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[Jackums]

The Twilight God wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Congratulations! In your failed attempt to "die free on your own terms" you ensure the Geth lose their freedom and later be compelled to enslave and/or destroy other species in the next cycle. Now, not only will the Geth as we know them perish, so does every other space-faring race in the galaxy because Shepard couldn't bear to make a necessary sacrifice.

If Shepard utilizes the Crucible to destroy the Reapers the collateral damage is as follows:

1. The Geth perish

If Shepard chooses "freedom" the devastation is as follows:

1. The Geth perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
2. Humanity perishes or is enslaved in reaper form.
3. The Asari perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
4. The Turians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
5. The Salarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
6. The Quarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
7. The Krogan perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
8. The Volus perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
9. The Elcor perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
10. The Hanar perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
11. The Drell perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
12. The Batarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
13. The Rachni perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
14. The Vorcha perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
15. Not to mention any other space-faring species who aren't shown in game.

Refuse is the ultimate betrayal.

This.

But I cut the end part off about Control and Synthesis meaning you're "susceptible to Reaper influence". That's headcanon.

[The Twilight God]

Ratimir wrote...

Because every other option validates the holo-ament's 'logic'.

So destroying it and the Reapers and letting us make our own choices validates its logic?

Ratimir wrote...

Because the Crucible is clearly a Reaper trap.

More likely a Leviathan trap.

The Twilight God wrote...

The Crucible accomplishes the Leviathans immediate goals. It aims to eliminate all synthetics in the galaxy, eliminating direct resistance to any play they make to regain their former glory. It destroys the relay network, putting organics at a logistical disadvantage. Recall that the relay network was created after the Leviathans were overthrown for the benefit of up-and-coming organics. Leviathan states, " It directed the Reapers to create the mass relays--to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency." If this is the case, and the mass relays are a Intelligence technology it stands to reason that the Leviathans' galaxy spanning empire utilized a different means of travel. Something akin to the hyper drive technology of the Star Wars universe. And most importantly it will be difficult for organic races to fight an enemy that can forcefully take control of an opposing force in a relatively short time. It will require both synthetics and organics to fight a effective war against them. Organics to breach their defenses and eliminate them. Synthetics to get close enough to engage them.

I hypothesize that the Leviathans have been using races within each cycle to construct the Crucible. It is a double edged sword. You eliminate the Reapers, however you make way for the Leviathans. The fact that the Leviathans do not reveal themselves and instruct organics to build the Crucible prior to the harvest is that they want to cycles' races weakened and exhausted when the weapon is deployed. It's also possible that another race came up with the original design and the Leviathans are the ones who instigate the adaptation which utilizes the Citadel.

"Over the cycles the thrall races were controlled, removing traces of our existence as we directed them to."

Note that Leviathan says "cycles" - plural. A cycle encompasses all the space faring races of an era. This indicates that they have been actively involved in the affairs of organics in numerous cycles after the Intelligence "betrayed" them and went on the harvest the advanced races of that time.

Ratimir wrote...

Because we can win, despite the bullsh*t so many of you idiots blindly accept.

Yeah, because Admiral Hackett, the guy who is actually fighting the war, is lying to us.

Ratimir wrote...

"I fight for freedom. Mine, and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

Why are you even asking this silly question when Shepard has already answered it?

Because the "speech" is nonsense.

The Twilight God wrote...

Before capitulating to the Reapers' preferred outcome, Shepard has a short dialogue that is both contrary to his situation and nonsensical.

Shepard says, "No, I'm going to end this war on my terms."
The Catalyst replies, "Then you will die knowing you have failed to save everything you have fought for."
Shepard retorts, "I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

"I die knowing I did everything " to stop the Reapers? Everything except actually stopping the Reapers. The means to put an end to the Reaper threat is right in front of Shepard. Instead, Shepard allows the Reapers to choose his fate and every other organics' fate. "Freedom" isn't even an issue. Shepard is free as far as he knows. So exactly how does destroying the Reapers strip him of his freedom? Exactly, it doesn't. But Shepard isn't free. Quite the opposite. He is under the control of the Reapers, just as The Illusive Man before him. Unless Shepard's "terms" are being harvested by the Reapers the war cannot possibly end on his terms.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:40 .

[The Twilight God]

JackumsD wrote...

But I cut the end part off about Control and Synthesis meaning you're "susceptible to Reaper influence". That's headcanon.

No, it's actually justified by the events, lore, dialog, etc. Control being anything but an indoctrinated choice is a narrative and thematical nigh impossible outcome. But people are welcome to believe the Handwave, Bad Writting and Stupid Shepard Theories that allow them to believe the Reapers made a device whose purpose is to give a single mind control of them (trillions of minds).

Modifié par The Twilight God, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:51 .

[Foolsfolly]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

The_Other_M wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why? That's pretty much making Shepard commit suicide. Bioware shouldn't of made the Refuse option. It just wasted resources. The only reason why Refuse might be a good option is if you can defeat the Reaper conventionally.

Self-determination.

The Reapers offer three choices two of which have either the Reapers or Shepard extending their will over all lifeforms in the galaxy. The third option kills the Reapers at the cost of the emergant life of geth and EDI both of which having co-existence with organics disproves the Reapers ascertion that organics and synthetics must always war.

So all those are garbage.

And in the moment Shepard can say so and if this cycle wins or loses it'll be humanity, turians, quarian, geth, rachni, asari, salarans, krogan, vorcha, elcor, hanar, and drell who faced this threat of their own volition without mind control or magic or new DNAs. They fought and died because they were free and their working together disproves the Reapers entire meaning.

That's why you should have the option to refuse. Why should Shepard get so far and then bow to the whims of a Reaper anyway?

The two biggest mistakes BioWare did was not making victory possible through Refusal and having Shepard say "I can't make this decision" instead of something like "I won't make your choices."

^^THIS, good god, THIS^^

He actually does say that somewhat..

"I can't make that decision, I wont. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's, I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you, and I'll die free."

I'd say that's pretty much an FU to the Catalyst. Pity the galaxy couldn't follow it up and have the Normandy pick up Shepard then go bananas on the Reapers.

The line that I was speaking of (I YouTubed to get the exact wording because I've done this ending once and the line left a bad taste in my mouth) is:

"You're asking me to change everything... everyone. I can't make that decision. I won't."

It makes Shepard sound weak and indecisive. Shepard soon after is gungho about the Refusal ending but damn do I hate that line. Granted I seem to have hated that line so hotly that I totally forgot the very next sentence is "I won't."

First impressions are everything, eh?

[movieguyabw]

Eh, all the endings have that whole "Why would you choose this?!" stigma attached to them. It comes down to personal preference, and your interpretation on what each decision stands for, and what your Shepard stands for. I'm sure would argue that it's a deep philosophical quandry; and this is the reason it's "art" - but way I look at it, it's just very shoddy writing. It'd be one thing if we were picking out what we found to be an ideal ending, but the truth is, we're scraping from the bottom of the barrel to find the *least bad* ending. Sure, some of us get lucky with our Shepards, and can look at the endings from an angle, and wind up with a singular "golden" ending (I, personally found this for my Paragon Shepard who chose Control) but the reality seems to be that these occurrences are few and far between.

We shouldn't be wasting our time arguing "Why would you pick this terrible ending?!" what makes each ending so good to some and so horrible to others are as varied as each one of us - and as each one of our Shepards. Personally, I'd never choose Synthesis, unless I decided to Roleplay as a fully indoctrinated Shepard. This doesn't mean that I go around trying to start flame wars with people who have chosen Synthesis, or those who say it's the best of the endings. That's their opinion.

[Applepie_Svk]

ZeCollectorDestroya wrote...

I've seen some people supporting the Refuse option. Why? That's pretty much making Shepard commit suicide. Bioware shouldn't of made the Refuse option. It just wasted resources. The only reason why Refuse might be a good option is if you can defeat the Reaper conventionally.

BioWare shouldn´t make this options at first time:

- I have refused their art



- I have refused their colors



- I have refused their flawed logic



- I have refused to believe them any longer



- I have refused to support them any longer til I will see change of attitude



- I have refused to break a moral and nature laws only in order to please starchild

 
Are we clear ?

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 02 septembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[The Twilight God]

movieguyabw wrote...

Eh, all the endings have that whole "Why would you choose this?!" stigma attached to them. It comes down to personal preference, and your interpretation on what each decision stands for, and what your Shepard stands for. I'm sure would argue that it's a deep philosophical quandry; and this is the reason it's "art" - but way I look at it, it's just very shoddy writing. It'd be one thing if we were picking out what we found to be an ideal ending, but the truth is, we're scraping from the bottom of the barrel to find the *least bad* ending. Sure, some of us get lucky with our Shepards, and can look at the endings from an angle, and wind up with a singular "golden" ending (I, personally found this for my Paragon Shepard who chose Control) but the reality seems to be that these occurrences are few and far between.

We shouldn't be wasting our time arguing "Why would you pick this terrible ending?!" what makes each ending so good to some and so horrible to others are as varied as each one of us - and as each one of our Shepards. Personally, I'd never choose Synthesis, unless I decided to Roleplay as a fully indoctrinated Shepard. This doesn't mean that I go around trying to start flame wars with people who have chosen Synthesis, or those who say it's the best of the endings. That's their opinion.

Refuse is objectively bad.

There is no rational argument for how it can be seen as good. Now people can make up reasons that contradict the story, events, dialog, etc., but those reasons exist outside of the game. The story dictates that refuse is bad and that the only reason for SHEPARD to pick it is because he wants everyone to be harvested or killed, consciousley or subconsciouly. And the only reason that would be is if he is indoctrinated.

[Foolsfolly]

The Twilight God wrote...

movieguyabw wrote...

Eh, all the endings have that whole "Why would you choose this?!" stigma attached to them. It comes down to personal preference, and your interpretation on what each decision stands for, and what your Shepard stands for. I'm sure would argue that it's a deep philosophical quandry; and this is the reason it's "art" - but way I look at it, it's just very shoddy writing. It'd be one thing if we were picking out what we found to be an ideal ending, but the truth is, we're scraping from the bottom of the barrel to find the *least bad* ending. Sure, some of us get lucky with our Shepards, and can look at the endings from an angle, and wind up with a singular "golden" ending (I, personally found this for my Paragon Shepard who chose Control) but the reality seems to be that these occurrences are few and far between.

We shouldn't be wasting our time arguing "Why would you pick this terrible ending?!" what makes each ending so good to some and so horrible to others are as varied as each one of us - and as each one of our Shepards. Personally, I'd never choose Synthesis, unless I decided to Roleplay as a fully indoctrinated Shepard. This doesn't mean that I go around trying to start flame wars with people who have chosen Synthesis, or those who say it's the best of the endings. That's their opinion.

Refuse is objectively bad.

There is no rational argument for how it can be seen as good. Now people can make up reasons that contradict the story, events, dialog, etc., but those reasons exist outside of the game. The story dictates that refuse is bad and that the only reason for SHEPARD to pick it is because he wants everyone to be harvested or killed, consciousley or subconsciouly. And the only reason that would be is if he is indoctrinated.

You refuse so you can fight and defeat the Reapers conventionally. This ends poorly for the universe.

But since we players are still arguing on wheter or not you could defeat the Reapers conventionally it's a valid role-playing choice.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Simple, because I'm not going to play by dungeon masters casey and walters' stupid rules. I walk out on the game. No, I won't make a choice, they're all retarded.

"CAN'T MAKE A CHOICE, HMMM?" WELL FINE. YOU LOSE. **** YOU TOO, CONNIVING EAGLE!"

"Good, because I don't care. This is a ****ty game, anyway."

-Shuts off Xbox-

[Rommel49]

The Twilight God wrote...

Yeah, because Admiral Hackett, the guy who is actually fighting the war, is lying to us.

As I've covered elsewhere, Hackett's contradicted multiple times, even by himself to an extent. The codex entry on Reaper Vulnerabilities states that defeating the Reapers is possible simply by virtue of the fact they've taken casualties. There's the quote from Legion: "With these upgrades, our fleet could retake Earth", I think it's a safe bet that Legion and the Geth have a decent grasp of what the Reapers are actually capable of, if the Rachnii queen from Noveria is saved, Hackett himself grudgingly admits that bringing the Rachnii into the fold was a good call on the basis that "they'd know a thing or two about waging a galactic war".

All of these things suggest, if not outright state, that winning is possible... without needing to pick one of Starkid's colors.

[The Twilight God]

Foolsfolly wrote...

You refuse so you can fight and defeat the Reapers conventionally. This ends poorly for the universe.

But since we players are still arguing on wheter or not you could defeat the Reapers conventionally it's a valid role-playing choice.

Shepard already knows this is not possible. He has no reason to think otherwise. It is NOT a valid roleplay choice.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419499

Modifié par The Twilight God, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:08 .

[D24O]

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard already knows this is not possible. He has no reason to think otherwise. It is NOT a valid roleplay choice.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419499

Why not. You plug in the microphone, and out pops the reaper boss saying he's the Catalyst. Some Shepards might be might suspicious at the timing of that. Some might take the risk, some might judge it to be a trap. People can play different roles than your Shepard.

[Foolsfolly]

The Twilight God wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

You refuse so you can fight and defeat the Reapers conventionally. This ends poorly for the universe.

But since we players are still arguing on wheter or not you could defeat the Reapers conventionally it's a valid role-playing choice.

Shepard already knows this is not possible. He has no reason to think otherwise. It is NOT a valid roleplay choice.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419499

How wonderful of you to decide how others should role-play their characters. Should we also always cure the genophage? Perhaps always get the geth and quarians to come together instead commiting genocide against one of them?

[ediskrad327]

because because f*ck all life on the Galaxy and 3 years of hard work trying to stop them. let's just let them win! you might as well just die in the Suicide mission to make it easier

[sistersafetypin]

SwobyJ wrote...

Because it's the Reaper God giving me my spectrum of decisions.

He can get out of my face kthnx. I'm mostly paragon, but I've never given a damn what Reapers of any shape or form said to me.

All of that

[.PHANTOM]

the reason i now a days pick destroy is by habit of shooting the biggest troll in the galaxy and not wanting to be handed victory on a stick, so yeah old habits die hard, but it doesn't really matter which ending you pick even refuse kills the reapers in 50k years, and as seeing that everyone will be dead by then as well really what is the point, dead now or dead later makes no difference.

[Foolsfolly]

ediskrad327 wrote...

because because f*ck all life on the Galaxy and 3 years of hard work trying to stop them. let's just let them win! you might as well just die in the Suicide mission to make it easier

If we don't have a chance to win why are the Reapers scared enough to offer us a choice instead of wiping us out?

All that "you're beneath us" "you're nothing" talk disappeared and now they're willing to negoiate.

[The Twilight God]

Rommel49 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Yeah, because Admiral Hackett, the guy who is actually fighting the war, is lying to us.

As I've covered elsewhere, Hackett's contradicted multiple times, even by himself to an extent. The codex entry on Reaper Vulnerabilities states that defeating the Reapers is possible simply by virtue of the fact they've taken casualties. There's the quote from Legion: "With these upgrades, our fleet could retake Earth", I think it's a safe bet that Legion and the Geth have a decent grasp of what the Reapers are actually capable of, if the Rachnii queen from Noveria is saved, Hackett himself grudgingly admits that bringing the Rachnii into the fold was a good call on the basis that "they'd know a thing or two about waging a galactic war".

All of these things suggest, if not outright state, that winning is possible... without needing to pick one of Starkid's colors.

Oh, now the geth can take on the Reapers? You sound like a nutter. LEgion said they could help and they can help. But the whole point of the fleets were a distraction to get the Crucible to the Citadel. Nothing more. Hackett says that they can't protect it for long. 

At the end, as the Crucible fires we see some pretty beat up reaper ships floating around. So what? Cuba could conceivable sink a U.S. warship. That doesn't mean they can conceivably win a conventional war against the U.S. The Vol Protectorate could conceivable down a Turian dreadnaught. That doesn't mean they can win a war against the Heirachy conventionally. Oh, 4 allied dreadnaughts can possibly take out a single reaper dreadnaught. While one repaer destroyer can take out an allied dreadnaught. We took everything we had to Earth and it wasn't enough against just those reapers. Meanwhile the entire galaxy map is filled with Reapers. We are outgunned and outnumbered. Get a clue.

Admiral Hackett is fighting the war and he says it is unwinnable. Who are you, who have no clue what he's been up against, to claim he's wrong?

Modifié par The Twilight God, 02 septembre 2012 - 06:35 .

[ediskrad327]

Foolsfolly wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

because because f*ck all life on the Galaxy and 3 years of hard work trying to stop them. let's just let them win! you might as well just die in the Suicide mission to make it easier

If we don't have a chance to win why are the Reapers scared enough to offer us a choice instead of wiping us out?

All that "you're beneath us" "you're nothing" talk disappeared and now they're willing to negoiate.

please if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally they would have been defeated Cycles ago. the Crucible changed the Catalyst on a very convenient matter

[The Twilight God]

D24O wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard already knows this is not possible. He has no reason to think otherwise. It is NOT a valid roleplay choice.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419499

Why not. You plug in the microphone, and out pops the reaper boss saying he's the Catalyst. Some Shepards might be might suspicious at the timing of that. Some might take the risk, some might judge it to be a trap. People can play different roles than your Shepard.

Players can make up situations, but none of these situations are valid based on the story of Mass Effect 3. Shepard KNOWS conventional victory is not possible. No matter how much you, the player, choose to ignore this it is fact nonetheless. To not use the Crucible is to condemn everyone to reaperhood or death. It is a the ultimate betrayal. Shepard betrays his lover, his friends, his crew, humanity and every species he rallied together to confront the Reapers at Earth. All these beings came together, followed him into hell and he hung them all out to dry. Every sacrifice made, every life given to provide a future for their children - all of it - was rendered null and void by Shepard's act of betrayal.

[Foolsfolly]

ediskrad327 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

because because f*ck all life on the Galaxy and 3 years of hard work trying to stop them. let's just let them win! you might as well just die in the Suicide mission to make it easier

If we don't have a chance to win why are the Reapers scared enough to offer us a choice instead of wiping us out?

All that "you're beneath us" "you're nothing" talk disappeared and now they're willing to negoiate.

please if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally they would have been defeated Cycles ago. the Crucible changed the Catalyst on a very convenient matter

We know exactly how they attacked in previous cycles and it's nothing like it is in this cycle.

They used indoctrinated agents, infiltrated the Citadel, shut off the Relays, used the information on the Citadel to locate all worlds and colonies, then systematically invaded one system at time. Using brute force on the isolated and completely caught off-guard worlds. And even at this disadvantage it took hundreds of years to defeat the Prothean Empire.

[The Twilight God]

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

You refuse so you can fight and defeat the Reapers conventionally. This ends poorly for the universe.

But since we players are still arguing on wheter or not you could defeat the Reapers conventionally it's a valid role-playing choice.

Shepard already knows this is not possible. He has no reason to think otherwise. It is NOT a valid roleplay choice.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419499

How wonderful of you to decide how others should role-play their characters. Should we also always cure the genophage? Perhaps always get the geth and quarians to come together instead commiting genocide against one of them?

You can't legitimately roleplay something that does not exist in the game. That's like roleplaying Shepard is a turian who has had extensive plastic surgery. You can go that route, but it isn't validated within the context of ME's story. I'm not telling you what you can or cannot think, but I can tell you what is and is not represented by ME3's story.

If you have to step outside the story of ME3 to attempt to validate Refuse then you cannot validate it.

[ediskrad327]

Foolsfolly wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

because because f*ck all life on the Galaxy and 3 years of hard work trying to stop them. let's just let them win! you might as well just die in the Suicide mission to make it easier

If we don't have a chance to win why are the Reapers scared enough to offer us a choice instead of wiping us out?

All that "you're beneath us" "you're nothing" talk disappeared and now they're willing to negoiate.

please if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally they would have been defeated Cycles ago. the Crucible changed the Catalyst on a very convenient matter

We know exactly how they attacked in previous cycles and it's nothing like it is in this cycle.

They used indoctrinated agents, infiltrated the Citadel, shut off the Relays, used the information on the Citadel to locate all worlds and colonies, then systematically invaded one system at time. Using brute force on the isolated and completely caught off-guard worlds. And even at this disadvantage it took hundreds of years to defeat the Prothean Empire.

still though knowing the power of Sovereign a SINGLE reaper should be enough to know that there is no chance against THOUSANDS of Sovereigns

[D24O]

The Twilight God wrote...

Players can make up situations, but none of these situations are valid based on the story of Mass Effect 3. Shepard KNOWS conventional victory is not possible. No matter how much you, the player, choose to ignore this it is fact nonetheless. To not use the Crucible is to condemn everyone to reaperhood or death. It is a the ultimate betrayal. Shepard betrays his lover, his friends, his crew, humanity and every species he rallied together to confront the Reapers at Earth. All these beings came together, followed him into hell and he hung them all out to dry. Every sacrifice made, every life given to provide a future for their children - all of it - was rendered null and void by Shepard's act of betrayal.

The point I am trying to get across is that from a RP perspective, it could be a trap. You plug the Crucible in and the Catalyst, who is essentially the leader of your enemy, comes out and tells you about the choices. The timing of this, for some roleplayers, could be more than a coincidence, and thus that Shepard would rather this cycle go out fighting rather than possibly play into a reaper trap. We have no idea what this f***ing machine we spent all our time on even does, Mr. Suspicious Shepard could just say F*** this and not take the chance, while Mr. Doesn't Care Shepard will make a choice because he figures why not. People can play differnet ways.

[The Twilight God]

Foolsfolly wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

because because f*ck all life on the Galaxy and 3 years of hard work trying to stop them. let's just let them win! you might as well just die in the Suicide mission to make it easier

If we don't have a chance to win why are the Reapers scared enough to offer us a choice instead of wiping us out?

All that "you're beneath us" "you're nothing" talk disappeared and now they're willing to negoiate.

Yeah.. because you are using a unconventional method. You don't have them by the balls because your fleet is so great and awesome. It's because of the Crucible. If you dally for too long they break through and destroy the Crucible. Yeah, your awesome fleet is soooo scary.