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Why the hell would you pick Refuse?


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#51
ghost9191

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IamDanThaMan wrote...

Sovereign was the only full size reaper thatwas destroyed, and that took an entire fleet. The others were an unfinished one and two destroyers that are on thenth the size of the thousands of harbinger class reapers. Conventional victory is not possible. The next cycle could only have won by doing what refuse shep didnt have the balls to do. To use the crucible, and accept the good and bad consequences that come with it.


you know there is a codex in game that you can read. i know reading is hard but don't talk unless you have facts:bandit:

not to come off as a dick just saying:whistle:

Modifié par ghost9191, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:11 .


#52
Texhnolyze101

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Hudathan wrote...

Snoopy1955 wrote...

The question is, after all of this, why would Sheppard not trust the rest of the galaxy? Wasn't the whole point to get everybody together to fight the Reapers with everything they had? He kept talking about how this was going to be their last fight, and they were going to take down the Reapers. The Crucible was supposed to be their big ace in the hole, but when he got to the final platform, what he is told is that it pretty much does not work as advertised.

Shepard didn't unite the galaxy because their fleets could defeat the Reapers, Shepard united the galaxy to give the Crucible plan a chance to succeed. The Crucible is not an ace in the whole, it's the only thing they have that could tip the balance.

101ezylonhxeT wrote...
The next cycle killes the reapers so nothing was really lost.

Shepard doesn't know that because Shepard can't see the future. For all he/she knows refusing to use the Crucible is equivalent of surrendering your only chance at victory, a chance that the future cycles may never have again.


Well its a good thing i already know what happens so picking refuse is still not a loss to me.

#53
KiwiQuiche

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ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Other posters have already said most of my mentality on Refuse.

I'll recap though; I picked Refuse because I would not take the help from the one controlling the Reapers. I would rather have the galaxy destroy the Reapers on their own terms and using their own way rather than that of the Reapers themselves. In all, it's a choice and people have different mentalities to pick this option. It's my favoured choice because of my own reasons.

Also, Shepard's speech was kick ass.

But a convetional ending is not possible. So that destroys the logic on why you would pick Refuse. If a ****'em'all victory was possible then I too would pick refuse, but in this case it is just a logical fallacy.
It's like not teaming up with Cerberus in ME2 (You can't do that, but just try to imagine it.)

I think BSN is so depressed that it is taking too much Headcanon.


It's my choice ending and I'm fine with it. That's enough for me.

#54
KiwiQuiche

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ghost9191 wrote...

IamDanThaMan wrote...

Sovereign was the only full size reaper thatwas destroyed, and that took an entire fleet. The others were an unfinished one and two destroyers that are on thenth the size of the thousands of harbinger class reapers. Conventional victory is not possible. The next cycle could only have won by doing what refuse shep didnt have the balls to do. To use the crucible, and accept the good and bad consequences that come with it.


you know there is a codex in game that you can read. i know reading is hard but don't talk unless you have facts:bandit:

not to come off as a dick just saying:whistle:




Liara mentions in the time capsule that her cycle used the Crucible and it didn't work. Why would the next cycle be retarded enough to make it again? Also twitter =/= canon

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:16 .


#55
Reth Shepherd

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Snoopy1955 wrote...

Refusal isn't saying "I want to lose." It is saying "Your choices suck, and I think you are underestimating what a galaxy united can do against you."


This.

#56
ghost9191

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youtu.be/jr063whzIBE

there legion says it best. just because it is not your choice, does not mean someone else will feel the same

that is why i choose not to make a thread about it. my choice is my own, i know other are wrong and i am right:whistle: ( joke btw ) so i do not need to make a thread to justify my choice. Plus i don't think you can justify any of the choices

#57
IamDanThaMan

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Ghost ive read it. Maybe you should take your own advice or actually show something that refutes my post.

#58
Snoopy1955

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ghost9191 wrote...

can we not say that ppl choose refuse so that they will not commit genocide, because i am pretty sure everyone knows by choosing to refuse you in turn cause the genocide of 14 species

ppl choose to refuse in order to fight the 3 options, well guess what happens by refusing, the reapers turn organics ( and synthetics) somehow into reapers, a form of synthesis if you will. They enslave races by indoctrinating them , like the collectors, and yes they commit genocide. So by choosing to refuse you commit all those acts that you do not wish to. By your actions genocide, slavery and mass genetic experimentation is committed, that is on shepard for not choosing to go with a option that the crucible was made for. The catalyst is just telling what they do, but has to power over it, or else it ( catalyst ) would've stopped it or chose for itself

but that is just me. just saying that the argument that you ( and i mean someone that chooses refuse ) choose refuse so you don't commit any of those "war crimes" is flawed considering all those crimes are done because of shepards action or inaction


We, as players who know how refuse turn out, know that by chosing to refues everyone dies. If I was playing this game fot the very first time, or was role playing as Sheppard who does not have magical future telling powers, and at no point during my play experience had his fortune read, knows for sure that his united force is going to lose. He's killed Reapers before. He knows that it can be done, so he knows that this isn't like throwing rocks at the sky in the hope of killing god.

As for your statement that the Catalyst would have made the choice itself if it knew what the best answer is, there is one fundamental flaw in that theory, and that is the question, what if the Catalyst is incapable of making that choice. It is, at it's core, a program. Based on what Leviathan tells us, it was designed and built to preserve life. Now, based on what we know about the Reapers and the Catalyst, they view both Synthetics and Organics as alive, so it can't chose destroy, because that would be destroying everything that they have preserved in reaper form, as well as killing all of the Geth, which is directly counter to it's programming. Control is not possible without someone to take control, so the Catalyst is incapable of doing this itself. Synthesis seems to require something special from Shepard. I believe the Catalyst says that even it doesn't understand what is special about him, so this is again, not possible for the Catalyst on it's own. That being said, even if the Catalyst had come to a super logical conclusion as to what option to take, it cannot take the option itself as the only option it can take is directly contradictory to it's programming and reason for being.

The Catalyst needs something from Sheppard, and it can't just indoctrinate him and make him do it, as that would make control and destroy impossible, and could take away whatever is special enough about Shepard to make synthesis right, so instead is manipulates through guilt, and possible lies to try and drive the decision towards the most desired outcome.

#59
ghost9191

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Reth Shepherd wrote...

Snoopy1955 wrote...

Refusal isn't saying "I want to lose." It is saying "Your choices suck, and I think you are underestimating what a galaxy united can do against you."


This.




so your reason is, just because you don't like the choices you will be willing to let 14 + races be killed and harvested just to make a point?

nice :blink:

#60
ghost9191

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IamDanThaMan wrote...

Ghost ive read it. Maybe you should take your own advice or actually show something that refutes my post.


there are multiple posts in the codex that refer to instances where reaper capital ships were taken down , battle of palaven and such, and pretty sure the asari took out a few, oh and miracle of palaven

#61
ZeCollectorDestroya

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Let me get it straight: So people are picking Refuse just because they don't like the Starchild's options? Of course they all suck but refuse is worse.

It's fine if Refuse makes you happy, but I just don't get your people's logic.

#62
D24O

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ghost9191 wrote...

so your reason is, just because you don't like the choices you will be willing to let 14 + races be killed and harvested just to make a point?

nice :blink:


Its just a game dude, they can do what they want.

#63
ghost9191

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@Snoopy1955

i think you might have misread or i didn't put it into words right

that was my point, i choose destroys without metagaming , it seems liek the only sure fire way to stop the reapers, your forces are being destroyed right about you., you lost most of hammer in the attack on the beam. same with sword. So to me atm there doesn't seem to be a way to win conventionally

and also that was my point about the catalyst, it cannot do any of those options without shepard, i see control and destroy as options that were built into the crucible. first destroy and over time control when ppl started getting the idea. synthesis was there but can only be achieved by catalyst and shep. or something like that, but was jsut saying that the catalyst did not come up with those options, only gives info

or so i think

Modifié par ghost9191, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:27 .


#64
Weak Sauce Hype

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So I can have time to go to the Leviathans and go "YOOOU GUYZ Y R U NOT HELPING???"

#65
ZeCollectorDestroya

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It might be a game, but I just want to cringe if this happens IRL.

The endings: The Afghanistan War Version.
Destroy: Nuke the country, millions of people die. Genocide.
Synthesis: You make peace with the 2 sides, but you die.
Control: You become the new dictator of the Taliban.
Refuse: You retreat from Afghan and let the Taliban do whatever they want.

#66
ghost9191

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D24O wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

so your reason is, just because you don't like the choices you will be willing to let 14 + races be killed and harvested just to make a point?

nice :blink:


Its just a game dude, they can do what they want.


hey, shut up :devil:

1, not like i was telling them what to do , just asking if that is their reasons, and a sarcastic nice

if you saw my previous posts on this threat you would possibly ( no gurantee ) understand i was joking. and it is not like i was using caps or anything to point to me being upset. was just saying i don't want him making any hard choices for me

and on the fact that it is a game. what if it is not, i mean what if this is  a game and someone is playing us. sure it would be boring but still , what is a game and what is not :?

before you answer, note that i am kidding, apart from my one post that everyone has different opions and have a right to voice them , i am just joking

Modifié par ghost9191, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:31 .


#67
AlanC9

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Snoopy1955 wrote...
We, as players who know how refuse turn out, know that by chosing to refues everyone dies. If I was playing this game fot the very first time, or was role playing as Sheppard who does not have magical future telling powers, and at no point during my play experience had his fortune read, knows for sure that his united force is going to lose. He's killed Reapers before. He knows that it can be done, so he knows that this isn't like throwing rocks at the sky in the hope of killing god.


It's like being Japan in 1945. Or the Free Peoples in 3019 Third Age. Maybe you'll sink a couple of carriers or win at the Pelennor Fields, but against the powers you're fighting there is no victory by force of arms.

When Gandalf said Sauron couldn't be beaten militarily, did you think him mistaken?

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:33 .


#68
Reth Shepherd

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ghost9191 wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Snoopy1955 wrote...

Refusal isn't saying "I want to lose." It is saying "Your choices suck, and I think you are underestimating what a galaxy united can do against you."


This.




so your reason is, just because you don't like the choices you will be willing to let 14 + races be killed and harvested just to make a point?

nice :blink:


Yes and no. That is indeed my message TO BIOWARE, that their choices are so horrible that I would rather see everyone go out fighting than bow down to the Reapers. On a personal level, however, I reject Bioware's canon. Everything past Harby's blast is a Reaper-induced nightmare. As for what is actually happening, it depends on my mood and current level of creativity, but I substitute either the Marauder Shields comic or my own headcanon. So in that sense no I'm not sacrificing 14+ races, I'm snapping out of the dream just enough to AVOID dooming them.

#69
Snoopy1955

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ghost9191 wrote...

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Snoopy1955 wrote...

Refusal isn't saying "I want to lose." It is saying "Your choices suck, and I think you are underestimating what a galaxy united can do against you."


This.




so your reason is, just because you don't like the choices you will be willing to let 14 + races be killed and harvested just to make a point?

nice :blink:


No, my reason is that Sheppard knows that the Reapers are afraid of him. Leviathan tells him so. He knows that he has united a Galaxy, not just one fleet, but all of the fleets together. He knows that with enough conventional  firepower, a Reaper will go down, and he knows that he has all of the conventional firepower that the galaxy has to offer.

He isn't saying "I give up, I think I'm going to let everyone die", because that isn't certain in his mind. He is simply deciding to give conventional weapons, and conventional victory a chance, after all, this space magic that the Catalyst is selling sounds pretty sketchy, and with all of the strings attached that the Catalyst is telling you, just what is he not saying?

I am choosing to attempt to defeat the Reapers using conventional means, because we have the combined firepower of an entire cycle together. I am chosing to give all of the people who came with me, even the Geth, a fighting chance of beating the Reapers and living to see tomorrow, instead of deciding all on my own which races are expendable for the "greater good".

I have not been given any reason to believe that the Reapers cannot be defeated by conventional means, because every time someone has said something is not possible in the game, Sheppard has gone off and proven them wrong. People said that the Genophage couldn't be cured. Cured it. People said that the Quarians could never take back their planet. Proved them wrong. People said that the Geth and Quarians couldn't get along. Showed them. People said that the Turians and Krogan couldn't fight side by side. Myth busted.

#70
Puppet_Guy

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Why would someone chose refuse?
For me, it's just when I'm feeling cruel and spiteful. If I can't be happy, no one in the galaxy can.

....In short, don't let me chose the fate of the universe for the love of god, I will screw everything over royally for my own cruel amusement.

Otherwise there's the whole "not going back on my personal morals" thing, but I digress.

Modifié par Puppet_Guy, 02 septembre 2012 - 02:37 .


#71
IamDanThaMan

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Sorry, my post was in response to the guy that said shepard had killed 4 reapers. I was just pointing out that the ones on tuchanka and rannoch were destroyers, only 160 meters high compared to the harbinger class that are over 2000.

#72
EpicBoot2daFace

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101ezylonhxeT wrote...

IamDanThaMan wrote...

Some people apparently feel that allowing the entire advanced population of the galaxy to be decimated is ok as long as you can keep your personal morals in tact. Since you didnt push the button that killed the geth or forced synthesis on everybody or controlled the reapers, your concience is clear. Even though everyone is now dead because of you.


The next cycle killes the reapers so nothing was really lost.

How do you know for certain? One of the reasons the current cycle was so successful was because of Shepard, and he isn't going to be around in the next cycle to help them out.

#73
Icinix

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Because the other three options are a sacrifice of morals and values.

The whole better to die free than live on your knees.

However, I honestly think their should not have been a final choice - rather the ending played out according to all the choices you had made in the three games.

#74
daecath

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ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

Let me get it straight: So people are picking Refuse just because they don't like the Starchild's options? Of course they all suck but refuse is worse.

It's fine if Refuse makes you happy, but I just don't get your people's logic.

The logic is very simple.
Shepard can't see the future. Shepard doesn't know that the refuse ending will end badly. Shepard doesn't know that catalyst is telling the truth. So, from that point of view:

Catalyst is the head bad guy.
Reapers use lies, deceit, and manipulation (ie. indoctrination) to get what they want. Catalyst is the head reaper.
Catalyst told you something you know is false.
Catalyst tells you something that is impossible sounding.
Likelyhood is that the options catalyst presents are all lies.
Therefore, reject his lies and hope that you've done enough to do the job conventionally.

It's not that tough to understand. It only doesn't make sense when you bring in the player's external knowledge of how it ends. At that point, choosing refuse is either because you want to remain true to your character, and/or you are telling BioWare __|__ and that you hate their endings so much that you would rather destroy their universe than sit through them.

#75
AlanC9

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Snoopy1955 wrote...
I have not been given any reason to believe that the Reapers cannot be defeated by conventional means, because every time someone has said something is not possible in the game, Sheppard has gone off and proven them wrong. People said that the Genophage couldn't be cured. Cured it. People said that the Quarians could never take back their planet. Proved them wrong. People said that the Geth and Quarians couldn't get along. Showed them. People said that the Turians and Krogan couldn't fight side by side. Myth busted.


Who's thinking this way? Shep, or you? Surely Shepard doesn't think that she can do absolutely anything she really wants to do.

Why would Shepard think the Reapers can be defeated conventionally when nobody, literally nobody else, thinks a conventional win is possible? I can see how you might because you're playing a video game that's let you get away with stuff too much, but what's Shepard thinking?

And if Shep can do anything how come he loses a squadmate on Virmire?