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"The controversial, unbalanced narrative of Dragon Age 2"by Joystiq


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#1
Spedfrom

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Have a read through this piece on Dragon Age 2.

http://www.joystiq.c...f-dragon-age-2/ 

Personally,  I see the point in trying a different story approach, a more personal one that doesn't involve saving the world, after all this is an age where we've spents years of gaming saving various worlds.
The problem was that we were railroaded into a very specific plot ending, in order to serve the objectives laid out for future installments, therefore nullifying one of Bioware's main trademarks: the importance of our choices and how that affects the outcome of the story. Which in turn takes us to the whole debate over lack of player agency, how Hawke was just a silly pawn being thrown around Kirkwall and how Kirkwall itself, its inhabitants and our own characters hardly changed at all over the span of those 7 years. (Quick reference to the over-the-top Power-Rangers-like type of combat: STRIKE A POSE! :lol:)

#2
LinksOcarina

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I just read that article too. He is right about the enviornments being stale, (lets face it, they were) but I disagree with the narrative being disjointed, mainly because the narrative to me was designed to be a bit off because of Varric and his compulsive lying. A lot of things in the story of Dragon Age II were so against the grain of what you would consider a "fantasy" story, that I think the issue became one of not understanding the narrative, vs not caring for it.

Were choices important in Dragon Age II. Of course they were.The ending stayed the same, a war no one wanted, but to be fair, the ending always stays the same to some degree in a BioWare game. But in-game, choices mattered who was alive and dead, who got what they wanted and where the pawns were placed for the next act of the series. And if anything, the hidden brilliance of the Dragon Age II plot I think is the games greatest strength at this point, along with the friendship/rivalry system which I still maintain is the best morality-based system I have ever seen implemented.

#3
brushyourteeth

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Spedfrom wrote...

Personally,  I see the point in trying a different story approach, a more personal one that doesn't involve saving the world, after all this is an age where we've spents years of gaming saving various worlds.

Agree - the idea has merit. If you're going to have a focus on intimacy and character development, though, let us have intimacy and character development. I felt like I knew Morrigan and Alistair better by the middle of our first big quest together than I ever did any of the DAII companions, or even Hawke (and that was even after I watched a lot of their loved ones die. I mean, a lot.)

#4
coles4971

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LinksOcarina wrote...

I just read that article too. He is right about the enviornments being stale, (lets face it, they were) but I disagree with the narrative being disjointed, mainly because the narrative to me was designed to be a bit off because of Varric and his compulsive lying. A lot of things in the story of Dragon Age II were so against the grain of what you would consider a "fantasy" story, that I think the issue became one of not understanding the narrative, vs not caring for it.

Were choices important in Dragon Age II. Of course they were.The ending stayed the same, a war no one wanted, but to be fair, the ending always stays the same to some degree in a BioWare game. But in-game, choices mattered who was alive and dead, who got what they wanted and where the pawns were placed for the next act of the series. And if anything, the hidden brilliance of the Dragon Age II plot I think is the games greatest strength at this point, along with the friendship/rivalry system which I still maintain is the best morality-based system I have ever seen implemented.


Oh boy, here come the Varric excuses.

I like the guy, but each time I hear "it's ok for feature X of the game to be retarded because it's Varric telling the story", I like him a little less.

#5
Foolsfolly

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It was a "more personal story" only in half measures.

Yes. You have a family. Yes that family has an impact. But the story isn't so focused on Hawke that you can say it's really a personal story about Hawke.

If I have to define what the story's about it would be Mage/Templar. The first people you meet are Aveline and her Templar husband who regardless of your class has something against Bethany and yourself (if mage). This introduces you the conflict. Your first introduction to Kirkwall is the Gallows which reinforces the conflict. There's also more dialogue, quests, and just time in general devoted to the Templar/Mage argument than anything else.

Now it's not impossible for a personal story to be told within a Templar/Mage story. That's completely possible. I just think BioWare didn't go far enough to make it deeper. One problem is how there's no complexity with those involved in the story. Meredeth's crazy, Orsino's angry, Elthina's indecisive.

They never grow beyond that. When ****'s hit the fan in Act 3 you're railroaded into getting the same three quests (the first is always from Meredith the last two are either her or Orsino) if you support the Templars Orsino has nothing to say to you. There's no discussion about the mage point of view, or even what the man wants. To this day I have no idea what the man wanted. His actions and his words don't gel well together. He wants to protect his mages but allows a known blood mage serial killer to converse with him and skirt the law... why? Quentin's actions speak poorly on the people he's trying to protect.

More over there's no evidence to support that Quentin was a Circle Mage. He was an apostate blood mage. Helping track down and stop him HELPS the image of the Circle because it shows they're willing to police blood mages if there's evidence of maleficarum.

So yeah. We don't get nuanced characters to show the sides. Grace in particular is simply insane because insane is insane. Thrask and Cullen are decent Templars who aren't crazy evil rapists. And they both end up defying Meredith and their oaths for what they believe is right in the end. But you don't get a personal relationship with these people.

The people we do get personal relationships with? Anders a guy so pro-mage he goes terrorist and Fenris a man so anti-mage that cursing magic and mages are like 60% of his dialogue. These characters give their reasons and then they're set in stone. Fenris gets a little more nuanced if Friended but he's still decidedly anti-mage.

For this 'more personal' story to happen within this frame we needed stronger characters on both sides of the argument. We needed stronger characters on neither side. We needed complex relationships and multifaceted characters not just spewing the same rhetoric.

The sad thing is they did this within the game in Act 2. You had the Qunari headed by the Arishok a man torn between his emotions (rage at the societal injustices of Kirkwall, vengeance for the murders of his men, disgust at thieves and nobility) and his duty (recover the relic, it's not his job to enlighten bas, he cannot bring the qunari people to war lightly). On the side of Kirkwall you have the Viscount who has a balancing act of pleasing all the various sects in the city all while avoiding war while in the midst of private father-son dilemma.

Eventually the Viscount's personal life comes crashing down because he's put his public responsibilities above his personal life. When this happens he's so paralyzed and devastated that he now fails his public responsibilities. An utterly tragic character I grew to both admire and feel sorry for.

The Arishok's emotions eventually overrule his reason and his duty. He lashes out at the city that for years has tormented and abused him and his people. He starts what could easily be considered an act of war against Thedas. This ultimately proves his undoing (in Mark of the Assassin even Tallis says the Arishok overstepped his bounds...not in so many words but it's obvious he abandoned his duty).

Those were characters in conflict with themselves and each other. They were in a situation that was out of their control. And Hawke was caught in the middle. The Templar/Mage story never had that. The sides were one dimensional and the whole thing felt forced. And because they were so one dimensional I felt nothing for either side. When Meredith forces you to take a side I originally took neither side for that reason! I couldn't think of why I would. If given the option I'd have supported Aveline and helped the Kirkwall City Guard contain this crazy nonsense.

If the game had focused on characters in conflict with themselves and each other while trying to find battle lines in the coming war. All while we focus on Hawke rising to Champion (something else the game did miserably off-camera and for no discernible reason if you sell Isabela to the Arishok). Then it would have been a much better game.

Building your reputation, alliances with nobles, mages, templars, apostates and making enemies with those as well. All while rising in power all towards a focused ending that reflected your efforts throughout the game.

Yes.

Yes, I wanted that. We didn't get that. We got three dislocated stories (if you can call Act 1 a story) with some characters and themes carried over. Then when the credits start crawling all you know for certain is that there better be a DA3 because this was as unfinished of a story as you can make.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 01 septembre 2012 - 06:50 .


#6
EpicBoot2daFace

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Dragon Age 2 did not suffer because it didn't use the standard BioWare formula. The game suffered because there were a lot of bad decisions made and the game was pushed out the door too soon.

One of the things I liked about DA2 was how the story was told. One could argue that the story itself wasn't that interesting, but the way they told the story was well done, IMO,

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 01 septembre 2012 - 06:50 .


#7
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It's easy to see why Dragon Age 2 became such a divisive game, but love it or hate it, I'm happy that a big-budget role-playing game was so willing to experiment with narrative form.


And I wish the "big-budget role-playing game" had picked a different franchise to experiment with instead of gutting everything that made Dragon Age: Origins fantastic and successful to to cater to CoD fans while at the same time trying to cash in on the Dragon Age title.

But if wishes were poppies, we'd all be dreaming, right?

#8
Renmiri1

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[quote]joystiq wrote...

[quote]It's easy to see why Dragon Age 2 became such a divisive game, but love it or hate it, I'm happy that a big-budget role-playing game was so willing to experiment with narrative form.[/quote][quote]Faerunner wrote...

And I wish the "big-budget role-playing game" had picked a different franchise to experiment with instead of gutting everything that made Dragon Age: Origins fantastic and successful to to cater to CoD fans while at the same time trying to cash in on the Dragon Age title.

But if wishes were poppies, we'd all be dreaming, right?

[/quote]

I agree with joystiq. Would go further, I think DA2 succeeded in innovating a tired and repetitive trope.

But I also agree with you. Marketing it as DAO sequel was misleading and I can see why it would be frustrating to come expecting DAO and get DA2. Expecting world saving and getting world unravelling.. Expecting  a peaceful end to civil war and taking part in the launching of one.

To me it was awesome. To you, you would probably not buy the game.

Cheer up, apparently dA3 is back to the old formula.

#9
Spedfrom

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I have to say that I heavily agree with what Foolsfolly said. Shades of grey is much more interesting and complex than black and/or white.
In the game we were at all times forced to be either one thing or the other and most characters are the same. Granted, Cullen and Thrask aren't like that, but then again, you only have that on the templar side. Even Orsino shows himself to be what the templars say: blood mage turns into abomination.
Which, to me, is baffling, because in Tevinter you have ridiculous amounts of mages using blood magic left, right and center and they are in control! You've never heard anyone say that Tevinter is now abomination land. Also, when Danarius finally finds Fenris at The Hanged Man he never turns into an abomination even when about to face death at Fenris' hands. So, is Kirkwall such a ****ty place that blood mages can't avoid being turned into abominations? Not likely, because everything was seemingly done to push you into one of either sides.

#10
PounceTeazle

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Good story half told with a load of loose ends probably never told.
Good setting executed poorly (there could be a lot of hawk maneuvering political and making alliances, become vicount after the Qunari are defeated /leave, really rise to power.
What we got was an Hawk just riding the storm.
I am disapointed that the story leads to the beginning of an war?
No, I was dissapointed that AGAIN the advertised game was not what was delivered and a lot of good ideas where thrown out the window for flashy graphics and "power ranger" fighting style.
Good about DAO was that it had depth, bad about DA2 is that it sacrifices deth and has an Hawk just coasting along and fighting a lot.
And its made to turn my PC into an console gamestation.
The sad thing is they could have done better.
Where DAO had wit and story DA2 was mainstream fast paced battle, they could have done it without background story beside "you have to decide between killing a lot of mages/templars and have an annoying brother.
I am pessimistic about DA3, i think the suits have taken over the gamedesign.

#11
Renmiri1

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Samsom the failed Templar defines the situation best.

Mages are people like you and me but when they get backed into a corner they have options you and I don't have.


If you were backed into a corner, to be executed and seeing all your friends being massacred.. and you could take a few with you by succumbing to demons, wouldn't you ? Maybe not you, but I am not sure most of us would have the self control to accept death and not retaliate with all we got.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 01 septembre 2012 - 10:32 .


#12
PounceTeazle

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I have the feeling the Mages of Kirkwall are demon magnets, in DAO an whole circle was going up in flames and a lot of mages stayed sane... in Kirkwall right from the beginning every second mage turns into magehulk.....really...

#13
Renmiri1

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Do the Enigma of Kirkwall quest :P

There is an ancient demon in the bowels of Kirkwall sewers.. and the veil is very thin there. They are like on "demon central" there. Everyone is a bit loco in that town :devil:

Modifié par Renmiri1, 01 septembre 2012 - 10:42 .


#14
PounceTeazle

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Yes, totally understandable, The Templars, demon and bloodmage hunters extraordinaire have there headquarter for hundreds of years on top of a demon infested place and then that refugee from ferelden shows up and slaughters them all ....
Just saying...
I mean if i have mages who are supposed to be as stable as a pile of uranium i move them away from that?
DA2 is a game with great fundaments but so full of tiny holes in its story it feels like someone had a grand idea and then it was all halfbaked and tossed out to sales.
Baldurs gate had not half as good graphics and mechanics but a great storie making it awesome.
Bioware sacrificed fleshing out story to make it all flashy and console right (what console gamer wants to have a lot of story slowing down "fast paced combat with power ranger poses right?)
I do not hate DA2 it has a lot of good stuff but not like baldurs gate or DAO good story, thought through story)

#15
Foolsfolly

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Renmiri1 wrote...

Do the Enigma of Kirkwall quest :P

There is an ancient demon in the bowels of Kirkwall sewers.. and the veil is very thin there. They are like on "demon central" there. Everyone is a bit loco in that town :devil:


And hilariously the Templars know about it and still use the city to house a Circle.... a Circle where those blood magic using Magisters held their slaves. Those walls have seen such horrors over the centuries and despite knowing what that does to the Veil they STILL house mages there.

STILL.

Like for no reason other than wanting madness and destruction!

Which is another reason the whole situation feels so forced.

#16
Mr Fixit

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Foolsfolly wrote...

It was a "more personal story" only in half measures.

Yes. You have a family. Yes that family has an impact. But the story isn't so focused on Hawke that you can say it's really a personal story about Hawke.

If I have to define what the story's about it would be Mage/Templar. The first people you meet are Aveline and her Templar husband who regardless of your class has something against Bethany and yourself (if mage). This introduces you the conflict. Your first introduction to Kirkwall is the Gallows which reinforces the conflict. There's also more dialogue, quests, and just time in general devoted to the Templar/Mage argument than anything else.

Now it's not impossible for a personal story to be told within a Templar/Mage story. That's completely possible. I just think BioWare didn't go far enough to make it deeper. One problem is how there's no complexity with those involved in the story. Meredeth's crazy, Orsino's angry, Elthina's indecisive.

They never grow beyond that. When ****'s hit the fan in Act 3 you're railroaded into getting the same three quests (the first is always from Meredith the last two are either her or Orsino) if you support the Templars Orsino has nothing to say to you. There's no discussion about the mage point of view, or even what the man wants. To this day I have no idea what the man wanted. His actions and his words don't gel well together. He wants to protect his mages but allows a known blood mage serial killer to converse with him and skirt the law... why? Quentin's actions speak poorly on the people he's trying to protect.

More over there's no evidence to support that Quentin was a Circle Mage. He was an apostate blood mage. Helping track down and stop him HELPS the image of the Circle because it shows they're willing to police blood mages if there's evidence of maleficarum.

So yeah. We don't get nuanced characters to show the sides. Grace in particular is simply insane because insane is insane. Thrask and Cullen are decent Templars who aren't crazy evil rapists. And they both end up defying Meredith and their oaths for what they believe is right in the end. But you don't get a personal relationship with these people.

The people we do get personal relationships with? Anders a guy so pro-mage he goes terrorist and Fenris a man so anti-mage that cursing magic and mages are like 60% of his dialogue. These characters give their reasons and then they're set in stone. Fenris gets a little more nuanced if Friended but he's still decidedly anti-mage.

For this 'more personal' story to happen within this frame we needed stronger characters on both sides of the argument. We needed stronger characters on neither side. We needed complex relationships and multifaceted characters not just spewing the same rhetoric.

The sad thing is they did this within the game in Act 2. You had the Qunari headed by the Arishok a man torn between his emotions (rage at the societal injustices of Kirkwall, vengeance for the murders of his men, disgust at thieves and nobility) and his duty (recover the relic, it's not his job to enlighten bas, he cannot bring the qunari people to war lightly). On the side of Kirkwall you have the Viscount who has a balancing act of pleasing all the various sects in the city all while avoiding war while in the midst of private father-son dilemma.

Eventually the Viscount's personal life comes crashing down because he's put his public responsibilities above his personal life. When this happens he's so paralyzed and devastated that he now fails his public responsibilities. An utterly tragic character I grew to both admire and feel sorry for.

The Arishok's emotions eventually overrule his reason and his duty. He lashes out at the city that for years has tormented and abused him and his people. He starts what could easily be considered an act of war against Thedas. This ultimately proves his undoing (in Mark of the Assassin even Tallis says the Arishok overstepped his bounds...not in so many words but it's obvious he abandoned his duty).

Those were characters in conflict with themselves and each other. They were in a situation that was out of their control. And Hawke was caught in the middle. The Templar/Mage story never had that. The sides were one dimensional and the whole thing felt forced. And because they were so one dimensional I felt nothing for either side. When Meredith forces you to take a side I originally took neither side for that reason! I couldn't think of why I would. If given the option I'd have supported Aveline and helped the Kirkwall City Guard contain this crazy nonsense.

If the game had focused on characters in conflict with themselves and each other while trying to find battle lines in the coming war. All while we focus on Hawke rising to Champion (something else the game did miserably off-camera and for no discernible reason if you sell Isabela to the Arishok). Then it would have been a much better game.

Building your reputation, alliances with nobles, mages, templars, apostates and making enemies with those as well. All while rising in power all towards a focused ending that reflected your efforts throughout the game.

Yes.

Yes, I wanted that. We didn't get that. We got three dislocated stories (if you can call Act 1 a story) with some characters and themes carried over. Then when the credits start crawling all you know for certain is that there better be a DA3 because this was as unfinished of a story as you can make.


Clappity clap clap for the postPosted Image

Bolded underlined part reminds of something Faulkner said, and GRR Martin often quoted: "Human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about".

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 02 septembre 2012 - 12:45 .


#17
wsandista

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I think the changes in gameplay mechanics (voiced PC, how enemies functioned in combat, removal of non-combat skills. etc.) were bigger problems than the story told(which IMO wasn't done very well). I like that Bioware tried something new with the story, but I dislike what was implemented quite a bit.

#18
Foolsfolly

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wsandista wrote...

I think the changes in gameplay mechanics (voiced PC, how enemies functioned in combat, removal of non-combat skills. etc.) were bigger problems than the story told(which IMO wasn't done very well). I like that Bioware tried something new with the story, but I dislike what was implemented quite a bit.


Frankly.... most of BioWare's games have had either out-dated or just terrible combat (Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1). Their strength had always been their character work and storytelling. I know there was a BioWare formula that they over-used but damnit they were the only ones doing those stories and they did them well.

And those story and character moments overshadowed any technical, mechanic, or graphical problems BioWare games traditionally had.

So I'll always look at story, plot, and character problems harder than their gameplay problems.

I'm not saying DA2 had no gameplay problems. It does. But those problems (maps, ninja'ing enemies, no out-fitting companions in armor, etc. etc.) are well documented.

#19
wsandista

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Foolsfolly wrote...

Frankly.... most of BioWare's games have had either out-dated or just terrible combat (Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1). Their strength had always been their character work and storytelling. I know there was a BioWare formula that they over-used but damnit they were the only ones doing those stories and they did them well.


I always thought that Bioware's strength was letting me roleplay my character as I saw fit. DAO was the last game that let me do that and it seems that Bioware has no intention to do something like that again. I think that Bioware has made the same mistake as JRPGs. They have mistakenly come to the conclusion that Cinematics = good story telling because some games have managed to use them well. Judging from their last two single-player(not cointing ME3's multiplayer) games, this doesn't really seem to be working as well as they thought.

And those story and character moments overshadowed any technical, mechanic, or graphical problems BioWare games traditionally had.

So I'll always look at story, plot, and character problems harder than their gameplay problems.

I'm not saying DA2 had no gameplay problems. It does. But those problems (maps, ninja'ing enemies, no out-fitting companions in armor, etc. etc.) are well documented.


I thought that the gameplay in ME and DAO was quite good(never bothered with JE myself) and think they are a strong point for both games. I typically hate action combat in RPGs so that might be the reason I dislike ME2 a bit and have burning hate for DA2 and ME3.

#20
Foolsfolly

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I thought that the gameplay in ME and DAO was quite good


How? ME1 played like a 3D arcade shooter. It's like Asteroids with no multi-shot. You move around heedless of cover or safety against enemies whose only actions are screaming "Go, go, go" "I will destroy you," and running blindly firing at you until they get into melee range where they just club you death.

It was shoddy work. They reused maps to a terrible level, the barren lifeless worlds were poorly designed leading to frustrations beyond frustration with the Mako driving up sheer cliffs for 5 minutes a stop. There was no rewarding for headshots (thus character and player skill).

There was one good thing in the gameplay that the other games never captured again. And that was tech powers were useful. They were actually more useful than biotic powers (of which only Lift was worth a damn).

Otherwise you spammed Immunity, spammed Marksman, and backpedaled so krogan or geth wouldn't one-hit you to death with their melee strikes (on higher difficulties on the lower difficulties you never died unless it was from a Thresher Maw which never ever ever attacked from under ground in any way in which you could anticipate and evade and always destroyed the Mako in one direct hit).

#21
Tommyspa

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@Foolsfolly, As much as I like the first ME all of those things are worse than awful when looking back or playing it again. The only thing I think ME1 has over ME2 in the gameplay department is being able to use multiple abilities in a row bypassing the always cooldown.

#22
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[quote]wsandista wrote...

I always thought that Bioware's strength was letting me roleplay my character as I saw fit. DAO was the last game that let me do that and it seems that Bioware has no intention to do something like that again. I think that Bioware has made the same mistake as JRPGs. They have mistakenly come to the conclusion that Cinematics = good story telling because some games have managed to use them well. Judging from their last two single-player(not cointing ME3's multiplayer) games, this doesn't really seem to be working as well as they thought.

[quote]

This is exactly why I enjoyed DAO..and the problem I had with DA2..

I like playing certain jRPG, but play them for other reasons than I play a franchise like DA..Play TES and the Witcher for other reasons too and like them but those have their own fingerprint and recognision...

DA needs to have it's own identity which it created imho with DAO but took a rather blurry, mixed up course in DA2..I for one did not recognize a specific signature so to speak that makes it stand out. And as stated above, think that the way the cinematics were used in a way that made the game to story driven instead of an RP game.

Maybe they see that the experiment did indeed not work as they thought and go back to a more DAO kind of gameplayPosted Image.

#23
wsandista

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Foolsfolly wrote...

I thought that the gameplay in ME and DAO was quite good


How?


Success in combat was determined by character skill, not player skill.

#24
Foolsfolly

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wsandista wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I thought that the gameplay in ME and DAO was quite good


How?


Success in combat was determined by character skill, not player skill.


It was better because the reticule shook until you put 7 points into it? With unlimited ammo and enemies that run straight at you accuracy didn't count for much in that game. Neither did hitting them anywhere vital since a foot shot was just as deadly as a head shot.

#25
wsandista

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Foolsfolly wrote...

wsandista wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

I thought that the gameplay in ME and DAO was quite good


How?


Success in combat was determined by character skill, not player skill.


It was better because the reticule shook until you put 7 points into it?


I liked it better yes. Success in combat was determined by Shepard's skill at shooting, not my skill at clicking.