222 réponses à ce sujet

[The Twilight God]

The Twilight God wrote...

Congratulations! In your failed attempt to "die free on your own terms" you ensure the Geth lose their freedom and later be compelled to enslave and/or destroy other species in the next cycle. Now, not only will the Geth as we know them perish, so does every other space-faring race in the galaxy because Shepard couldn't bear to make a necessary sacrifice.

If Shepard utilizes the Crucible to destroy the Reapers the collateral damage is as follows:

1. The Geth perish

If Shepard chooses "freedom" the devastation is as follows:

1. The Geth perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
2. Humanity perishes or is enslaved in reaper form.
3. The Asari perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
4. The Turians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
5. The Salarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
6. The Quarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
7. The Krogan perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
8. The Volus perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
9. The Elcor perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
10. The Hanar perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
11. The Drell perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
12. The Batarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
13. The Rachni perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
14. The Vorcha perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
15. Not to mention any other space-faring species who aren't shown in game.

Refuse is the ultimate betrayal. Unlike Control and Synthesis where Shepard is made susceptible to reaper influence and is deceived into fulfilling their will. Shepard is so broken that he knowingly condemns his allies to destruction and the Reapers have him convinced it is his idea. Shepard betrays his lover, his friends, his crew, humanity and every species he rallied together to confront the Reapers at Earth. All these beings came together, followed him into hell and he hung them all out to dry. Every sacrifice made, every life given to provide a future for their children - all of it - was rendered null and void by Shepard's act of betrayal.

[Isichar]

ghost9191 wrote...

well i am not bashing anything, was only responding to your negative post on the other options having shepard be a tool. the choice is yours

just seemed like you were giving us crap for our choice, whatever though

Just me been defensive. Mostly in large part to people like Alan.

Anyways as I stated, I already have typed out my beliefs enough times on the subject to know it will pretty much be completely ignored.

Modifié par Isichar, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:12 .

[Gruntburner]

Because some people think that their own personal convictions are worth the lives of the entire galaxy.

[Cutlass Jack]

IamDanThaMan wrote...

I dont care how bad you think the other options are, they are not.as bad as letting everyone die. Also, for those claiming the catalyst is lying, he is not. We see the results of each ending and they are just as he said.

And Shepard would know this how?

The issue isn't that the Catalyst is lying, its that there's no way Shepard knows its telling the truth without metagaming.

[Hey]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

IamDanThaMan wrote...

I dont care how bad you think the other options are, they are not.as bad as letting everyone die. Also, for those claiming the catalyst is lying, he is not. We see the results of each ending and they are just as he said.

And Shepard would know this how?

The issue isn't that the Catalyst is lying, its that there's no way Shepard knows its telling the truth without metagaming.

maybe.  But why would he present destroy as an option at all?  Mess with you?

[Jadebaby]

The_Other_M wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why? That's pretty much making Shepard commit suicide. Bioware shouldn't of made the Refuse option. It just wasted resources. The only reason why Refuse might be a good option is if you can defeat the Reaper conventionally.

Self-determination.

The Reapers offer three choices two of which have either the Reapers or Shepard extending their will over all lifeforms in the galaxy. The third option kills the Reapers at the cost of the emergant life of geth and EDI both of which having co-existence with organics disproves the Reapers ascertion that organics and synthetics must always war.

So all those are garbage.

And in the moment Shepard can say so and if this cycle wins or loses it'll be humanity, turians, quarian, geth, rachni, asari, salarans, krogan, vorcha, elcor, hanar, and drell who faced this threat of their own volition without mind control or magic or new DNAs. They fought and died because they were free and their working together disproves the Reapers entire meaning.

That's why you should have the option to refuse. Why should Shepard get so far and then bow to the whims of a Reaper anyway?

The two biggest mistakes BioWare did was not making victory possible through Refusal and having Shepard say "I can't make this decision" instead of something like "I won't make your choices."

^^THIS, good god, THIS^^

He actually does say that somewhat..

"I can't make that decision, I wont. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's, I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

I'd say that's pretty much an FU to the Catalyst. Pity the galaxy couldn't follow it up and have the Normandy pick up Shepard then go bananas on the Reapers.

[Cutlass Jack]

Festae9 wrote...

maybe.  But why would he present destroy as an option at all?  Mess with you?

That he presented a destroy option at all makes it seem all the more likely he's lying about what that button really does.

Why would he tell the truth about what button destroys them? That would be rather stupid.

[Rommel49]

IamDanThaMan wrote...

I dont care how bad you think the other options are, they are not.as bad as letting everyone die. Also, for those claiming the catalyst is lying, he is not. We see the results of each ending and they are just as he said.

Except that relies on metagaming; one cannot see the effects of a given choice in the ending until after a choice is made, not before.

Realistically, when the choices are first presented, there's no reason whatsoever to trust Starkid about their effect. 

On the question of "why would the Catalyst lie since it was already winning?", I'll point out that Germany was already clearly losing WWII prior to the D-Day landings, we still went to great lengths to convince the Germans that the D-Day invasion was going to take place at Pas-de-Calais rather than Normandy.

[Hey]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

maybe.  But why would he present destroy as an option at all?  Mess with you?

That he presented a destroy option at all makes it seem all the more likely he's lying about what that button really does.

Why would he tell the truth about what button destroys them? That would be rather stupid.

Because hes got you by the "b's".  Theres no reason to lie.

1 option = synthesis.

Unless hes a masochist then control?

[D24O]

The best way to play destroy is to turn the game off after it pans out, and put in Halo:Reach, and play this segment, rpetending you're fighting reapers.

Modifié par D24O, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:44 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Festae9 wrote...

Because hes got you by the "b's".  Theres no reason to lie.

The button would kill him. He has every reason to lie. I'm not seeing how telling you which button will kill him would have you by the 'b's'.

[ForTuchanka]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why? That's pretty much making Shepard commit suicide. Bioware shouldn't of made the Refuse option. It just wasted resources. The only reason why Refuse might be a good option is if you can defeat the Reaper conventionally.

For the same reason that some people would choose to tell off the Citadel Council when they were acting stupid... because they can.  Some people like to stick it to the man and fight the power (minus the stupid huge clock).

[Rommel49]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

The_Other_M wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why? That's pretty much making Shepard commit suicide. Bioware shouldn't of made the Refuse option. It just wasted resources. The only reason why Refuse might be a good option is if you can defeat the Reaper conventionally.

Self-determination.

The Reapers offer three choices two of which have either the Reapers or Shepard extending their will over all lifeforms in the galaxy. The third option kills the Reapers at the cost of the emergant life of geth and EDI both of which having co-existence with organics disproves the Reapers ascertion that organics and synthetics must always war.

So all those are garbage.

And in the moment Shepard can say so and if this cycle wins or loses it'll be humanity, turians, quarian, geth, rachni, asari, salarans, krogan, vorcha, elcor, hanar, and drell who faced this threat of their own volition without mind control or magic or new DNAs. They fought and died because they were free and their working together disproves the Reapers entire meaning.

That's why you should have the option to refuse. Why should Shepard get so far and then bow to the whims of a Reaper anyway?

The two biggest mistakes BioWare did was not making victory possible through Refusal and having Shepard say "I can't make this decision" instead of something like "I won't make your choices."

^^THIS, good god, THIS^^

He actually does say that somewhat..

"I can't make that decision, I wont. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's, I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

I'd say that's pretty much an FU to the Catalyst. Pity the galaxy couldn't follow it up and have the Normandy pick up Shepard then go bananas on the Reapers.

It's the really disappointing thing about refusal too, and why I'd like to see it evolve into a choice that can result in victory. It's one of the best speeches in the series, fits fairly well with its overall theme, and just ends with a whimper... which is completely against the theme of the series.

[ghost9191]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

The_Other_M wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why? That's pretty much making Shepard commit suicide. Bioware shouldn't of made the Refuse option. It just wasted resources. The only reason why Refuse might be a good option is if you can defeat the Reaper conventionally.

Self-determination.

The Reapers offer three choices two of which have either the Reapers or Shepard extending their will over all lifeforms in the galaxy. The third option kills the Reapers at the cost of the emergant life of geth and EDI both of which having co-existence with organics disproves the Reapers ascertion that organics and synthetics must always war.

So all those are garbage.

And in the moment Shepard can say so and if this cycle wins or loses it'll be humanity, turians, quarian, geth, rachni, asari, salarans, krogan, vorcha, elcor, hanar, and drell who faced this threat of their own volition without mind control or magic or new DNAs. They fought and died because they were free and their working together disproves the Reapers entire meaning.

That's why you should have the option to refuse. Why should Shepard get so far and then bow to the whims of a Reaper anyway?

The two biggest mistakes BioWare did was not making victory possible through Refusal and having Shepard say "I can't make this decision" instead of something like "I won't make your choices."

^^THIS, good god, THIS^^

He actually does say that somewhat..

"I can't make that decision, I wont. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's, I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

I'd say that's pretty much an FU to the Catalyst. Pity the galaxy couldn't follow it up and have the Normandy pick up Shepard then go bananas on the Reapers.

i would love a conventional victory as much as the next guy that would love one would, but as it is now that is simply getting known galaxy killed for the sake of shepards morals, that right there is probably morally wrong

in destroy you sacrifice 1 race in order to stop the reapers in this cycle , refuse you sacrifice 14+ races for the next cycle to win

i am talking in the moment. as it is now there is no chance of conventional victory ,well now with levi there is. but the 3 choices are the safer bet to me. whereas refuse has to great of a  cost., too much is sacrificed to get to that point,. there isn't much left to fight with

but that is just me



i just mean simply that in the moment there is no way to win conventionally, maybe with levi the chances go up but as bioware has it , you lose most of your forces getiting the crucible there, only option is to use it, or lose

Modifié par ghost9191, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:54 .

[Hey]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

Because hes got you by the "b's".  Theres no reason to lie.

The button would kill him. He has every reason to lie. I'm not seeing how telling you which button will kill him would have you by the 'b's'.

It would be easier for him to not wake you up and let you pick 1 of three.  Unless hes playing a shell game.
Unless he thinks the colors are a dead give away 

[N7 Lisbeth]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

I honestly think the paragon speech to the crew before the beam rush was rather good. I was pumped and ready to kill the Reapers, be "big goddamn heroes", and save the galaxy. But no...

Obligatory!


Mal: "What does that make us?"
Zoey: "Big damn heroes, sir."

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 02 septembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[ZIPO396]

For a Shepard going into it without knowing the outcomes I imagine it's hope. Hope that s/he has done enough to defeat the Reapers without having to step out on a shaky limb and trust an AI that has already admitted in a round about way that it suffers from circular logic.

For a Shepard that is psychic and knows what's gonna happen it seems to be a general act of defiance.

[The Twilight God]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

And Shepard would know this how?

The issue isn't that the Catalyst is lying, its that there's no way Shepard knows its telling the truth without metagaming.

Shot tubes. Crucible still not firing? Call EDI.

[ghost9191]

There's is no place for your logic on BSN ^^

joke

[GreyLycanTrope]

I picked Refuse unintentionally when I shot the kid, trouble is I can't seem to stop wanting to shoot the kid...

[The Twilight God]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

I'd say that's pretty much an FU to the Catalyst. Pity the galaxy couldn't follow it up and have the Normandy pick up Shepard then go bananas on the Reapers.

No, Refuse is pretty much giving it exactly what it wanted. A continuation of the cycle.

The ony FU Starbinger option is Destroy which kills them and completely ends their plans.

[Ratimir]

Because every other option validates the holo-ament's 'logic'.

Because I refuse to become a Reaper.

Because "A coward dies a million times, a free man dies just once."

Because the Crucible is clearly a Reaper trap.

Because we can win, despite the bullsh*t so many of you idiots blindly accept.

Because it's the only way Shepard can act like Shepard.

It's the only choice that belongs in the Mass Effect series.

"I fight for freedom. Mine, and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

Why are you even asking this silly question when Shepard has already answered it?

[D24O]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I picked Refuse unintentionally when I shot the kid, trouble is I can't seem to stop wanting to shoot the kid...

lol

[GreyLycanTrope]

D24O wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

I picked Refuse unintentionally when I shot the kid, trouble is I can't seem to stop wanting to shoot the kid...

lol

Shep turns into Buck Rogers

[D24O]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Shep turns into Buck Rogers

Now that would be an ending.