21 réponses à ce sujet

[Vertrix]

Well, i decided to start over the OC campaign, and i was thinking about making a rogue character. I was planning to make it rogue/thief of amn/assassin dualwielder with weapon finesse. But then i thought that in the OC campaign there is a lot of undead, so the rogue is pretty much useless. If i make it dex based, at least.

What do you think? Is it worthy of playing, or it just sucks?

[GFallen01]

Vertrix wrote...

What do you think? Is it worthy of playing, or it just sucks?

It just sucks.

http://nwn2db.freefo...the-oc-t49.html

[Vertrix]

lol, that thread just ruined my plans...Well, thanks for saving me a giant waste of time then, lol...i'll try and think about another build. With a good strength it shouldnt be totally useless, right?

[Arkalezth]

Right. You mentioned rogue/SToA/assassin, you can try something like this. It's STR based so, as you said, it won't be "totally useless", but it won't be spectacular either. You can change fighter for ranger and take Improved Favored Enemy: Undead, you may have to lose some feat though.

Also, you can always craft some overpowered weapons...

[Luminus]

With Kaedrin's pack, the Rogue becomes from almost useless to extremely useful, in the OC. Why? Skullclan Hunter.
The Skullclan Hunter can Sneak Attack undead and gets a bunch of immunities. Check it out here.

http://nwn2customcon...kullclan-hunter

You need to be good-aligned and get 1 Cleric level. You lose some skill points with it, but you get a bunch of goodies and it also qualifies you for a couple of feats, through domains, which you wouldn't get until much later. Like Trickery for Feint and Chaos for Slippery Mind.
Also with Sacred Vengeance you get 2d6 against undead for a round. Pretty nice if you have lots of attacks.

An Elven, Chaotic Good, Rogue/1 Cleric/Skullclan Hunter/1 Shadowdancer, with the Chaos and Trickery Domains, dualling Short Swords, is amazing at all levels, even in MotB.
Also, it makes sense lore-wise if he follows Erevan Ilesere and you max Bluff for Feint.

If you don't have Kaedrin's Pack, go download it. Now. It only adds and fixes stuff.
There is no reason not to use it, unless you use other class packs, which most of them I consider them lacking compared to Kaedrin's pack, or you play some modules which are incompatible with it.

[Vertrix]

This pack seems cool, but i do not own storm of zehir :/

[Arkalezth]

Luminus wrote...

There is no reason not to use it

Not trying to start a discussion here, and I won't go into details, but I'm not too convinced about that anymore. It's true that it fixes many bugs, but it also modifies a lot of stuff, for whatever reasons, that could arguably have been left untouched.

Then there's the issue of adding some overpowered ability, noticing it's overpowered, then nerf some other apparently unrelated thing to "balance" things out...

Don't take me wrong, Kaedrin has done an amazing job and I'm really grateful for his contribution to the community, but there are some things that make me think that the beast has started going out of control...

So yes, there may be reasons to not use it, other than incompatibility issues. You can't just use it as a bug fixing patch, even if you don't use the extra content, some things in your game will be modified. For better or worse, that's entitled to each one's opinion. I personally haven't been using it in the last few modules I've played.

[Luminus]

Vertrix wrote...

This pack seems cool, but i do not own storm of zehir :/

I would try and get it if I was you. Unless you are playing the OC and MotB only once and moving to another game, it is pretty much necessary. 
Many popular modules need it, many Persistent Worlds and Kaedrin's Pack need it. Also you are missing on some nice classes, races and PrCs.

Arkalezth wrote...

Not trying to start a discussion here, and I won't go into details, but I'm not too convinced about that anymore.

I wouldn't mind if you did, actually. I cannot think of any overpowered ability, except maybe Ember Guard. Which was nerfed.

Even if there are a few of those, the huge benefits you get far outweigh the drawbacks.

Modifié par Luminus, 02 septembre 2012 - 12:43 .

[Vertrix]

Eh, i have been looking for it for quite long now....but it seems to have disappeared from all digital stores...that's real weird.

[Luminus]

Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk, have it. Though, it is overpriced. You can buy it used, if you don't care for multiplayer.
I was pretty lucky when I bought the Platinum edition a year or so ago.

[Arkalezth]

Well, there are many little things. A few examples here. Another, very minor but handled in a bizarre way IMO, and that kinda illustrates my point, here (I got a bit of a jerk response, BTW).

It might sound like I'm exaggerating, it's not like every rule in the game has been changed, but I wish (it's impossible, I know, I'm not making a request) there was some version that, for better or worse, just added the extra content and bugfixes, without "adjusting" other stuff.

Edit: Thread about game buying: http://social.biowar.../index/13810442. I doubt you can get SoZ as a standalone anywhere.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 02 septembre 2012 - 01:20 .

[Luminus]

The options are there. They are not forced on you. I read that thread and some arguments are silly.

1. Snowflake Wardance. If you use it, you get a bonus. If you exploit the engine, you get a penalty. If you get disarmed, you switch tactics.
If you think it does more harm than good, similarly to Circle Kick, you don't use it.

2. Eldritch Glaive is not overpowered. At least compared to PnP. It is a much needed replacement for the broken and useless Hideous Blow, which he will make an instant Extra Invocation feat.
Also fixed the overpowered exploit with HiPS and Glaive. Mostly because HiPS is not working as intended and tries to reduce the exploit.

3. The Knockdown item thing. I get it. You like the choice of giving a player a Knockdown item. But if the item is broken, it can make modules or the OCs a cakewalk. Some module authors might not be aware of that exploit, though. Plus, this is not how Ring of the Ram works in PnP. Though Balagarn's Iron Horn with charges, would be a better solution.

The extra stuff are there to give you more choice and to rebalance the game. Not for you to cheat.
If you are going to abuse broken items and cheat, just set your levels to 30 and give yourself any items you want and don't use Kaedrin's pack.
If you play online, then you should be punished for exploiting, as it is unfair to other people.

Edit: If he tried to split his pack, trying to update 3-4 different packs for different people:
Single-player bugfixes, single player extras, multiplayer bugfixes, mulitplayer extras. Maybe also single player bugfixes and extras and same for multi.
This would halt his new stuff to a crawl and would be extremely tedious to keep track of.

I might sound like a fanboy and I disagree with a few changes but it was for the best, honestly.

Modifié par Luminus, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:13 .

[Arkalezth]

This is why I didn't want to go into details. You're missing the point, my intention is not to cheat, nor I'm implying that those changes don't have a justification. Of course they do. When did I say otherwise?

"Not forced on you"? How so? You either get the full package (and, maybe exaggerating a bit, you learn a different ruleset in regards to some things), or you get nothing. That's the point.

1) I won't comment on Snowflake because I really haven't looked at that issue, I don't even remember what it's about.

2) Yes, it is. I don't know if it's still possible but you could do 1000+ damage in a single hit with it. Maybe it was changed and you can only do 500 now... whatever. HiPS and Glaive isn't a bigger exploit than a HiPSing dwarven defender in full plate and tower shield, and yes, that works.

I also mentioned Combat Expertise. Do you want it to apply a penalty to warlock attacks? Cool. But why can mages still ignore the penalty when casting Disintegrations, Polar Rays and the like (unless there's a mechanical issue involved, which I doubt)?

3) I don't know how it's in PnP, and I understand that some authors might not be aware of exploits, but changing Knockdown for Iron Will seems like a random and bizarre decission to me. Why Iron Will and not, I don't know, Dodge, or anything else?

You asked for examples about things that were changed and I simply mentioned a few on the top of my head. Agree with them or not, that's not what I'm discussing here. Just saying there's a reason (i.e. it exists) why you might not want to install Kaedrin's. If you're not going to use the extra stuff, you may not be interested on the changes to the vanilla game. If you are, install the mod, if you aren't, play the game as it is. And by the way, the game is not balanced with or without Kaedrin's pack, but even then, it imbalances it more than the other way around. Frankly, some classes and feats contained in Kaedrin's feel more like cheating than the possible exploits in the unmoded game.

Also, this is not PnP. Wizards are demigods in PnP, I've heard. That's not the case in NWN2. In PnP you don't normally fight hordes of enemies either, as you do in many NWN2 modules.

For the record, I've never played a warlock with HiPS (and I've played a lot of warlocks), I've never used Snowflake Wardance, I dislike feats on items, and I rarely use Knockdown.

As I said, I'm not requesting for different versions. Just saying that, ideally, in a perfect world in the land of happiness, the changes to the vanilla stuff would be optional.

That said... what was this topic about?

Modifié par Arkalezth, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:53 .

[Luminus]

...When I say "you", I don't mean yourself specifically. I mean anyone in general that wants to cheat. I believe we had this misunderstanding happen in a past thread, again. My fault.
Of course I am not accusing you of cheating, I am just providing a counter-argument about the changes.

I mean that someone cannot use the various stuff they don't like and only go with the bug-fixes, if they only want that part.

Warlocks were considered useless and that they were included for story-line purposes only. Giving them an ability to do steady and respectable damage is good.

The 1000 damage part, might be possible with Empower + Maximize Spell-Like Ability, Eldritch Master, Hellfire Warlock, every epic feat being Epic Eldritch Blast and a critical.
Because I remember I could do around 250 damage in a test module at range.

It is not much different than the +8 5d6 x 3 weapons you can do in MotB. Or Great Smite Paladins with a Scythe and a critical.
Warlock improvements and Glaive were requested from very early, when the game was released.

In PnP, you expend charges to do some damage and bull rush.
http://www.dandwiki....Ring_of_the_ram
Maybe it was changed to Iron Will, because rams are considered stubborn? I don't know, just a guess.

Yeah, but the changes only improve the game. Its not like the controversial "Plot Fixes" mod in the vault where it changes many stuff for no reason but personal preference. Or the Reeron's Spell Fixes and improvements where you get Time Stop and can summon unlimited creatures, if I am not mistaken.

The game is still not perfectly balanced but Kaedrin improved many stuff. Blackguard, Paladin, Warlock, Hellfire Warlock, Pale Master, Fighter, Barbarian, to name a few, are now great choices, instead of dips.
Monks got Intuitive Strike etc.
It is not PnP but the game is heavily based on it.

Edit: Mages have low-bab and limited spells. Warlocks have medium bab and unlimited blasts.
Also, I am not suggesting this should be made into an exact PnP conversion. I am saying things that are underpowered or overpowered, should use PnP fixes to balance them.

...And this topic was about how awesome Skullclan Hunter is... or how Rogue sucks in the OC.

Modifié par Luminus, 02 septembre 2012 - 03:19 .

[Arkalezth]

Sorry about the "you" part. I figured that could be your meaning, but I thought I'd explain myself anyway.

I disagree about warlocks being useless and I could rant a lot about that... but I'll leave that for another day. About Glaive, damage records apart, it's often a heavily discussed ability in PW forums. And still, the "fix" (halving damage if the character has HiPS), while it can prevent the "exploit", it's still a bit bizarre. Besides, what if I have HiPS (I may be playing an assassin/warlock or whatever) and Glaive, but I don't use both in conjunction, using HiPS only to sneak around? I don't exploit, yet I get the nerf.

There's probably a reason for Iron Will to be the feat of choice for the ring, but in practice, it changes a combat move for a better force of will. That's... weird.

I have no doubt that every change Kaedrin has made is intended for the benefit of the game as a whole, but it's also hard to keep everything balanced when there's so much content. If you balance a little thing here, you may be indirectly unbalancing another there.

I guess a way to put it is that sometimes I like to keep the game somewhat "pure", and just add more options, rather than overhauling everything to include those. Some things are clearly bugs (i.e., X spell should grant Darkvision but it doesn't) , others are more grey than black or white (not meaning anything in concrete here).

The examples are put came, as I said, from the top of my head, but there are lots. Some are minor things (like the Ring of the Ram, it really won't make a difference to me), but if you start modifying minor thing after minor thing after minor thing... you can end up playing a different game.

Well, I think it's all clear so no need to continue with the off-topic. In short: Is K's good and advisable? Generally speaking, yes. But if you don't plan on using the extra content, and you don't want to modify your base game a lot, maybe you shouldn't install it.

[Arkalezth]

Luminus wrote...

Edit: Mages have low-bab and limited spells. Warlocks have medium bab and unlimited blasts.
Also, I am not suggesting this should be made into an exact PnP conversion. I am saying things that are underpowered or overpowered, should use PnP fixes to balance them.

Not every mage has low BAB. EK has high BAB, for example (not to mention K's classes). Mages have Mage Armor, Shield (spell), Spiderskin, Displacement, Mirror Image, Stone Body, Premonition... and Expertise without penalties. Warlocks have... light armor. Medium and a shield if you muticlass or take the appropiate feats (but so can do mages as well).

Which class has a bigger need for a defensive feat? A bit of AC won't make warlocks overpowered (specially since you said they were considered useless a moment ago).

Oh, and Kaedrin's mages HAVE unlimited touch attacks.

But that's not my point. You can't apply a -3 AB penalty to a fireball, fine. But if you do it for touch attacks, do it for every touch attack. Don't want an AB penalty in your Disintegration ray? Don't use Combat Expertise.

I think I'll leave it here, I really don't want to engage in a long and pointless (the game will stay the same regardless) discussion.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:11 .

[Luminus]

I said considered useless and I mean they don't really fulfill a role. Maybe archery with unlimited touch arrows? They make a nice alternative to rangers/scouts but still lack stealth or scouting skills, except Walk Unseen.
But they couldn't compete with the damage potential of either melee or caster classes. They are nice in PWs or modules with limited resting though.

Now they can do very nice nova damage with Empower/Maximize SLA. Hellfire Warlock advances their Eldritch Blasts and Hellfire Shield adds all the EB damage.
Or they can switch to Glaive at close range, instead of the useless Hideous Blow or run/hide/go invisible.

An Eldritch Knight would go into melee with normal weapons probably. Be it Longsword (Fighter), Rapier (Swashbuckler) or Longbow. They need the AB.
Eldritch Glaive is melee touch, which means it hits very very often. Only enemies with high dex can resist it.
Touch spells are a small part of Mage spells. Eldritch Blast/Glaive is the main attack of the Warlock.
I guess it should apply to all Touch Attacks, though. This might be fixed or not. I agree on that.

Also, mages have unlimited touch attacks, if you mean the Reserve feats. But those are very short range and quite limited.

Warlock is bad for such stealth roles. Arcane Trickster does it much better and naturally.  You might not exploit but many, especially those on PWs that PvP and want to, WILL. I have a friend that loves making chars just to PvP on PWs. One of his "ultimate" characters was a stealthy Warlock with HIPS.

Edit: Anyway, that is for the best. I personally believe that the advantages outweight the disadvantages. Of course it is not perfect but nothing is.

...I have Icewind Dale 2 to finish now.

Modifié par Luminus, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:11 .

[Dann-J]

I played the OC with a rogue/shadow dancer, and he kicked arse. Hide in plain sight, combined with lots of rogue levels to maximise sneak attack, can be a deadly combination.

For sneak-attack immune beasties, just make sure you've crafted a weapon with plenty of elemental damage (fire is always good against undead). I was able to have one of the companions enchant a disruption weapon well before the attack on Crossroad Keep, which compensated for the lack of sneak attack. I buffed myself silly preparing for the Nightwalker - and it died with the first hit!

I don't think I'd tackle MotB with a rogue though.

[Luminus]

DannJ wrote...

I don't think I'd tackle MotB with a rogue though.

Yeah, elemental weapons work too. But the Rogue is even better in Epic, actually. Epic Precision. You can Sneak Attack anything for half-damage.

I was not aware that Disruption enchants existed. So that solves the OP's problem.
Make Disruption + Holy + Undead bane (if the last one exists as a recipe) weapons and have your casters cast Greater Magic Weapon on both of them.

Though, Skullclan Hunter is great also in modules where such excessive enchanting is not available if you REALLY like to be an undead hunter.

[Dann-J]

Holy weapon (+2d6 vs evil):
- Caster level 7
- Diamond, faint power & faint water essences
- Spell: cure critical wounds

Weapon of disruption (undead make DC14 will save or are destroyed)
- Caster level 14
- Jacinth, glowing power & glowing water essences
- Spell: Undead to death

Modifié par DannJ, 03 septembre 2012 - 01:48 .

[Karibus]

Hey All,

Everything DannJ says it true. I'd make Holy/law weapons, no sneak attack armor and level/use my npcs to be crafting pack mules. In MoTB, I made "rainbow weapons" with my main using the 6D fire and Ice enchantments. Mithral Breastplates count as light armor and the weight reduction doesn't count against the 3 then 4 max enchant limit.

I soloed a rogue/assassin/SToA through all 3 campaigns and all the original nwn stuff too. The key is:

1. Collect and craft slayer/bane weapons.
2. Run and hide in plain site ALOT.
3. Use the npcs long enough to do their quests then pack mule them.
4. Get help with the true seeing red dragon. (it sucks)
5. Play both sides good/evil of the campaign whenever possible.
6. See # 2.

I've been doing this style since Eye of the Beholder 1. The effect is that your character levels very fast, usually past the given game's level cap. You collect all the items like a hoarder, but also keep/make the best ones. It's the best way to get all the plot options/dialogue/exp possible in one run. It's like you're the Hitman or Punisher. Planning your targets with specific equipment and weapons. You can really pull this off with traps too.

Hope This Helps.

[Karibus]

Derp, almost forgot. The build I use has these stats:

ST 10
DX 14
CN 10
IN 18
WI 8
CH 14

You can change the CH for ST if you don't feel like talking as much or take ranger for 3 lvls instead of a prestige class. I try to get melee and exotic weapon feats soon and this is much easier with some ranger in you. I also keep raising my INT for keeping my skills maxed while multi-classing.

"My Kingdom for a Bag of Holding!"