222 réponses à ce sujet

[Jamesui]

I've made the argument enough times, so I'll give the shortened version:

Pretend, for a moment, that you don't actually trust the starbrat. Considering its actions over the past three years and its origin, I don't find this too much to ask. Now think about whether its offered choices will actually be to your benefit.

Refuse can be seen as a combination of refusing to hand the reigns of the crucible over to the hive-mind leader of your enemy and resolving to at least do as much damage as possible to the reapers so the next cycle has it easier.

Remember, Leviathan confirms only a handful of new Reapers per cycle, and we know our fleets have destroyed a dozen or so /Capital/ ships before the final battle, even, and we've taken measures to make sure our successor cycles have more forewarning.

[Ratimir]

The Twilight God wrote...

Ratimir wrote...

Because every other option validates the holo-ament's 'logic'.

So destroying it and the Reapers and letting us make our own choices validates its logic?

It endorses the approach of genocide of the innocent as an acceptable means to an end. It supports the 'dur, synthetics is bad' mindset. It accepts the inevitability of synthetic omnicide. It endorses the view that synthetic life is somehow 'less worthy' than biological life. So yeah.

The Twilight God wrote...

Ratimir wrote...

Because the Crucible is clearly a Reaper trap.

More likely a Leviathan trap.

There's no leviathans in my game. I'll take your word for it.

The Twilight God wrote...

Ratimir wrote...

Because we can win, despite the bullsh*t so many of you idiots blindly accept.

Yeah, because Admiral Hackett, the guy who is actually fighting the war, is lying to us.

Or, you know, wrong.

"This
indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons,
and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated." - The Codex: Reaper
Vulnerabilities

"Allied Forces holding steady; Winning Key locations" - The (apparently objective) title screen at high galactic readiness

And, of course, Shepard's entire track record of doing the 'impossible'.

The Twilight God wrote...

Ratimir wrote...

"I
fight for freedom. Mine, and everyone's. I fight for the right to
choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did
everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

Why are you even asking this silly question when Shepard has already answered it?

Because the "speech" is nonsense.

The Twilight God wrote...

Before
capitulating to the Reapers' preferred outcome, Shepard has a short
dialogue that is both contrary to his situation and nonsensical.

Shepard says, "No, I'm going to end this war on my terms."
The Catalyst replies, "Then you will die knowing you have failed to save everything you have fought for."
Shepard
retorts, "I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the
right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did
everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

"I die knowing I did everything
" to stop the Reapers? Everything except actually stopping the Reapers.
The means to put an end to the Reaper threat is right in front of
Shepard. Instead, Shepard allows the Reapers to choose his fate and
every other organics' fate. "Freedom" isn't even an issue. Shepard is
free as far as he knows. So exactly how does destroying the Reapers
strip him of his freedom? Exactly, it doesn't. But Shepard isn't free.
Quite the opposite. He is under the control of the Reapers, just as The
Illusive Man before him. Unless Shepard's "terms" are being harvested by
the Reapers the war cannot possibly end on his terms.

"I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the
right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did
everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

Everyone's. Not just organics.

"I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the
right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did
everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

My freedom to not commit genocide on the innocent geth. My freedom to not betray my friends and allies.
"I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the
right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did
everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

Everything viable. Mindlessly accepting the nonsensical ramblings of the Reaper king is not a viable option.

My only issue with that speech is that BioWare didn't actually allow us to do everything, because they didn't allow us to explain to the Catalyst in excruciating detail exactly why it's a f*cking idiot.

[The Twilight God]

Foolsfolly wrote...

We know exactly how they attacked in previous cycles and it's nothing like it is in this cycle.

They used indoctrinated agents, infiltrated the Citadel, shut off the Relays, used the information on the Citadel to locate all worlds and colonies, then systematically invaded one system at time. Using brute force on the isolated and completely caught off-guard worlds. And even at this disadvantage it took hundreds of years to defeat the Prothean Empire.

The protheans obviously found a way to reactivate the relays because Javik claims to have had a ship and traveled all over the place during the war.

[Foolsfolly]

ediskrad327 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

because because f*ck all life on the Galaxy and 3 years of hard work trying to stop them. let's just let them win! you might as well just die in the Suicide mission to make it easier

If we don't have a chance to win why are the Reapers scared enough to offer us a choice instead of wiping us out?

All that "you're beneath us" "you're nothing" talk disappeared and now they're willing to negoiate.

please if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally they would have been defeated Cycles ago. the Crucible changed the Catalyst on a very convenient matter

We know exactly how they attacked in previous cycles and it's nothing like it is in this cycle.

They used indoctrinated agents, infiltrated the Citadel, shut off the Relays, used the information on the Citadel to locate all worlds and colonies, then systematically invaded one system at time. Using brute force on the isolated and completely caught off-guard worlds. And even at this disadvantage it took hundreds of years to defeat the Prothean Empire.

still though knowing the power of Sovereign a SINGLE reaper should be enough to know that there is no chance against THOUSANDS of Sovereigns

It took out what 6 ships? It crashed through a turian ship and took out a handful of Alliance ships. All other damage was caused by the geth fleet.

A fleet we can own.

[Foolsfolly]

The Twilight God wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

We know exactly how they attacked in previous cycles and it's nothing like it is in this cycle.

They used indoctrinated agents, infiltrated the Citadel, shut off the Relays, used the information on the Citadel to locate all worlds and colonies, then systematically invaded one system at time. Using brute force on the isolated and completely caught off-guard worlds. And even at this disadvantage it took hundreds of years to defeat the Prothean Empire.

The protheans obviously found a way to reactivate the relays because Javik claims to have had a ship and traveled all over the place during the war.

It's called a retcon. Mass Effect 3's plot works entirely because of them. Reapers used to be stronger than they're shown in ME3 too. Sovie ran through a turian ship and took bombardment like a champ. In cut scenes you see a few mass accellerator rounds break up Reapers.

And then there's the quarian fleet bombardment, the cain, and those thannix missiles which all eat through Reapers like they're made of tissue paper.

[Jaron Oberyn]

D24O wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard already knows this is not possible. He has no reason to think otherwise. It is NOT a valid roleplay choice.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419499

Why not. You plug in the microphone, and out pops the reaper boss saying he's the Catalyst. Some Shepards might be might suspicious at the timing of that. Some might take the risk, some might judge it to be a trap. People can play different roles than your Shepard.

This. I find it amusing that people act as if there's one roleplaying option. Yeah there's more auto dialogue, but there's still lots of options to roleplay different characters. Just because it's something your Shepard wouldn't do doesn't mean it's something someone else's wouldn't either. 

[ediskrad327]

Foolsfolly wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

ediskrad327 wrote...

because because f*ck all life on the Galaxy and 3 years of hard work trying to stop them. let's just let them win! you might as well just die in the Suicide mission to make it easier

If we don't have a chance to win why are the Reapers scared enough to offer us a choice instead of wiping us out?

All that "you're beneath us" "you're nothing" talk disappeared and now they're willing to negoiate.

please if the Reapers could be defeated conventionally they would have been defeated Cycles ago. the Crucible changed the Catalyst on a very convenient matter

We know exactly how they attacked in previous cycles and it's nothing like it is in this cycle.

They used indoctrinated agents, infiltrated the Citadel, shut off the Relays, used the information on the Citadel to locate all worlds and colonies, then systematically invaded one system at time. Using brute force on the isolated and completely caught off-guard worlds. And even at this disadvantage it took hundreds of years to defeat the Prothean Empire.

still though knowing the power of Sovereign a SINGLE reaper should be enough to know that there is no chance against THOUSANDS of Sovereigns

It took out what 6 ships? It crashed through a turian ship and took out a handful of Alliance ships. All other damage was caused by the geth fleet.

A fleet we can own.

a fleet that means nothing compared to the Reaper fleet

[The Twilight God]

D24O wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Players can make up situations, but none of these situations are valid based on the story of Mass Effect 3. Shepard KNOWS conventional victory is not possible. No matter how much you, the player, choose to ignore this it is fact nonetheless. To not use the Crucible is to condemn everyone to reaperhood or death. It is a the ultimate betrayal. Shepard betrays his lover, his friends, his crew, humanity and every species he rallied together to confront the Reapers at Earth. All these beings came together, followed him into hell and he hung them all out to dry. Every sacrifice made, every life given to provide a future for their children - all of it - was rendered null and void by Shepard's act of betrayal.

The point I am trying to get across is that from a RP perspective, it could be a trap. You plug the Crucible in and the Catalyst, who is essentially the leader of your enemy, comes out and tells you about the choices. The timing of this, for some roleplayers, could be more than a coincidence, and thus that Shepard would rather this cycle go out fighting rather than possibly play into a reaper trap. We have no idea what this f***ing machine we spent all our time on even does, Mr. Suspicious Shepard could just say F*** this and not take the chance, while Mr. Doesn't Care Shepard will make a choice because he figures why not. People can play differnet ways.

Reaper trap?
Go out fighitng?

First of all, we know what it will do: Destroy the Reapers. That's what you fought your way into the Citadel to do. If anything, I think it's more of a Leviathan Trap.
 
The Reapers want to Harvest organic life. They are going to make a Reaper in the Citadel. Refuse allows them to do just that. They win. They don't need any trap. The citadel was a trap and yet they still came and they still kicked our asses. Without the Crucible they win.
 
You are not applying any critical thinking skills to the situation. If destroying a power junction (tubes) is a trap, why not just shoot it themselves? How can that be a trap? A trap for who? You can either use a reaper device (which has never gone well for anyone) or cause harm to a reaper device by blowing part of it away.

The only "trap" is Control and Synthesis. And both only make sense if Shepard is indoctrinated into making those choices. The supposed Reaper Commander saying killing myself is a good idea is just as stupid as picking Refuse. The only narratively sound explaination is indoctrination.

[Foolsfolly]

a fleet that means nothing compared to the Reaper fleet

How many Reapers are there? Sovereign took down a handful of ships before biting it. Couldn't be a thousand. We know cycles used to take longer to happen, we know other cycles have killed Reapers, we've personally seen a few Reapers die, we know of a colony that took out multiple Reapers when they nuked themselves (goddamn heroes they are).

They're not unstoppable. Hell in the Earth battle there's only a few dozen visible. No more than 50. So few that Harbinger himself had to fly down to Earth to stop the Spearhead assault on the Citadel. They were being waved!

Add to it that now you have Leviathans which can kill Reapers with their mind and take over Reaper forces.

Where is this a hopeless fight?

[The Twilight God]

Jamesui wrote...

I've made the argument enough times, so I'll give the shortened version:

Pretend, for a moment, that you don't actually trust the starbrat. Considering its actions over the past three years and its origin, I don't find this too much to ask. Now think about whether its offered choices will actually be to your benefit.

Refuse can be seen as a combination of refusing to hand the reigns of the crucible over to the hive-mind leader of your enemy and resolving to at least do as much damage as possible to the reapers so the next cycle has it easier.

Remember, Leviathan confirms only a handful of new Reapers per cycle, and we know our fleets have destroyed a dozen or so /Capital/ ships before the final battle, even, and we've taken measures to make sure our successor cycles have more forewarning.

No, the Reapers are harvesting Thessia, Tuchanka, Palaven, etc. Otherwise, they wouldn't be waging a ground fight. They'd just glass the whole planet and move on like they did Bekenstien. Leviathan is talking out of its ass.

Destroy is not a Starbinger option. It is what the Crucible does. To be skeptical of some glowing kid is not an excuse to give up and do nothing at all. Shoot tube. Nothing happens? Call EDI. I'd call EDI beforehand, but the game doesn't allow this.

The Twilight God wrote...

1. The Crucible docks, but is not doing anything.
2. The power junction is eliminated violently.
3. The Crucible arms itself and fires.
4. It is thus inferred that something was preventing the Crucible from firing while the power junction remained active.
5. The destruction of the power junction terminated whatever condition existed that prevented the Crucible from arming.
6. The power junction was either itself, or was powering, something that prevented the Crucible from firing.
7. In the absence of this suppressing condition the Crucible initiates the destruction of the Reapers without any direct interaction with the Crucible itself.
8. Conclusion #1: The Crucible's default function is to destroy synthetic life.
9. It has been confirmed in the very opening of this segment that the contraptions at eye level are NOT a part of the Crucible.
10. Upon the destruction of the power junction the beam running down the center of the chasm deactivates.
11. It can therefore be inferred that the power junction was either itself, or was powering, whatever it is that was generating the beam running down into the chasm.
12. The Crucible arms, sends a pulse into the Citadel and fires despite the absence of this beam.
13. In both Control and Synthesis the beam remains active as the Crucible's tip ignites.
14. Conclusion #2: The beam is not a function of the Crucible itself.

Given the above facts, the Crucible can in no way be dependent upon the contraption at eye level to function as it is designed to arm automatically and operates independently of the beam. Furthermore, throughout all this we have to remember that Shepard does not flip a switch or push a button. He destroys a component of a contraption that is NOT part of the Crucible.

[D24O]

The Twilight God wrote...
 
You are not applying any critical thinking skills to the situation. If destroying a power junction (tubes) is a trap, why not just shoot it themselves? How can that be a trap? A trap for who? You can either use a reaper device (which has never gone well for anyone) or cause harm to a reaper device by blowing part of it away.

You are right, I am not really thinking about this because I don't care that much about the ending. I'm just trying to get people to stop being d***s to each other over inconcequential things, like which choice in a video game is least bad, but I suppose being on the BSN this long I should've learned that won't work. 

[Rommel49]

The Twilight God wrote...

Rommel49 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Yeah, because Admiral Hackett, the guy who is actually fighting the war, is lying to us.

As I've covered elsewhere, Hackett's contradicted multiple times, even by himself to an extent. The codex entry on Reaper Vulnerabilities states that defeating the Reapers is possible simply by virtue of the fact they've taken casualties. There's the quote from Legion: "With these upgrades, our fleet could retake Earth", I think it's a safe bet that Legion and the Geth have a decent grasp of what the Reapers are actually capable of, if the Rachnii queen from Noveria is saved, Hackett himself grudgingly admits that bringing the Rachnii into the fold was a good call on the basis that "they'd know a thing or two about waging a galactic war".

All of these things suggest, if not outright state, that winning is possible... without needing to pick one of Starkid's colors.

Oh, now the geth can take on the Reapers? You sound like a nutter. LEgion said they could help and they can help. But the whole point of the fleets were a distraction to get the Crucible to the Citadel. Nothing more. Hackett says that they can't protect it for long. 

At the end, as the Crucible fires we see some pretty beat up reaper ships floating around. So what? Cuba could conceivable sink a U.S. warship. That doesn't mean they can conceivably win a conventional war against the U.S. The Vol Protectorate could conceivable down a Turian dreadnaught. That doesn't mean they can win a war against the Heirachy conventionally. Oh, 4 alied dreadnaughts can possibly take out a single reaper dreadnaught. While one repaer destroyer and take out an allied dreadnaught. We took everything we had to earth and it wasn't enough against just those reapers. Meanwhile the entire galaxy map is filled with Reapers. We are outgunned and outnumbered. Get a clue.

Admiral Hackett is fighting the war and he says it is unwinnable. Who are you, who have no clue what he's been up against, to claim he's wrong?

Reading comprehension and non-strawmen are good for you.

Were all of the Reapers at Earth? No. The fact remains we have the exact quote, Legion states it directly: "Our fleet could retake Earth", inserting words that aren't there doesn't reflect badly on anyone except you, likewise for trying to argue against something I never said.

Again, it's implied or stated directly multiple times (including the codex) that victory over the Reapers was possible, simply by virtue of the fact that they've taken casualties, and those sources outnumber Hackett by a fair margin, or have more knowledge of Reaper capabilities than he does. That fact remains. Period.

It's an implied (if not bluntly stated) theme throughout the series. Particularly given the fact the Reapers do things like operate through puppets, keep the organic races isolated from another by messing with the relay network (and why it never occurred to anybody to use the Reaper's own strategy against them in this regard is beyond me), etc. Hell, why do you think Reapers lock down missile silos? There's a reason: in our own actual, factual history Humanity's detonated single weapons with enough power to kill a Reaper a few hundred times over going by the stated math (Four Dreadnoughts combined dish out 150 kilotons, the Tsar Bomba detonated in the 1960's had a yield of 50 Megatons, or 50,000 kilotons). Realistically, victory without picking a color would simply be a matter of opening those silos back up or replacing the weapons within them.

Modifié par Rommel49, 02 septembre 2012 - 07:14 .

[The Twilight God]

Ratimir wrote...

It endorses the approach of genocide of the innocent as an acceptable means to an end. It supports the 'dur, synthetics is bad' mindset. It accepts the inevitability of synthetic omnicide. It endorses the view that synthetic life is somehow 'less worthy' than biological life. So yeah.

Sorry, but your logic is alittle flawed there. As Refuse endorses the Harvest and makes Shepard an accomplice to the death of trillions (including the Geth. Oops!!)

The Twilight God wrote...

If Shepard utilizes the Crucible to destroy the Reapers the collateral damage is as follows:

1. The Geth perish (maybe)

If Shepard chooses "freedom" the devastation is as follows:

1. The Geth perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
2. Humanity perishes or is enslaved in reaper form.
3. The Asari perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
4. The Turians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
5. The Salarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
6. The Quarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
7. The Krogan perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
8. The Volus perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
9. The Elcor perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
10. The Hanar perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
11. The Drell perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
12. The Batarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
13. The Rachni perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
14. The Vorcha perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
15. Not to mention any other space-faring species who aren't shown in game.

Not to mention the fact that you do not know if the Geth die or not. They aren't traditional AI and therefore, the Crucible may not even be designed to target them as they are just software, not hardware (no quantum blue box, nothing to distiquish them form any other form of machinery). If the ships are still kicking then the Geth should be too.

Ratimir wrote...

Or, you know, wrong.

Well, I figure since he's the one actually fighting the war and losing, he knows what he's talking about. They ARE losing. It's not a matter of thinking they are losing. They ARE losing. Deal with it.

Ratimir wrote...

This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons,
and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated." - The Codex: Reaper
Vulnerabilities

"Allied Forces holding steady; Winning Key locations" - The (apparently objective) title screen at high galactic readiness

And, of course, Shepard's entire track record of doing the 'impossible'.

Shepard cannot win a war. He is one person. It does not matter what could theorhetically occur with theorhetical "right intelligence", "right weapons" and "right strategy". The fact is, regardless of intel or strategy, we don't have the "right weapons".

Ratimir wrote...

"I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the
right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did
everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

Everyone's. Not just organics.

"I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the
right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I die knowing I did
everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

First of all, Shepard's freedom will not be voided if he kills the Reapers so that is a nonsensical comment as I've already stated. Everyone actually gets their freedom and the ability to self-determinate by destroying the Reapers. So your whole point is ridiculous and nonsensical.

You forfeit the Geth's freedom in Refuse. Even worst they will probably become a new Reaper, a slave to the Intelligence's will, forced to Harvest the next cycle. You really should read the link.

The Twilight God wrote...

Another weak argument used by supporters of Refusal to justify their atrocity is that Shepard using the destroy function deprives the Geth of their freedom. This is an innately inaccurate assesment. Using Destroy deprives the Geth of their synthetic lives (and even this is up for debate as we never actually see the Geth, who are not tradtional AI, perish). Their freedom was deprived when they were being subjugated by the Rannoch Reaper. And their freedom will be deprived again when the Reapers convert them into a new reaper. Let's consider the nature of a reaper: An organic or synthetic species "ascended" to reaper form. In the case of organics, their organic intelligence is transmogrified into a synthetic intelligence. However, In the case of synthetic intelligences one can only surmise that they are transferred as is. Nearly every race that has ever been harvested has resisted the Reapers. And yet, it is now these same intelligences, that once fought the Reapers, who are now the very enemy they opposed. To be transformed into a reaper is therefore the violent removal of individual freedom. Regardless of what you think about the nature of organic minds converted to synthetic minds, reapers based on a synthetic race can be concluded to be the actual synthetic species harvested, as opposed to a facsimile. This is the "freedom" Refuse grants the Geth.

Congratulations! In your failed attempt to "die free on your own terms" you ensure the Geth lose their freedom and later be compelled to enslave and/or destroy other species in the next cycle. Now, not only will the Geth as we know them perish, so does every other space-faring race in the galaxy because Shepard couldn't bear to make a necessary sacrifice.

Scroll back up and read the list again, killer.

Ratimir wrote...

Everything viable. Mindlessly accepting the nonsensical ramblings of the Reaper king is not a viable option.

How is killing it, the Reapers and allowing people to self-determinate without Reapers breathing down their necks accepting its ramblings? You remove it from the equation. You completely ruin its plans, spoil its "solution". How in the hell is that validating its ramblings?

Modifié par The Twilight God, 02 septembre 2012 - 07:28 .

[The Twilight God]

Foolsfolly wrote...

It's called a retcon. Mass Effect 3's plot works entirely because of them. Reapers used to be stronger than they're shown in ME3 too. Sovie ran through a turian ship and took bombardment like a champ. In cut scenes you see a few mass accellerator rounds break up Reapers.

And then there's the quarian fleet bombardment, the cain, and those thannix missiles which all eat through Reapers like they're made of tissue paper.

I saw a fleet larger than any ever formed focusing on a few reapers. And not destroying them. The most damage we ever see is 1 dreadnaught lose a leg. Then proceed to blast the offending Cruiser to bits in 1 shot. And that's with better weapons than we had in the battle of the Citadel (i.e. thanix class weapons).

And it took how many Thanix missiles just to take out a destroyer? How many Quarian ships? And even with all those ships having to target one specific point at a specific moment. The hades cannon wasn't even a destroyer. It was a weaker class of ship. Tissue papper my ass.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 02 septembre 2012 - 07:35 .

[The Twilight God]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

D24O wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard already knows this is not possible. He has no reason to think otherwise. It is NOT a valid roleplay choice.

http://social.biowar...9372/1#13419499

Why not. You plug in the microphone, and out pops the reaper boss saying he's the Catalyst. Some Shepards might be might suspicious at the timing of that. Some might take the risk, some might judge it to be a trap. People can play different roles than your Shepard.

This. I find it amusing that people act as if there's one roleplaying option. Yeah there's more auto dialogue, but there's still lots of options to roleplay different characters. Just because it's something your Shepard wouldn't do doesn't mean it's something someone else's wouldn't either. 

Shepard KNOWS conventional victory is impossible. You the player can make up whatever you want, but the story dictates that conventional victory is impossoble. You cannot change this. Just like you can roleplay Shepard as being a turian with extensive plastic surgery, it doesn;t change the fact that Shepard is a human. Make up whatever you want and pretend, but the fact remains that Shepard cannot pick Refuse without knowing that it will lead to everyone's death. Again, you the player can makeup whatever scenario you want in your own mind but OBJECTIVELY speaking the story does not allow it.

[The Twilight God]

Rommel49 wrote...

Again, it's implied or stated directly multiple times (including the codex) that victory over the Reapers was possible, simply by virtue of the fact that they've taken casualties, and those sources outnumber Hackett by a fair margin, or have more knowledge of Reaper capabilities than he does. That fact remains. Period.

U.S forces took casualties in Iraq. I guess the Iraqi forces could have won and conquered the U.S. The ability to inflict casualties does not mean you can win a war. I'm not going to repeat this anymore because you are clearly in denial.

[Veneke]

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard KNOWS conventional victory is impossible. You the player can make up whatever you want, but the story dictates that conventional victory is impossoble. You cannot change this. Just like you can roleplay Shepard as being a turian with extensive plastic surgery, it doesn;t change the fact that Shepard is a human. Make up whatever you want and pretend, but the fact remains that Shepard cannot pick Refuse without knowing that it will lead to everyone's death. Again, you the player can makeup whatever scenario you want in your own mind but OBJECTIVELY speaking the story does not allow it.

Eh, no. Shepard was told (very recently in fact and at odds to everything said in the other games but whatever) that conventional victory is impossible. Pretty sure at some point that he's probably been told that uniting the galaxy was impossible too. The entire trilogy is largely based around a series of things that are inferred to be impossible and Shep manages to do them anyway.

You're right in that the story wouldn't allow you to roleplay Shep as a turian with extensive plastic surgery (well, at the very least it would be quite difficult to justify). However, that's rather different to the prospect of conventional victory. One, the surgery, is a matter of fact. The other, conventional victory, is a matter of probabilities. You can argue that it's less likely to win conventionally but it's impossible to know you cannot win conventionally. Some characters might think it's impossible but, as I said, plenty of characters have thought things were impossible over the course of the trilogy and Shep managed to accomplish these so-called impossible tasks. What makes this time so special?

Oh right, pretty colours...

[inko1nsiderate]

Because having Shepard say 'I'll die free' makes me feel like Teal'c from SG-1.

Shel kek nem ron!

A little more seriously.  If you feel really strongly about the moral issues involved in the other endings, then it is the most moral choice.  It is an outright rejection of everything the Catalyst stands for.  You will fight and you will die, but you are doing it on your own terms.  You were given an option to kill the Reapers, but the cost was too high, so you decided to fight.  This, in some sense, is a victory.  You have taken full control of your destiny, and even if the results look like every other failed cycle, you still rejected the Reapers and their Catalyst and the exitence of the problem they were meant to solve and you choose death instead.  You didn't die because the Reapers demanded it, you died because your took a moral stance and stood for everything you've ever fought for.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 02 septembre 2012 - 08:11 .

[The Twilight God]

Veneke wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard KNOWS conventional victory is impossible. You the player can make up whatever you want, but the story dictates that conventional victory is impossoble. You cannot change this. Just like you can roleplay Shepard as being a turian with extensive plastic surgery, it doesn;t change the fact that Shepard is a human. Make up whatever you want and pretend, but the fact remains that Shepard cannot pick Refuse without knowing that it will lead to everyone's death. Again, you the player can makeup whatever scenario you want in your own mind but OBJECTIVELY speaking the story does not allow it.

Eh, no. Shepard was told (very recently in fact and at odds to everything said in the other games but whatever) that conventional victory is impossible. Pretty sure at some point that he's probably been told that uniting the galaxy was impossible too. The entire trilogy is largely based around a series of things that are inferred to be impossible and Shep manages to do them anyway.

You're right in that the story wouldn't allow you to roleplay Shep as a turian with extensive plastic surgery (well, at the very least it would be quite difficult to justify). However, that's rather different to the prospect of conventional victory. One, the surgery, is a matter of fact. The other, conventional victory, is a matter of probabilities. You can argue that it's less likely to win conventionally but it's impossible to know you cannot win conventionally. Some characters might think it's impossible but, as I said, plenty of characters have thought things were impossible over the course of the trilogy and Shep managed to accomplish these so-called impossible tasks. What makes this time so special?

Oh right, pretty colours...

Shepard KNOWS conventional victory is impossible. Don't ****** in my ear and tell me it's raining. He has ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHATSOEVER to doubt Hackett or think that the fleets can take on the Reapers. None at all. Fact.

Conventional victory is even sillier than roleplaying as a turian. Conventional victory isn;t a matter of probabilities. IT's not happening. Period. We KNOW we can't win and Shepard is under no delusion to the contrary. Hackett IS losing. He doesn't THINK the war is being lost. He KNOWS it is. The turians don't think they are losing Palaven, they KNOW they are. It IS HAPPENING. No matter how much you ignore this fact, it won;t change these facts.

[Veneke]

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard KNOWS conventional victory is impossible. Don't ****** in my ear and tell me it's raining. He has ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHATSOEVER to doubt Hackett or think that the fleets can take on the Reapers. None at all. Fact.

Conventional victory is even sillier than roleplaying as a turian. Conventional victory isn;t a matter of probabilities. IT's not happening. Period. We KNOW we can't win and Shepard is under no delusion to the contrary. Hackett IS losing. He doesn't THINK the war is being lost. He KNOWS it is. The turians don't think they are losing Palaven, they KNOW they are. It IS HAPPENING. No matter how much you ignore this fact, it won;t change these facts.

I fear if you continue ranting I'm not going to reply to you.

No reason at all? Thanix cannon, which are not particularly large weapons, can take out a Reaper. We can take out the smaller variants with something as small as a hand cannon (a heavy weapon for infantry) or a well placed missile. We have the combined fleets of the entire galaxy at our disposal and loads more stuff that we spent about half the game collecting besides.

Against this, we have Adm. Hackett's line saying that we can't beat the Reapers conventionally. Really? Hackett is now clairvoyent is he? This isn't like the Iraq-US argument. Who knows how hard or easy it would be to beat the Reapers? Nobody, except maybe the fleet that took out Sovereign. And they didn't all have Thanix cannon did they?

Remember that Hackett and the Turians etc are all losing because they're conserving the fleet for the final push against the Reaper forces on Earth. It isn't a true reflection of how the battle is going. This was the plan - we fall back resisting as much as possible with as little as possible to assemble the combined might of the galaxy in one final push.

I'm not suggesting that it's an instant-win, I'm simply pointing out that conventional victory is not a 'not happening' thing aside from the fact that the writers won't allow it. There's nothing in the trilogy to suggest that conventional victory isn't possible, quite to the contrary, aside from Hackett. Which is little more than one inexperienced man's opinion on matters he hasn't had to deal with for the past 5 years. It's also a curiously defeatist and jarring opinion to hold but sure, let's just leave that one go.

[daecath]

IamDanThaMan wrote...

I dont care how bad you think the other options are, they are not.as bad as letting everyone die. Also, for those claiming the catalyst is lying, he is not. We see the results of each ending and they are just as he said.

Yes, and if you like meta-gaming that's fine.

I like playing as Shepard. I like taking on the role of someone who doesn't have the ability to see the future. Shepard doesn't know what the results of his actions will be. For that matter, neither does someone coming into the game fresh. From that point of view, who knows what the crucible could do.

You say that refuse is "letting everyone die". And yes, Shepard knows that that is a possible outcome. It always was. But what if the catalyst is just another reaper trap. What if it's technology that was planted for us to find, and instead of what the catalyst says, pushing any button would cause it to send out a mass indoctrination pulse through the relays, instantly indoctrinating everyone. Trillions of people mindlessly walking to their doom. Or it's an EMP which shuts down all technology more advanced than a light bulb. Hundreds of thousands of forces slowly freezing or suffocatting to death on ships stranded with no life support, thousands of injured patients dying slow agonizing deaths in hospitals that can no longer help them, etc. Or it's a wave that instantly liquifies organic matter. You don't need to wait for the reapers to harvest you, every living being in the galaxy turned to a puddle of goo in seconds. An energy wave that causes the same type of paralysis that we saw in ME2.

You say that refuse is "letting everyone die", but you only say that because you know that's how the game is written. But from the perspective of within the story, Shepard wouldn't know that, and from outside the story, the writers didn't have to write it that way. One person's opinion (Hackett's) doesn't make it true. The game itself says that conventional victory is possible. And as the circumstances changed (recruited the Krogan, recruited the Turians, recruited the Quarians, recruited the Geth, recruited the Salarians, etc.), the situation could have changed, with victory being more attainable.

From a certain point of view, not only is refuse the better option, it is literally the only possible option for victory. All you have to do is recognize that every other option is in some way cooperating with the enemy, and it becomes clear that that's a bad idea, and the only option left is to refuse.

[I am disappoint]

I think it is to skip the ****ty slideshow.
That's why I would pick it anyway and to beat the Reapers conventionally in the next cycle that defeats the Reapers.

[Ratimir]

The Twilight God wrote...

Veneke wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Shepard KNOWS conventional victory is impossible. You the player can make up whatever you want, but the story dictates that conventional victory is impossoble. You cannot change this. Just like you can roleplay Shepard as being a turian with extensive plastic surgery, it doesn;t change the fact that Shepard is a human. Make up whatever you want and pretend, but the fact remains that Shepard cannot pick Refuse without knowing that it will lead to everyone's death. Again, you the player can makeup whatever scenario you want in your own mind but OBJECTIVELY speaking the story does not allow it.

Eh, no. Shepard was told (very recently in fact and at odds to everything said in the other games but whatever) that conventional victory is impossible. Pretty sure at some point that he's probably been told that uniting the galaxy was impossible too. The entire trilogy is largely based around a series of things that are inferred to be impossible and Shep manages to do them anyway.

You're right in that the story wouldn't allow you to roleplay Shep as a turian with extensive plastic surgery (well, at the very least it would be quite difficult to justify). However, that's rather different to the prospect of conventional victory. One, the surgery, is a matter of fact. The other, conventional victory, is a matter of probabilities. You can argue that it's less likely to win conventionally but it's impossible to know you cannot win conventionally. Some characters might think it's impossible but, as I said, plenty of characters have thought things were impossible over the course of the trilogy and Shep managed to accomplish these so-called impossible tasks. What makes this time so special?

Oh right, pretty colours...

Shepard KNOWS conventional victory is impossible. Don't ****** in my ear and tell me it's raining. He has ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHATSOEVER to doubt Hackett or think that the fleets can take on the Reapers. None at all. Fact.

Conventional victory is even sillier than roleplaying as a turian. Conventional victory isn;t a matter of probabilities. IT's not happening. Period. We KNOW we can't win and Shepard is under no delusion to the contrary. Hackett IS losing. He doesn't THINK the war is being lost. He KNOWS it is. The turians don't think they are losing Palaven, they KNOW they are. It IS HAPPENING. No matter how much you ignore this fact, it won;t change these facts.

"Allied Forces holding steady; Winning Key locations"

[freyafolk]

Refuse is a poor choice, after-the-fact. In the moment it seems entirely reasonable given how poor the other choices are and an understandable distrust of the entity presenting them. Refuse only becomes a poor choice because Bioware decided not to allow an ending where it succeeds. Imagine if instead having 8,000 assets allowed for a conventional victory. I expect in that case most players would choose refuse.

At the time of decision-making Shepard doesn't know the outcome for certain unless he/she totally trusts the catalyst. The real question is why would players pick refuse on subsequent play-throughs?

Here I suspect there is a different narrative in play. Many who support refuse were likely unhappy with the original choices. Therefore the Starchild becomes Bioware saying 'You will learn to agree that this is a good ending' and the player is saying 'No. These choices (even with better explanation) are still ALL bad. I refuse to accept this ending.' Which, if you think about it, is quite reasonable too.

[Foolsfolly]

freyafolk wrote...


Refuse is a poor choice, after-the-fact. In the moment it seems entirely reasonable given how poor the other choices are and an understandable distrust of the entity presenting them. Refuse only becomes a poor choice because Bioware decided not to allow an ending where it succeeds. Imagine if instead having 8,000 assets allowed for a conventional victory. I expect in that case most players would choose refuse.

At the time of decision-making Shepard doesn't know the outcome for certain unless he/she totally trusts the catalyst. The real question is why would players pick refuse on subsequent play-throughs?

Here I suspect there is a different narrative in play. Many who support refuse were likely unhappy with the original choices. Therefore the Starchild becomes Bioware saying 'You will learn to agree that this is a good ending' and the player is saying 'No. These choices (even with better explanation) are still ALL bad. I refuse to accept this ending.' Which, if you think about it, is quite reasonable too.

If that were case no one would be having this discussion. The people saying you couldn't win conventionally would just always Refuse and win conventionally. Even if it meant the Normandy and her crew didn't survive the battle for Earth.

I mean why would ever do anything else?