222 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...
Then why was that scene there? To give fans hope that Shep is still alive.

"LOLOLOLOL LETS PUTT IT IN 4 DE LULZ!!!!1!1111!1!!1!"
No.

Yeah. If he was alive, there would've been more, like "Oh hey Shepard! You totally pulled our behinds out of the fire despite us all being morons for the entirety of the last game. Thanks. He's a t-shirt and a gift card to Flux or something."

A single freakin' breath before credits is either an easter egg or a tease.

Plus again, author intent to KILL SHEPARD by suicide is extremely visible.

[daecath]

Because you believe in the strength of a united galaxy.

Because for some strange reason, you don't think that the leader of an enemy that routinely lies (ie. indoctrination), who has just told you something you know to be untrue (that synthetic rebellion will lead to the destruction of all organic life), is being honest with you when he tells you that committing suicide will cause some miraculous fix for everything.

Because you would rather die than go along with whatever this genocidal madman/buggy computer program wants you to.

Because the other choices are tantamount to genocide, slavery, or mass genetic experimentation.

Because you value freedom over life.

Because you don't believe in survival at any cost, and cooperating with the king of the reapers is too high a cost.

[IamDanThaMan]

Some people apparently feel that allowing the entire advanced population of the galaxy to be decimated is ok as long as you can keep your personal morals in tact. Since you didnt push the button that killed the geth or forced synthesis on everybody or controlled the reapers, your concience is clear. Even though everyone is now dead because of you.

[Snoopy1955]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

Snoopy1955 wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why? That's pretty much making Shepard commit suicide. Bioware shouldn't of made the Refuse option. It just wasted resources. The only reason why Refuse might be a good option is if you can defeat the Reaper conventionally.

As opposed to actually making Shepard commit suicide by taking any of the other choices.

You're funny.

It isn't all about Shepard. By using the ****ty Starchild you free your cycle. Otherwise you just bring burden to another cycle.

High EMS Destroy, look it up.

Sheppard brings his entire cycle together to put down the Reapers. He has pretty much all of the battle worthy ships of the galaxy at his back, and he ends up face to face with a crazy hologram that has taken a form that represents all of his guilt over having to leave Earth to the Reapers.

The question is, after all of this, why would Sheppard not trust the rest of the galaxy? Wasn't the whole point to get everybody together to fight the Reapers with everything they had? He kept talking about how this was going to be their last fight, and they were going to take down the Reapers. The Crucible was supposed to be their big ace in the hole, but when he got to the final platform, what he is told is that it pretty much does not work as advertised.

Now we are presented with three choices:
1) We turn everyone into hybrid robot organics. Really, considering what the Reapers are doing is making hybrid robot organics, this choice does not appeal to me, as it is like saying "G'huk, sure I'll sacrifice myself t' make yer job easier."
2) Take control of the Reapers but lose everything that you are. Understanding that I will no longer be what I am, I have to ask who is really controling who at that point? I will be a soulless program, and while I may believe that I am still making the choices, and saving humanity, who is to say that I'm not just a new color sceme on the same old program. Besides, living forever as a computer would probably have an effect on me eventually, and at that point, the cycle starts again.
3) Destroy the Reapers, but at the cost of every being who is not organic. This seems like the obvious choice until we consider what the theme of Mass Effect is. We achieve victory together because of our differences. Accepting that all of the synthetics can die because they are not what I would percieve as "alive" flies in the face of that. I had dialogue options where I called out the Quarians on wanting to kill off the Geth, and really Legion was one of the more alive characters that I encountered, and was willing to give up his life in order to give his people a future. I can't see how destroying his people to preserve the future of the organics really respects his sacrifice, or shows respect to the Geth who followed my Sheppard into battle against the Reapers, who actually managed to improve the Geth substantially.

So, when faced with these choices, none of which appeal to me, and all of which have a drastic impact on the galaxy as a whole, I look at the star child and say, "No. C'mon, take a look at what we did. We got the entire Galaxy together here to punch you and your stupid Reaper buddies in the nose. You cannot use your guilt powers to make me turn everyone into robot sheep for you. You cannot convince me that what I should do is give you the voice that united the galaxy so that you can more easily make the transition with my face and personality. You cannot convince me that the only way to defeat you is by sacrificing the Geth who have risen up against you with your own improved code. I have the collective force of the Galaxy here to fight you, and I think that my guys can beat your guys."

Refusal isn't saying "I want to lose." It is saying "Your choices suck, and I think you are underestimating what a galaxy united can do against you."

[Baa Baa]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why? That's pretty much making Shepard commit suicide. Bioware shouldn't of made the Refuse option. It just wasted resources. The only reason why Refuse might be a good option is if you can defeat the Reaper conventionally.

Why? I'll tell you why...
Because hitting the "renegade" spot twice in this conversation leads to one of Shepard's best speeches of the entire trilogy!

I think it's just his best speech, no contest.

I honestly think the paragon speech to the crew before the beam rush was rather good. I was pumped and ready to kill the Reapers, be "big goddamn heroes", and save the galaxy. But no...

Yeah I do like that one too.
This bond that ties us together is something the Reapers will never understand; is more powerful than any weapon, stronger than any ship... it can't be taken or destroyed.
Makes you truely ready to kick ass.

[Texhnolyze101]

IamDanThaMan wrote...

Some people apparently feel that allowing the entire advanced population of the galaxy to be decimated is ok as long as you can keep your personal morals in tact. Since you didnt push the button that killed the geth or forced synthesis on everybody or controlled the reapers, your concience is clear. Even though everyone is now dead because of you.

The next cycle killes the reapers so nothing was really lost.

[Foolsfolly]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why? That's pretty much making Shepard commit suicide. Bioware shouldn't of made the Refuse option. It just wasted resources. The only reason why Refuse might be a good option is if you can defeat the Reaper conventionally.

Self-determination.

The Reapers offer three choices two of which have either the Reapers or Shepard extending their will over all lifeforms in the galaxy. The third option kills the Reapers at the cost of the emergant life of geth and EDI both of which having co-existence with organics disproves the Reapers ascertion that organics and synthetics must always war.

So all those are garbage.

And in the moment Shepard can say so and if this cycle wins or loses it'll be humanity, turians, quarian, geth, rachni, asari, salarans, krogan, vorcha, elcor, hanar, and drell who faced this threat of their own volition without mind control or magic or new DNAs. They fought and died because they were free and their working together disproves the Reapers entire meaning.

That's why you should have the option to refuse. Why should Shepard get so far and then bow to the whims of a Reaper anyway?

The two biggest mistakes BioWare did was not making victory possible through Refusal and having Shepard say "I can't make this decision" instead of something like "I won't make your choices."

[KiwiQuiche]

Other posters have already said most of my mentality on Refuse.

I'll recap though; I picked Refuse because I would not take the help from the one controlling the Reapers. I would rather have the galaxy destroy the Reapers on their own terms and using their own way rather than that of the Reapers themselves. In all, it's a choice and people have different mentalities to pick this option. It's my favoured choice because of my own reasons.

Also, Shepard's speech was kick ass.

[Ticonderoga117]

Baa Baa wrote...
Makes you truely ready to kick ass.

Until you get shot in the face by a Reaper laser and go stupid.

[mongoosephantom]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

High EMS Destroy, look it up.

Except that doesn't show anything but a single lousy breath. Huzzah for vagueness! Heaven forbid you show him getting out of the rubble or something. But no, leave it completely vague. However, going on author's intent with Shepard committing suicide, I bet he dies five minutes later since every ship that could help LEFT.

Then why was that scene there? To give fans hope that Shep is still alive.

"LOLOLOLOL LETS PUTT IT IN 4 DE LULZ!!!!1!1111!1!!1!"
No.

Hope my a**. That scene doesn't make any f***ing sense. They probably did put it in jus 4 de lulz

[Hudathan]

Snoopy1955 wrote...

The question is, after all of this, why would Sheppard not trust the rest of the galaxy? Wasn't the whole point to get everybody together to fight the Reapers with everything they had? He kept talking about how this was going to be their last fight, and they were going to take down the Reapers. The Crucible was supposed to be their big ace in the hole, but when he got to the final platform, what he is told is that it pretty much does not work as advertised.

Shepard didn't unite the galaxy because their fleets could defeat the Reapers, Shepard united the galaxy to give the Crucible plan a chance to succeed. The Crucible is not an ace in the whole, it's the only thing they have that could tip the balance.

101ezylonhxeT wrote...
The next cycle killes the reapers so nothing was really lost.

Shepard doesn't know that because Shepard can't see the future. For all he/she knows refusing to use the Crucible is equivalent of surrendering your only chance at victory, a chance that the future cycles may never have again.

Modifié par Hudathan, 02 septembre 2012 - 01:52 .

[SlyTF1]

Because I can.

[Jadebaby]

daecath wrote...

Because you believe in the strength of a united galaxy.

Because for some strange reason, you don't think that the leader of an enemy that routinely lies (ie. indoctrination), who has just told you something you know to be untrue (that synthetic rebellion will lead to the destruction of all organic life), is being honest with you when he tells you that committing suicide will cause some miraculous fix for everything.

Because you would rather die than go along with whatever this genocidal madman/buggy computer program wants you to.

Because the other choices are tantamount to genocide, slavery, or mass genetic experimentation.

Because you value freedom over life.

Because you don't believe in survival at any cost, and cooperating with the king of the reapers is too high a cost.

[Kathleen321]

I picked refuse the first time I played. I understand why someone would find this the only acceptable option- it's the only way to reject the catalyst's perverted solution. I ended up reloading and picking synthesis so everyone would survive but I still hate that I had to resort to those three options.

[Snoopy1955]

IamDanThaMan wrote...

Some people apparently feel that allowing the entire advanced population of the galaxy to be decimated is ok as long as you can keep your personal morals in tact. Since you didnt push the button that killed the geth or forced synthesis on everybody or controlled the reapers, your concience is clear. Even though everyone is now dead because of you.

Consider for a moment, that in Sheppard's lifetime, the Galaxt has never been united towards a single cause. We are seeing Turians and Krogan working together for a single cause, something that had you suggested was a possibility to anyone who wasn't on Sheppard's team was a possibility at the begining of game 1 was possible, they would have laughed at you and put you in a psych ward. If you chose carefully, you have Geth and Quarian ships flying together to defeat a common enemy. You have people who were only a few years prior spilling each other's blood now banded together to put an end to a force that would threaten all of them. Why would Sheppard not believe that this group could destroy the Reapers on their own merit, when he has been saying all along that if they all got together they could defeat the Reapers.

This is a guy who has seen 4 Reapers be destroyed. He knows that you can beat these things if you have enough fire power (or a Thresher Maw). If he didn't believe that he could beat the Reapers if he got the galaxy together, then really, why did he bother getting all of those ships to follow him into the final battle? What was the point in saving the Quarians or the Geth from their little battle over Rannoch? Why put an end to the Genophage, or stop that super bomb from going off on Techunka? The answer is because he truly believes that if we get the Galaxy to work together instead of worrying about who has blue skin, and who is an amphibian, and who might have fought with who in previous wars, that they can achieve anything, including winning this final stand against the Reapers, even without the crazy space magic of the crucible.

[bleetman]

Currently, because there'd be a good chance it'd get the leviathans wiped out too.

I'd consider that a desirable goal.

[daecath]

IamDanThaMan wrote...

Some people apparently feel that allowing the entire advanced population of the galaxy to be decimated is ok as long as you can keep your personal morals in tact. Since you didnt push the button that killed the geth or forced synthesis on everybody or controlled the reapers, your concience is clear. Even though everyone is now dead because of you.

Some people don't believe in meta-gaming.

It's really not that hard to understand. The catalyst is your enemy. He's already told you something that you can prove is wrong. The reapers that he created regularly use lies and manipulation to get what they want. You have no reason to believe him and every reason not to. He then tells you exactly what you want to hear. "You can save the galaxy, even make it better, and all you have to do is push this button." And just so that it's not too good to be true, you'll die doing it, but then, that's not really a factor since you're a soldier.

So your choice is to use a mysterious machine that a known liar tells you will perform a miracle to save you (hey little kid, come into my van, I've got candy), or take your chances that the largest armada ever assembled, with weapons that are proven effective against reapers, can win against them. You've killed Sovereign already, killed another with a laser pointer, another with a giant worm, another with a couple truck mounted missiles, and another with a hand cannon. Will it be easy? No. Will people die? Yes. But is it possible? Absolutely. With the right tactics and the right weapons, a conventional victory is possible. Or should be anyway, if you're not metagaming.

[Snoopy1955]

Hudathan wrote...

Shepard didn't unite the galaxy because their fleets could defeat the Reapers, Shepard united the galaxy to give the Crucible plan a chance to succeed. The Crucible is not an ace in the whole, it's the only thing they have that could tip the balance.

Really? After destroying Sovereign in ME1, destroying the Collector base and the Human-Form Reaper in ME2, destroying the Reaper on Tuchanka with the Thresher Maw, then destroying another Reaper on Rannoch with the Quarian Fleet in Me3, using conventional weapons kill Reapers isn't even a possibility? That's rather shallow minded.

101ezylonhxeT wrote...
The next cycle killes the reapers so nothing was really lost.

Shepard doesn't know that because Shepard can't see the future. For all he/she knows refusing to use the Crucible is equivalent of surrendering your only chance at victory, a chance that the future cycles may never have again.

Sheppard also doesn't know that his united fleet is going to lose the battle against the Reapers when he says "No, I'm not picking your choices." What he does know is that chosing destroy kills the geth, chosing Synthesis seems very suspect given what the Reapers are doing, and Reapers with the voice and holographic presence of Sheppard can probably get everyone in the galaxy lined up for indoctrination willingly, after all, he does seem to be a pretty convincing guy.

[ghost9191]

can we not say that ppl choose refuse so that they will not commit genocide, because i am pretty sure everyone knows by choosing to refuse you in turn cause the genocide of 14 species

ppl choose to refuse in order to fight the 3 options, well guess what happens by refusing, the reapers turn organics ( and synthetics) somehow into reapers, a form of synthesis if you will. They enslave races by indoctrinating them , like the collectors, and yes they commit genocide. So by choosing to refuse you commit all those acts that you do not wish to. By your actions genocide, slavery and mass genetic experimentation is committed, that is on shepard for not choosing to go with a option that the crucible was made for. The catalyst is just telling what they do, but has to power over it, or else it ( catalyst ) would've stopped it or chose for itself

but that is just me. just saying that the argument that you ( and i mean someone that chooses refuse ) choose refuse so you don't commit any of those "war crimes" is flawed considering all those crimes are done because of shepards action or inaction


as for me my choice is made at the time. there is not a way to win conventionally ( not yet anyways ) so i pick the option that gurrantees victory, yeah some might say at the cost of morales, but not everyones morals are the same, to think so would be racist. anywho i pick it cause it ends the threat, not to stop this so called organic synthetic connflict. but to end the reaper threat

Modifié par ghost9191, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:08 .

[Snoopy1955]

bleetman wrote...

Currently, because there'd be a good chance it'd get the leviathans wiped out too.

I'd consider that a desirable goal.

They were kind of dicks, weren't they?

[Zhijn]

Refuse:

Because my Shepard went through 3 games in the span of 5-6 years only to be greeted by a AI child who like to play sink my battleship on a galatic scale, and then be presented with three ways for the hero to kill him/herself. You know what? I'll reject that and let next dimwit in 50k years make that choice. My Shepard is at peace.

Modifié par Zhijn, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:08 .

[The_Other_M]

Foolsfolly wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why? That's pretty much making Shepard commit suicide. Bioware shouldn't of made the Refuse option. It just wasted resources. The only reason why Refuse might be a good option is if you can defeat the Reaper conventionally.

Self-determination.

The Reapers offer three choices two of which have either the Reapers or Shepard extending their will over all lifeforms in the galaxy. The third option kills the Reapers at the cost of the emergant life of geth and EDI both of which having co-existence with organics disproves the Reapers ascertion that organics and synthetics must always war.

So all those are garbage.

And in the moment Shepard can say so and if this cycle wins or loses it'll be humanity, turians, quarian, geth, rachni, asari, salarans, krogan, vorcha, elcor, hanar, and drell who faced this threat of their own volition without mind control or magic or new DNAs. They fought and died because they were free and their working together disproves the Reapers entire meaning.

That's why you should have the option to refuse. Why should Shepard get so far and then bow to the whims of a Reaper anyway?

The two biggest mistakes BioWare did was not making victory possible through Refusal and having Shepard say "I can't make this decision" instead of something like "I won't make your choices."

^^THIS, good god, THIS^^

[IamDanThaMan]

Sovereign was the only full size reaper thatwas destroyed, and that took an entire fleet. The others were an unfinished one and two destroyers that are on thenth the size of the thousands of harbinger class reapers. Conventional victory is not possible. The next cycle could only have won by doing what refuse shep didnt have the balls to do. To use the crucible, and accept the good and bad consequences that come with it.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Other posters have already said most of my mentality on Refuse.

I'll recap though; I picked Refuse because I would not take the help from the one controlling the Reapers. I would rather have the galaxy destroy the Reapers on their own terms and using their own way rather than that of the Reapers themselves. In all, it's a choice and people have different mentalities to pick this option. It's my favoured choice because of my own reasons.

Also, Shepard's speech was kick ass.

But a convetional ending is not possible. So that destroys the logic on why you would pick Refuse. If a ****'em'all victory was possible then I too would pick refuse, but in this case it is just a logical fallacy.
It's like not teaming up with Cerberus in ME2 (You can't do that, but just try to imagine it.)

I think BSN is so depressed that it is taking too much Headcanon.

[TsaiMeLemoni]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why?

Because they have different preferences/priorities than you do.

Modifié par TsaiMeLemoni, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:10 .