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[vironblood]

The Paladin's normal melee attack inflicts more damage than expected. Basically, the target is hit twice (details below). The extra damage was previously assumed to be derived from a hidden modifier.

-Many thanks to peddroelmz for his input-


The Paladin can inflict melee damage by 3 means:

1) The normal melee (standard shield bash) inflicts 200% damage to Health/Shields/Barrier and 175% to Armor. This bonus damage comes from an extra (auto) application of the melee attack. This second application does only 75% damage to armor (100% against everything else). The second application does the same damage for both Cryo and Fire Shield evolutions. In game tests revealed rare instances where the second application did not inflict any damage.

Notes:
- Cryo Shield 50% armor weakening is bugged (as of patch 1.4), it does not provide any armor piercing (test below).
- Fire Shield causes the first damage application to be split in 50% damage on impact and 50% as DOT. This damage is doubled for armored targets (100% impact and 100% DOT)
- This melee has a force value of 600.
- Technical note: this melee is the internal heavy melee.

Possible explanation for the extra damage:
The paladin normal melee attack first applies the returned melee damage value (which is split in impact and DOT by Fire Shield evo) and then the actual melee damage is applied. This would explain the 0.75 modifier vs armor since Corlist' heavy melee damage tests found similar modifiers against armor. This would also explain why the second damage is not applied in instances where the paladin is staggered, since the melee animation is not completed only the returned melee damage is inflicted.

----------

Melee: Cryo vs Fire Shield (naked damage comparison):
- Health/Shields/Barrier
 800 vs 800 (600 impact + 200 DoT)
- Armor
 700 vs 1100 (700 impact + 400 DoT)

==========

2) Shield deployment does 150 base damage

Notes:
- bug: the DoT uses the base damage value of the shield bash (400) instead of its own value of 150.
- The Paladin also has a standard melee attack animation which can be triggered by failing a grab. This attack has the same 150 base damage.
- Shield deployment has a force value of 150.
- Technical note: internally, this is the normal (light) melee.

----------

Shield deployment: Cryo vs Fire Shield (naked damage comparison):
- Health/Shields/Barrier
 150 vs 350 (150 impact + 200 DoT)
- Armor
 150 vs 550 (150 impact + 400 DoT)

==========

3) Base melee damage returned when the shield is deployed is 400

Note:
- this damage can sometimes be applied even when the shield is not deployed, if the Paladin is staggered by a melee attack and the attacker interacts with the shield (ex meleeing a Brute in the claw).

----------

Melee damage returned when shield is deployed: Cryo vs Fire Shield (naked damage comparison):
- Health/Shields/Barrier
 400 vs 400 (200 impact + 200 DoT)
- Armor
 400 vs 800 (400 impact + 400 DoT)

==========

Number Tests (35% melee bonus from Shield Mastery)
Convention: 400*(1+sum melee bonuses) = K //normal melee damage with test modifiers (540)

----------

Cryo Shield 50% armor weakening test on Silver Ravager (redone for patch 1.4)

Damage after melee:
Observed 5400 - 4455 = 945
Calculated K + K*0.75 = 945 OK

Subsequent PaladinX (with EB V) shot on Ravager
Observed 726.817383
Expected 531.1*(1+0.175+0.25) - 30*0.5 = 741.8175 not ok
Calculated 531.1*(1+0.175+0.25) - 30 = 726.8175

Conclusion: Full penalty armor is applied.

----------

Normal melee - Cryo Shield evolution tests

Gold Cannibal health damage
Observed 2025 - 945 = 1080
Calculated K + K = 1080

Gold Brute armor damage
Observed 9000 - 8055 = 945
Calculated K + K*0.75 = 945

Silver Centurion shields damage
Observed 1125 - 45 = 1080
Calculated K + K = 1080

Gold Banshee barrier damage
Observed 10125 - 9045 = 1080
Calculated K + K = 1080

----------

Normal melee - Fire Shield evolution tests (observed damage after impact in paranthesis)

Gold Cannibal health damage
Observed 2025 - 945 = 1080; (2025 - 1215 = 810 impact)
Calculated K*0.5 + K + K*0.5 = 1080 (810 impact + 270 DoT)

Damage output for Gold Cannibal health:

Damage Received: 270.000000 // K*0.5 on impact
Damage Received: 540.000000 // K (extra damage from additonal auto melee)
Damage Received: 27.000000 // K*0.5 DOT
Damage Received: 27.000000
Damage Received: 27.000000
Damage Received: 27.000000
Damage Received: 27.000000
Damage Received: 27.000000
Damage Received: 27.000000
Damage Received: 27.000000
Damage Received: 27.000000
Damage Received: 27.000000


Gold Brute Armor damage
Observed 9000 - 7515 = 1485 (9000 - 8055 = 945 impact)
Calculated K + K*0.75 + K = 1485 (945 impact + 540 DoT)

Damage output for Gold Brute armor:

Damage Received: 540.000000 // K damage on impact
Damage Received: 405.000000 // K*0.75 (extra damage from additonal auto melee)
Damage Received: 54.000000 // K DOT
Damage Received: 54.000000
Damage Received: 54.000000
Damage Received: 54.000000
Damage Received: 54.000000
Damage Received: 54.000000
Damage Received: 54.000000
Damage Received: 54.000000
Damage Received: 54.000000
Damage Received: 54.000000


Gold Nemesis shields damage
Observed 1940 - 860 = 1080 (1940 - 1130 = 810 impact)
Calculated K*0.5 + K + K*0.5 = 1080 (810 impact + 270 DoT)

Gold Banshee barrier damage
Observed 10125 - 9045 = 1080 (10125 - 9315 = 810 impact)
Calculated K*0.5 + K + K*0.5 = 1080 (810 impact + 270 DoT)

----------

Shield deployment - Cryo Shield evolution tests

Silver Cannibal health damage
Observed 1350 = 1147.5 = 202.5
Calculated 150*(1+0.35) = 202.5

Silver Brute armor damage
Observed 7500 - 7295.5 = 202.5
Calculated 150*(1+0.35) = 202.5

----------

Shield deployment - Fire Shield evolution tests (observed damage after impact in paranthesis)

Gold Cannibal health damage
Observed 2025 - 1552.5 = 472.5 (2025 - 1822.5 = 202.5 impact)
Calculated 150*(1+0.35) + K*0.5 = 472.5 (202.5 impact + 270 DoT)

Gold Brute armor damage
Observed 9000 - 8257.5 = 742.5 (9000 - 8797.5 = 202.5 impact)
Calculated 150*(1+0.35) + K = 742.5 (202.5 impact + 540 DoT)

Gold Banshee barrier damage
Observed 10125 - 9652 = 473 (10125 - 9922 = 203 impact)
Calculated 150*(1+0.35) + K*0.5 = 472.5 (202.5 impact + 270 DoT)

Gold Nemesis shields damage
Observed 1940 - 1467 = 473 (1940 - 1737 = 203 impact)
Calculated 150*(1+0.35) + K*0.5 = 472.5 (202.5 impact + 270 DoT)

----------

Melee damage returned - Cryo Shield evolution tests

Silver Cannibal health damage
Observed 1350 - 810 = 540
Calculated K = 540

Silver Brute armor damage
Observed 7500 - 6960 = 540
Calculated K = 540

----------

Melee damage returned - Fire Shield evolution tests (observed damage after impact in paranthesis)

Gold Cannibal health damage
Observed 2025 - 1485 = 540 (2025 - 1755 = 270 impact)
Calculated K*0.5 + K*0.5 = 540 (270 impact + 270 DoT)

Gold Brute armor damage
Observed 9000 - 7920 = 1080 (9000 - 8460 = 540 impact)
Calculated K + K = 1080 (540 impact + 540 DoT)

Gold Banshee Barrier
Observed 10125 - 9585 = 540 (10125 - 9855 = 270 impact)
Calculated K*0.5 + K*0.5 = 540 (270 impact + 270 DoT)

Gold Assault Trooper Health
Observed 1687.5 - 1147.5 = 540 (1687.5 - 1417.5 = 270 impact)
Calculated K*0.5 + K*0.5 = 540 (270 impact + 270 DoT)

==========

Disclaimer: The number rounding done by the game for shields and barriers may cause a discrepancy of +/-1 when comparing results.

Update 9/6: Added Fire Shield test results. Made many changes for improved readability including damage analysis after peddroelmz' model.

Update 9/19: Reworked calculated damage to reflect the results observed with peddroelmz' bp technique. Moved the test results at the bottom of the OP.

Edit 9/23: Replaced the link to Corlist' melee preliminary results with his recently finished melee damage multipliers thread.

Edit 10/8: Patch 1.4 did not fix the Cryo shield armor weakening bug.

Modifié par vironblood, 08 octobre 2012 - 02:32 .

[Elecbender]

I have noticed the Paladin's melee doing far more than the coalesced.ini says which is 400. But this extra damage is nowhere to be found in the coalesced.ini .

[peddroelm]

vironblood wrote...
Note1: The melee seems to do only 87.5% damage to armor.

Normal melee should do * 1 damage vs armor ...
Heavy melee can have different modifier vs armor (so far I know geth heavy melee has *1.5 vs armor)

vironblood wrote...
Note2: The evolution 6 Cryo Shield Armor weakening effect does not apply to the Paladin's melee.

Armor DR does not effect melee attacks ... To test the armor weakening effect you would need to use a weapon that does not ignore armor ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 31 août 2012 - 05:58 .

[bunnylover]

vironblood wrote...
Note2: The evolution 6 Cryo Shield Armor weakening effect does not apply to the Paladin's melee.

Are you saying that this is totally broken or that the cryo debuff only works on Shield Deployment?  If so, I've been doing it wrong and I'm quite sad about it.

Clarity Edit:  Are you saying that using melee upon an enemy does not debuff them?
Are you saying that standing up your shield near enemies in range is the only way to debuff them?

Modifié par bunnylover, 31 août 2012 - 05:55 .

[vironblood]

Elecbender wrote...

I have noticed the Paladin's melee doing far more than the coalesced.ini says which is 400. But this extra damage is nowhere to be found in the coalesced.ini .

Indeed, the Paladin melee values from Coalesced are a little strange. The damage for the Coalesced light melee is applied to shield deployement. Probably they considered deploying the shield on a light melee action to be confusing so they changed that to be more in line with the melee behaviour on other characters.

Modifié par vironblood, 31 août 2012 - 06:20 .

[vironblood]

bunnylover wrote...

vironblood wrote...
Note2: The evolution 6 Cryo Shield Armor weakening effect does not apply to the Paladin's melee.

Are you saying that this is totally broken or that the cryo debuff only works on Shield Deployment?  If so, I've been doing it wrong and I'm quite sad about it.

I am saying that meleeing an armored target twice in a 5 seconds window did not make the second melee attack inflict more damage. I will edit that for more clarification.

[Elecbender]

Still 800 is a lot considering how fast the heavy melee is.

You can use 3 melees in the time it takes for a Batarian to use his.

[bunnylover]

Many thanks for the info, vironblood.

[vironblood]

peddroelmz wrote...

Normal melee should do * 1 damage vs armor ...
Heavy melee can have different modifier vs armor (so far I know geth heavy melee has *1.5 vs armor)

I cannot explain the 87.5% modifier in damage. I have killed several Brutes on Silver and Gold using melee and the damage was consistent with the modifier.

peddroelmz wrote...
Armor DR does not effect melee attacks ... To test the armor weakening effect you would need to use a weapon that does not ignore armor ...

You are right. I will edit my post to reflect this.

bunnylover wrote...

Many thanks for the info, vironblood.

Glad to be of help :happy:

Modifié par vironblood, 31 août 2012 - 06:19 .

[peddroelm]

vironblood wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

Normal melee should do * 1 damage vs armor ...
Heavy melee can have different modifier vs armor (so far I know geth heavy melee has *1.5 vs armor)

I cannot explain the 87.5% modifier in damage. I have killed several Brutes on Silver and Gold using melee and the damage was consistent with the modifier.

Nothing to explain - the one with 800 base damage is the "heavy melee" attack .. Heavy melee attacks can have a different multiplier than 1 vs armor ... (in the paladin's case apparently *0.875 ; geth get *1.5 vs armor)  
N7 Shadow heavy melee has *1 vs armor (can get it up to *1.5 with Sword Mastery)


Sheppard's heavy melee multiplier vs armor in SP was also bellow 1 for the classes I tested (inflitrator ?) ..Lets see if I can dig up that value .. *0.75 for SP infiltrator  ..This value is probably the same for the MP human inflitrator ...

The other attack should do *1 damage vs armor  however.. Light melee does not get multipliers vs defence types ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 31 août 2012 - 06:30 .

[vironblood]

peddroelmz wrote...

vironblood wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

Normal melee should do * 1 damage vs armor ...
Heavy melee can have different modifier vs armor (so far I know geth heavy melee has *1.5 vs armor)

I cannot explain the 87.5% modifier in damage. I have killed several Brutes on Silver and Gold using melee and the damage was consistent with the modifier.

Nothing to explain - the one with 800 base damage is the "heavy melee" attack .. Heavy melee attacks can have a different multiplier than 1 vs armor ... (in the paladin's case apparently *0.875 ; geth get *1.5 vs armor)  
N7 Shadow heavy melee has *1 vs armor (can get it up to *1.5 with Sword Mastery)


Sheppard's heavy melee multiplier vs armor in SP was also bellow 1 for the classes I tested (inflitrator ?) ..Lets see if I can dig up that value .. *0.75 for SP infiltrator  ..This value is probably the same for the MP human inflitrator ...

The other attack should do *1 damage vs armor  however.. Light melee does not get multipliers vs defence types ...

The melee and heavy melee damage are listed as doing 150 and 400 damage respectively, so I actually think the damage multiplier for the heavy melee is 175% vs Armor and 200% vs everything else. This is pure speculation though and I have not tested it against barriers because... well... you know

Modifié par vironblood, 31 août 2012 - 08:13 .

[Crimson.Wings]

Heavy melee and light melee? I thought the Paladin had only one shield bash attack? o_O

[vironblood]

Crimson.Wings wrote...

Heavy melee and light melee? I thought the Paladin had only one shield bash attack? o_O

I make no mention of light or heavy in the OP to avoid confusion. ITT heavy melee refers to his normal shield bash attack and light melee to his shield deployment. The confusion arises when trying to associate the internal damage numbers with in-game damage observations.

[Crimson.Wings]

vironblood wrote...

Crimson.Wings wrote...

Heavy melee and light melee? I thought the Paladin had only one shield bash attack? o_O

I make no mention of light or heavy in the OP to avoid confusion. ITT heavy melee refers to his normal shield bash attack and light melee to his shield deployment. The confusion arises when trying to associate the internal damage numbers with in-game damage observations.

Thanks for the clarification. :happy:

[Chriz Tah Fah]

Anyone think they can do a damage test for AP weapon mods? I've heard people say that using a AP mod makes ALL your shots to 65% damage and not just the shots that went through cover. If this is true then there are some real negatives to using an AP mod.

I've also heard about a glitch with AP AMMO where the AP aspect only applies to your highest level weapon (if you are using 2 weapons of differing level). If both weapons are the same level it is applied to your primary (if an assault rifle and a shotgun are used, the effects are only applied to the AR). This would mean that AP ammo is less useful than advertised.

[Ziegrif]

First thing that came to mind.
You went and meleed a brute?
FOR SCIENCE?!
Mad props man.
Your team must have loved that if you tested in a pug XD

[Tybo]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

Anyone think they can do a damage test for AP weapon mods? I've heard people say that using a AP mod makes ALL your shots to 65% damage and not just the shots that went through cover. If this is true then there are some real negatives to using an AP mod.

I've also heard about a glitch with AP AMMO where the AP aspect only applies to your highest level weapon (if you are using 2 weapons of differing level). If both weapons are the same level it is applied to your primary (if an assault rifle and a shotgun are used, the effects are only applied to the AR). This would mean that AP ammo is less useful than advertised.

The first is super easy to test, you can do it yourself.  I'm gonna assume you have a widow x.  Take a character with as little weapon damage bonus you as you have.  If the bonus is less than 5%, throw on an extended barrel, if not then don't.  Slap on an AP mod.  If you can one shot body shot a  silver assault trooper, then the damage is clearly not doing 35% less damage.  If it doesn't then you're right. (silver assault has 1125 health, widow x has 1083.8 damage).  Should be really easy to see if you care enough to test.

Second is a little more tricky and imo a valid concern.  I may actually think about figuring out a good test for that.


EDIT:  Thanks to vironblood for the test.  Interesting theory re:damage multiplier.  Though, if I'm reading your test correctly, then should it be a multiplier, you've only shown it to be 200% to health and 175% to armor.  Nothing is known about its multiplier on shields yet, then...and barriers (which would be difficult with those sync killers)

Modifié par tyhw, 31 août 2012 - 10:11 .

[corlist]

Chriz Tah Fah wrote...

I've also heard about a glitch with AP AMMO where the AP aspect only applies to your highest level weapon (if you are using 2 weapons of differing level). If both weapons are the same level it is applied to your primary (if an assault rifle and a shotgun are used, the effects are only applied to the AR). This would mean that AP ammo is less useful than advertised.

To avoid thread hijack I'll go through this real quick...

If AP ammo is gltiched for the weapon, both the piercing (reduction of armour DR) and penetration (going through cover) will not work. Ammo damage bonus still works.

See here to determine which weapon is the primary.

[Tankcommander]

FYI, it seems that the light melee does a heck of a lot of damage...I've specced mine as shown in my sig, and I can one shot most gold troopers. It also shields during the light melee animation as well, which can be handy.

[Eckswhyzed]

Tankcommander wrote...

FYI, it seems that the light melee does a heck of a lot of damage...I've specced mine as shown in my sig, and I can one shot most gold troopers. It also shields during the light melee animation as well, which can be handy.

ITT light melee is deploying the shield and heavy melee is tapping the button to swing the shield at an enemy.

[Tybo]

 I suspect that the multiplier is 1.75 for all protections.  I took my paladin out for a gold cerberus test.

Centurions have 1687.5 shields.  My melee, given your formula, should do:
400*(1+.65+.15(hydraulic joints))*1.25(stunner)*2=1800 damage.  This should easily strip the centurion's shields.  

However, in practice, it left them with 1 bar of shields left.  If it is:
400*(1+.65+.15)*1.25*1.75=1575 damage.  This is a possible value, given my test.

[vironblood]

tyhw wrote...

 I suspect that the multiplier is 1.75 for all protections.  I took my paladin out for a gold cerberus test.

Centurions have 1687.5 shields.  My melee, given your formula, should do:
400*(1+.65+.15(hydraulic joints))*1.25(stunner)*2=1800 damage.  This should easily strip the centurion's shields.  

However, in practice, it left them with 1 bar of shields left.  If it is:
400*(1+.65+.15)*1.25*1.75=1575 damage.  This is a possible value, given my test.

I tested against a Gold Centurion Shields:
1687.5HP - 187HP = 400*(1 + 0.35SM + 0.15HJ)*1.25MS*2
1687.5HP - 487HP = 400*(1 + 0.35SM + 0.15HJ)*2

SM+ShieldMastery, HJ=HydraulicJoints, MS=MeleeStunner

[Tybo]

Interesting, thanks. I'm not sure what happened with my test then. I'll have to try again, but I'm sure that I didn't one shot its shields like I should have...

If you don't mind my asking, how do you get exact damage numbers?  

Modifié par tyhw, 01 septembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[Kenadian]

Very nice, thanks for the info.

[Asebstos]

Is there a difference for damage v armor if you take the Cryo or Flame evolution?