16 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwydion Navare]

Have you ever wanted to be an archer but were struck by the seeming dominance of ranged mages? Wanted to try an Elvish archer but thought melee was less convoluted or more interesting? Well, while archey is not the mathamatical diety of DAO I am happy to say it has some very nice perks and when properly done can make for a very effective combatant.

Some starting information: The best bows are pretty difinitively longbows (shocking right ) These are High AP weapons - and Ap is basically damage so dont be fooled into thinking they are low starting DPS. Also their damage is 50% dex and 50% STR and their to hit is based on dex, simple right. This makes them ideal for rogues- who not only are not built for the front lines but also can use the Lethality Talent (Cun for Damage instead of STR...you know where this is going right...) 

Now to the build: Racialy optimal for humans (three naturally useful skill points) but also fine for any race (two pts for both elves and Dwarves)

The best class is rogue...(though templar makes for wicked mage hunting thats another story.) The reason is that battlefield control, the halmark of the warrior talants is not useful to one at the back of the battle. And the specializations, on a general level, do not add as much. Berserkers, for example, gain DPS and health at the cost of stamina, while the archer should not take much damage and can get DPS from using Attack talents and rogue buffs more consistantly anyway)

Attributes: Now from the forum I can see the conventional wisdom is to make a Cunning based Rogue/Archer but this confuses me a little and here is why.  take 10 PTs in dex or Cun (with lethality) and this is what you get....
Dex: +10 to hit +5 damage and +10 DEF vs. Cun:+5damage and 5 AP...no contest right.
       Now I see how the bards song can change this but even so I find the results to be similar statistically without the nessecity of Bard, Mind you I love bard archers, but you see my point...

Here is how I build it : not mathamatically optimal perhaps but I believe versitile and effective.

RE: 62 LEVEL PTS, 20 Fade pts, 10 class, 4 race points, 2 tomes= 98 PTS
(with Elf ,class, and fade stats as base)
Str : 14+6=20 (for best armor, can be less but this is safe and not item dependant)
Dex: 18 +30=48 (36 is the best bow, It is worth pumping though late as a primary stat)
Con: 12 +4=16 (this is not optimal but the extra 20 HP is a buffer if somthing goes wrong...)
Wil: 18 +6=24 (pointless right?- 24 pts late game can allow sustains and two Arrows of slaying, not bad in my book)
Mag: 13+1=14 (its silly but it is an even number lol)
Cun: 19+17=36 (this will open any lock with the right talents + the damage is very nice to have)

(For Cun archer bards flip Cun and Dex, easy right)

Skills: now I always take Coersion and Combat Training - so does everyone right?- no need for more then one PT in poison though (a camp played can craft  and you can apply with only one PT)...the rest is up to you

Specializations: well here is where things get interesting. I like bard and ranger and here is why---

Bardic song provides nice Stat bonuses while distraction can make a DEX bard almost imune to the hits of one target that gets close...and captivating song can disable an entire army, leutenants included

Ranger: at the end of the chain the pet bear ideally can slam- drawing aggro almost instanly with a 60-8 damage providing A 500 Hp free tank that is 20 DPS at the same time, the Spider can screen the archer, webbing drawn aggro and the wolf can lowwer def of enemies, nice for archery.

Assasin is backstab based, yes their ar e plusses but hardly optimal ones. Duelist can be fun, and I can see it --it just strikes me as worse buff wise then bard and less versitile then ranger, I could be wrong though.

Lastly talants: nothing shocking here, archery talants (Scatershot, Arrow of Death, Critical hit being my favorite) Lethality, lockpicking and Spec talants. What I like about this method is that with 22 Base talants and a paltry 2 tomes you can max archey, specs, and pick locks without requiereing much work, many tomes or resorting to combat stealth (and heck a tank in the party + bard + pets should make stealth an unnessesary complication.

So the finished product: a character that can buff the party, Aoe stun with no FF in two ways, create its own tank,
Fire 2 massive damage arrows (120 damage each easy), has insane Defense (Rogue Def + 38 bonus +items)
and can beat Many melee fightes in dps from range- well with a rapid aim bow or ability . Not to bad in my book.

Oh and I do reqomend Falon'din's bow, it is superior to mage eye In dps-I did the math-and it fires faster, and thus does mor reliable damage.  Yes Far somthing or rather is beter but I'll be damned if I end that blacksmith....

Cheers to my fellow archers. And happy hunting all !

[Altharas]

Currently running through as an archer atm, i do agree with some points but i also disagree with others.



First off, i think you should only take 31 dex + 5 from the fade then pump cunning and nothing else. While archery does have a lower attack score, if you carry one mage with you, Heroic Offence will severly help, and since it doesn't cost alot of mana it's very useful early on until you get some proper +attack gear.



Since attack isn't a problem, Cunning is the definitive stat to go for, adding more ArP and thus more damage. Also, Bard should be a guaranteed pick as you stated, and the songs scale with cunning, another reason to pump it.



As the second spec i'd say Duelist > Ranger. In a 4man party, you SHOULD have a tank, who if built correctly will be able to keep all the enemies off of you, bar the creeps who survive arrow of slaying with a tiny bit of hp, which isn't much trouble regardless. Duelist adds a much needed 10 attack, and later on guaranteed crits which means you'll be pulling more DPS than ranger pets.



With regards to the bow, i think it's Far Song or go home. It's superior to every other bow you can use by a large margin, and the +10 attack means you won't be missing any attacks soon.



You don't have to end the blacksmith to get it btw, if you just don't talk to Valena in the castle then he offs himself.

[Gwydion Navare]

With regards to the bow, i think it's Far Song or go home. It's superior to every other bow you can use by a large margin, and the +10 attack means you won't be missing any attacks soon.

You don't have to end the blacksmith to get it btw, if you just don't talk to Valena in the castle then he offs himself.

Oh, I always knew the bow was better and massively...just did not like the role play cost, hate to see the man hang himself, but then I am a stickler about such things 

As to the cunning option I really do see it, its to hit vs damage and if you have the to hit the damage is better...for me though I would rather have the to hit naturally then get it through tricks

The thing about ranger fo me though is more the DPS of the pet then anyting, I know someone did the math on the forum and it really suprised me, I have always liked duelist but a 20 bonus to DPS is really nice, esp. with other perks. 

[Asugai2]

I also go for duelist. +10 Defense/Attack with low upkeep is golden on archer character. I agree with the dexterity route, more defense is always useful.

[Alesia_BH]

I'm pleased to see that there are others who appreciate the merits of Archery.

The apparent inadequacy of Archery in Dragon Age is really a function of perspective and norms of play rather than game mechanics. Most gamers don't mind seeing their hero fall in battle and measure power by damage output and kill percentages. By these metrics Archers can often fall behind other optimized builds in party play. But if you take defense seriously, Archers become formidable characters- especially Rogue Archers.

In many ways, the Dragon Age game mechanics are an Archers dream: you can use defilade, vanish ad infinitum, unload massive AOE damage when cornered via bombs, manage enemy positioning using traps, set damage traps in fall back positions as an additional safety valve, and summon an ally to run distraction or tank. Further, you can do massive single target damage, disable large groups from a far, and hinder enemies as they attempt to close. What more could an Archer ask for (aside, from poisoned arrow tips...) ? I'm currently doing a No Reload/No Raise Dead playthrough on Nightmare. And while I doubt that some of the NPCs will make it through the adventure, I'm fairly confident that my Archers (Leliana and the PC, Alia) will be left standing in the end. I've yet to see a well built Rogue Archer fall in combat.

With respect to the build debates, I'll simply note that the question "what build is optimal?" can not be answered in the general case. Context matters. Party membership (or lack thereof), game play objectives, mods, and tactical approach all condition the efficacy of build choices. An optimal build in some contexts can be far from in others.

Rather than attempting to answer the unanswerable, it would seem to make sense to help others attain a thorough understanding of the costs and benefits of each build so they can make a reasonable decision given their intended gaming context. On that front, there has already been some excellent work in this forum which should definitely be leveraged in this thread. The Hows and Whys of Archery http://social.biowar...66/index/328627 and Rogue Mechanics Explained http://social.biowar...66/index/243304 are both key references to my mind and should be required reading for contributors to this thread.

For the curious, I'm building Leliana as a high Cunning Bard and my PC, Alia, as a Dexterity Ranger/Duelist. I'll drop back by with a full comparison between the builds and additional tactical suggestions once my current play-through is complete.

For the moment, a few scattered thoughts...

-A Treatise on Archery should include battle plans and tactics in addition to character builds. The attributes of the character are significant, but how one uses the character is critical as well- arguably more so. I'd encourage all the Archers out there to suggest battle plans in addition to build recommendations.

-In solo play without the Dex fix, the Cunning build has some clear advantages- most of which were well documented in The Hows and Whys of Archery. In party play with Leliana or with the Dex Hotfix, the Dex build becomes tempting.

-While the Bard specialization is often viewed as indispensable, party players should remember that Leliana's song applies to allies (and I don't mean the one she sings in camp...).

- I agree that Far Song is the best bow in the unmodded game. With the Dex fix, using the Whitewood Bow on a Dex archer becomes an interesting choice.

-In The Hows and Whys of Archery, damage output was measured on a per shot basis. This obscures the potential benefits of the high dex Master Archer Rapid Shot. I'd like to see an empirical study of the damage output of a high dex Archer Rapid Shot barrage with a Cunning Bard ally over an appropriate time interval.

-When considering the Ranger Specialization, the tactical uses of an additional ally should not be ignored. The damage absorption capacity and DPS of the summons are amenable to quantitative analysis, but the qualitative benefits should be considered as well.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 26 décembre 2009 - 12:24 .

[Tiniuc]

I am a little biased about archery, because I've been using the better archery mod.

[fantasypisces]

So Alesia, you like keeping Leliana as an archer even if the PC is? I'm redoing my Archer currently (my first one was horrible) and I'm using leliana (simply because I love her) but I used respec mod to make her a dagger rogue, thought it would be redundant to have two archers because it is a support role.



Thinking of playing PC (archer, will be bard/ranger) Sten (don't know specialization yet) Leliana (daggers bard/duelist) and probably Wynne (healing/cc).

[Alesia_BH]

fantasypisces wrote...

So Alesia, you like keeping Leliana as an archer even if the PC is?

It makes sense given the objectives of my playthrough and the tactical approach which I intend to take. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for others.

Enemy tactics in Dragon Age often rely on drawing the party to a central position and bringing flanking fire into the center. One way of  thwarting that tactic is to hold position and maintain a comparative advantage fighting at range. That's the approach I intend to take. And with this method, another bow is more valuable than a pair of daggers.

In this approach, distance can usually be maintained using a combination of Earthquake, Scattershot, Blizzard, and Grease Traps. Glyphs, Claw Traps, Stonefist, and Shattering Shot can also be used to keep enemies in the Blizzard zone. Cone of Cold-> Critical Shot can be a first line of defense against those who make it out of the Blizzard. Major Incursions into the party occupied zone can be dealt with through the Entropy school, careful use of AOE effects, and dispersal.

I'm also playing No Reload/No Raise Dead. Allies that fall in battle will be considered dead, the death of the PC means the end of the adventure. (This strikes me as a relatively satisying and RP friendly way of finding tactical challenges in the Dragon Age world.) Rogue Archers are fairly easy to keep alive- even when solo. In the worse case scenario, I'll have Leliana and the PC stealthing and snipping in the endgame. I suspect that a mage with defensive buffs and a good staff would be a better partner for Leliana in the apocolyptic dynamic duo scenario but that's something for another playthrough (and thread:P).


In any event, focusing back in:  holding position and maintaing a comparative advantage at range is a viable strategy in Dragon age- one that is particularly suited for Archer PCs. Of course, the key tactical challenge is to maintain distance.

Now might be a good time for other Archers to share their methods for maintaining distance and managing enemy positioning on the battlefield. I'll provide an overview on the Blizzard based approach that I've been using when I get the chance.  

Best,

A.

 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 26 décembre 2009 - 12:21 .

[fantasypisces]

Right on. Sounds interesting. So if a companion dies, you don't use them anymore? Fun way to play it.

[Alesia_BH]

fantasypisces wrote...

Right on. Sounds interesting. So if a companion dies, you don't use them anymore? Fun way to play it.

Yup. And if the PC dies, I start a new game.

It is a fun way to play. Autoresurection was one of the primary means by which Bioware stacked the deck in favor of the player and preserved the storyline. This was an eminently reasonable decision given the games target audience, however, it does severely lessen the tactical challenge. Soloing with suboptimal characters is one way of finding challenges for tactical gamers, but it has RP drawbacks. No Reload/No Raise Dead play is an alternate solution.

I'm documenting my characters adventure in the No Reload Challenge Thread. Regrettably, that thread was started in the Official Campaign Forum rather than this one so you'd have to go over there to find it. Though I'm reluctant to usurp Agni108' s role as the No Reload Challenge OP, I may start a new No Reload/No Raise Dead Challenge thread in this forum. Regardless of the location, you're welcome to join and share your characters adventure as well.

Anyhoo, we're hijacking the archery thread now aren't we?

Back on topic: No Reload/No Raise dead play is only relevant here in one sense- it makes the defensive and tactical benefits of Archery readily apparent. 

 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 26 décembre 2009 - 01:45 .

[Asugai2]

How high damage would a Dexterity rogue Archer have, with the best equipment, at the end of the game? Also, would you recommend Harvest Festival Ring or Keys to the City? I'm wondering about that +4 attack.

[sinosleep]

Asugai2 wrote...

How high damage would a Dexterity rogue Archer have, with the best equipment, at the end of the game? Also, would you recommend Harvest Festival Ring or Keys to the City? I'm wondering about that +4 attack.

Why not wear them both? That's what my current avatar is wearing. Felon's coat, silverhammer's tackmasters, red jenny's seekers, the long sight, keys to the city, festival ring, using the farsong bow. I've had a blast playing an archer so far and have 80 dex and 40 cun with the attribute bonuses from all the equipment taken into account. Regular hits do around 45 damage, but I crit early and often for somewhere in the range of 70-80. Arrow of slaying varies from 250-500. I'm lvl 17 have done 40% of party damage, and have an 81% hitrate.

I chose to go with a dex build because from what I gathered from the big archery thread the difference between say a 30 point boost to dex and a 30 point boost to cun was far more beneficial if you put it into the dex. The cun modifier on song of courage is so small that it's easily out done by the attack rating provided by dex (keep in mind I still run the song cause the boost from 40 cunning is still nice) and with a dex build you also don't have to rely on other party member's buffs (which I have ALWAYS loathed doing). The other reason I went with dex is that a lot of people say that an advantage of a cunning build is all the points you save from lock picking and coercion. Well, if you don't put any points into cunning or coersion, even if you put every last point into cunning you ARE going to fail some early persuasion checks that I don't like missing. For instance, everything in lothering and redcliffe if you do those early.

But hey I'm no expert, I'm just relaying the choices I made and why I made them. Like I said, I've had a blast with my current playthrough as a rogue archer leading an all melee party composed of Sten, dog, and Alistair.

Modifié par sinosleep, 26 décembre 2009 - 02:55 .

[Gwydion Navare]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Enemy tactics in Dragon Age often rely on drawing the party to a central position and bringing flanking fire into the center. One way of  thwarting that tactic is to hold position and maintain a comparative advantage fighting at range. That's the approach I intend to take. And with this method, another bow is more valuable than a pair of daggers.

In this approach, distance can usually be maintained using a combination of Earthquake, Scattershot, Blizzard, and Grease Traps. Glyphs, Claw Traps, Stonefist, and Shattering Shot can also be used to keep enemies in the Blizzard zone. Cone of Cold-> Critical Shot can be a first line of defense against those who make it out of the Blizzard. Major Incursions into the party occupied zone can be dealt with through the Entropy school, careful use of AOE effect

This   

Now I dont know the math on rapd shot but it it increases fire rate by 30% mechanically. You do lose crits though.... I'll look into that more for sure.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Tactics:
My archer also plays with Liliana as a bard/ranger and then I use Morrigan and Wynne. The two ranger pets are expendible and take aggro and I can simulcast Earthquake and blizard ( two aoe stun checks)-Pair that with tempest for the storm and the results are pretty awsome The archers take the bosses/ hard targets with arrows of slaying and then scatershot/ crit shot as needed. Really my tactics are not specially intricate...I do like two bards as one can do stamina/mana rgen while the other boosts combat, esp with a ranged/ mage heavy party. 

[Ultrazennn]

I have just about this exact build on one of my playthroughs, I was a bit more min/max is all.  I put nothing into con, and 22 into STR for an armor choice I wanted.  Highely effective and a lot of fun to play.

I too am in the high cunning boat, especially as a main character, as it effects soooo many things that are awesome for a main character.  Really effective bard songs, can talk anyone into anything, open any lock, etc, great main character and highly underapreciated I think.

[Alesia_BH]

Gwydion Navare wrote...

My archer also plays with Liliana as a bard/ranger and then I use Morrigan and Wynne. The two ranger pets are expendible and take aggro. 

Back at you Gwydion...

I'm using the exact same party: Leliana, Morrigan, Wynne, and two pets. But you probably inferred that from the spells I mentioned didn't you?

It's interesting that we converged on the same solution, but not surprising. Once you select an Archer and commit to building a party wide comparative advantage at range fighting the rest follows pretty quickly- including the Blizzard based battle plan.

I may cut a video of my variant of the Blizzard/Ranged strategy. Some might find it interesting and I'd be curious to hear feedback. 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 26 décembre 2009 - 11:59 .

[Alesia_BH]

sinosleep wrote...
 I've had a blast playing an archer so far and have 80 dex and 40 cun with the attribute bonuses from all the equipment taken into account. Regular hits do around 45 damage, but I crit early and often for somewhere in the range of 70-80. Arrow of slaying varies from 250-500. I'm lvl 17 have done 40% of party damage, and have an 81% hitrate.

Sounds like you've built a solid Archer  Sinosleep. Congrats. I'm glad you are having fun with your character.

The other reason I went with dex is that a lot of people say that an advantage of a cunning build is all the points you save from lock picking and coercion. Well, if you don't put any points into cunning or coersion, even if you put every last point into cunning you ARE going to fail some early persuasion checks that I don't like missing. For instance, everything in lothering and redcliffe if you do those early.

That's an excellent point. Parts of the Cunning build argument reflected an implicit solo/endgame bias- something which often happens in optimal build analyses. Understandable -and defensible- but something which should be understood for what it is. As a practical matter though, skipping Lockpicking and Coercion will have implications through much of the game if you aren't overlevelled.

But hey I'm no expert, I'm just relaying the choices I made and why I made them.

Makes perfect sense Sinosleep. Personally, I'd be interested in hearing more Archers post their builds with justifications and background information. A sizable sample of different opinions would help people understand the pros and cons and select the build that suits their needs.

Like I said, I've had a blast with my current playthrough as a rogue archer

And that -to my mind- is ultimately the best way to judge a build. "Power" -however defined- is ultimately a means to the end of enjoying your gameplay experience. What matters is whether the build serves that end.

[Gwydion Navare]

Asugai2 wrote...

How high damage would a Dexterity rogue Archer have, with the best equipment, at the end of the game? Also, would you recommend Harvest Festival Ring or Keys to the City? I'm wondering about that +4 attack.

That gave me a though on rings...What do you all think of the imperium rings, I tend to use them at the end myself. Its a shame Dawn is so late in the game. Se la vi I guess.