222 réponses à ce sujet

[Snoopy1955]

ghost9191 wrote...

@Snoopy1955

i think you might have misread or i didn't put it into words right

that was my point, i choose destroys without metagaming , it seems liek the only sure fire way to stop the reapers, your forces are being destroyed right about you., you lost most of hammer in the attack on the beam. same with sword. So to me atm there doesn't seem to be a way to win conventionally

and also that was my point about the catalyst, it cannot do any of those options without shepard, i see control and destroy as options that were built into the crucible. first destroy and over time control when ppl started getting the idea. synthesis was there but can only be achieved by catalyst and shep. or something like that, but was jsut saying that the catalyst did not come up with those options, only gives info

or so i think

I chose synthesis my first time through, because the option to refuse wasn't there, and I was tired and just wanted to go to bed because it was later in the evening when I chose it. The reason I made this choice was because, after I had saved the Geth, and spent so much time saying that Geth were people too, and that they were just as valuable and alive as anyone else, when faced with the option of destroying the Reapers, but having to admit that the Geth were in fact worth less as a race than the Organics, I couldn't do it. It stopped just being "If I destroy the Reapers, I save the galaxy" and instead became "If I wipe out the Geth, then everyone else is sure to live."

Saying that the Geth are expendable is easy if you view them as soulless machines, but imagine that instead the catalyst had said "Okay, you can kill the reapers, but if you do that, all of the humans are totally going to bite it in the process because we are at Earth, dood." Would you have been able to make that sacrifice for the galaxy? Wipe out an entire culture because it wasn't as important as the other cultures, because that is what Destroy asks you to do.

It says, "Weigh the Geth, a race of Robots who are now more alive than ever before" against any other culture in the game, and then decide that the Geth are less than the other cultures so it is okay to kill them off to save everyone else." I wasn't prepared to send that message to the galaxy.

[ghost9191]

@Snoopy1955

yeah was mainly kidding, thought the smiley said it all.

i dislike the choices also, and if there were a way to win conventionally ( which with the leviathans on your side i would think it would be almost possible ) i would choose refuse. but destroy for me ends the threat, at a great cost yes but one that is less than the others i think. All choices suck but personally i just atm of making the choice, would rather take the chance with the crucible. all the resources that were put into it, the ships and lives lost to get it to that point,. it doesn't seem like ( at that moment ) a conventional victory can be done. i don't like my shepard choosing the easy way, which annoys me because i was always about the hard way, saving lives and such

[AlanC9]

daecath wrote...

The logic is very simple.
Shepard can't see the future. Shepard doesn't know that the refuse ending will end badly. Shepard doesn't know that catalyst is telling the truth. So, from that point of view:

Catalyst is the head bad guy.
Reapers use lies, deceit, and manipulation (ie. indoctrination) to get what they want. Catalyst is the head reaper.
Catalyst told you something you know is false.
Catalyst tells you something that is impossible sounding.
Likelyhood is that the options catalyst presents are all lies.
Therefore, reject his lies and hope that you've done enough to do the job conventionally.

Why would the catalyst present lies? He's winning anyway.

[ghost9191]

Snoopy1955 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

@Snoopy1955

i think you might have misread or i didn't put it into words right

that was my point, i choose destroys without metagaming , it seems liek the only sure fire way to stop the reapers, your forces are being destroyed right about you., you lost most of hammer in the attack on the beam. same with sword. So to me atm there doesn't seem to be a way to win conventionally

and also that was my point about the catalyst, it cannot do any of those options without shepard, i see control and destroy as options that were built into the crucible. first destroy and over time control when ppl started getting the idea. synthesis was there but can only be achieved by catalyst and shep. or something like that, but was jsut saying that the catalyst did not come up with those options, only gives info

or so i think

I chose synthesis my first time through, because the option to refuse wasn't there, and I was tired and just wanted to go to bed because it was later in the evening when I chose it. The reason I made this choice was because, after I had saved the Geth, and spent so much time saying that Geth were people too, and that they were just as valuable and alive as anyone else, when faced with the option of destroying the Reapers, but having to admit that the Geth were in fact worth less as a race than the Organics, I couldn't do it. It stopped just being "If I destroy the Reapers, I save the galaxy" and instead became "If I wipe out the Geth, then everyone else is sure to live."

Saying that the Geth are expendable is easy if you view them as soulless machines, but imagine that instead the catalyst had said "Okay, you can kill the reapers, but if you do that, all of the humans are totally going to bite it in the process because we are at Earth, dood." Would you have been able to make that sacrifice for the galaxy? Wipe out an entire culture because it wasn't as important as the other cultures, because that is what Destroy asks you to do.

It says, "Weigh the Geth, a race of Robots who are now more alive than ever before" against any other culture in the game, and then decide that the Geth are less than the other cultures so it is okay to kill them off to save everyone else." I wasn't prepared to send that message to the galaxy.

yeah i have been trying to find the quote, but mordin says something like " commiting genocide to prevent genocide only causes genocide" says it if you are going to sabatoge the cure, anyways destroy is wrong but so are the other choices, but only shepard makes the choice, so the consequences are on him. although most would agree with destroy, ME galaxy i mean, the geth to most in there are just machines, and i guess bsn majority choose destroy, i would think new machines would see it as the logical choice. sacrifice the few for the many

[Snoopy1955]

AlanC9 wrote...

daecath wrote...

The logic is very simple.
Shepard can't see the future. Shepard doesn't know that the refuse ending will end badly. Shepard doesn't know that catalyst is telling the truth. So, from that point of view:

Catalyst is the head bad guy.
Reapers use lies, deceit, and manipulation (ie. indoctrination) to get what they want. Catalyst is the head reaper.
Catalyst told you something you know is false.
Catalyst tells you something that is impossible sounding.
Likelyhood is that the options catalyst presents are all lies.
Therefore, reject his lies and hope that you've done enough to do the job conventionally.

Why would the catalyst present lies? He's winning anyway.

Because he really wants Sheppard to pick Synthesis, as it is the end goal of the Reapers, and streamlines the process, but the Catalyst is incapable itself of initiating the Synthesis process. The other options exist because they were designed to be there, and the Catalyst tells you what they do because it would be pretty obvious that it was lying if Sheppard went "And what happens if I shoot that thing over there" and the Catalyst said "Uh...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

He could sit back, say nothing, and let the Reaper forces wipe out the combined fleets, but everything would be so much cleaner if they used the crucible to turn everyone into hybrids in one go, and as the Reapers were created to preserve life (see Leviathan DLC) they don't really want to kill off all of the people in the ships who came out to fight them as much as they want to turn them all into half robotic slaves.

[lynch108]

Tommyspa wrote...

The refuse option is fine for those who want it. I personally cannot comprehend someone choosing to not use the crucible based on what they interpret the catalyst as. If your going to die, could you at least die for someone else's future?

I think if the refuse option was there from the start, and nobody knew how the endings turned out, most people would have picked refuse when given the catalyst's options. Most people had grown accustomed to Shepard overcoming impossible odds and would figure he could find a way without taking instructions from the reapers' leader.

Modifié par lynch108, 02 septembre 2012 - 03:01 .

[AlanC9]

Snoopy1955 wrote...

Because he really wants Sheppard to pick Synthesis, as it is the end goal of the Reapers, and streamlines the process, but the Catalyst is incapable itself of initiating the Synthesis process. The other options exist because they were designed to be there, and the Catalyst tells you what they do because it would be pretty obvious that it was lying if Sheppard went "And what happens if I shoot that thing over there" and the Catalyst said "Uh...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

He could sit back, say nothing, and let the Reaper forces wipe out the combined fleets, but everything would be so much cleaner if they used the crucible to turn everyone into hybrids in one go, and as the Reapers were created to preserve life (see Leviathan DLC) they don't really want to kill off all of the people in the ships who came out to fight them as much as they want to turn them all into half robotic slaves.

So he's willing to take the chance of total reaper defeat and extermination, or the chance of being controlled by Shep to who-knows-what purpose, on the off chance that Shep might pick Synthesis instead of these choices? You're serious?

Anyway, this is OT, since this presupposes that the Reapers are winning anyway, and this thread is about the fantasy that they might not be.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 septembre 2012 - 03:02 .

[Isichar]

Refuse is only bad when your willing to ignore just how terrible the other options are.

[AlanC9]

lynch108 wrote...

I think if the refuse option was there from the start, and nobody knew how the endings turned out, most people would have picked refuse when given the catalyst's options. Most people had grown accustomed to Shepard overcoming impossible odds and would figure he could find away without taking instructions from a reaper leader.

You're probably right. Bio has often let players duck the hard choices, and this would have looked like just another time. I was shocked when DA:O's Ultimate Sacrifice turned out to be exactly what it says on the tin.

[Rip504]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few"

[Cutlass Jack]

Refuse is just as viable as any other choice if you're not metagaming. There is no reason whatsoever to believe the Catalyst is telling the truth as to what the three buttons do. The one he says is 'destroy' might really let the crucible to power up the reapers, it might give them a new paint job, or it might destroy them. You don't really know til you take one huge leap of faith and push a button.

Sure in the scenes following that you can see everything turned out exactly as it said, but there was no compelling reason to believe him at the time.

Besides, Captain Kirk would have picked refuse. When he didn't like the rules, he changed the rules. (okay he cheated.)

[Rip504]

Sometimes the Developer is speaking to you through the games characters. When at end game,and the details are being explained. It is safe to assume most of it will play out the way it was explained. Hence story telling and giving you a basis for choice. If you consider everything a lie,then refuse should be your only option. Which IMO is seeing only what you want to see.

[daecath]

AlanC9 wrote...

daecath wrote...

The logic is very simple.
Shepard can't see the future. Shepard doesn't know that the refuse ending will end badly. Shepard doesn't know that catalyst is telling the truth. So, from that point of view:

Catalyst is the head bad guy.
Reapers use lies, deceit, and manipulation (ie. indoctrination) to get what they want. Catalyst is the head reaper.
Catalyst told you something you know is false.
Catalyst tells you something that is impossible sounding.
Likelyhood is that the options catalyst presents are all lies.
Therefore, reject his lies and hope that you've done enough to do the job conventionally.

Why would the catalyst present lies? He's winning anyway.

Exactly. Why would the catalyst lie if he were winning anyway? Why would reapers use indoctrination if they were so unbeatable?

Simple. Because they aren't unbeatable. Because it is possible to destroy them. And because they know that.
http://masseffect.wi...Vulnerabilities
http://masseffect.wi...odynamic_Weapon
http://masseffect.wi...es#Space_Combat

Outfit every fighter on up with Thanix cannons. Send in the fighters first to start whittling away at the reapers and break down their lines, while the larger vessels hang back and provide fire from a distance. (link1) If a fighter could be outfitted with a small enough FTL drive - just something powerful enough for quick jumps - then they could really do damage by using hit and run tactics to fire off a shot and then flee before the reapers can get a lock, since once you go to FTL, you're invisible to sensors of any kind, and no weapon can hit you. (link3)

Then, once formation is broken, send in larger ships like the Normandy to FTL in behind a reaper, hit them before they can turn, and get out. (link1)

That alone could be enough to win, but there are other possibilities. For instance, how did Sovereign take control of Saren, and is there a way to generate the same feedback that occured when Saren's body was destroyed to make reapers vulnerable? What about weapons that could generate even more heat than a thanix? What about trying to analyse the pulse we saw in the Leviathan DLC and weaponize that? 

The protheans lasted centuries before they were defeated. There's no reason to assume that we wouldn't do the same, and in that time, many ways to defeat them could be found and put into use.

[Snoopy1955]

AlanC9 wrote...

Snoopy1955 wrote...

Because he really wants Sheppard to pick Synthesis, as it is the end goal of the Reapers, and streamlines the process, but the Catalyst is incapable itself of initiating the Synthesis process. The other options exist because they were designed to be there, and the Catalyst tells you what they do because it would be pretty obvious that it was lying if Sheppard went "And what happens if I shoot that thing over there" and the Catalyst said "Uh...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

He could sit back, say nothing, and let the Reaper forces wipe out the combined fleets, but everything would be so much cleaner if they used the crucible to turn everyone into hybrids in one go, and as the Reapers were created to preserve life (see Leviathan DLC) they don't really want to kill off all of the people in the ships who came out to fight them as much as they want to turn them all into half robotic slaves.

So he's willing to take the chance of total reaper defeat and extermination, or the chance of being controlled by Shep to who-knows-what purpose, on the off chance that Shep might pick Synthesis instead of these choices? You're serious?

Anyway, this is OT, since this presupposes that the Reapers are winning anyway, and this thread is about the fantasy that they might not be.

Cold computer logic.

Synthesis steamlines the Reaper process, gets them to exactly where they want to be only way, way faster than how they are currently getting there. Very desirable thing.

Control puts a new face on the Reaper threat, but in the end probably doesn't actually change much in the long run. Given that Shep is one of those "I want to save everyone types" and now is a soulles calculating machine brain, how long until "I want to save everyone" becomes "If I turn everyone into crazy machine hybrids like the Reapers were doing before, then I will be saving everyone! Lets do it!" Remember, Leviathan said that they created the Reapers to preserve life, so the change from "I will save everyone" to "the only way to save everyone is to turn them into souless machines like me" has already happened once. No reason to believe it won't happen again when given the same circumstances.

Destroy puts an end to the Reapers, and the immediate threat that the Organics face from the synthetics. All synthetics die with the Reapers, and we give those Organics a chance to not make the Synthetic mistake and doom themselves to all die against synthetics, with the cold hard reminder of the Reapers to keep them from making the mistake. It lets the organics advance a little bit further before making synthetics, and if they get advanced enough, if they do make the mistake again, it will probably be a Reaper level mistake like the Leviathans did way back in the day anyway, the cycle begins anew.

If the goal is "Don't let the Organic peoples and culture be destroyed by the Synthetics" every single choice leads to that goal, even if there is a possibility that it will not be permanent.

[IamDanThaMan]

I dont care how bad you think the other options are, they are not.as bad as letting everyone die. Also, for those claiming the catalyst is lying, he is not. We see the results of each ending and they are just as he said.

[Shermos]

I picked it in my fail game Shepard play through were I deliberately do everything as badly (and comically) as possible. It worked quite well.

[Isichar]

AlanC9 wrote...

Snoopy1955 wrote...

Because he really wants Sheppard to pick Synthesis, as it is the end goal of the Reapers, and streamlines the process, but the Catalyst is incapable itself of initiating the Synthesis process. The other options exist because they were designed to be there, and the Catalyst tells you what they do because it would be pretty obvious that it was lying if Sheppard went "And what happens if I shoot that thing over there" and the Catalyst said "Uh...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

He could sit back, say nothing, and let the Reaper forces wipe out the combined fleets, but everything would be so much cleaner if they used the crucible to turn everyone into hybrids in one go, and as the Reapers were created to preserve life (see Leviathan DLC) they don't really want to kill off all of the people in the ships who came out to fight them as much as they want to turn them all into half robotic slaves.

So he's willing to take the chance of total reaper defeat and extermination, or the chance of being controlled by Shep to who-knows-what purpose, on the off chance that Shep might pick Synthesis instead of these choices? You're serious?

Anyway, this is OT, since this presupposes that the Reapers are winning anyway, and this thread is about the fantasy that they might not be.

What do you know. Another refuse thread with Alan telling everyone what the OP topic is really about, followed by him telling us how wrong refuse is and how right the Catalyst is and how we have no reason not to trust him and put all our faith in .

I am sure you will just ignore this little tidbit as you did the last 5 or so times I posted it in a thread with you but...

Not everyone sees the crucible been fired as the best solution.

I know that comment is gonna lead to you bashing your head on the keyboard going into my denial over conventional victory ect. ect. Dont care. Maybe instead of going into these threads and endlessly bashing people over there views of the situation, you should try to understand why they viewed it that way.

I guess its easier to just be ignorant and believe that anyone who does not believe the same as you must just be in denial.

[Isichar]

IamDanThaMan wrote...

I dont care how bad you think the other options are, they are not.as bad as letting everyone die. Also, for those claiming the catalyst is lying, he is not. We see the results of each ending and they are just as he said.

And I dont care how bad you think refuse is, its not as bad as been a tool for the catalyst.

[Rip504]

Isichar wrote...

IamDanThaMan wrote...

I
dont care how bad you think the other options are, they are not.as bad
as letting everyone die. Also, for those claiming the catalyst is lying,
he is not. We see the results of each ending and they are just as he
said.

And I dont care how bad you think refuse is, its not as bad as been a tool for the catalyst.

Defeating the Reapers=Tool. Losing to the Reapers and sacrificing all life not to be a tool.(Helping the Catalyst continue the Harvest)=Cool Guy?

Lmao :lol:

daecath wrote...

Exactly. Why would reapers use indoctrination if they were so unbeatable?

It is called convenience. They may also enjoy it.

Modifié par Rip504, 02 septembre 2012 - 03:43 .

[ghost9191]

aren't all options bad

@Isichar

I think refuse is shepard being a tool, i mean come on it helps the catalyst and reapers finish the harvest. you just brought all your forces to earth, handed them to the reapers , and the one chance you get to end the conflict you choose to allow the reapers to continue. nice *looks for golfclap meme*

[Isichar]

ghost9191 wrote...

aren't all options bad

@Isichar

I think refuse is shepard being a tool, i mean come on it helps the catalyst and reapers finish the harvest. you just brought all your forces to earth, handed them to the reapers , and the one chance you get to end the conflict you choose to allow the reapers to continue. nice *looks for golfclap meme*

Yes Im a tool for not giving the Catalyst what he wants, and completing the reapers cycle for them.

I would rather fight and die, then submit.

Modifié par Isichar, 02 septembre 2012 - 03:50 .

[ghost9191]

Isichar wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

aren't all options bad

@Isichar

I think refuse is shepard being a tool, i mean come on it helps the catalyst and reapers finish the harvest. you just brought all your forces to earth, handed them to the reapers , and the one chance you get to end the conflict you choose to allow the reapers to continue. nice *looks for golfclap meme*

Yes Im a tool for not giving the Catalyst what he wants, and completing the reapers cycle for them.

pretty much what i said but ok. First step is admitting it


and explain how destroying or controlling the reapers is submitting to them?

Modifié par ghost9191, 02 septembre 2012 - 03:53 .

[Rip504]

Isichar wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

aren't all options bad

@Isichar

I think refuse is shepard being a tool, i mean come on it helps the catalyst and reapers finish the harvest. you just brought all your forces to earth, handed them to the reapers , and the one chance you get to end the conflict you choose to allow the reapers to continue. nice *looks for golfclap meme*

Yes Im a tool for not giving the Catalyst what he wants, and completing the reapers cycle for them.

I would rather fight and die, then submit.

You did give the Catalyst what it wants. You did submit. What are you talking about? Honestly?  The Catalyst states it can not,and WILL NOT. I am pretty sure the Catalyst does not want it and all of the Reapers destroyed. As they would consider it failing in their goal of Organic preservation.

www.youtube.com/watch

Your personal beliefs should not outweigh the lives of the entire galaxy. It is a bit selfish.

Modifié par Rip504, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:07 .

[Isichar]

ghost9191 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

aren't all options bad

@Isichar

I think refuse is shepard being a tool, i mean come on it helps the catalyst and reapers finish the harvest. you just brought all your forces to earth, handed them to the reapers , and the one chance you get to end the conflict you choose to allow the reapers to continue. nice *looks for golfclap meme*

Yes Im a tool for not giving the Catalyst what he wants, and completing the reapers cycle for them.

pretty much what i said but ok. First step is admitting it


and explain how destroying or controlling the reapers is submitting to them?

No thanks. I have spent enough time typing out my beliefs on the subject to know it will just go ignored so people like Alan can just continue to mindlessly bash it.

As I already said, its easier to mindlessly bash others beliefs without actually putting any real consideration as to why someone would choose it.

[ghost9191]

well i am not bashing anything, was only responding to your negative post on the other options having shepard be a tool. the choice is yours

just seemed like you were giving us crap for our choice, whatever though