Catalyst can actually be trusted, considering the fact that the little sociopathic Starchild basically turns out to be the main enemy. Realistically it's doubtful somebody would really be held accountable for not trusting the greatest mass-murderer in the galaxy on its RGB options, even assuming that information ever became known: "I figured the Reaper's AI Overlord was lying", "Good call".

Modifié par Rommel49, 01 septembre 2012 - 10:46 .

[MythicalStick]

I hope every fictional villian in history is paying attention and learning that the only thing they need to do to attain victory is to present the hero with the means to their destruction. Amazing how many are so easily mind-shtuped.

Emperor: "Strike me down with all your might, and then your journey to the dark side will be complete".

Luke: Oh, well jeez, can't do that that.

Mace Windu: Move out of the way, rookie.

[Foolsfolly]

Rommel49 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I always thought a conventional victory would be possible.

Why?

Because of how the Reapers attack.

Through intermediaries.

In ME1 you had geth, krogan clones, and rachni as the bulk of the Reaper forces. In ME2 you had the Collectors. The Collectors weren't even an invasion force. They had a simple role (collect material to build a Reaper) and that's all they did. They pulled double duty of "Kill Shepard" because Reapers aren't stupid and can see a threat when one shows itself.

But they lost all that.

And even with their force Vigil tells you they shut off relays and systematically wiped out all life. That means they likely couldn't have taken the Prothean Empire in a stand up fight. They had to take the Citadel, shut off the relays, and slowly over centuries of conflict wipe them out.

By the end of ME2 and Arrival we'd stop their invasion plan, stopped their collecting plan, stopped their back-up invasion plan, and completely taken out their force of intermediaries.

All they had left was to give us a straight up fight. And dammit. Why couldn't we win that fight? No other cycle had such odds. They always attacked through agents, subterfuge, and by isolating and destroying hold-outs.

I've made the same observations. It was stated pretty clearly in ME1 that this is why Sovereign concealed its existence, hid its true nature and what its goals actually were while puppeteering the Geth, rather than simply assaulting the Citadel from the start. Because it wouldn't survive if presented with a united front.... and when it was left with no recourse except to assault the Citadel head-on, it didn't survive.

The Battle of the Ciadel underlines that too. People often point out how many ships Soveriegn takes down but he actually just runs from the Relay to the Citadel. He doesn't stop once to fight and doesn't even fire off a shot until the Citadel's arms are open and he has to fight or sit there and die. And he takes down 3-4 crusiers while he sits there.

And that is a lot of men to loose. But Reapers know their limits. They can be defeated. They only can't now because we're told they can't.

[redBadger14]

Based on existing lore, its impossible for there to be a conventional victory against Reapers. So, no, you're wrong OP.

Nothing else to say that hasn't already been said.

[MacNasty]

I've said this before and I'll say it again... Until we are presented with further information, it is impossible to determine if we could win or not. People like to estimate the amount of Reapers. Well, they can't, because we don't know if any other cycles killed any. Or if many other cycles have killed many. We don't know the specifics of the fleet we currently have, or how much damage it takes for the rest of the ships to kill a Sovereign class Reaper. We don't know how many of the Reapers are at Earth either. Did I think it would be possible? Of course I did, I felt that idea was pretty much hammered into my head. We were different, they other cycles were unlucky, caught off guard, unable to stand together... Would I be happy if it was possible? Very much so. I was going to add more, but I rather forgot xD

[Rommel49]

redBadger14 wrote...

Based on existing lore, its impossible for there to be a conventional victory against Reapers. So, no, you're wrong OP.

Nothing else to say that hasn't already been said.

Sadly, you're the one that's mistaken. The existing information actually states the opposite, that a conventional victory against the Reapers is atleast theoretically possible. To repost it, right from the codex entry on Reaper Vulnerabilities:

"Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated"

[o Ventus]

redBadger14 wrote...

Based on existing lore, its impossible for there to be a conventional victory against Reapers. So, no, you're wrong OP.

Nothing else to say that hasn't already been said.

What an intellectual, information-laden post.

[Foolsfolly]

Rommel49 wrote...

redBadger14 wrote...

Based on existing lore, its impossible for there to be a conventional victory against Reapers. So, no, you're wrong OP.

Nothing else to say that hasn't already been said.

Sadly, you're the one that's mistaken. The existing information actually states the opposite, that a conventional victory against the Reapers is atleast theoretically possible. To repost it, right from the codex entry on Reaper Vulnerabilities:

"Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated"

If only we had.... some kind of ancient technology that showed their weaknesses.... or perhaps some sort of base, if you would, that was designed to create Reapers that we could mine for information. Or access to a 'dead' or 'disabled' Reaper so we could test their shields and copy their tech to even the odds a bit more.

And if only we'd been collecting this sort of tech and knowledge throughout the whole series so we had the tools and the time to use it against the Reapers.

Oh, well....

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I don't have the time right now to read the whole post, so I'll just say this: I agree with the topic title.  Refusal Victory. 

Make it happen, Bioware.

Modifié par Neverwinter_Knight77, 02 septembre 2012 - 12:42 .

[Rommel49]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Rommel49 wrote...

redBadger14 wrote...

Based on existing lore, its impossible for there to be a conventional victory against Reapers. So, no, you're wrong OP.

Nothing else to say that hasn't already been said.

Sadly, you're the one that's mistaken. The existing information actually states the opposite, that a conventional victory against the Reapers is atleast theoretically possible. To repost it, right from the codex entry on Reaper Vulnerabilities:

"Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated"

If only we had.... some kind of ancient technology that showed their weaknesses.... or perhaps some sort of base, if you would, that was designed to create Reapers that we could mine for information. Or access to a 'dead' or 'disabled' Reaper so we could test their shields and copy their tech to even the odds a bit more.

And if only we'd been collecting this sort of tech and knowledge throughout the whole series so we had the tools and the time to use it against the Reapers.

Oh, well....

All that stuff got lost in the mail along with a decent ending that made sense.

[redBadger14]

With the right technology, research, weapons etc. doesn't mean "conventional." ConventionAl would imply using what is currently at hand, which in the case of ME3, would make a conventional victory impossible. The Reapers aren't all going to die if we shoot at them enough.

If anything, that codex entry you quoted supports the use of advanced tech and research, namely the Crucible for instance, in order to defeat the Reapers. It in fact does not support a conventional victory, at least not one with the current tech, which again is what conventional is implying.

[MythicalStick]

R2D2 has found a weakness in the Reapers. It's ||CENSORED||. Who would have thunk it? Awesome.

[Rommel49]

redBadger14 wrote...

With the right technology, research, weapons etc. doesn't mean "conventional." ConventionAl would imply using what is currently at hand, which in the case of ME3, would make a conventional victory impossible. The Reapers aren't all going to die if we shoot at them enough.

If anything, that codex entry you quoted supports the use of advanced tech and research, namely the Crucible for instance, in order to defeat the Reapers. It in fact does not support a conventional victory, at least not one with the current tech, which again is what conventional is implying.

Incorrect, and it takes a lot of distortion to get there from the text. The fact is that it's unambiguously stated that the fact  the Reapers have taken casualties in the battles across the galaxy (by definition, accomplished using what is currently on hand) is what makes their defeat theoretically possible.

If it just said "victory is theoretically possible with the right research, development, etc." without mentioning Reaper casualties you'd have a point, however, words like "research" or "development" don't appear anywhere in the text as a stated condition for Reaper defeat being possible. The entry only mentions what has already been accomplished as the pretext for defeating the Reapers as being possible, nothing else.

[o Ventus]

redBadger14 wrote...

With the right technology, research, weapons etc. doesn't mean "conventional." ConventionAl would imply using what is currently at hand, which in the case of ME3, would make a conventional victory impossible. The Reapers aren't all going to die if we shoot at them enough.

...

No it doesn't.

[MacNasty]

redBadger14 wrote...

With the right technology, research, weapons etc. doesn't mean "conventional." ConventionAl would imply using what is currently at hand, which in the case of ME3, would make a conventional victory impossible. The Reapers aren't all going to die if we shoot at them enough.

If anything, that codex entry you quoted supports the use of advanced tech and research, namely the Crucible for instance, in order to defeat the Reapers. It in fact does not support a conventional victory, at least not one with the current tech, which again is what conventional is implying.

Conventional means fighting them in a war, without some sort of "Reaper off-switch" or uber-weapon. It doesn't mean we can't use technology we recover or advance in the war, it just means that we actually fight them, using strategy, tactics, and weapons. No Crucible used, no "DEM" as it is called. 

[garrusfan1]

I agree OP

[BlessedSoldier]

Ithurael wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

I hope it won't happen. If something would ever happened to the ending to create some sort of super uber happy ending, make it some high EMS destroy or even new function of the Crucible. Throwing the Crucible away would be moronic, and replacing it with just normal conventional victory would be even worse.

I am inclined to agree. The Crucible was THE big point of ME3. It drives the entire story arch. Then at the end you win without it? It doesn't add up.

If we find that the crucible was nothing more than a trap then ok - I can kinda get behind that I suppose. But still. Bioware wants to end Mass Effect 3 with RGB.

And it was a stupid point...

[Rip504]

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

 

OP Usually I'd be one to agree with those saying that I agree with all the others here in saying that a conventional victory is not possible, however I'm willing to at least hear you out, mainly because you haven't detailed an important piece of information,

How?

I'd like to bring up a handful of points set up by the lore of Mass Effect

1. You Mentioned the Leviathan's could bring galactic victory, the problem is that there's only 3 of them and anytime they have defeated a Reaper there has only been one alone, If they could outpower the reapers with just the 3 then they obviously wouldn't be in hiding for millions of years.

2. The Reapers still outnumber the sapient fleets 5 to 1 and that's not even subtracting the ships destroyed in the initial invasion, not to mention severly outpowered.

3. The Reapers aren't stupid, they have the knowledge of thousands of cultures, even if the fleets could take Earth not only would they sustain heavy losses but the Reaper forces outside the Sol System would know how to hurt them next, They would regroup outside the Arcturus relay which is the only relay that is connected to the Sol Relay as per the wikia info. The fleets would be bottlenecked coming out of the relay and would be slaughtered by the army of Reapers waiting there, The fleets took a heavy risk focusing every single force on Earth since they were THAT desperate to get the relay running.

4. Say conventional victory does happen, on what terms would they be? what losses would there be? and what would be the aftermath of the Galaxy?

5. What will the Reapers do when they stop Harvesting and start fighting an actual war? We have yet to see Reaper war tactics.

[Bacteriophage]

Forgive me if this point has been brought up before. I read the OP but just skimmed the rest.

Regaurding the EMS, let us not forget a source of unlimited war assets, the multiplayer promotions. A lot of people seem to ignore these or pohpoh the idea, but Bioware made a point of integrating the MP into the SP campaign by granting you +75 war assets every time you promote in multiplayer.

Now may I also draw attention to the war room computer. Starting at the initial low level, the computer in the war room gives odds of sucsess, initially at 0% then at "odds are low but measurable" (or somthing like that). At around 5000 EMS (I think they lowered it to around 3500 after the EC), the war room computer tells you that projections show odds of victory at 50%. And then it doesn't go higher than that.

I feel this is a minor absurdity. Not that the greatest level of assets you can have from doing only the SP campaine only get you 50/50 odds, but that the odds don't budge no matter how many assets you add to above that level. Playing the multiplayer can really expant the story experience by driving home the broader aspect of war that you kind of miss out on by being the 'tip of the spear". By engineering the direct integration of the two game modes, the SP validates the MP by giving it a tangible ingame effect... except that this currently has no effect on the story if you already have max war assets.

I use this to my own personal interpretation, though.

I use MP promotions to highlight the absurdity of the lack of 'military victory' option. Bioware, if you're reading this, understand that every time I promote in multiplayer, I am gently mocking you. It's my way of engaging with the game I love to play while dealing with an ending I find odious. It's not an official part of the game, but as my Reaper casualty count grows and my war assets expand, I feel that my personal headcanon reject option becomes more and more valid.

As of this post my N7 level is around 2600. Playing SP for the Laviathan content, I think my war assets are around 12,000. I am kicking Reaper ass.

[redBadger14]

@Ventus: Not a very intelligent reply. Back up your posts like the others or don't bother at all. Such a simple post without an addition of "here's why" and etc is just stupid. Can't be constructive to the thread? Then don't post such a useless reply please. Especially since "no it doesn't" does not at all disprove the core of my argument that conventional victory against the Reapers in ME3's current cycle is impossible.

@MacNasty/Rommel: Good points, I see what you both mean. Also I was a little vague in my description of conventional, so I apologise. I'm typing on my phone however. Rommel you nailed what conventional would imply, however I still don't see it being a possible victory. Lets look back to ME1 and the battle with Sovereign. That took most of the Alliance fleet and Citadel fleet to take him down, and even then they suffered heavy casualties as a result. Fast forward to ME3, you have Reaper forces outnumbering the Alliance and other Alien fleets 5 to 1, in addition to the Reapers launching a surprise attack on Earth costing countless Alliance men and resources, and that technology has not evolved all too much in a way that would expedite killing a Reaper. Add that all up and an all out conventional victory just cannot happen.

Now, yes, we can use advanced strategy and tactics, improved and concentrated firepower, and more to take down a whole bunch of Reapers certainly. But it wouldn't be long before the Reapers triumph. Don't forget they harvest lifeforms, and with that comes their knowledge, which in turn gives slight advantages to the Reapers, including possibly thwarting some military strategies. The Reapers have incredibly advanced and superior firepower that has not been fully researched and successfully replicated by the Council races, putting them at another disadvantage. Or, there has been no research progress made in armor or shielding that could successfully withstand consistent Reaper firepower, meaning that giant red blast is almost certain death or destruction.

I digress but this is why I don't see a conventional victory possible. Maybe it could be many cycles later after more research, but the current cycle no.

[Dav3VsTh3World]

Rip504 wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

3. The Reapers aren't stupid, they have the knowledge of thousands of cultures, even if the fleets could take Earth not only would they sustain heavy losses but the Reaper forces outside the Sol System would know how to hurt them next, They would regroup outside the Arcturus relay which is the only relay that is connected to the Sol Relay as per the wikia info. The fleets would be bottlenecked coming out of the relay and would be slaughtered by the army of Reapers waiting there, The fleets took a heavy risk focusing every single force on Earth since they were THAT desperate to get the relay running.

5. What will the Reapers do when they stop Harvesting and start fighting an actual war? We have yet to see Reaper war tactics.

The fact that the Reapers moved the Citadel to Earth where it can be strongly defended to prevent the fleets from combining it with the Crucible IS a war tactic.

Like I said the Reapers aren't stupid

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Why didn't they just turn the sun Super Nova and wipe out all the reapers in the Sol system.

[Foolsfolly]

DinoSteve wrote...

Why didn't they just turn the sun Super Nova and wipe out all the reapers in the Sol system.

Or detonate Relays? What was the point of Arrival if not to show Relays could be used as weapons?

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Foolsfolly wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

Why didn't they just turn the sun Super Nova and wipe out all the reapers in the Sol system.

Or detonate Relays? What was the point of Arrival if not to show Relays could be used as weapons?

Indeed, but it took a meteor to destroy it.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:14 .