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If Reapers are made in the likeness of the Leviathan, then why was there a human reaper in ME2?


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#51
comrade gando

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Garrus is my Shepard wrote...

 Didn't Patrick Weekes once say (I think in a fan interview at PAX) that originally the suicide mission was supposed to show all the stages of a Reaper construction, from the core to cuttlefish shell, but it was cut for time?



oh for the love of ass this cut for time nonsense is just straight up damaging this game. Damaging it! Normally I'd say just hold it back "until it's ready" like blizzard does or something, take your time, do it right. but of course with EA in charge, ****'s gonna go downhill real fast. after all they're all about rushing everything out the door and scamming innocent players out of their hard earned cash. lol

#52
Dusen

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A logical answer as to why there isn't a very large variety of Reaper designs in the cutscene at the end of ME2 is quite possibly because they didn't want to have to design 1000s of different ships for that one cutscene. Four or five would be enough to give the illusion that there are hundreds of different designs. In ME3 though, there are only two major Reaper designs.

Also, the reason why this question continuously gets posted is quite simple, and it's because Bioware neglected to explain much of anything in the actual game. They for some reason think that it's acceptible to post important lore points on blogs and twitter, hence why no one could figure out what happened to whatshername the reporter, or why all Reapers suddenly look the same, yet the human Reaper was surprisingly distinct from its cousins.

#53
Evo_9

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Barnzy wrote...

corkey sweet wrote...

iSousek wrote...

They were created in their image. That is the outside. But the "essence" of every Reaper is of the harvested species. That is the inside.


i think he is asking why the reaper looked like a human and not a Leviathan. which is a legit question. Since in Leviathan it says all reapers are created in the image of Harbinger.


Thats already been answered, that human reaper was to be "core" for a capital ship reaper. Mac Walters has confirmed this:
www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/04/21/mass-effect-a-q-amp-a-for-hardcore-fans.aspx


If that was the case why didnt they make it clear in the game?? 

How many times do you see directors make up crap to explain major plots that dont make sense in the movies. NEVER and if they did they would be crucified in the reviews.  

Relying on a statement from a biowre employee is NOT how a story should be told.

They are just making things up to fit their abomination of a story.

Modifié par Evo_9, 02 septembre 2012 - 12:23 .


#54
Barnzy

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Evo_9 wrote...

Barnzy wrote...

corkey sweet wrote...

iSousek wrote...

They were created in their image. That is the outside. But the "essence" of every Reaper is of the harvested species. That is the inside.


i think he is asking why the reaper looked like a human and not a Leviathan. which is a legit question. Since in Leviathan it says all reapers are created in the image of Harbinger.


Thats already been answered, that human reaper was to be "core" for a capital ship reaper. Mac Walters has confirmed this:
www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/04/21/mass-effect-a-q-amp-a-for-hardcore-fans.aspx


If that was the case why didnt they make it clear in the game?? 

How many times do you see directors make up crap to explain major plots that dont make sense in the movies. NEVER and if they did they would be crucified in the reviews.  

Relying on a statement from a biowre employee is NOT how a story should be told.

They are just making things up to fit their abomination of a story.


Here's your answer as to why it wasn't in game, if this is true:

Garrus is my Shepard wrote...

 Didn't Patrick Weekes once
say (I think in a fan interview at PAX) that originally the suicide
mission was supposed to show all the stages of a Reaper construction,
from the core to cuttlefish shell, but it was cut for time?



#55
TheCrazyHobo

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Barnzy wrote...

I will acknowledge that they retconned the size of them, considering most are 2km.

But the fact that there are, however, multiple reapers of the same type does suggest that bioware did intend for there to be, at least, some reapers that look the same, much like we see in ME3. The fact that this reaper type circled appears as well in ME3 as a hologram in the N7  cerberus lab mission only further proves that this reaper varient was not retconned.

As for the human reaper and the reaper core, in an earlier post i displayed the core of the Derilict Reaper, whose core looked much like a different species. I beleive that the Human Reaper was always intented to be the "core" of a reaper, and not a full reaper itself. Afterall, looking at that ME2 cutscene clip, how many reapers there look completely alien and don't look like they have cuttlefish like shells?


Well, honestly we can only see about 10 Reapers in the picture as most are either hidden by shadows or green smudges.  I personally see about six different variants including the Harbinger model.  Also, I generally rule out the fact that these Reapers are Troop Transport or Processor just becasue they seem to be the Sentient Dreadnaught type.  

Personally, when I first saw the cut scene at the end of 2, I always thought that the Reapers made more than one Reaper per cycle and species, hence why there could be multiple versions of the same model.  

Also, the Reaper shown in the N7 mission always seemed more like an easter egg.  I don't remember the dialogue spoken there and it is never mentioned again. 

#56
Garrus is my Shepard

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comrade gando wrote...

Garrus is my Shepard wrote...

 Didn't Patrick Weekes once say (I think in a fan interview at PAX) that originally the suicide mission was supposed to show all the stages of a Reaper construction, from the core to cuttlefish shell, but it was cut for time?



oh for the love of ass this cut for time nonsense is just straight up damaging this game. Damaging it! Normally I'd say just hold it back "until it's ready" like blizzard does or something, take your time, do it right. but of course with EA in charge, ****'s gonna go downhill real fast. after all they're all about rushing everything out the door and scamming innocent players out of their hard earned cash. lol


Here's a link to the interview:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234

#57
Barnzy

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TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Barnzy wrote...

I will acknowledge that they retconned the size of them, considering most are 2km.

But the fact that there are, however, multiple reapers of the same type does suggest that bioware did intend for there to be, at least, some reapers that look the same, much like we see in ME3. The fact that this reaper type circled appears as well in ME3 as a hologram in the N7  cerberus lab mission only further proves that this reaper varient was not retconned.

As for the human reaper and the reaper core, in an earlier post i displayed the core of the Derilict Reaper, whose core looked much like a different species. I beleive that the Human Reaper was always intented to be the "core" of a reaper, and not a full reaper itself. Afterall, looking at that ME2 cutscene clip, how many reapers there look completely alien and don't look like they have cuttlefish like shells?


Well, honestly we can only see about 10 Reapers in the picture as most are either hidden by shadows or green smudges.  I personally see about six different variants including the Harbinger model.  Also, I generally rule out the fact that these Reapers are Troop Transport or Processor just becasue they seem to be the Sentient Dreadnaught type.  

Personally, when I first saw the cut scene at the end of 2, I always thought that the Reapers made more than one Reaper per cycle and species, hence why there could be multiple versions of the same model.  

Also, the Reaper shown in the N7 mission always seemed more like an easter egg.  I don't remember the dialogue spoken there and it is never mentioned again. 


I guess we shall have to agree to disagree ;). I would agree with you that there are more varients here than mentioned in ME3, but only a few more (6 is probably about right including harbinger). Perhaps bioware originally planned for there to be more than the 4 reaper varients + harbinger they used in ME3. But none the less, there are multiple "clones" of the same reaper varients, all of which have a cuttleshell like design. Unless the reapers only reaped cuttlefish up until our cycle, i'd also say that the human reaper was going to be a reaper "core", as Mac has confirmed.

As for the Easter egg idea, I don't buy it. The fact that its in the game means that this reaper varient wasn't retconned. For the N7 mission, i remember i took liara with me when i discovered this. I believe her words were "Its certainly of reaper design" or something like that, i'd have to replay it to see.

#58
Evo_9

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Barnzy wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

Barnzy wrote...

corkey sweet wrote...

iSousek wrote...

They were created in their image. That is the outside. But the "essence" of every Reaper is of the harvested species. That is the inside.


i think he is asking why the reaper looked like a human and not a Leviathan. which is a legit question. Since in Leviathan it says all reapers are created in the image of Harbinger.


Thats already been answered, that human reaper was to be "core" for a capital ship reaper. Mac Walters has confirmed this:
www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/04/21/mass-effect-a-q-amp-a-for-hardcore-fans.aspx


If that was the case why didnt they make it clear in the game?? 

How many times do you see directors make up crap to explain major plots that dont make sense in the movies. NEVER and if they did they would be crucified in the reviews.  

Relying on a statement from a biowre employee is NOT how a story should be told.

They are just making things up to fit their abomination of a story.


Here's your answer as to why it wasn't in game, if this is true:

Garrus is my Shepard wrote...

 Didn't Patrick Weekes once
say (I think in a fan interview at PAX) that originally the suicide
mission was supposed to show all the stages of a Reaper construction,
from the core to cuttlefish shell, but it was cut for time?




If this is the case then i love how bioware think.

Yeah lets include a useless character like jacob and complete his story first....

as for the reaper story? yeah noone cares lets just cut that noone will notice.

#59
Barnzy

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Garrus is my Shepard wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

Garrus is my Shepard wrote...

 Didn't Patrick Weekes once say (I think in a fan interview at PAX) that originally the suicide mission was supposed to show all the stages of a Reaper construction, from the core to cuttlefish shell, but it was cut for time?



oh for the love of ass this cut for time nonsense is just straight up damaging this game. Damaging it! Normally I'd say just hold it back "until it's ready" like blizzard does or something, take your time, do it right. but of course with EA in charge, ****'s gonna go downhill real fast. after all they're all about rushing everything out the door and scamming innocent players out of their hard earned cash. lol


Here's a link to the interview:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234


Thank you! It also answers what happened to the whole Rachni storyline.

#60
TheCrazyHobo

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Barnzy wrote...

I guess we shall have to agree to disagree ;). I would agree with you that there are more varients here than mentioned in ME3, but only a few more (6 is probably about right including harbinger). Perhaps bioware originally planned for there to be more than the 4 reaper varients + harbinger they used in ME3. But none the less, there are multiple "clones" of the same reaper varients, all of which have a cuttleshell like design. Unless the reapers only reaped cuttlefish up until our cycle, i'd also say that the human reaper was going to be a reaper "core", as Mac has confirmed.

As for the Easter egg idea, I don't buy it. The fact that its in the game means that this reaper varient wasn't retconned. For the N7 mission, i remember i took liara with me when i discovered this. I believe her words were "Its certainly of reaper design" or something like that, i'd have to replay it to see.


Though there are similarities, none of the models in that scene be a "Levithan" in design so saying that they continually reaped "Cuttlefish" is unnecessary.  Though I do not mind or disagree with the idea of the proto-reaper being a "core," I just wished they would have been shown it in game.  

As for the N7 mission, I am not so sure what the point of the hologram was as I don't recall the exact dialogue.  However, Mass Effect 3 was full of fun little easter eggs that I just lumped it in with it.  Easter Egg example: Garrus being able to out-calibrate Legion.  

It is also refreshing that one can still have a civilized discussion on the BSN.  It is also refreshing to have a debate with someone who actually presents evidence!

#61
Barnzy

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TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Barnzy wrote...

I guess we shall have to agree to disagree ;). I would agree with you that there are more varients here than mentioned in ME3, but only a few more (6 is probably about right including harbinger). Perhaps bioware originally planned for there to be more than the 4 reaper varients + harbinger they used in ME3. But none the less, there are multiple "clones" of the same reaper varients, all of which have a cuttleshell like design. Unless the reapers only reaped cuttlefish up until our cycle, i'd also say that the human reaper was going to be a reaper "core", as Mac has confirmed.

As for the Easter egg idea, I don't buy it. The fact that its in the game means that this reaper varient wasn't retconned. For the N7 mission, i remember i took liara with me when i discovered this. I believe her words were "Its certainly of reaper design" or something like that, i'd have to replay it to see.


Though there are similarities, none of the models in that scene be a "Levithan" in design so saying that they continually reaped "Cuttlefish" is unnecessary.  Though I do not mind or disagree with the idea of the proto-reaper being a "core," I just wished they would have been shown it in game.  

As for the N7 mission, I am not so sure what the point of the hologram was as I don't recall the exact dialogue.  However, Mass Effect 3 was full of fun little easter eggs that I just lumped it in with it.  Easter Egg example: Garrus being able to out-calibrate Legion.  

It is also refreshing that one can still have a civilized discussion on the BSN.  It is also refreshing to have a debate with someone who actually presents evidence!


I agree with alot of your points! Much of the debate and confusion would be unnecessary if bioware simply addressed these issues in game, by showing these other reaper vairents for instance. But at best, all we can do is guess as to whether the reapers seen in ME2's end cutscene were retconned or not. Two of these varients could be the processor and transport varients, but who knows for sure.

As for the reaper core, as Mac (and now Patrick Weekes, according to that interview linked by Garrus is my Shepard)  have said, it does seem as though this was initially intended to be in the game, but was cut for time issues. If Emily Wong's death via twitter can be considered cannon, i believe the human reaper being a reaper core should be too.

#62
BlazingZephyr

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Dark-energy plot. Retcon.

/thread

#63
Deadpool9

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Reapers are like cereal boxes--there's a prize inside every one. There should be DLC where we get to open the Rannoch Reaper and see what prize it has at the bottom of the box.

#64
TheCrazyHobo

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Barnzy wrote...

If Emily Wong's death via twitter can be considered cannon, I believe the human reaper being a reaper core should be too.


You sir just made me shed a small tear.....twitter should never be canon and Emily Wong should not be dead.....

#65
LuckyBullet95

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Dusen wrote...

A logical answer as to why there isn't a very large variety of Reaper designs in the cutscene at the end of ME2 is quite possibly because they didn't want to have to design 1000s of different ships for that one cutscene. Four or five would be enough to give the illusion that there are hundreds of different designs. In ME3 though, there are only two major Reaper designs.

Also, the reason why this question continuously gets posted is quite simple, and it's because Bioware neglected to explain much of anything in the actual game. They for some reason think that it's acceptible to post important lore points on blogs and twitter, hence why no one could figure out what happened to whatshername the reporter, or why all Reapers suddenly look the same, yet the human Reaper was surprisingly distinct from its cousins.


It makes sense that you'd only see two. As already pointed out their are only 5 variants. Harbinger, the original reaper created in the image of Leviathan. Capitol ships, a reaper created from the greatest race of a cycle (in this case the humans). Destroyer ships, a reaper seemingly created from "lesser races" or simply races who do not have a large enough population to create a Capitol Ship (it is a maximum of half the size of a Capitol afterall). Trooper Transport (non-sentient build for transporting troops, obviously). And Processing Ships (for processing captured races into shock troops or reapers).

It makes sense that you would only see two variants as why would Harbinger send non-sentient ships that are designed to create and carry troops into a battle?  Destroyer and Capitol ships are created for war. Processing and Trooper Transport ships are created for aiding the war effort. If they lose Processing ships then they take a huge hit as they can no longer churn out the massive enemy numbers.

As for the OP it's already been stated that the inside of a Reaper is designed to look like the race it is processed from. This makes sense given how the Catalyst managed to trick itself into thinking the best solution is to harvest the races, capturing their memories and lifespan in the form of a Reaper. However the hull of a reaper is designed to look like Harbinger. This is most likely because it is the most efficient ship design. You wouldn't created a war machine to look like a television would you?

Oh yeah, and the inside of the reaper from ME2 did have a unique design. It's core resembled a amphibious species, possibly something resembling a hanar-like species. You can see by actually examining it closely. The only thing I hate about BSN is how they trust the word of EDI. She was speculating, she is designed to. How could she of known for definite that that wasn't the core? The only reaper we had seen was Sovereign and the remains of him were quickly disposed of by the council or taken by opportunists. The council wouldn't want the public knowing of the core and the opportunist wouldn't know it was a core.

Yes the idea was probably retconned because of time constraints. Most of Mass Effect 3's plot holes and issues are down to time constraints. Do you think BioWare wanted to photoshop a stock photo of Tali? Because I don't. They didn't do Mass Effect 3 as a middle finger to the fans. Mac Walters changed the story mid-way through it and it just never worked out. BioWare wanted to make the Reaper even more awe-inspiring by giving them each a variant of what they looked like. However it never worked out and they had to go to their contingency. That is the only thing to say.

#66
Jef The Reaper

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Well that's a easy one, Bioware, being the amazing company they are had the idea to make every reaper unique, looking like the race they were harvested from.

thus making the human reaper as a second in a long line of much unique looking reapers,

then one of the bosses of EA barged into there office and slapped a new unreasonable deadline on the table as the money bucket was running dry and they had to scratch the idea while the human reaper was already finished and in the game, meaning they now have a contradiction in there story.

 

whatever flaws the game has, I pin it all on EA, seriously guys, learn to let your workers slow down and work everything out in detail.

I love Mass Effect and Dragon Age, but always get the feeling the games are not living up to the real potential they could have had if given a bit more time.

 

I'm looking forward to Andromeda, but if its going to be the same dance and song as every past released game, then give it another 2-5 years so we can receive a game worked out in detail with virtually no glitches.


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